A great man.

Discussion in 'Free Thoughts' started by BarbieGirl14, May 16, 2008.

  1. BarbieGirl14 Registered Senior Member

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    407
    A long long time ago there was a boy. He had lots of brothers and sisiters. His family was very religious.

    The boy's parents were very wealthy. They owned a business that made millions of dollars a year.

    The boy loved to have fun. Sometimes on the weekends he would travel around Europe drinking with his friends and having sex with girls. He was a little rebelious.

    When the boy was a young man, his father died. Him, and his brothers inherited the great company, and they were very rich. The young man did not spend his money for his own enjoyment as much as when he was younger.

    The boy was now a young man, and much more mature. He started to respect and believe deepy in his religion. So he started using his great ammounts of wealth to help others.

    The young man got married, and lived in a simple home. The home was not a luxery home like you would assume a rich young man would own. It was very simple. It had no AC, and no TV. The young man lived happily, and followed the path of religion with his family.

    The one day his land was invaded by an evil greedy enemy. He was not happy. He was very upset that his peacefull land was being invaded, and taken over by these enemy barbarians. They did nothing to provoke this, and the barbiarian enemy only invaded because of greed.

    The wealthy young man knew he had to do somthing to help his beloved country.

    He helped to fund many of the locals so that they could get weapons. He also funded training for these local people of his country.

    As the war went on, the young man was not happy. Though his money helped, the enemy barbians were too strong.

    Then one day a country from a far away land came to his aid. He was not very happy that a random country from a far away lond had came uninvited to fight his war. He did not resist though. He let them help.

    With the help of the far away land, the young man and his country fended off the evil, greedy barbarians. The young man had spent a lot of his money in order to help his country, but he did not mind. He was happy to be able to help.

    There was now a new problem though. The people from the far away lond refused to leave. The would not leave his country, and they polluted his great country with there corrupt beleifs, and forign culture. The young man wanted these people to leave. He wanted his land to be free again, unoccupied by any forign land.

    The forign land refused to leave though. They were arragant. The seen his country as small and weak. The did not take any of his words seriously.

    They began to interfere with his government. They were ruining his beloved land.

    The man, and his people became desperate. They wanted these forign invaders out. The would do anything. They would cross any line. They were willing to die for there land. They did not want there children to have to grow in a land under the occupation of a corrupt forign land.

    The wealthy man began to spend great ammounts of money to help to train and supply the local men who wanted to get these invaders out. The locals thought of him as hero. A man who cared more about his religion and country then he did his own life, and enjoyment. They respected this hero, and were willing to devote there life for there country. They were willing to take any sacrafice to protect there country.

    There technology was not good. There weapons were very primative. They were forced to go to extremes, blowing themselves up with the enemy. They were martyrs. The great, well respected man is believed to now live in the mountains, somewhere in the middle east.
     
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  3. Bells Staff Member

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    Firstly, what's a "sisister"?

    Secondly, I doubt anyone with half a brain would consider Bin Ladin to be a "great man". To some he might be, but to the majority, he is nothing but a murdering fool who cares nothing at all about human life.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2008
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  5. BarbieGirl14 Registered Senior Member

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    He cares nothing at all about life, yet has millions of people supporting him. Willing to die for him.

    He is a martyr to his people, and a barbarian to his enemies. Who's to say that we are correct?

    He gave up everything for his country and religion. What do we give up?
     
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  7. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    If so, then why did he go against his own religious teachings and kill others?
     
  8. BarbieGirl14 Registered Senior Member

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    His interpretation of the bible tells him that its ok to kill the non-believers.

    Why do you think there are so many souicide bombers. They are sure they are doing good for there good. They are under the impression that they will be rewarded in heaven with 40 vergins because of there ultimate sacrafice to there god.

    Tell me that is not belief.
     
  9. Challenger78 Valued Senior Member

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    You sure that the greed of the inhabitants and their own security didn't lead to the barbarian's invasion ?
    Your case could also describe a palestinian or an Iraqi.

    Although, no, It isn't just the barbarians fault, It's good to see you trying out empathy.
     
  10. Bells Staff Member

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    A "great man" does not have other people kill themselves and others for his own personal cause. A "great man" should never call for or ask others to become martyrs for his own personal cause.

    Bible?

    The "great man" has obviously taken his own religious text and warped it to suit his needs and desires. And that does not make him a "great man".

    Firstly, suicide bombers are a whole different kettle of fish.

    One does not do good for one's self by blowing up others and one's self. Kind of defeats the purpose.

    It's 72 virgins.

    Their religion also does not demand that followers strap bombs to their bodies and blow themselves and those around them to high heaven (no pun intended). It is their own interpretation of their religious texts and reasons outside of their religion that allows people to feel the need and/or desire to take such a drastic step.

    Their own beliefs? Yes. But it is not a belief held by the majority.
     
  11. BarbieGirl14 Registered Senior Member

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    407
    But a beliefe none-the-less.
     
  12. Blue_UK Drifting Mind Valued Senior Member

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    Wanting to 'push the invaders out' is one matter.

    Crashing planes into tall buildings is another. Those civilians played no part in what he was getting stroppy about. "oh but they voted Bush in power" "oh but they live corrupt lives" - not excuses.

    Note to others: who gives a shit about her spelling? English is not her first language.
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2008
  13. BarbieGirl14 Registered Senior Member

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    407
    Yah, because we didn't kill innocent people in Vietnam. Because Alexander The Great didn't slaughter thousands of women and children when he was angry at his enemies for not surrendering to him. Because the Americans never sent Japanese-Americans to concentration camps in WW2 due to there race. It was COMPLETELY ok for us to bomb Heroshima, and Nagasoki killing millions. They were just civilians, but hey, we saved a lot of lives in the end, so it's justifiable.


    How about you try looking at both sides of the disagreement. Try understanding both sides thought-process. You are litterally brain-washed by the nationalistic media. Your naïve. I'm opening your eyes.
     
  14. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    We are going to need understanding that goes deeper than a children's fable.
     
  15. clusteringflux Version 1. OH! Valued Senior Member

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    He wasn't a "great man" to anyone at first. He was a "money man" that held some ideals of other people involved in a fight. The war on terror has given him a "greatness", to some, because he's still alive.
     
  16. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    Did you know anything about what the North Vietnamese were doing to the people of South Vietnam BEFORE the Americans arrived there? Why don't you look at that part of history also.
     
  17. Bells Staff Member

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    Ugh, learn your history child. The Japanese were sent to internment camps in the US during the war. No they weren't gassed like the Jews were, but their treatment was despicable nonetheless.

    And who said dropping the bombs were justifiable? Who said slaughtering hundreds of thousands of innocent people is in any way, justifiable?

    But lets look at both sides of the argument. Lets say that he was trying to push out the 'invaders'. It's funny that he was quite happy to work with the 'invaders' during the war to expel the Russians, yes? After all, they were both parasites feeding off each other for a common cause.

    But please, enlighten us on how you think his actions and his orders are in any way justified when you consider just what he has done? He did not attack his enemy during a war. Are his enemies innocent men, women and children? What exactly was he trying to gain in murdering all of them? What about the Muslims who also died in the attacks he orchestrated? Are their deaths somehow justifiable? A man who commits or orchestrates the act whereby thousands of innocent men, women and children are specifically targeted to further his own agenda and desires can never be considered a "great man", regardless of the side of the fence he happens to be sitting on.

    Before you accuse others of being naive, I would suggest you deal with your own naive views of the world. You, who have previously commented on how it would be good to invade other countries to take control of their natural resources and distribute it to make everyone "happy". So open your own eyes and stop spouting about things you know little to nothing about.
     
  18. BarbieGirl14 Registered Senior Member

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    407
    The story is not to make you understand. It has two purposes.

    1st. Raise debate.

    2nd. Read it to your children, and ask them who the bad guys are?

    How easy is it for parents who admire osamma bin laden, to tell there children stories like this. If you were in there situation. If you were indoctrined into this. You would be calling us evil also.
     
  19. Blue_UK Drifting Mind Valued Senior Member

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    Were you talking to me, BG14? You say 'we', when of course the people in power were the one's who made the decision. Not the civilians.

    One atrocity does not warrant another - they're unconnected. Some nut-job in vietnam kills some civilians, so Bin Laden is allowed to take out the twin towers?

    Each of these is separately abhorrent and there is no justification. I've posted elsewhere that nuking Japan was wrong.

    I repeat, defending your homeland is one thing - striking out at third-party civilians is another.
     
  20. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    33,264
    I'd think first you should learn more about history of events befor you make assertions about who were doing what and when.
     
  21. BarbieGirl14 Registered Senior Member

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    407
    Not justifiable, but forgivable? Understandable?



    We have no moderator. The world needs a group pf people. Non-currupt people who's job is to look dilligently into both sides of the disagreement, and determine who is the good guys, and the bad guys. Can there be peace, and how can it be achieved. Who should the world fund, and support, and who should be shunned for instagating a war for selfishness, and greed.

    Untill this happens, the easily manipulated, and deciavable masses will stick to there naïve nationalistic ideas. War will prevail, and peace will forever be a dream.

    We need unity, and we need change. Not someone who's so nationalistic, that they only choose to take there nations side. Someone who cares about the world. Someone who can define happiness, and cause and affect.

    But we need the idea and thought first. We need innovation. Let's get you thinking outside the box.
     
  22. synthesizer-patel Sweep the leg Johnny! Valued Senior Member

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    2,267
    A breif history of OBL

    OBL's focus on attacking the west stems from his experiences after being part of the Muj in Afghanistan way back in the early 80's.

    After holding out longf enough against the russians for the ussr to start to collapse in on itself (with the help of several billion in us currency and modern weapons), OBL returned to the middle east convinced that radical islamism could be a revolutionising force in the ME - replacing corrupt governments with a modern islamic theocracy.

    He and his followers set about attacking government personel and institutions in the beleif that this would incite the people to rise up and join them to overthrow the governments. This never happened - most people were simply horrified by the violence.

    In frustration at the lack of response, OBL, Zawahary (sp?) etc al decided that the lack of response was due to the people being corrupted by western values, that they weren't proper muslims any more, and could therefore legitimately be killed - again they beleived that this would motivate true muslims to rise up and join them - again it failed.

    At this point the islamist movement began to self destruct and disintegrate - with rival factions turning on each other.

    OBL etc blamed this apparent apathy of their co-religionists as a sign of moral corruption, and the source of that moral corruption was the west - and specifically the USA.

    With OBLs support network pretty much in tatters, and most surviving islamist groups changing focus to one of nationalism - OBL and a very small group of followers were left as a small marginalised group willing to attack the west.

    There's a lot more detail in those links I sent you barbie - I suugest you watch them
     
    Last edited: May 16, 2008
  23. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Oh, this is about OBL? His country was never invaded! And he's a religious fundamentalist.
     

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