Supposition

[Michael]

Suppose there is no God.

Just for a moment - stop and suppose there is no God.

HOW did the Torah come about?
HOW did the Bible come about?
HOW did the Qur'an come about?

Is it possible for humans to have writen such books?

[lightgigantic]

sure
I mean even a chimpanzee could have written the encyclopedia Britannica given enough numbers and typewriters to make the odds tenable
:D

[Michael]

Ah, but we have a finite amount of time, given the written language has only been in existence for just so long/ It would take eons upon eons for a chimp to randomly write Britannica.

[greenberg]

HOW did the Torah come about?
HOW did the Bible come about?
HOW did the Qur'an come about?

Is it possible for humans to have writen such books?

The Bible - I imagine it would be possible for humans to write it, possibly by copying another source.
I am not familiar enough with the Torah and Quran to have an opinion about them.

As for the Vedas, some other Sanskrit texts and the Buddhist Pali Canon - I find it hard to imagine that modern humans could have written that.

Consider: over two millenia of Western philosophy, and they haven't come up with a viable and authoritative explanation of how the self and the world exist. But those old texts have.

[lightgigantic]

Ah, but we have a finite amount of time, given the written language has only been in existence for just so long/ It would take eons upon eons for a chimp to randomly write Britannica.
not really
if you succeed at 1:999 999 999 999 999 999 999 999 999 odds, you don't have to sift through the 999 999 999 999 999 999 999 999 998 failures

[Lori_7]

of course it's possible for humans to write books, they do all the time. And it may even mean the same thing to, or have the same effect on some readers, as i think many people perceive these scriptures to be just books, but they're not just books when god uses them to teach people and to change their lives and to show himself to them. so it's the presence of god that matters. and i have had him write things through me. poetry that changed someone's life a great deal but i didn't really know why. and the opposite has happened when he's imparted a message to me through someone else, who had no idea what the message meant, or that it was valuable to me...in conversations or in art.

[Michael]

Interesting comments.

Thanks
Michael

[cosmictraveler]

There are those who want power and control and with a good mind they can take command over others by their verbal words or written words alone. I think that a few very bright people who saw a way to manipulate others used their own skills to write stuff so that others would follow them and therefor their ways become a part of the way things are surrounding them. Having a way to influence people comes easily to a few gifted people and way back when there weren't to many gifted people so they took advantage over the others to create their own fantasy world in which others took care of them.

[Michael]

It's my personal opinion that these books aren't really all that great, certainly not beyond the realm of human literature. I've read books that have brought much more emotion to me than the Bible, that's for sure.

[greenberg]

It's my personal opinion that these books aren't really all that great, certainly not beyond the realm of human literature. I've read books that have brought much more emotion to me than the Bible, that's for sure.

Is emotion the only criterion by which you evaluate a book?

[Diode-Man]

I believe that any creature that is self aware and aware of time, is a piece of "God."

You slip into a coma, 40 years go by, you wake up 40 years later, but since it was a very deep coma with no dreams, you essentially traveled around the sun 40 times in a single moment.

Now let us suppose you were never-ever born, at that point, since there is nothing to perceive time, it doesn't matter if I say 40 years goes by in one moment, now since you were never born 40,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years goes by in a single moment, in-fact, infinity goes by in a single moment.

I should write a book..

[Lori_7]

It's my personal opinion that these books aren't really all that great, certainly not beyond the realm of human literature. I've read books that have brought much more emotion to me than the Bible, that's for sure.

i think people put way too much stock in emotion personally, but if your point is that you've learned more from other works, i could probably say the same.

the thing about the bible is, that it's the story of christ. and the story of him has a purpose and an importance that transcends other supplementary works.

but again, it's intentions that rule. i and you have seen it a thousand times...

people will take the story of christ and use it to hate one another. to pursue a personal agenda that has absolutely nothing to do with christ, and is taking his name in vain and witnessing falsely against him, and they don't even care.

[codanblad]

The Bible - I imagine it would be possible for humans to write it, possibly by copying another source.
I am not familiar enough with the Torah and Quran to have an opinion about them.

As for the Vedas, some other Sanskrit texts and the Buddhist Pali Canon - I find it hard to imagine that modern humans could have written that.

Consider: over two millenia of Western philosophy, and they haven't come up with a viable and authoritative explanation of how the self and the world exist. But those old texts have.

i think considering those texts viable and authoritative is biased.

Muslims believe that since the Qur'an was created no one has matched its poetic style of writing, which they take as proof of its divinity or whatever.

Consider Einstein's work. If Einstein had never been born, would we have figured all that shit out by now? Einstein's brain was supposed to have been designed best for mathematical problems (something about larger lobes). The point is it only takes 1 dude to blow everyone's minds, i figure one of those dudes was involved in ur sanskrit writing, if its as good as you say it is.

[codanblad]

people will take the story of christ and use it to hate one another. to pursue a personal agenda that has absolutely nothing to do with christ, and is taking his name in vain and witnessing falsely against him, and they don't even care.

Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword - J Dog. Mathew 10.34

Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law - J Dog. Luke 12:51

Why do people think that someone as involved in christianity as Jesus would be a messenger of peace? Has anyone read leviticus? The bible wants us to fear god, cos when he's not smiting he's banishing you to hell. J-dog is just carrying out this dude's wishes.

[tim840]

There are those who want power and control and with a good mind they can take command over others by their verbal words or written words alone. I think that a few very bright people who saw a way to manipulate others used their own skills to write stuff so that others would follow them and therefor their ways become a part of the way things are surrounding them. Having a way to influence people comes easily to a few gifted people and way back when there weren't to many gifted people so they took advantage over the others to create their own fantasy world in which others took care of them.

The Bible was written by about 40 people over about 1500 years, so the "few gifted and manipulative people" hypothesis doesn't really hold water. And why would there be any less gifted people back when the Bible was written as there are now?

[Tiassa]

Just for a moment - stop and suppose there is no God.

HOW did the Torah come about?
HOW did the Bible come about?
HOW did the Qur'an come about?

Is it possible for humans to have writen such books?

Very slowly. The Torah, for instance, is a record of communal history and myth.

Likewise, remembering that the Bible is a distillation of oral histories and myths and, furthermore, considering the years of interactive interpretation, rearrangement, and reconsideration of the materials, it does not seem so rarified. Given the obsession that comes with redemptive monotheism and the overriding fear that superstition can inspire, the end product becomes even more mundane compared to what the Bible purports to represent.

We must remember, too, that the Qur'an comes from an alleged illiterate man distressed by the very issues the revelation considers, who is said to have received the words while suffering episodes that could in modern objective language be described as seizures or other neurological or psychiatric events. As the revelations historically coincide with a period of increased wealth and comfort among the Quraysh, we might consider two additional points about Muhammad in a broader context.

During the month of Ramadan in 610 CE, an Arab businessman had an experience that changed the history of the world. Every year at this time, Muhammad ibn Abdullah used to retire to a cave on the summit of Mount Hira, just outside Mecca in the Arabian Hijaz, where he prayed, fasted, and gave alms to the poor. He had long been worried by what he perceived to be a crisis in Arab society. In recent decades his tribe, the Quraysh, had become rich by trading in the surrounding countries. Mecca had become a thriving mercantile city, but in the aggressive stampede for wealth some of the old tribal values had been lost. Instead of looking after the weaker members of the tribe, as the nomadic code had prescribed, the Quraysh were now intent on making money at the expense of some of the tribe's poorer family groupings, or clans. There was also spiritual restlessness in Mecca and throughout the peninsula. Arabs knew that Judaism and Christianity, which were practised in the Byzantine and Persian empires, were more sophisticated than their own pagan traditions. Some had come to believe that the High God of their pantheon, al-Lah (whose name simply meant "the God"), was the deity worshipped by the Jews and the Christians, but he had sent the Arabs no prophet and no scripture in their own language. Indeed, the Jews and Christians whom they met often taunted the Arabs for being left out of the divine plan. Throughout Arabia one tribe fought another, in a murderous cycle of vendetta and counter-vendetta. It seemed to many of the more thoughtful people in Arabia that the Arabs were a lost people, exiled forever from the civilized world and ignored by God himself. But that changed on the night of 17 Ramadan, when Muhammad woke to find himself overpowered by a devastating presence, which squeezed him tightly until he heard the first words of a new Arab's scripture pouring from his lips.

(Armstrong, 3-4)

First, this was a time in which the people were attaining a certain luxury. While some might consider that an overstatement, Islam came about in an environment comparably more harsh and demanding than the Christian experience in Europe. One of the first basic luxuries of a society is the difference between sitting high on a rock to escape the big animal that is trying to eat you and sitting on the rock in order to stare at the stars and attempt to comprehend the scale of everything you take for granted. Even before we know how to express certain fundamental, abstract questions, we consider them. By this time, Muhammad had the luxury of retiring to a cave at Mount Hira during Ramadan; he certainly had the luxury of abstract thought.

Additionally, because of the changes the increased wealth brought, not only did the questions take on a new and mysterious context, but so did the methods of consideration changed as well. It's as simple a difference as which of your presuppositions just are, and which, when you stop to think about it for a moment, don't quite work. More time to think, more ways to think about more things.

Between the possibility of a psychiatric or neurological disorder, the pressures he perceived, and what seems to be a lack of well-defined prior method to build from, it does not seem difficult to accept that Muhammad could become a bit obsessive about his revelations. So even if we accept that the Qur'an was internally generated, it doesn't seem so far-fetched. Muhammad was essentially alone in what was for his personal and social experiences undiscovered country. Given the number of people in the history of the world, it does not seem so unusual that certain combinations of circumstance occur within the locality of a single person that they might communicate. Sometimes the difference between a poet like Byron and a prophet like Gibran is context. Muhammad's was the last great revelation so far. Perhaps someday we might say that about Joseph Smith and his magic hat. But with the greater diversity of context available in the modern era, perhaps Muhammad might be a memorable lyricist, or an infamous revolutionary college professor. Perhaps he would be a philosopher-novelist, an Arab Camus: imagine the beatnik coffehouses, "Kamal Kamu, Friday Night, with Allan Ginsberg and Margaret Atwood."

Plus, the Qur'an has had 1,300 years of people showing it devotion, transforming its meaning through the ages much as the millennia have treated the Bible.

Imagine putting either book before the extraterrestrials: Wait, wait. There's discontinuity here at chapter two. What the hell? There's an episode of the Mark Steel Lectures ("Sigmund Freud") with a bit depicting a mother reading her five year-old boy the Penguin Classics edition of Oedipus Rex, and the kid is just horrified at what he's hearing. At what point, between God's repenting of a kingship over a failed genocide, the blessing of a man who offered his daughter to be gang-raped, extraterrestrial rape, or the bit about a God who arranges his own Son's murder, will the one alien look at the other explaining the story to him and say, "Are you freakin' kidding me?"

Especially in the Christian West, people are conditioned to accept that the Bible is a monumental literary standard. Truth is that while it certainly is a testament to human creativity, it's not the literary all-that-and-a-side-of-fries we've come to accept it to be. The remarkable thing about the Qur'an, to me at least, is its focus. They are certainly exceptional events, but not, for their existence, beyond belief.
_____________________

Notes:

Armstrong, Karen. Islam: A Short History. New York: Modern Library, 2000

[Michael]

Is emotion the only criterion by which you evaluate a book?It really depends on the book. If it's a novel or such then yes I expect to be moved. If it's a science or math book then on how clearly it instructs.

[Michael]

i think people put way too much stock in emotion personally, but if your point is that you've learned more from other works, i could probably say the same.

the thing about the bible is, that it's the story of christ. and the story of him has a purpose and an importance that transcends other supplementary works.

but again, it's intentions that rule. i and you have seen it a thousand times...

people will take the story of christ and use it to hate one another. to pursue a personal agenda that has absolutely nothing to do with christ, and is taking his name in vain and witnessing falsely against him, and they don't even care.I think the reason this is so is because different people with different agendas wrote different parts at different times for different reasons and within different cultures.

[lightgigantic]

It really depends on the book. If it's a novel or such then yes I expect to be moved. If it's a science or math book then on how clearly it instructs.
how about something that moves you only if you follow the instructions?

[toltec]

Suppose there is no God.

Just for a moment - stop and suppose there is no God.

HOW did the Torah come about?
HOW did the Bible come about?
HOW did the Qur'an come about?

Is it possible for humans to have writen such books?



I often doubt human beings stupid enough to write these books could possibly evolved as a result of natural selection.

Perhaps these books are the elusive proof of intelligent design. There's no way someone dumb enough to write this crap could ever have evolved.

[Michael]

Hey Tiassa great post :)
One of the first basic luxuries of a society is the difference between sitting high on a rock to escape the big animal that is trying to eat you too true :D

From what I understand Mohammad did write some of the Qur'an but he, more or less, played the part of chief editor. There were Jewish converts, Xians, Nestorians, Syrians, Persians and many Arab poets.

[Michael]

how about something that moves you only if you follow the instructions?good point. there is something to be said for that.

[codanblad]

of course it's possible for humans to write books, they do all the time. And it may even mean the same thing to, or have the same effect on some readers, as i think many people perceive these scriptures to be just books, but they're not just books when god uses them to teach people and to change their lives and to show himself to them. so it's the presence of god that matters. and i have had him write things through me. poetry that changed someone's life a great deal but i didn't really know why. and the opposite has happened when he's imparted a message to me through someone else, who had no idea what the message meant, or that it was valuable to me...in conversations or in art.

why do you call it god and not coincidence? i mean its the nature of people to discuss/express their fears and passions etc.. if you think it was just too perfect to be coincidence, well you only ever find what you're looking for. how many conversations were just regular old conversations?

sounds like greek mythology to me, gods of war filling men with bravery, apollo blessing them with archery skills. might it have been the god of poetry smiling down upon you as you wrote?

[codanblad]

I often doubt human beings stupid enough to write these books could possibly evolved as a result of natural selection.

Perhaps these books are the elusive proof of intelligent design. There's no way someone dumb enough to write this crap could ever have evolved.

well i'm converted.

[greenberg]

It really depends on the book. If it's a novel or such then yes I expect to be moved. If it's a science or math book then on how clearly it instructs.

Where do you place religious books? What do you expect from religious books - to be emotionally moved, to be instructed ... ?

[Michael]

Depends on the religious book. Why was it written? For what purpose? By whom?

I'd have greatly different expectation from someone writing a book of thought and philosophy compared with someone writing a religious book explaining the alien origins of the human race. In some books I expect myth. I'd expect something different from a monotheistic religous book compared with a polytheistic one.

I'd expect something greatly different of a person who was a religous philosopher and who wrote down their ideas after meditative contemplation than someone who heard voices in his head and/or looked in a magic hat.

[Michael]

Just because I'm not religous doesn't mean I think religous people were not very much more clever and insightful than I'll ever be - especially in regards to philosophers who may have also been religous or interpreted things on the back drop of certain religous assumptions. Even Plato was "religous".

BUT, that's a lot different than when Alexander claimed to be half-God and conquored half the known world. Or the Japanese Emperor sitting behind a screen. Or a Prophet looking into a "magical" hat. Or the Pharaohs. Or the Roman Emperor. Or Ron Hubbard.

So I suppose where I put the religous book depends on who wrote it and why.

AND when I make this distinction I do so on the backdrop of being a atheist. Is someone says "I sat down thought about things and here's what I thought" THAT'S a hell of a lot different then "I heard a voice in my head, had a seizure and here's what It told me".

[lightgigantic]

the basis of scripture is direct perception of transcendence (the seizure or puff of smoke is optional)
the basis of philosophy is mental speculation

Religion should have philosophical merit, but if it is simply composed of it 100%, it has no merit as religion

[inzomnia]

I often doubt human beings stupid enough to write these books could possibly evolved as a result of natural selection.

Perhaps these books are the elusive proof of intelligent design. There's no way someone dumb enough to write this crap could ever have evolved.


If you ask: "Is it possible humans wrote these holy books?", likely 100% will
say it is. Perhaps the question should be: "Who could possibly have written
these holy books” with poll options: human or non-human.

[Michael]

good point

[greenberg]

So I suppose where I put the religous book depends on who wrote it and why.

So you trust this meta-information about the book more than you trust the actual content of the book?


And to go go back to my previous question - What do you generally expect from religious books - to be emotionally moved, to be instructed ... ?

[Michael]

So you trust this meta-information about the book more than you trust the actual content of the book?I see your point. No, of course the contents of the book are what is important about the book, not who wrote it. I meant that different types of people write religous books for different reasons. So a religous Philosopher who has spent a life time pondering the human condition and decided to write these thoughts down - which then may, in time, become a religion. Is a lot different than someone who has a different agenda.

Suppose someone has a fascination in controlling people and is also interested in SciFi. Such a person may write a religous book and maybe they will use many different religous and psychosocial resources only wrap them in an Alien theme and then watch to see what happens.

Or, think of a person thinks they are in touch with the Gods. Perhaps during epileptic fits they have mystical information delivered to them via a spiritual messenger.m (or so they say or think or both)

So, with this in mind I think each book will have a different "flavor".

And to go go back to my previous question - What do you generally expect from religious books - to be emotionally moved, to be instructed ... ?I see no reason why both wouldn't be included in such a book. And, as pointed out, the one does not preclude the other or may even be needed. For example, perhaps to perform Zen meditation instruction is needed, perhaps only after reaching "Zen" do certain passages become emotionally meaningful?



One thing I would look for in a religous book. Something that is novel and meaningful in regards to the human condition. An enlightened perspective one things, one could say.

If the book is simply a rehash of someone else's ideas - then I really think it's a waste of time. And to say something like "Ron Hubbard" is the Last Prophet may be novel but it's not meaningful. It's just a statement. To take a copy of the "insert religous books" and fix the broken bits and patch on another layer of mysticism may have a lot of enlightened material in it (from the original works the book was based on) but it isn't novel - it's a rehash.


Does that make sense?
Michael

[codanblad]

If you ask: "Is it possible humans wrote these holy books?", likely 100% will
say it is. Perhaps the question should be: "Who could possibly have written
these holy books” with poll options: human or non-human.

if you'd offered the complete works of einstein to someone, before einstein was born, mightn't some people tick the non-human box? what plays rival that of shakespeare, 500 years after they were written? how long until someone matches bruce lee's prowess? sometimes people are just really good at stuff. people only think they're non-human when they're clearly linked with religion.

[greenberg]

I see your point. No, of course the contents of the book are what is important about the book, not who wrote it. I meant that different types of people write religous books for different reasons. So a religous Philosopher who has spent a life time pondering the human condition and decided to write these thoughts down - which then may, in time, become a religion. Is a lot different than someone who has a different agenda.

Suppose someone has a fascination in controlling people and is also interested in SciFi. Such a person may write a religous book and maybe they will use many different religous and psychosocial resources only wrap them in an Alien theme and then watch to see what happens.

Or, think of a person thinks they are in touch with the Gods. Perhaps during epileptic fits they have mystical information delivered to them via a spiritual messenger.m (or so they say or think or both)

What would you say is your greatest fear in regards to religious books?
Perhaps that you would believe a religious book, but years later find out you've been fooled?


One thing I would look for in a religous book. Something that is novel and meaningful in regards to the human condition. An enlightened perspective one things, one could say.

What are your criteria for recognizing whether a book says something that is "novel and meaningful in regards to the human condition"?

[Michael]

What would you say is your greatest fear in regards to religious books?My Greatest fear? Hmmmm.... I can't imagine a "fear" per say. I think it would be scary as Hell to be in a position where I was at risk of dieing because some religous kook thought he was doing the "will of God". When I see these guys on the news now and again screeching something like lalalalala Allahu Akbar! lalalalalala Allahu Akbar! and then rip through someones throat with a knife - well, I think if I were that guy, yeah, I'd be crapping my pants in fear.

So my greatest fear of a religous book would be how it can be utilized to justify violence against someone else.

But, that aside, lets just suppose I did for whatever reasons (maybe a brain tumor, some weird experience or what have you) converted to Scientology. Then, some 30 years later found out there really wasn't a Xenu - well, I think I'd be more sad or angry than fearful.

There are lots of things I think I know and in reality I am completely wrong about. One of the greatest places to be in life is that spot where you "know" you really don't know shit all. Perhaps having the feeling of "knowing" is comforting and in knowing I don't know shit-all, maybe I'm just trying to reach a new comfort level?

All of that said, I lived with a Buddhist family in Japan for a few months. I really really enjoyed staying there. They live in a temple. Their father is a priest. Really nice guy. I'm pretty sure that the family have some "religous" (supernatural) beliefs. But so what? The father really seems happy. And he is a great person. He has a great family. But, of course he has all the worries of a husband and father. But in general he seems like an enlightened person. He meditates. He continues to study. He's always saying there is so much he doesn't know about Buddhism and so he studies. He traveled to India and funded a temple there that seems to be trying to help people. I sometimes think I may move back - maybe for a few years? But, then I'd be tossing my career out the window. Then again, maybe I could get it up and running there? Maybe not.

My fears are more simple. Goal = Having a nice job, doing something I love and living somewhere I am happy. I think that with those things the rest would fall into place. But, maybe not. Maybe it's the striving that's what I really want? I mean, I could probably have had the life I'm looking for had I prioritized it.

I also fear I will miss out on things I want to experience. I loved living in Japan. Whereas many people I met there missed home I don't. I left the States almost a decade ago. I am going to try to negotiate a job in Shanghai for 3 years. Which will take me further away from my "goal". Isn't that funny? Maybe my goal is really just to try for goals? (then again I have to say I do like swimming in the ocean, if I can live near the water maybe I'll be happy to "settle down")

Maybe I should fear myself :eek:


What are your criteria for recognizing whether a book says something that is "novel and meaningful in regards to the human condition"?Well, that may be difficult. Novelty is a matter of prior art. Being enlightened (for me) is simply to be insightful.

Here's a quick example:

If the Baha'i claim monotheism as a novel concept (one that was first unique to their religion) I'd simply point out previous faiths that had this concept. So monotheism is not a novel concept. Baha'i have a concept of the rebirth of a New Adam - yes that's new. But, is it enlightening? I'd say yes. It allowed the Baha'i to begin to religiously and socially progress again and to do so post-Islam from within an Islamic culture. You see, working within the Islamic system and being able to come up with a new "semi-Prophet" they invented the "Adam" - Very clever indeed. The founder wanted social change, he recognized that Islam had reached it's used by date and was about 1000 years stale and so he invented the concept of the reborn Adam. And then tried to move people forward again. I'd say that meets my definition of insightful.

At least as I see it,
Michael

[Kadark]

My Greatest fear? Hmmmm.... I can't imagine a "fear" per say. I think it would be scary as Hell to be in a position where I was at risk of dieing because some religous kook thought he was doing the "will of God". When I see these guys on the news now and again screeching something like lalalalala Allahu Akbar! lalalalalala Allahu Akbar! and then rip through someones throat with a knife - well, I think if I were that guy, yeah, I'd be crapping my pants in fear.

So you're using religion to explain social and political events yet again? Hey, go ahead and believe that if it helps you sleep at night. Simple explanations for simple people.

But, that aside, lets just suppose I did for whatever reasons (maybe a brain tumor, some weird experience or what have you) converted to Scientology. Then, some 30 years later found out there really wasn't a Xenu - well, I think I'd be more sad or angry than fearful.

How did you all of a sudden know that "Xenu" didn't exist?

Maybe I should fear myself

Maybe you should stop obsessing about yourself in a thread dealing with the possibility of human involvement within the creation of certain holy books. If we wanted to know your life goals, we'd read your blog. Okay, so we still wouldn't read your blog, but you get the point ...

[Michael]

So you're using religion to explain social and political events yet again? Hey, go ahead and believe that if it helps you sleep at night. Simple explanations for simple people.I did not - I said that THAT could scare the shit out of me. I read an interview with one of the Sunni trainers/handlers in Iraq. He was atheist. He used naive kids from KSA to carry out attacks and dressed them up to think they were martyrs. But he wasn't. He as just fighting against people he viewed as invaders. My point was that if I was somehow in the hands of someone who was a believer and they were going to kill me. That would scare the crap out of me.

Think Indiana Jones and Temple of Doom :D

Other than that there really isn't anything about a religous book that is particularly "frightening" to me.

How did you all of a sudden know that "Xenu" didn't exist?I was thinking, suppose I made it to the top echelons, you know, like Tom Cruise. And then I suppose they take you into this room where Ron is videotaped sitting there saying Congregations you've made it to the top of the CoS and now we will tell you the big secret. I made the whole thing up and this is just a big scam to make money :D

Why, I'd be shocked! Shocked I tells ya!


Maybe you should stop obsessing about yourself in a thread dealing with the possibility of human involvement within the creation of certain holy books. If we wanted to know your life goals, we'd read your blog. Okay, so we still wouldn't read your blog, but you get the point ...Haaaa... there wasn't anyone LEFT in this thread except me, greenberg and codanblad!

I'm surprised you're still lurking :p

Here why don't you answer the question and give an example from you're own beleif.

What are your criteria for recognizing whether a book says something that is "novel and meaningful in regards to the human condition"?

[Michael]

So you're using religion to explain social and political events yet again? Hey, go ahead and believe that if it helps you sleep at night. Simple explanations for simple people.Just out of curiosity Kadark - are you suggesting that religion doesn't play a part? Maybe that's what you need to believe so that you can sleep at night. But, if it didn't play a VERY significant role then why stipulate a Xian President and Muslim PM?

What are your thoughts on this: Protesters burn Indonesian mosque (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7370650.stm)

Around 300 Muslims torched the mosque of some other Muslims just after midnight on Monday. Many Ahmadiyya (an Islamic sect of Muslims) members have sought refuge with friends and relatives nearby. "We heard the attackers chanting 'burn, burn' and 'kill, kill'," Zaki Firdaus, one of the Muslims, told the Associated Press news agency. "It was horrifying." Tensions have increased in recent days since a government-appointed panel recommended that the Ahmadiyya should be banned.


So their we go - a prime example of how a little monotheism in the wrong hands can motive 300 people to go burning and killing some other people. Now, I think we can both agree that if we were in the shoes of the Ahmadiyya and saw some kook running at us with a Qur'an in one hand and a torch in the other screaming lalalalala Allahu Akbar! burn burn burn.. lalalalalala Allahu Akbar! kill kill kill - oh you'd be shit terrified.

Other than that, as I said, there isn't anything in any religous book that has actually scared me. I've been more scared reading Steven King.

[Michael]

Indonesia furore at anti-Islam film (http://www.abc.net.au/ra/programguide/stories/200804/s2205823.htm)
Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono has called for calm as protests in Jakarta against a Dutch film enter their third day. The film has been described as highly offensive to Islam.


SOBANA: The Dutch embassy in Jakarta has been at the centre of demonstrations this week, as dozens of angry protesters voiced their opposition to an anti-Islam film by Dutch parliamentarian, Geert Wilders.

The protest was organised by the radical Muslim group FPI, or Islamic Defenders Front - with some members calling for the death of Wilders.

PROTESTOR: I call on Muslims all over the world to kill those involved in making this film, their blood is halal.


Again, that would scare me. One could call this PURE politics but I really don't see why the blood of a vacationing Dutch person in Bali is "halal" - Oh that's because it's actually pure RELIGIOUS HATRED. One KOOK Dutch person and his farcical film and one KOOK Indonesian and his farcical religion.

[Michael]

Sheikh Sayyid Abul A'la Mawdudi, a Sunni Pakistani theologist and political philosopher who is considered an influential 20th century Islamic thinker wrote this religous book "The Qadiani problem (http://www.amazon.com/Qadiani-problem-Syed-Abul-Maudoodi/dp/B0006E4HZY)" which led to the murder of about 2000 other Pakistani Muslims because they were "heretical".



Oh, we can EASILY find millions of Xian examples as well.
The Spanish Inquisition comes to mind.


The point is - It's what PEOPLE do with their two-bit brain after reading a religous book that is scary, not so much the book.

[Kadark]

I did not - I said that THAT could scare the shit out of me. I read an interview with one of the Sunni trainers/handlers in Iraq. He was atheist. He used naive kids from KSA to carry out attacks and dressed them up to think they were martyrs. But he wasn't. He as just fighting against people he viewed as invaders. My point was that if I was somehow in the hands of someone who was a believer and they were going to kill me. That would scare the crap out of me.

You know what scares me? Stupid people who think they're intelligent. Idiots who think they know why the things going on around them are actually happening.

I was thinking, suppose I made it to the top echelons, you know, like Tom Cruise. And then I suppose they take you into this room where Ron is videotaped sitting there saying Congregations you've made it to the top of the CoS and now we will tell you the big secret. I made the whole thing up and this is just a big scam to make money :D

Why, I'd be shocked! Shocked I tells ya!

Okay, so modern-day Scientology applies in what way to the premise of this thread?

I'm surprised you're still lurking :p

I'm surprised you still haven't been placed in a mental institution.

Here why don't you answer the question and give an example from you're own beleif.

Why don't you stop blabbering on about bullshit I don't care about?

What are your thoughts on this: Protesters burn Indonesian mosque (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7370650.stm)

It's things like this which compel me to believe that punching you in the face should be legal. You gave me this exact same link a few weeks ago, and I posted my full opinion of it. Guess what? Predictably, you've posted the same link again, and want my opinions ... yet again. You know what? Fuck that, and fuck arguing with you. I feel ashamed for wasting this much time on your hopeless ass.

[Michael]

Kadark,

You really must be having a hard time in life. Try not to get so wrapped up in Sciforums. It's simply a webforum.

Yes, I posted that link before - so what? It makes the point in this thread and that's why it's posted here. Again, these are Indonesian people, same ethnicity, same culture, same language, same socioeconomic status - VERY SLIGHT difference in the INTERPRETATION of mythology. Yet, we have these other guys holding a Qur'an in one hand and a torch in the other scaring the shit out of them. I'd say that THESE actions are what is scary about a religous book. NOT the book per say - but how it brings about such an intolerance and how it can be used to justify in the name of a magical sky-daddy the most heinous of actions. Do people act like arse holes anyway? Sure they do. "Nationalism", similar to religion, can bring our the best and the worst in people.

Although, to be fair, Buddhism seems to be evolving into a pretty damn fine faith.

Try not to pop a blood vessel over there Kadark and try to remember that everyone else has just as much (or probably much more) stress as you.

Michael

[Michael]

Okay, so modern-day Scientology applies in what way to the premise of this thread?

I also noticed you just pop on in here, rant for a bit, then leave.

here was the Supposition:

Suppose there is no God.

Just for a moment - stop and suppose there is no God.

HOW did the Torah come about?
HOW did the Bible come about?
HOW did the Qur'an come about?

Is it possible for humans to have written such books?
Well - you didn't answer the questions. So? How about it? HOW did the Qur'an come about? Is it possible for there is no God and humans have written the Qur'an?


In regards to Scientology, it fits the supposition. Is it possible that the books and teachings of Ron Hubbard were made up entirely by him? Yeah, sure it is. Actually, it's probably pretty likely that it was. The CoS probably has as much divine inspiration as John Frumism, Islam, Xiantiy or etc... which is to say it's all written by men. Isn't it sad that in such a day and age poor Muslims over in Indonesia must suffer the wrath of some KooKs who can't make such a simple distinction? Oh well.

[Michael]

Hello Kadark?


Only good for a gambit?

:D
M

[Kadark]

I noticed your posts, Michael.

And guess what? It's the same repetitive bullshit. You know, arguing with you is like arguing with a wall. Hell, it's worse than that: I can confidently say that I've had more intriguing discussions in the past with my own genitals. Why is that, Michael? Is it because you're a walloping dickhead who harasses me with questions that I've constantly answered throughout my Sciforums tenure? Is that why, Michael? The fact that you cannot see the problem with asking for my opinions about the same article twice is enough evidence for me to conclude that you're an asswipe. I wish it ended there, Michael, but we both know it doesn't. You're not an "if your face" asswipe, which is what really pisses me off. You're more of a dangly-cunt kind of asswipe, with mind-bogglingly retarded remarks here and there.

In case you haven't noticed (which wouldn't surprise me at all), the topic of this thread interests me about as much as tetraneutrons. I was merely commenting on your off-topic, highly-inaccurate rants against religion's involvements within social and political events. So yeah ... I'm at a loss for words here. You get my point though, right?

[S.A.M.]

Wow what an argument.

[Michael]

I can confidently say that I've had more intriguing discussions in the past with my own genitals. LOL
Haaaaa! That was funny.


kadark, I can not remember exactly every single little question that I proposed or remark I've made in every and all threads.

I thought this was a relatively new one:

Suppose there is no God.

Just for a moment - stop and suppose there is no God.

HOW did the Torah come about?
HOW did the Bible come about?
HOW did the Qur'an come about?

Is it possible for humans to have written such books?


You see, some people will say no it is impossible for men to have written such books. Well, they'll say yeah, any book but my precious.

I find it very fascinating that someone could really truely believe that Ron Hubbard (or Mohammad or whomever) were inspired by a God to write these books. It's sort of mind-boggling to me.


Just imagine there was this ulternate universe where one group of Robots cut the electricity supply from another group of robots and was EVEN trying to reformat their hard drives - ALL OVER THIS:

00100010001101010011001010110010100100100100100101 01001
01001010010101010101010101010100100100010001101010 01100
10101100101001001001001001010100100100010001101010 01110
10101100101001001001001001010100110010010010010010 10101
10010001000110101011001010010101010000100100100101 01000
00100010001101010011001010110010100100100100100101 01001
01001010010101010101010101010100100100010001101010 01100
10101100101001001001001001010100100100010001101010 01110
10101100101001001001001001010100110010010010010010 10101
10010001000110101011001010010101010000100100100101 01000


You see the one Group of Robots KNEW that only the GREAT programmer could have written such beautiful code :D

[S.A.M.]

You see the one Group of Robots KNEW that only the GREAT programmer could have written such beautiful code :D

http://www.discovercreation.org/newlet/brain-cartoon.gif

[Kadark]

Wow what an argument.

That's either an extremely subtle compliment, or a petty insult.

WHICH IS IT?!

[Kadark]

Michael,

kadark, I can not remember exactly every single little question that I proposed or remark I've made in every and all threads.

A case of (conveniently) selective memory?

I thought this was a relatively new one:

Yeah, well you clearly thought wrong. Do you expect me to apologize or something?

Well, I suppose I will apologize for defecating on you, alongside relieving my testicular "waterworks" on your forehead. For that, I am truly sorry.

[Tiassa]

Wow what an argument.

Well we learned something about Kadark today, for sure. I'm not sure coprophiliac masturbation is necessarily a new standard in the Religion forum, but I confess I've underestimated Kadark:


Well, I suppose I will apologize for defecating on you, alongside relieving my testicular "waterworks" on your forehead.

More to the topic itself, though, I do wonder how something so sublime as these holy books are supposed to be can bring such devastation. Did God not know what His Word would bring? Or did He look over the names written in the Book of Life before time began, see how we got from A to Z, shrug, and say, "It is good"?

It's a bit of a conundrum that is easily reconciled if we accept that these books are human interpretations. Even if we hold that God inspired or created these books, the expressions of sublimity are subject to the limitations of human communication.

[Michael]

Just for a moment - stop and suppose there is no Great Programmer.
Is it possible for Robots to have written such code?

IS is possible that:
00100010001101010011001010110010100100100100100101 01001
01001010010101010101010101010100100100010001101010 01100
10101100101001001001001001010100100100010001101010 01110
10101100101001001001001001010100110010010010010010 10101
10010001000110101011001010010101010000100100100101 01000
00100010001101010011001010110010100100100100100101 01001
01001010010101010101010101010100100100010001101010 01100
10101100101001001001001001010100100100010001101010 01110
10101100101001001001001001010100110010010010010010 10101
10010001000110101011001010010101010000100100100101 01000

Was written by other robots and not a Great Programmer?

:D
M

[Michael]

Well, I suppose I will apologize for defecating on you, alongside relieving my testicular "waterworks" on your forehead. For that, I am truly sorry.Well then Kadark, I will also apologize, I apologize for causing you to ponder :idea: Actually, Satan and I had a bet :deal:, She was pretty sure you'd lose your eternal soul somewhere on these Sciforums, whereas me, I knew you would.

:huh:
M

[Kadark]

Well we learned something about Kadark today, for sure. I'm not sure coprophiliac masturbation is necessarily a new standard in the Religion forum, but I confess I've underestimated Kadark:

Shut up, you greasy mut. I only do it because it satisfies your disgruntled mother. In your sick, twisted mind, I'm doing something "wrong", aren't I?

More to the topic itself, though, I do wonder how something so sublime as these holy books are supposed to be can bring such devastation.

Books don't cause devastation, unless you're referring to some sort of deforestation. Even then, however, you're wrong.

Well then Kadark, I will also apologize, I apologize for causing you to ponder :idea: Actually, Satan and I had a bet :deal:, She was pretty sure you'd lose your eternal soul somewhere on these Sciforums, whereas me, I knew you would.

:huh:
M

You missed a spot.

How embarrassing.

[one_raven]

Is it possible for humans to have writen such books?

Of course.
Why not?

[Michael]

Well someone picked NO :D

Anyway, I've often heard that the Bible is the inerrant word of God or that the Qur'an is soooo perfect no human could have possibly written it...

Hence my question.

[codanblad]

i love how only one person picked no. JESUS WAS ON SCIFORUMS omfg!

[superluminal]

I think aliens wrote those books while taking a lunch break from building stonehenge and the pyramids.

[superluminal]

BTW: I voted NO. (aliens of course...)