View Full Version : Miracles for money..
Benny Hinn. Most of us have heard of him and most of us have probably scrambled for the remote to change channel when his face has graced our unfortunate TV's. The great man himself is apparently on a tour at present, traveling in style in his $35 million private jet. Now mind you, his money does not mean a thing to me. He's rich? Great! But it is the manner in which this individual made his money which is downright immoral, especially when one considers his line of work.
Vulnerable people, many sick and infirm, flock to his "miracle crusades", in the hope of a miracle.. of anything really. Sadly, the reality of the 'miracle' is the ability the man has of extracting money from those vulnerable people who are so desperate as to buy into this charlatan. Many of these poor people happened to have been in the crowd at his "miracle crusade" last night, and the result? Well, lets just say no one was cured, but their bank accounts were definitely cured of their cash. So how would such a miracle giver start his 'miracle crusade'? That's right folks, he talked cash first..
But business comes before miracles when Pastor Hinn is in the building, it seems.
After an hour of songs, Hinn preached a recurring topic. Gold and silver. Silver and gold. The flamboyant non-denominational preacher, who receives an estimated $A110 million in donations per annum, used scripture to encourage crowd members to give. "Do you know how much gold the children of Israel gave Moses to build a tabernacle?" he asked. "Fifty thousand ounces of gold, 150,000 ounces of silver. In today's prices that's over 40 million US dollars in gold alone. I don't know how much that is in Australian dollars, but that's a lot of gold . . . and God blessed them."
Hinn, who owns a $36 million private jet, continued in the same "rich" vein. For 90 minutes he talked dollars. The term "wealth transfer" was uttered 20 times in 10 minutes. "Gold" and "silver" was said 35 times in six minutes alone.
The man believed to be the world's richest evangelist, who has repeatedly refused to join the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability, continued his focus on the almighty dollar.
"If God tells you to give $5000, obey him," Hinn said.
"If God speaks and says give $10,000, obey him. Do not argue with God."
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23224684-3102,00.html
Hmmmmm.. I don't remember God demanding money from believers, being taught in Sunday school.. That must be new.
Anywho..
After speaking of God asking for money for 90 minutes, he then sent around his burly security guards to give out donation envelopes to the poor masses.
This is of course, after he abused a woman whose baby started to cry.
Yet, as he talked of God's love, the pastor couldn't hide his quick temper. The 56-year-old became angry when a crying child interrupted the sermon.
"People came to hear God's word, not children crying," he snapped, singling out a distressed mother. "Do something with that baby."
Seconds later Hinn's security guards, former gridiron players in pinstripe suits and dark glasses, distributed donation envelopes to the crowd.
Hmmmm..
I wonder if God smacked Mary upside the head whenever Jesus cried...
Now imagine the crowd. Being preached about money and how God apparently needs money, for 90 minutes, then seeing him single out a poor woman with a crying child and abusing her and then seeing big burly security guards come filing down the aisles handing out donation envelopes. You'd be scared not to give, wouldn't you? After all, God has said he needs money and one should never argue with God.. after all.. Papa needs to be able to meet the rising cost of fuel for that jet. You'd either be scared of spending eternity in hell or being beaten up by his private security guards.
And after all of this. When the money had flowed in from the hapless crowd.. well then the miracles started to happen. Although not by Mr Hinn, oh no, can't get that shiny white suit dirty. He had a few locals volunteer to touch the masses, while he channeled God. "God has spoken! God has HEALED that woman over there on the right in the red top.. yes.. YOU..no.. not you.. the other right.."..
Then came the healing – a surprisingly hands-off affair administered by Hinn's Australian volunteers.
People were stripped of canes and Zimmer frames, those in wheelchairs helped to their feet. One man, in his late 50s, cried with what looked more like pain than relief.
For Ms Smith, the Friday night event was a disappointing affair.
"There was too much talk about money, about the more you gave the more God loved you," she said.
"I feel drained, let down and let's face it, I still can't walk."
Can't walk indeed. I wonder how much money she happened to have 'donated' for the pleasure.
Leo Volont
02-17-08, 04:01 AM
Why isn't it all just show business?
Do we begrudge Sir Paul McCartney's fortune? Or Madonna's? Or that awful skank's Britney Speer's?
Well, yes. I think all such Fortune's need to be assessed at a very high level of taxation.
Oh, but that does bring up a point, at least in America, where if one can claim to be a Religious Organization, then one is exempt from taxation. This seems quite backwards for a Government that Constitutionally is forbidden to SPONSOR Religion. If they are not SPONSORING Religion, then they need to treat Religion fairly, as they would treat any other Corporate Enterprise, and Tax those gross receipts.
Why isn't it all just show business?
Do we begrudge Sir Paul McCartney's fortune? Or Madonna's? Or that awful skank's Britney Speer's?
Well, yes. I think all such Fortune's need to be assessed at a very high level of taxation.
Oh, but that does bring up a point, at least in America, where if one can claim to be a Religious Organization, then one is exempt from taxation. This seems quite backwards for a Government that Constitutionally is forbidden to SPONSOR Religion. If they are not SPONSORING Religion, then they need to treat Religion fairly, as they would treat any other Corporate Enterprise, and Tax those gross receipts.
It is obscene. I don't care that he's rich. If he had made that money fairly, then great for him. But to prey on the weak and vulnerable in such a fashion is despicable. Telling people that it is God that asks for the money is obscene. And ordering them to give over however much "God" tells to give? Lets face it. The man has found a cash cow in the vulnerable people who should know better but are so desperate that they will believe anything they are told.
I wonder how much God is charging for a miracle nowdays?:rolleyes:
I don't just think he should be taxed. He's treating it like a business and virtually forcing people to give their much needed money to him. He should be thrown in jail for preying on the most vulnerable in our society. Only he gets away with it because he hides behind the blanket of 'religion'.
Asguard
02-17-08, 04:27 AM
i agree with you bells. However i wonder if we SHOULD be shutting down all faith healers because the placibo effect CAN work where moden med fails. So we do need to be carfull that we dont kill people in an effort to protect them
i agree with you bells. However i wonder if we SHOULD be shutting down all faith healers because the placibo effect CAN work where moden med fails. So we do need to be carfull that we dont kill people in an effort to protect them
You can't really shut them down. They hide behind the veil of religion. Therefore they are tax exempt and thus, there is no accountability. He can demand as much as he wants and does, quite successfully in fact. People are either just too scared of going to hell or too desperate to dare refuse. I don't just think he should be shut down. I think he should be thrown in jail for exploiting the needy.
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As much as it embarrasses me to admit, I have a cousin who was a great believer in Benny Hinn. She even went to that particular 'miracle crusade'. And sadder still, she had $8,000 in her bag to 'donate' to 'God'. Thankfully, she returned with every cent in her bag, thoroughly disgusted in the 90 minute 'you must give money when God asks you to' and when he abused the poor woman with the crying baby. I must admit, I am thankful to Benny Hinn. He might just be the one kick my cousin needed to open her eyes and we hope she will start to make the recovery she so desperately needs to get out of the religious nut rut she has fallen into.
But seriously now, how much does God charge for a miracle? Does God demand payment up front or does the miracle have to occur before the fees are payed?
I just find it astounding that people (like my cousin) could be so easily led astray, that they could get sucked in so deeply to the point where they are giving him money they cannot afford to give. Why? Because "if God speaks and says give $10,000, obey him. Do not argue with God."... Notice how it is never 'God says to give $1'. Oh no. Never that low. And notice it is never 'God says to give $100 to the charity of your choice'. Again no. Instead, he supplies his own security guards to wander around the crowd (dressed in dark suits and sunglasses:bugeye:) to distribute donation envelopes. How intimidating would that be?
Funny thing is, had he been an accountant or an insurance salesman for example, he would most probably be in jail by now.
Oh dear lord..
Benny Hinn is also a proponent of the Prosperity Gospel or the Word of Faith movement. As is implied by the name "Prosperity Gospel" the supporters believe that faith works as a mighty power or force. That it is through their faith that they can obtain anything they want – such as health, wealth, or any form of personal success. However, this force is only released through their faith.
Link (http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/main_miracles.html)
Fair enough one could say if one were a believer. If you really believe in something or want something hard enough, it just might come to you. However here is the little kicker. The only way to express that faith is to give him the money.
According to Pastor Benny if a person expresses their faith by sowing a sufficient monetary seed into his ministry - that person will be granted divine physical healing.
Nice.
But lets just imagine the man is a giving man. After all, the more you give, the more you get back, right?
Here is a very small sampling of financial records from the summer of 2003. At that time Hinn had crusades in St. Petersburg, Russia and Stockholm, Sweden then departed for a four day whirlwind trip to Italy and London, billing it as a simple layover.
* A hotel bill for room service and chauffeur services at the Lanesborough Hotel in London (see bill .pdf)
* Tips given to staff at Lanesborough Hotel in London after a one day stay (see chit .pdf)
* Tips given to the staff at the Savoia Hotel in Milan, Italy (see chit .pdf)
* $5000US dollars cash given to Pastor Benny Hinn (PBH), no details for the reason (see chit .pdf)
* A gift from Benny Hinn to a 'homeless woman with a baby' of $20US (see chit .pdf)
From the same link posted above in this post.
Hmmmmm...
People are f'ing idiots. I don't feel a bit sorry for people who support this kind of activity and this man. I do know though, that God is very aware of what people's intentions are and while Benny Hinn will get his, those who are sincere in giving will get theirs too. But people who think that you can buy favors from God will get nothing but an empty wallet.
Orleander
02-17-08, 10:27 AM
who is that lady that is about the same as him. She says how to get rich.
Anyways, she got sued by a person who tithed, prayed, etc and got poorer. Finally that person sued her. If I could remember her name I'd post a link.
If you don't heal, could you sue Hinn?
cosmictraveler
02-17-08, 10:33 AM
If you don't heal, could you sue Hinn?
No, because the Lord works in "mysterious " ways, which means Hinn cannot do any healing only the Lord can according to Hinn.
Orleander
02-17-08, 10:35 AM
but if you send him money and you're still not healed...can you get your money back?
cosmictraveler
02-17-08, 10:37 AM
but if you send him money and you're still not healed...can you get your money back?
Nope, but you can feel better that you bought Hinn a new car or something with your "donation".
but if you send him money and you're still not healed...can you get your money back?
You can't.
He preaches in a manner that leads people to believe that the more they give to him, the better they will be. So imagine the poor people who are unable to give thousands of dollars or the figure that God apparently tells them to give. Imagine one person who has cancer and can only afford to give $100 a month. They ultimately die or get worse and they can easily be led to believe that the reason they were not cured or receive a miracle is simply because they did not 'believe' and thus, give enough. For example:
Hinn notes that only rarely does he lay hands on someone for healing, but he made an exception for one child whose case was being filmed for the HBO documentary. The boy was blind and dying from a brain tumor. "The Lord's going to touch you," Hinn promised. The child's parents believed and, although not wealthy, pledged $100 per month to the Benny Hinn Ministries. Subsequently, however, the child died.
Critics, like the Rev. Joseph C. Hough, President of New York's Union Theological Seminary, say of the desperately hopeful: "It breaks your heart to know that they are being deceived, because they genuinely are hoping and believing. And they'll leave there thinking that if they didn't get a miracle it's because they didn't believe."
http://csicop.org/si/2002-05/i-files.html
If you were those parents, there would be that degree of self doubt and self loathing that your son died because he did not believe he could be cured or that you did not believe that he could be cured. Plus you only gave $100 a month to buy a miracle for your son. I would hate to imagine what they would have thought when their son died.
And then of course there are the inherent dangers to people who believe themselves cured, stop all their medications and medical treatments. Here is but one example of the type of damage that faith healers like Hinn can actually do to people.
As these cases demonstrate, there is a danger that people who believe themselves cured will forsake medical assistance that could bring them relief or even save their lives. Dr. Nolen (1974, 97-99) relates the tragic case of Mrs. Helen Sullivan who suffered from cancer that had spread to her vertebrae. Kathryn Kuhlman had her get out of her wheelchair, remove her back brace, and run across the stage repeatedly. The crowd applauded what they thought was a miracle, but the antics cost Mrs. Sullivan a collapsed vertebra. Four months after her "cure," she died.
Nolen (1974, 101) stated he did not think Miss Kuhlman a deliberate charlatan. She was, he said, ignorant of diseases and the effects of suggestion. But he suspected she had "trained herself to deny, emotionally and intellectually, anything that might threaten the validity of her ministry." The same may apply to Benny Hinn. One expert in mental states, Michael A. Persinger, a neuroscientist, suggests people like Hinn have fantasy-prone personalities (Thomas 2001). Indeed, the backgrounds of both Kuhlman and Hinn reveal many traits associated with fantasy-proneness, but it must be noted that being fantasy prone does not preclude also being deceptive and manipulative.
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People are f'ing idiots. I don't feel a bit sorry for people who support this kind of activity and this man.
You should. These people are desperate and they will grasp at anything and everything. What is sorry is that these people are convinced that if they believe, they will be cured. If they 'give', they will be cured. As I said, these people then ultimately get worse and then begin to believe they did not give enough or believe enough. I feel sorry for the despair that people like Hinn cause these people. I feel sorry for the people who become deceived and I am angry by fact that he is freely allowed to manipulate them in such a fashion without fear of prosecution, because he hides behind the fact that he is running a religion.
Hinn is nothing more than a charlatan, a thief and a fraud. He preys on the most vulnerable and he profits from their pain and desperation.
I see these idiots on TV every Sunday, at about 4:00 AM on the verge of sleeping. I'm most familiar with the Satan look-alike, Peter Popoff, who is running a lucrative business after disappearing from the scene when James Randi exposed his scam.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7BQKu0YP8Y
I think it's inexcusable for these lowlifes to use religion as a business, but I feel just as much rage toward the individuals who sustain these men's earnings. How can somebody believe that buying "Miracle Spring Water" will cure your ills?
I find it disgusting how these individuals can use religion to exploit and prey on people who are so desperate that they would buy into it.
but if you send him money and you're still not healed...can you get your money back?
What a silly question. It's not for us to question god's will.
Asguard
02-17-08, 07:03 PM
Bells i agree with you (see the PM i sent you) and i am so sorry about your cousin. Unfortunatly bottom dwellers are had for our laws to touch. Same thing goes for surposedly "Complementry Alternitve Theropies". I have herd stories of people being charged $100,000 plus for cures to cancer that are just water and it sickens me. The terminally ill, the pysically handicaped and the mentally ill are treated as cash cows to be exploited. By the same token i dont know what the answer is, do you ban things like the "last rights" that give comfert for the sick and dying in an effort to get rid of these people? Do things that might actually HELP like lorenso's oil, chiness med and acupuncher get banned in an effort to weed out the snake oil salesmen?
I am very warry of geting the parliment and the law invoved incases like this because nither of them deal very well with gray. Look at what happened when they banned FGM, they "acidently" banned genital percisings and tatooes which (although the libs though were wrong) was a womans informed choice
The same when the victorian goverment tried to ban trading on Good Friday, they acidently (this one WAS an acident) wrote the laws in such a way that petrol stations were banned from opening. We had the premure of the state on the TV begging petrol stations to break the law on the promise they would fix it restrospecitvly the next day parliment sat.
So although i agree with you 100% and have watched people turn away from mainstreem med that would have helped them because they were duped i dont know what we can do
Look at the Jo hoves who wont accept blood to save there own lives or the lives of there children (at least the law put a stop to THAT one) or scientology with there hatred of psycitray. Hell there is a car that drives around near my place with a trailer saying that "psycitry is drugging our kids" and everytime i see it i want to paint over it "scientology is run by a fake who was only out to make money" but i cant
I have nothing but empathy for your fight though
I don't wish to upset any Americans but on this side of the pond we cannot believe what you allow these charlatans to get away with.
I remember Oral Roberts who retreated into his prayer t6ower and vowed not to come out until six million dollars had been donated to his ministry; he got it.
Has anyone seen a documentray on baby preachers who are being exploited by their parents ?
It's this sort of stuff that makes us say; " that could only happen i America "
I find it disgusting how these individuals can use religion to exploit and prey on people who are so desperate that they would buy into it.
What the hell has religion got to do with it ? As you say, it's about preying, not praying
What the hell has religion got to do with it ? As you say, it's about preying, not praying
Ah, but religion has everything to do with it. People like Hinn hide behind it and therefore are not held accountable for their practices. As I said before, had Hinn been an accountant and encouraging people to give him money to get more money back from the IRS for example, he'd be in jail. But once the notion of 'religion' and 'God' enters the fray, well, he is not accountable to anyone really. He enjoys a tax exempt status, he does not have to join the evangelical accountability body because it is voluntary. He can do as he damn well chooses with the money people donate to him to prove just how much they believe. And he does. The man leads a lifestyle that is lavish to the point of being nearly obscene when one considers how he has come by his wealth.
You should. These people are desperate and they will grasp at anything and everything. What is sorry is that these people are convinced that if they believe, they will be cured. If they 'give', they will be cured. As I said, these people then ultimately get worse and then begin to believe they did not give enough or believe enough. I feel sorry for the despair that people like Hinn cause these people. I feel sorry for the people who become deceived and I am angry by fact that he is freely allowed to manipulate them in such a fashion without fear of prosecution, because he hides behind the fact that he is running a religion.
Hinn is nothing more than a charlatan, a thief and a fraud. He preys on the most vulnerable and he profits from their pain and desperation.
Do you really think it's a good idea to tell people what they should and should not think or feel? I don't. I'm not telling you what to think. And unfortunate as it is, stupid people make stupid investment decisions. I see poor people all the time buying drugs and lottery tickets with the last few dollars they've got to try to escape their problems until they get some miracle "cure". And there is no miracle cure! The term "miracle" is very relative too. I mean, you could say that everything is a miracle. Life is a miracle. And at the same time you could then say that nothing is a miracle. The point is that God's power is not to be purchased. It's not for sale. So the fact that these people aren't able to buy it is a good thing. What if they could? What would that mean? Think about it. Listen, I've had my dealings with the Lord so I know better. Maybe that's the whole point...before investing, you should know who you're dealing with. Benny Hinn doesn't guarantee these people something. How could he?
shorty_37
02-17-08, 08:18 PM
Hinn is nothing more than a charlatan, a thief and a fraud. He preys on the most vulnerable and he profits from their pain and desperation.
:thumbsup: I was flipping channels one night and saw this clown on. I watched it for about 10 mins, which was all I could stomache. I couldn't beleive ppl fall for his BS! I was also starting to wonder if I was watching the shopping network with the amount of crap he was trying to sell.
Benny Hinn is fleecing people and making a fortune doing it. I have no sympathy whatsoever for the suckers he fleeces. They deserve it.
Not paying tax too. Awesome job if you can get it.
Leap of Faith
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104695/
I never had a problem with performers making money. Personally I never watched any of them and barely even know what Benny Hinn looks like but you guys outside of U.S need to lighten up a little.
Hey, its survival of the fittest. Whether its American Idol or American Preacher or American President. Its all paid for by the adoring public.
Why not?
Perhaps we should just shut you out.
I'm all for it. If the public wants it, they have a right to it. Its not illegal.
People pay to hear Dawkins squawk and he makes money from books against God (http://richarddawkins.net/).
He's also declared himself a charity (http://richarddawkinsfoundation.org/foundation,donations) and flits around the world on public expense.
Same thing.
Build a wall around and leave you cold, isolated, cast out, banished.
What are you blabbing about?
We dont see see too much from other countries so it is hard to criticize it. Is American media that big around the world?
Do you really think it's a good idea to tell people what they should and should not think or feel? I don't. I'm not telling you what to think. And unfortunate as it is, stupid people make stupid investment decisions. I see poor people all the time buying drugs and lottery tickets with the last few dollars they've got to try to escape their problems until they get some miracle "cure". And there is no miracle cure! The term "miracle" is very relative too. I mean, you could say that everything is a miracle. Life is a miracle. And at the same time you could then say that nothing is a miracle. The point is that God's power is not to be purchased. It's not for sale. So the fact that these people aren't able to buy it is a good thing. What if they could? What would that mean? Think about it. Listen, I've had my dealings with the Lord so I know better. Maybe that's the whole point...before investing, you should know who you're dealing with. Benny Hinn doesn't guarantee these people something. How could he?
My apologies. What I meant to say that I think some of these people do deserve some pity.
Benny Hinn is fleecing people and making a fortune doing it. I have no sympathy whatsoever for the suckers he fleeces. They deserve it.
Part of me wants to agree with you and Lori. Sometimes I think my cousin is an idiot for having bought into it. Hell, she is an idiot for having bought into it. But then I start to think about how desperate some actually are and how through that desperation, they are completely taken advantage of.
Nearby sat seven-year-old Bernie Hudson. The bright-eyed Cairns local, who was born with spina bifida and now suffers scoliosis, begged parents Ken and Karen to bring her along. She sat in her small wheelchair and waited, excited about the possibility of being able to walk.
"She gets up every morning at 5.30am to watch Benny's show This Is Your Day!" Ms Hudson said.
"She watches the pastor healing other people, and thought maybe he could do something for her."
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,23224684-3102,00.html
I mean, that just makes me want to cry.
I'm all for it. If the public wants it, they have a right to it. Its not illegal.
People pay to hear Dawkins squawk and he makes money from books against God.
He's also declared himself a charity and flits around the world on public expense.
Same thing.
With one major difference. Dawkins does not tell people to stop taking their medication and to stop their medical treatment because God will cure them.. if they pay the amount that God asks them to, of course. What Hinn does is downright dangerous. And he is allowed to do this with no repercussions.
It's not the same thing at all. Dawkin's actions do not lead people to their death, nor does he convince them that they should give their money to him (in their greatest time of need) because God has told them they should.
The problem is that it is not illegal. It should be illegal. The only reason it is not is because he claims his ministry as being a religion.
Personally I never watched any of them and barely even know what Benny Hinn looks like but you guys outside of U.S need to lighten up a little.
Lighten up a little? It doesn't bother you that someone could travel the world, fleecing desperate and sick people who have no legal recourse when it all fails?:bugeye:
People are free to swallow any BS unfortunately, even the ones who pay through the nose for therapy, real and imagined.
I don't just think he should be taxed. He's treating it like a business and virtually forcing people to give their much needed money to him. He should be thrown in jail for preying on the most vulnerable in our society. Only he gets away with it because he hides behind the blanket of 'religion'.
I don't think the government should be involved in people's private affairs. If you want to give money to God, you should be allowed to. It's your money, right?
Bells:
"Lighten up a little? It doesn't bother you that someone could travel the world, fleecing desperate and sick people who have no legal recourse when it all fails?"
I wouldnt exactly call it fleecing, he is making his money off of sheer volume. But like i said, is it really that big of a deal?
Sam:
"even the ones who pay through the nose for therapy."
Just recently there was this guy who used a meat clever to kill someone, who did he kill?
HIS THERAPIST.
Here it is, Finland not US. Probably listened to one too many Dawkins theories, eh?
I am prepared to fight and die for my cause, . . . I, as a natural selector, will eliminate all who I see unfit, disgraces of human race and failures of natural selection. No, the truth is that I am just an animal, a human, an individual, a dissident . . . . It’s time to put NATURAL SELECTION & SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST back on tracks!
A social darwinist no less
http://news.aol.co.uk/finland-school-gunman-dies/article/20071107070809990002
Don't have to be a Christian to create victims.
SkinWalker
02-17-08, 10:33 PM
Do we begrudge Sir Paul McCartney's fortune? Or Madonna's? Or that awful skank's Britney Speer's?
If their fortunes were made by milking their concert-goers for every dime they had, all the while promising to magically "heal" their worst ailments, diseases, and physical deformities, then, yes, we would necessarily begrudge them.
What about atheists who spread a nocebo effect among people?
Should they be held responsible for any resultant suicides or deaths?
SkinWalker
02-17-08, 10:40 PM
Stay on topic. Please.
Stay on topic. Please.
Sorry for any dissonance, I am addressing this point.
i agree with you bells. However i wonder if we SHOULD be shutting down all faith healers because the placibo effect CAN work where moden med fails. So we do need to be carfull that we dont kill people in an effort to protect them
The nocebo effect is also known.
Doctors use the placebo effect automatically in their work. For example, they behave confidently and reassuringly even when completely stumped by the patient's symptoms or faced suddenly with a life-threatening disorder. They are right to behave this way. A doctor's anxiety would trigger the placebo effect's evil twin, the nocebo effect. "Nocebo" means "I will harm," and nocebos really do harm. Patients may be ill for longer periods and suffer worse symptoms if nocebo effects convince them that they are doomed.
http://mindfulhack.blogspot.com/2006_12_26_archive.html
And recognised:
The clinical role of spirituality was well addressed by Speck, Higginson and Addington-Hall (1). Despite recognized positive effects of spiritual experiences, significant equivocality exists about its clinical relevance. From this, arise several issues. First, the synonymous use of spiritual and religious may pose both heuristic and practical clinical difficulty. Spiritual events manifest properties of transcendence, emotionality and alteration in physical experience. Religion may be a vehicle through which existential explanatory models and noetic properties of spiritual experiences are induced, framed and assume meaning. However, secular beliefs and experiences can be equally powerful and thus “spiritual”. Explanatory models affect patients’ locus of control and well-being (2). Perhaps revised semiotics would be beneficial to both physicians and patients.
Second, spiritual experience involves distinct neural mechanisms . Engagement of these substrates may produce many of the subjective feelings of the noetic event, and are partly responsible for the activation of extra-neural events that mediate pain and recuperation (3). Subjective properties of such experiences (qualia) appear crucial for the induction of physiologic mechanisms and concomitant salutogenic effects. Therefore, clinicians might incorporate these phenomena to affect both objective health and patients’ subjective feelings of wellness.
Ethical appreciation of these domains fosters a patient-centered approach. Simple neutrality is not viable in that patients’ belief systems may be implicitly scrutinized, promoting dissonance in the therapeutic relationship and could incur nocebo effects (4). Spiritual beliefs and practices are consistent with bio-psychosocial factors constructing patients’ worlds that are influential in health (5). Direct involvement with patients’ spirituality may be beyond the scope of clinical practice. Yet, the fiduciary relationship between physician and patient instigates clinicians’ pro-active role in evaluating patients’ spirituality, recognizing its importance and providing resources to accommodate patients’ needs.
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/eletters/329/7458/123
I don't think the government should be involved in people's private affairs. If you want to give money to God, you should be allowed to. It's your money, right?
You're absolutely right. But think of it this way. If Hinn had been the head of a corporation and had taken money from the investors in a similar fashion, would he still be flying all over the world, and continuing to do so with nothing to show for it but his own wealth and the investors get nothing in return? Not the heals they were promised.. nothing..
Here it is, Finland not US. Probably listened to one too many Dawkins theories, eh?
What does that have to do with this topic?
Has Dawkins ever told people to give him money so that they can be cured of their illnesses? Has he ever stood on a stage and told people that the amount they gave was somehow reflective of just how much they believed and the more they give, the more miracles were likely to follow?
What about atheists who spread a nocebo effect among people?
Should they be held responsible for any resultant suicides or deaths?
Huh?
You are equating atheists telling people they don't believe in God as being somehow similar to a prancing prat in a white suit, telling people to give him money because God says so and the more they give, the more miracles they are likely to be blessed with.. not to mention telling sick people they are cured and lead them to believe they no longer need medical treatment, resulting in their dying.. You think the two are comparable?:bugeye:
Ermm ok..
Moving right along..
I wouldnt exactly call it fleecing, he is making his money off of sheer volume. But like i said, is it really that big of a deal?
What do you think John? In the grand scheme of things, it really is no big deal. After all, there is a sucker born every minute, isn't there? But I would like you to think of the sheer amount of influence someone like Hinn happens to have over people...
Telling people:
"If God tells you to give $5000, obey him," Hinn said.
"If God speaks and says give $10,000, obey him. Do not argue with God."
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/s...4-3102,00.html
Nooo.. not fleecing at all..:rolleyes:
Asguard
02-17-08, 11:23 PM
HUH if that was aimed at me SAM im confused as to your meaning. I was trying to point out that if we throw all of them in jail then we remove hope from SOME people. Is removing this a good thing? On the balance of propabilites are all of them acting in there OWN best intrests or are some of them acting for compasionate reasons. These are the things we need to think about before brining in laws that prohibate this sort of action.
My post may be a little disjointed because i first responded to a PM from bells and then here and didnt make exactly the same points in both (im sorry if i go over the same ground but i want to clear my point up)
We currently have 1000's of different kinds of faith healers, new age healers, so called tradional healers, aborigional medicin, complementry alternitive theropie ect
How do we regulate all of this?
Some of it ranges from the down right dangiorous (like the church of scientology) to the emotionally helpful (like "last rights") to things that are actually effective but havent been scientically tested yet (acupuncher and alot of chiness med)
How do we remove the explotation without removing those that honestly seek to help?
i have herd of cases where people have paid 1000's to get a "cure" for inoprable cancer that turned out to be water or a sugar pill. I have also herd the storie of lorenso's oil where the reason it was effective wasnt known but it turned out to be effective.
How does a parliment (or a congress) address this issue in a neat little bill?
We have faith healers in India too, the problem is, if you make bills against them, it only drives them underground.
Besides, there are innumerable people who have greater faith in these healers than modern medicine. So is it right to take away this choice? I don't know. But I think we should be careful not to allow our personal beliefs to decide another persons choices.
Even doctors will encourage patients to pray, will encourage them to have faith. Even a doctor cannot enforce treatment if the patient does not consent.
Asguard
02-17-08, 11:44 PM
Firstly there ARE cases for forced treatment especially under the mental health acts
Secondly im all in favor of shuting explotive "services" down but i have no idea how to go about it. I dont want a law to be written that say bans priests from admistering the last rights to pts in a hospital or bans a treatment that DOES work simply because its not been fully tested (this goes for private as well as for drug companies with new drugs that are still experiamental)
I agree. But that goes for medical specialists and exploitative medicine and big pharma too.
iceaura
02-18-08, 12:21 AM
What you get if you don't make some rules ? Transplanting of goat testicles into men to cure impotence: http://www.powells.com/biblio?isbn=9780307339881
John Brinkley not only carried medical an religious placebo effect to its pinnacle of lucrativeness, nearly got elected governor of Kansas, helped pioneer bigtime radio, was probably responsible for the initial popularizing of "country" music (for which he was never prosecuted); but
he was, by some accounting methods, the most prolifically lethal serial killer the US has ever known.
The problem with blessing placebo and "hope" and religious and "why not" treatments is that, like bad money, they drive out the good. Alternatives exclude.
There have been more people killed by the journey to the healing fountains at Lourdes, for example, than have been cured by them.
What you get if you don't make some rules ?
The problem with blessing placebo and "hope" and religious and "why not" treatments is that, like bad money, they drive out the good. Alternatives exclude.
There have been more people killed by the journey to the healing fountains at Lourdes, for example, than have been cured by them.
Good, you can start here: :p
http://www.sanatansociety.org/india_travels_and_festivals/images/kumbh13_jpg.jpg
That is just one place in India, there are thousands more
All the best.
iceaura
02-18-08, 12:58 AM
Good, you can start here: Start what ?
Telling them that faith healers are like bad money. :p
Maybe you think that laws will change their minds? You have got to be kidding me.
Couldn't find a cop willing to take on those guys.
Sam
Don't you think there should be some level of accountability with the whole practice?
For example, priests are held accountable by the judicial system when they perform an exorcism and the 'possessed' individual ends up dying as a result.Link (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,15667323-601,00.html) Don't you think a 'faith healer' who tells a sick person that they are cured and they can cease all medical treatment should be held accountable if that individual ends up dying or gets sicker?
What if that person is encouraged to 'donate' money to the healer with the advice that they God needs it?.. Apparently God is short on cash at the moment and has a going rate for performing miracles..
Sam
Don't you think there should be some level of accountability with the whole practice?
For example, priests are held accountable by the judicial system when they perform an exorcism and the 'possessed' individual ends up dying as a result.Link (http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,15667323-601,00.html) Don't you think a 'faith healer' who tells a sick person that they are cured and they can cease all medical treatment should be held accountable if that individual ends up dying or gets sicker?
What if that person is encouraged to 'donate' money to the healer with the advice that they God needs it?.. Apparently God is short on cash at the moment and has a going rate for performing miracles..
Accountability for what? Faith? VFM? Should we start assessing whether designer jeans are really worth $300? Therapy sessions $200 an hour? A McDonalds everytime you feel low?
People are quite free to spend their money on what they want. Maybe it helps them, maybe it does not, but you can't tell them its right or wrong. All you can do is offer them choices and educate them enough to be able to hopefully make the right one.
Maybe it will be an issue that India has to tackle in the future, but right now, it would be counterproductive
Up to a point. Bells link does not work but i think, at least in U.S, these people are held accountable and are not out stealing peoples life savings. Not by a long shot because people really do go to prison for that.
Accountability for what? Faith? VFM? Should we start assessing whether designer jeans are really worth $300? Therapy sessions $200 an hour? A McDonalds everytime you feel low?
People are quite free to spend their money on what they want. Maybe it helps them, maybe it does not, but you can't tell them its right or wrong. All you can do is offer them choices and educate them enough to be able to hopefully make the right one.
Maybe it will be an issue that India has to tackle in the future, but right now, it would be counterproductive
Of course people are free to spend their money as they so choose. What I am saying is that it is immoral for people like Hinn to ask for money in the name of God, leading them to then believe they have been healed, at times guilting them into giving more than they are able to, telling them God is demanding they somehow pay up... Using money as a bargaining chip in proving just how much they believe. You don't see anything wrong with people like Hinn doing something like this and not being held in any way accountable for it? You're right, I guess our views on what constitutes as being 'moral' does differ between atheists and theists.
Up to a point. Bells link does not work but i think, at least in U.S, these people are held accountable and are not out stealing peoples life savings. Not by a long shot because people really do go to prison for that.
Ah no they are not actually. He can convince someone that God has said to give a certain amount of dollars, and that person could clear out their life savings in proving just how much they believe. Hinn does not have to account for where that money goes. He has, to date, refused to be a party to the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability. He is also tax exempt, as is his ministry. So just how is he held accountable John? I'd really like to know because I have looked into it and he does not have to be held in any way, shape or form, accountable for the money that he takes from people.
Of course people are free to spend their money as they so choose. What I am saying is that it is immoral for people like Hinn to ask for money in the name of God, leading them to then believe they have been healed, at times guilting them into giving more than they are able to, telling them God is demanding they somehow pay up... Using money as a bargaining chip in proving just how much they believe. You don't see anything wrong with people like Hinn doing something like this and not being held in any way accountable for it? You're right, I guess our views on what constitutes as being 'moral' does differ between atheists and theists.
I think people have a right to choose the kind of treatment they want. Many people favor alternative medicine in India and many others prefer to go to faith healers. Many prefer not to go to a doctor at all and avoid their medicines as something unnatural. Still others live lives as ascetics or abandon their homes and lives for enlightenment. In India, we believe in allowing people to be, even if we disagree with them. Maybe, at some point, we will become enlightened enough to sneer at them and then they can all join the great monoculture.
I think people are entitled to pay Hinn if they want. Its a choice they make for their beliefs like those who make offerings to deities in temples and expect to be healed.
:thumbsup: I was flipping channels one night and saw this clown on. I watched it for about 10 mins, which was all I could stomache. I couldn't beleive ppl fall for his BS! I was also starting to wonder if I was watching the shopping network with the amount of crap he was trying to sell.
It's a miracle that you lasted ten minutes. What motr proof do you need ? When you send your donation, don't forget the Lord wants American dollars.
I think a lot of you are missing the point. it's not a question of preventing people spending their money as they wish; It's about legislation to prevent these charlatans operating in the first place.
A doctor has to undergo a course of training and, before qualifying, must demonstrate his fitness to practise. So why should "healers" be an exception ? Before being allowed to practise, putative healers should be required to demonstrate their effectiveness under controlled conditions. This would allow no room for bs, anecdotal evidence and so on. I do not see how some such procedure could be regarded as hostile by healers. Anyone convinced he has the power to heal would welcome the opportunity to demonstrate what he can do and, at the same time, testify to god before others.
It would be unreasonable to expect 100% success; A success rate of , say, 75% should be fair.
Hey, its survival of the fittest. Whether its American Idol or American Preacher or American President. Its all paid for by the adoring public.
Why not?
I know you are no fan of evolutionary theory , but at least use "the survival of the fittest " in the sense that Darwin intended. You are perpetuating a misunderstanding by those who know nothing of evolutionary theory, despite which they reserve the right to criticize it.
I think a lot of you are missing the point. it's not a question of preventing people spending their money as they wish; It's about legislation to prevent these charlatans operating in the first place.
So how are you going to legislate a priest giving counselling? Recommending prayers to those who are grieving? Giving holy water to his parish people when they come to him?
And then go on to say, a yogi who mixes herbs based on traditional lore.
And then go on to say, a priest giving a talisman to whoever comes to him with grievances?
Jan Ardena
02-18-08, 10:19 AM
Benny Hinn. Most of us have heard of him and most of us have probably scrambled for the remote to change channel when his face has graced our unfortunate TV's. The great man himself is apparently on a tour at present, traveling in style in his $35 million private jet. Now mind you, his money does not mean a thing to me. He's rich? Great! But it is the manner in which this individual made his money which is downright immoral, especially when one considers his line of work.
Vulnerable people, many sick and infirm, flock to his "miracle crusades", in the hope of a miracle.. of anything really. Sadly, the reality of the 'miracle' is the ability the man has of extracting money from those vulnerable people who are so desperate as to buy into this charlatan. Many of these poor people happened to have been in the crowd at his "miracle crusade" last night, and the result? Well, lets just say no one was cured, but their bank accounts were definitely cured of their cash. So how would such a miracle giver start his 'miracle crusade'? That's right folks, he talked cash first..
Hmmmmm.. I don't remember God demanding money from believers, being taught in Sunday school.. That must be new.
Anywho..
After speaking of God asking for money for 90 minutes, he then sent around his burly security guards to give out donation envelopes to the poor masses.
This is of course, after he abused a woman whose baby started to cry.
Hmmmm..
I wonder if God smacked Mary upside the head whenever Jesus cried...
Now imagine the crowd. Being preached about money and how God apparently needs money, for 90 minutes, then seeing him single out a poor woman with a crying child and abusing her and then seeing big burly security guards come filing down the aisles handing out donation envelopes. You'd be scared not to give, wouldn't you? After all, God has said he needs money and one should never argue with God.. after all.. Papa needs to be able to meet the rising cost of fuel for that jet. You'd either be scared of spending eternity in hell or being beaten up by his private security guards.
And after all of this. When the money had flowed in from the hapless crowd.. well then the miracles started to happen. Although not by Mr Hinn, oh no, can't get that shiny white suit dirty. He had a few locals volunteer to touch the masses, while he channeled God. "God has spoken! God has HEALED that woman over there on the right in the red top.. yes.. YOU..no.. not you.. the other right.."..
Can't walk indeed. I wonder how much money she happened to have 'donated' for the pleasure.
Hi Bells. I am a little confused as to why this topic is in the 'religion' forum, and not in the; 'morals and ethics' or even 'human science. Maybe you can enlighten me.
Jan.
So how are you going to legislate a priest giving counselling? Recommending prayers to those who are grieving? Giving holy water to his parish people when they come to him?
And then go on to say, a yogi who mixes herbs based on traditional lore.
And then go on to say, a priest giving a talisman to whoever comes to him with grievances?
Come on SAM, have you no common sense. A priest is not making explicit promises when he recommends praying. Counselling is an informal procees and counsellors of repute have gone through some form of training and , at least, here, are affiliated to a professional body which sets standards.
They offer no guarantees in return for enormous fees; merely an offer of help.
The people I'm talking about are those who claim the ability to heal. They should be subjected to scrutiny and made to demonstrate the powers they claim to have. Is that asking too much ?
Have you checked out "survival of the fittest yet" ? It could b the frst step to seeing the world in a whole new light. If, having tasted Darwin, you can find flaws in what he and sebsequent evolutionists are saying, you will be free to criticize them from a base of knowledge rather than ignorance. Why not give it a tryu ?
Come on SAM, have you no common sense. A priest is not making explicit promises when he recommends praying. Counselling is an informal procees and counsellors of repute have gone through some form of training and , at least, here, are affiliated to a professional body which sets standards.
They offer no guarantees in return for enormous fees; merely an offer of help.
The people I'm talking about are those who claim the ability to heal. They should be subjected to scrutiny and made to demonstrate the powers they claim to have. Is that asking too much ?
Depends on what your motive is.
Have you checked out "survival of the fittest yet" ? It could b the frst step to seeing the world in a whole new light. If, having tasted Darwin, you can find flaws in what he and sebsequent evolutionists are saying, you will be free to criticize them from a base of knowledge rather than ignorance. Why not give it a tryu ?
Been there done that.
I was using the lay definition. If the public wants, the public gets. The fittest in terms of public approval, survive.
My apologies. What I meant to say that I think some of these people do deserve some pity.
Part of me wants to agree with you and Lori. Sometimes I think my cousin is an idiot for having bought into it. Hell, she is an idiot for having bought into it. But then I start to think about how desperate some actually are and how through that desperation, they are completely taken advantage of.
I mean, that just makes me want to cry.
Bells, your sympathy is understandable. I too am sympathetic to anyone who suffers regardless of the reason. Empathetic...I mean, we all suffer in one way or another. And I also sympathize with people who are naive. I mean, I tend to believe just about anything people tell me. I'm just not a very skeptical person, and I never want to think that people are lying. But there is something to be said for having some common sense, especially where all your money is concerned. These people are looking at the same guy we are. The one with the hairspray, the white suits, and all the jewelry. These people have to take some accountability as to their dealings with God. If you're going to Him, it's a good idea to know Him or something about Him. The Bible is a readily available source. He Himself is a readily available source. Does it really make sense that you should have to pay to be healed? Is this something Jesus practiced? Is it really necessary to have a middle man? I mean, God does the healing, not Benny. I think Jesus was a special consideration to this principle, but I know that I experienced what I called a miracle...one that had a very tangible and obvious effect on my body...while sitting on my couch at home all by myself. He changed me in my bed overnight. I didn't need Benny Hinn or anyone else. I also didn't pray to be changed or healed. The miracle was a result of me praying to help someone else, and the healing was a "side effect" if you will. Benny is an event coordinator you know? It's the power of God that heals people, not his power. And you know, I don't necessarily think that all of the healings that go on in those arenas are fake. I don't know, but it seems to me to be a matter of faith and God's will. If you believe that God can find a way then maybe He will. Maybe it's not His will. Maybe people should be a little more in tune with God personally and have faith in Him to do what's right by them. I wonder...are you afraid that Benny's not going to "get his". Are you afraid that there is no justice in this universe? That humans are responsible for this justice (come on!)? I honestly believe that one day, somewhere, the scales will be in perfect balance. And no one, not even Benny Hinn, will be able to turn away from the truth anymore. And that is for each of us, and all of us...
You know, talking about this reminds me of that Bible parable about the leper or beggar that sat outside the rich man's house his whole life suffering. Then when they both died, the leper went to heaven and the rich man to hell, and their situations were reversed from what they were in life. Was that Lazarus?
And you know, at least Benny Hinn's not out there bashing people in the knees with a baseball bat or poking them in the eyes,and then making them pay to get out of a their wheelchairs or get their sight back like our FDA. In bed with pharmaceutical companies, they poison us through our food supply and then make us pay out the ass for drugs that don't cure us, because there's no money in curing people, but instead, drugs that inhibit our symptoms enough to prolong our lives and thus making us dependent on them for life.
Let's face it...sickness and suffering is big business. People need to protect themselves.
Depends on what your motive is.
Been there done that.
I was using the lay definition. If the public wants, the public gets. The fittest in terms of public approval, survive.
No, it does not. Claims should be tested. That's when the charlatans will disappear. The sincere, misguided or not, should have no problems.
You still do not have the correct definition of " survival of the fittest " correct. I asked you to define it in terms of evolutionary theory. If you wish to ignore it, then that is your privelige in a secular society. But please use it correctly or don't udse it at all.
And you know, at least Benny Hinn's not out there bashing people in the knees with a baseball bat or poking them in the eyes,and then making them pay to get out of a their wheelchairs or get their sight back like our FDA. In bed with pharmaceutical companies, they poison us through our food supply and then make us pay out the ass for drugs that don't cure us, because there's no money in curing people, but instead, drugs that inhibit our symptoms enough to prolong our lives and thus making us dependent on them for life.
Let's face it...sickness and suffering is big business. People need to protect themselves.
So, what do you propose ?
No, it does not. Claims should be tested. That's when the charlatans will disappear. The sincere, misguided or not, should have no problems.
You still do not have the correct definition of " survival of the fittest " correct. I asked you to define it in terms of evolutionary theory. If you wish to ignore it, then that is your privelige in a secular society. But please use it correctly or don't udse it at all.
Like I said, I'm using the lay definition. Suck it up. :)
SAM, i think perhaps you may feel that 'lay definition' is what you call your version.
So, what do you propose ?
Don't trust the government to inform you or take care of you or act in your best interest when it comes to your health or anything else for that matter.
I myself am a vegan. I eat almost all organic food. I filter my water. I read up on health and nutrition information on the internet or many alternative and holistic health sources. I exercise. I eat whole foods, and primarily raw, so I don't eat processed, preserved, toxified crap. I don't drink soda. I don't eat processed sugar. I don't smoke (anymore). My vice is beer. And if I have a concern about my health, I seek alternative, holistic remedies and specialists.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=law+of+the+jungle
Like I said, I'm using the lay definition. Suck it up. :)
Can I take it that's why you do not know the correct definition ? Your advice to " suck it up" is not particularly helpful. I asked you a question and you have nor answered. I wonder why.
Can I take it that's why you do not know the correct definition ? Your advice to " suck it up" is not particularly helpful. I asked you a question and you have nor answered. I wonder why.
Perhaps because I already covered it. And yeah I know the lay definition. And the scientific one, though biologists prefer natural selection, seeing as Darwin was using a metaphoric term coined by Spencer. If you dont www.google.com
Perhaps because I already covered it. And yeah I know the lay definition. And the scientific one, though biologists prefer natural selection, seeing as Darwin was using a metaphoric term coined by Spencer. If you dont www.google.com
So do you believe in evolution ? If not, why not ?
Don't trust the government to inform you or take care of you or act in your best interest when it comes to your health or anything else for that matter.
I myself am a vegan. I eat almost all organic food. I filter my water. I read up on health and nutrition information on the internet or many alternative and holistic health sources. I exercise. I eat whole foods, and primarily raw, so I don't eat processed, preserved, toxified crap. I don't drink soda. I don't eat processed sugar. I don't smoke (anymore). My vice is beer. And if I have a concern about my health, I seek alternative, holistic remedies and specialists.
Well, I just hope you never gety seriously ill. What does alternatice medicine do for a broken leg ?
Well, I just hope you never gety seriously ill. What does alternatice medicine do for a broken leg ?
I never get sick.
They put a cast on it.
If you were asking what I suggest we do about our government...revolution.
shorty_37
02-18-08, 06:34 PM
I never get sick.
Never say Never!
Never say Never!
I think he knows something we don't.
shorty_37
02-18-08, 06:56 PM
I myself am a vegan. I eat almost all organic food. I filter my water. I read up on health and nutrition information on the internet or many alternative and holistic health sources. I exercise. I eat whole foods, and primarily raw, so I don't eat processed, preserved, toxified crap. I don't drink soda. I don't eat processed sugar. I don't smoke (anymore). My vice is beer. And if I have a concern about my health, I seek alternative, holistic remedies and specialists.
This sounds alot like a friend I used to have. She never smoked though, and didn't drink either. Everything was organic, super healthy, no aspertame or anything else.......etc.
One day she was diagnosed with breast cancer. She is no longer alive.
She was only 40. That is why I say Never Say Never!
She was religious too, went to church every sunday etc.
God couldn't save her from the hell she lived the last few months.
I never get sick.
They put a cast on it.
If you were asking what I suggest we do about our government...revolution.
Would that be one of those alternative plaster casts ?
One day she was diagnosed with breast cancer. She is no longer alive.
She was only 40. That is why I say Never Say Never!
She was religious too, went to church every sunday etc.
God couldn't save her from the hell she lived the last few months.
That is the "Stendrix Phenomenon". One of the great unknowns.
This sounds alot like a friend I used to have. She never smoked though, and didn't drink either. Everything was organic, super healthy, no aspertame or anything else.......etc.
One day she was diagnosed with breast cancer. She is no longer alive.
She was only 40. That is why I say Never Say Never!
She was religious too, went to church every sunday etc.
God couldn't save her from the hell she lived the last few months.
That's nice. :confused: I mean, I'm sorry about your friend but am wondering what your point might be...
This world is so toxic that cancer is an epidemic. Nobody really cares why. So are obesity, heart disease, and diabetes. And nobody really cares why. I can imagine someone lying in a hospital bed after having one of their feet cut off from the effects of diabetes and begging a friend or family member to run and get them some McDonalds cause the hospital food is too shitty (which is true, the hospital food isn't much better). I wonder how many people stop to get fast food on the way home from dialysis. ADHD is epidemic in our kids and nobody cares why. How about the fact that they're raised in front of a television and video game and their brain suffers the consequences when it's in a normal environment? How about all the sugar and excitotoxins and food coloring we pump into them everyday? When I was a waitress, I would have to watch parents feeding their kids all this sugar and toxic shit everyday, and I felt like I was an accomplice to child abuse. People will feed kids macaroni and cheese, french fries, and lemonade for dinner and they get away with it.
shorty_37
02-19-08, 08:17 AM
My point is. You can live a very clean life. No alchohol, drugs, smoking, extremely healthy diet, exercise regularly etc... and still end up sick.
It is funny one day we were watching the news. It was this womans 103 birthday.
They asked her what she did in her life to live so long. She said nothing. She smoked and she drank Sunny Delight ( Some orange drink filled with nothing but chemicals)
My point is. You can live a very clean life. No alchohol, drugs, smoking, extremely healthy diet, exercise regularly etc... and still end up sick.
It is funny one day we were watching the news. It was this womans 103 birthday.
They asked her what she did in her life to live so long. She said nothing. She smoked and she drank Sunny Delight ( Some orange drink filled with nothing but chemicals)
well the reason i asked is because certainly you know that generally, the way you take care of yourself, ie nutrition and fitness, and maintaining a positive physical, mental, and emotional environment contributes directly and greatly to your health. of course there are exceptional cases, but like i said, there's such a wide variety of factors, and they are cumulative, to the point of even being genetic. i mean we've been destroying ourselves and our environment since the fall of man. that's a long cumulative period. most children are born with genetic predispositions and illnesses. but MY point is, why not do what you can? with me, it's not a fear of dying, or the idea that i could never get sick. it's a matter of doing the right thing just because it's the right thing to do. and just to note, that the illnesses and conditions that i referred to have in fact reached epidemic levels as of recently, within a generation or two and can be directly attributable to unhealthy nutrition, lifestyle, and environment.
Would that be one of those alternative plaster casts ?
i think they're made out of hemp and recyclable. :m:
listen, i got to thinking about what you said about hoping i never get sick and it occurred to me that you might think i'm one of those freaks that allow their kids and selves to die because they refuse medical treatment. i'm not crazy, and i'm not stupid. i know lots of times people want me to be because i claim to be a christian, but i'm not. sorry. i'm pretty damn rational. i would go to a normal doctor for a broken leg or an injury. and i would go to one for other reasons as well, like a diagnosis, and to treat symptoms until i could recover. my point is though, that most doctors aren't trained to cure people, but only to treat symptoms. for example, a normal doctor would diagnose someone as a diabetic and prescribe dialysis. a holistic doctor would explain why you're a diabetic and cure you of it. that is if you were willing to make the prescribed diet and lifestyle changes. and before you say it, a raw vegan diet, including no sugar or alchohol, has been shown to completely cure a 21 year diabetic. if you don't believe me then i urge you to watch the trailer for a documentary that's not released yet called "30 Days Raw". you can find it on youtube, or i have it on my myspace page http://www.myspace.com/penguinlove7. i have lots of cool videos on my page actually. the trailer i'm talking about is shown under my "interests", and "i want to heal people", and has a picture of Ronald McDonald in the frame. This film is the antithesis of the movie "Supersize Me".
Asguard
02-19-08, 06:31 PM
Try the CSIRO diat. Its the only one i have ever seen that is SCIENTICALLY tested to be good for you. Of course its not really a diet, the difference is that if you want to lose weight you dont eat potatoes and pasta with your meals.
Also i hate to tell you but have you ever herd of the diabetics diet?
Further more im ASSUMING your talking about type 2 diabites because type 1 is incurable, with our current tech (although there is a treatment being trialed using a pig pancrius and seaweed)
the vegan diet is actually bad for you. Yes some people manage to live on it but then some people manage to live on only McDonads to. The vegatarian is ok because your getting the protien from eggs and chicken, the calcium from milk and most importantly the essential fatty acids that are only abundently avialable in seafood
The best diet however (especially for a women) is one that includes lean red meat. Why is this? Because women are VERY suseptable to anemia caused by iron deficancy and lean red meat with a little drisle of lemon juice is an abundent sorce of Iron. As well as protine and alot of other vital things
CSIRO diet is 100 grams of either fish or meat (on alternitive days) for lunch and 200g of fish or meat for dinner (the oposite to what you had for lunch)
Its REALLY health, how do i know?
I was low on alot of vitimans and minerals untill my partner starter eating this. I was doing it to because the food is delicious and i didnt want to lose weight so i added pasta ect. My V&M levels went straight back to normal in a matter of weeks:)
Hi Bells. I am a little confused as to why this topic is in the 'religion' forum, and not in the; 'morals and ethics' or even 'human science. Maybe you can enlighten me.
Jan.
I had a brain fart.
I think people have a right to choose the kind of treatment they want. Many people favor alternative medicine in India and many others prefer to go to faith healers. Many prefer not to go to a doctor at all and avoid their medicines as something unnatural. Still others live lives as ascetics or abandon their homes and lives for enlightenment. In India, we believe in allowing people to be, even if we disagree with them. Maybe, at some point, we will become enlightened enough to sneer at them and then they can all join the great monoculture.
I think people are entitled to pay Hinn if they want. Its a choice they make for their beliefs like those who make offerings to deities in temples and expect to be healed.
Ok. How can I put this...
Do you think it is right for people like Hinn to ask for and then say it is God who asks for the money? And then telling them that when God asks for money, people who believe should obey? Do you think it is right for a supposed minister and faith healer to tell sick people that if they truly believe, they will fork up the cash and then they will be healed? And then go on to encourage those people to stop their medical treatment because they have supposedly been healed?
I mean seriously, how much does God charge for a miracle these days?
As an atheist, I have to agree with Rabbi Harold S. Kushner:
"I hope there is a special place in Hell for people who try and enrich themselves on the suffering of others. To tantalize the blind, the lame, the dying, the afflicted, the terminally ill, to dangle hope before parents of a severely afflicted child, is an indescribably cruel thing to do, and to do it in the name of God, to do it in the name of religion, I think, is unforgivable."
Link (http://csicop.org/si/2002-05/i-files.html)
And that's saying something, believe me. I don't even believe in 'hell'.
So how are you going to legislate a priest giving counselling? Recommending prayers to those who are grieving? Giving holy water to his parish people when they come to him?
And then go on to say, a yogi who mixes herbs based on traditional lore.
And then go on to say, a priest giving a talisman to whoever comes to him with grievances?
There's nothing wrong with that. There is something wrong with having someone tell sick people that God is demanding they give money and then going on to tell them that they can stop all of their medical treatments because they are healed. There is something wrong with leading people to believe that the more they give to one's ministry, the more they believe and the more miracles will come their way. No priest I have ever known has ever said anything like that.
Try the CSIRO diat. Its the only one i have ever seen that is SCIENTICALLY tested to be good for you. Of course its not really a diet, the difference is that if you want to lose weight you dont eat potatoes and pasta with your meals.
Also i hate to tell you but have you ever herd of the diabetics diet?
Further more im ASSUMING your talking about type 2 diabites because type 1 is incurable, with our current tech (although there is a treatment being trialed using a pig pancrius and seaweed)
the vegan diet is actually bad for you. Yes some people manage to live on it but then some people manage to live on only McDonads to. The vegatarian is ok because your getting the protien from eggs and chicken, the calcium from milk and most importantly the essential fatty acids that are only abundently avialable in seafood
The best diet however (especially for a women) is one that includes lean red meat. Why is this? Because women are VERY suseptable to anemia caused by iron deficancy and lean red meat with a little drisle of lemon juice is an abundent sorce of Iron. As well as protine and alot of other vital things
CSIRO diet is 100 grams of either fish or meat (on alternitive days) for lunch and 200g of fish or meat for dinner (the oposite to what you had for lunch)
Its REALLY health, how do i know?
I was low on alot of vitimans and minerals untill my partner starter eating this. I was doing it to because the food is delicious and i didnt want to lose weight so i added pasta ect. My V&M levels went straight back to normal in a matter of weeks:)
you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. this isn't something i've done on a whim. there's a ton of research that's been done, and living testimonies, and i'm one of them. i'm 40 years old and i am healthier than i have ever been in my life. and i'm surrounded by sick people everywhere. and i'm not talking about working in a hospital, i'm talking about the average and entire population. overweight, diabetic, cancer, heart disease, allergies, asthma, bronchitis, colds, flus, headaches, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, and the list goes on and on. i'm surrounded everywhere i go, i'm the only healthy person in just about every group or environment i'm a part of. it's startling...
Asguard
02-20-08, 06:39 PM
so you are assuming based on what? that its the fact that they are not vegan that is causing this?
I have seen vegans end up in hospital because they arnt getting enough of the vitimens, minerals and ameno acids that they need. Im sorry whats YOUR qualification to change the premure science insitute in the country?
You do realise what CSIRO is dont you?
Asguard
02-20-08, 06:52 PM
How the Total Wellbeing Diet was researched
The CSIRO Total Wellbeing Diet was created after accumulating evidence from several clinical trials conducted at CSIRO.
The more traditional low fat high carbohydrate diets for weight loss had been challenged by alternative dietary approaches such as very low carbohydrate (Atkins), moderately high protein (ZONE) or low glycemic index diets.
However, the emerging body of CSIRO and international research confirmed that varying the protein to carbohydrate ratio during weight loss appeared to have a number of subtle benefits which may result in greater fat loss and sparing of lean body mass.
CSIRO has conducted several of the largest studies showing that higher protein dietary patterns for weight management have metabolic advantages over high carbohydrate patterns in overweight people.
The results clearly showed health benefits and significant weight loss from a diet higher in proteins and low in fats and the Total Wellbeing Diet was born.
After many requests for further information it was decided to publish the Total Wellbeing Diet, which became a best seller with over 700 000 copies sold.
Find out more about the Total Wellbeing Diet.
Viewed 21/02/08 at 10:14 (http://www.csiro.au/science/ps2gg.html)
Some more SCIENTIFIC resurch on the CSIRO diet
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15007396?dopt=AbstractPlus
shorty_37
02-20-08, 07:07 PM
My friend did the Atkins diet a couple yrs ago. She had been taking all kinds of prescriptions for her high sugar, blood pressure, and something else can't remember off hand.
After doing the Atkins ( high protein low carb)for 6 mnths her blood work came back so great the doctor took her off all the pills. He said her bloodwork couldn't have been any better.
Asguard
02-20-08, 08:22 PM
actually shorty the atkins diet is VERY dangiours. The lack of vitmens and minerals that you get on it can kill you
CSIRO is a low carb (although if your not trying to lose weight like me you add some potatoes or pasta) HIGH proteen, LOW fat diet. Its not actually a diet at all in that sence of the word its a healthy eating plan. You can eat it everyday for the rest of your life and be healthy. In fact it even includes achole and snacks in set amounts:)
Its split up into what a woman should eat to lose weight at a healthy rate, what a women should eat normally, what a man should eat to lose weight at a healthy rate and what a man should eat normally. The difference in the amounts being the serving size of carbs basically
Its also REALLY tastie food:)
iceaura
02-20-08, 10:17 PM
Telling them that faith healers are like bad money.
Maybe you think that laws will change their minds? You have got to be kidding me.
Couldn't find a cop willing to take on those guys. Looks like the river flows for everyone. Is there some kind of admission charge, or what is the problem ?
Would you conceal from them that faith healers are like bad money ? Would you at least recommend that they not put their faces in the water ?
Some situations, like the fountain at Lourdes, are beyond the small resources of the law.
Some aren't.
Faith healers are like bad money. Is it OK to say that, even if a lot of people are willing to take bad money ? Is it OK to attempt to curb counterfeiting ?
so you are assuming based on what? that its the fact that they are not vegan that is causing this?
I have seen vegans end up in hospital because they arnt getting enough of the vitimens, minerals and ameno acids that they need. Im sorry whats YOUR qualification to change the premure science insitute in the country?
You do realise what CSIRO is dont you?
no, that they eat a steady diet of sugar, fat, and chemicals and get next to no exercise. you can be a vegan and do that too. some vegans live (for a while) on processed sugar, pasta, and beer. and yeah, you'll end up in the hospital probably if you eat like that. and i'm also not talking about dieting to achieve a certain body type (other than healthy). i'm not talking about losing weight or reducing body fat or whatever. though i think if you have healthy eating habits, your body would show that. do you have any idea what's actually IN all the meat you're suggesting people eat? meat is laden with antibiotics, growth hormones, and steroids. why? because the animals are not viable without them due to their poor quality of life prior to slaughter. our fish and seafood is filled with pharmaceutical waste and mercury. and even our vegetables (if they're not organic) are laden with hundreds of different chemical fertilizers and insecticides, and many are now genetically modified. why? because we've raped our planet and our soil is depleted and they wouldn't grow otherwise. and the fact that they do grow, and appear to be healthy doesn't mean they have any nutrient value...it's all been spent. and there's the cyclical nature of the industry that's continually raping the planet all in the name of greed, and spewing these pollutants and chemical waste all over the place. then there's the fact that i would lose my life before i would want to contribute to a system that treats other sentient beings the way our industries treat animals for consumption. it's disgusting and deplorable and is indicative of the absolute disregard most people have for this planet, for god, and for life. i dare you to watch the movie "earthlings", because it shows the norm of exactly what i'm talking about here. AND all other arguements aside, i don't see why another being should have to lose their life for me to have mine. so if the death of an animal is not necessary for me to live, then why should i perpetuate such a thing? human beings are planetary parasites.
Asguard
02-21-08, 04:13 PM
in case you hadn't noticed your in a science section. I sugest you back up your assertions before a mod comes along and deletes them for being incorect. Australian cattle and sheep are NOT injected with hormones, nor are our chickens. I ALWAYS by free range meat, how do you tell? if you look at the meat and the fat is along the outside of the meat then its free range, if its marbled through the meaakt then the animal is penned in and grain feed. Do i agree with this treatment of animals? no i dont
Also i know exactly what goes into my meat because alot of it comes straight from the farm, my grandmother is a farmer and we used to get our lamb straight out of her padock. No hormones, infact nothing EXCEPT grass and maybe an antibotic if the animal became sick and needed treatment.
Oh and whats your shoes made out of?
flameofanor5
02-21-08, 06:49 PM
I can't stand fakes like this guy...
in case you hadn't noticed your in a science section. I sugest you back up your assertions before a mod comes along and deletes them for being incorect. Australian cattle and sheep are NOT injected with hormones, nor are our chickens. I ALWAYS by free range meat, how do you tell? if you look at the meat and the fat is along the outside of the meat then its free range, if its marbled through the meaakt then the animal is penned in and grain feed. Do i agree with this treatment of animals? no i dont
Also i know exactly what goes into my meat because alot of it comes straight from the farm, my grandmother is a farmer and we used to get our lamb straight out of her padock. No hormones, infact nothing EXCEPT grass and maybe an antibotic if the animal became sick and needed treatment.
Oh and whats your shoes made out of?
i don't buy leather, and thou shalt not kill.
Asguard
02-21-08, 09:47 PM
thou art just an animal and there art no god:)
thou art just an animal and there art no god:)
profound.
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