View Full Version : No religion can believe in an eternal soul
Christianity, or more specifically the Bible, states that the spirits of humans were created by God in God's image. To be created means that they must not have existed before, so human spirits (and angels for that matter) can't possibly be eternal because eternity goes in both directions.
In Buddhism they just say up front that there is no such thing as an invisible thing called a soul, and especially one which is eternal.
In Hinduism and Islam, souls are created as well, and this creation process never stops. Again, if something was created than it can't be eternal.
I just thought it was interesting to point out that many religions say that the soul is eternal, but it can't be since it was created. And if the saying, "Anything that has a beginning has an end" has any merit, then there is something to be said about an eternal soul that was created, especially created by another being.
Basically, if we have an invisible thing called a soul/spirit/whatever, than it really isn't eternal by nature. Since we had a beginning, we can have an end (namely, God can end it if he began it).
Buddhism says precisely that you have a choice on what you wish for, including eternal soul
Ya, but in Buddhism when you die as a human, you die as an individual personal soul forever. The same personal ego is not reborn in a new body after you die, like in Hinduism. So, no, Buddhism cannot offer an eternal personal soul no matter how hard you wish. Please provide a source which says otherwise about Buddhist beliefs though to correct me if I am wrong.
Ya, but in Buddhism when you die as a human, you as an indivdual die forever. The same personal ego is not reborn in a new body after you die, like in Hinduism. So, no, Buddhism cannot offer an eternal personal soul no matter how hard you wish. Please provide a source which says otherwise about Buddhist beliefs though to correct me if I am wrong.
well you first provide where you are getting this ego thing dying. Because that precisely what buddhism is about, reincarnation or feeling of self uniqueness without the memory but with consciousness of self.
Spirit and soul are two different things. Soul is mind/will/emotion. The Bible says your spirit is eternal. I believe it. It also says we are spirits, we live in bodies, and we have souls. :)
Sandy, Genesis contains two accounts of the creation.
Account 1
Gen 1:26-28
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
Account 2
Gen 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Why the two different accounts of creation? What did the first one represent?
Also, did God create each individual spirit? If not how did our spirits come into existence?
Those are the same things, different versions.
I believe God created each spirit. The Bible says he *knows* us all so deeply He knows the number of hairs on our heads.
I can't answer your eternity beginning question though. That's a good one. It's kind of like God is the great "I am". He always was, always will be...
Maybe we always were spirits but we just had no concept of it until God gave us our souls and put us into our bodies?:shrug:
pjdude1219
02-11-08, 12:46 PM
i always thought it was immortal soul not eternal soul
Yeah but if we were always spirits than one could ask, "Did God create us intentionally or did we exist kind of as a by product of God (like in Hinduism)"
I always thought that in Christianity God created human spirits for a specific purpose either in response to Satan's fall or for some other reason (he was lonely). Either way, the Chritian belief is that God intentionally created us as oppoed to Hinduism where we are byproducts of God.
So if we have a beginning then we can have an end, right? I don't know.
Either way, I like the Christian idea of retaining one's indivduality in the afterlife as opposed to Buddhism or some sects of Hinduism. I don't like the idea of not existing.
Just out of curiosity though Sandy, I believe that no human has the capacity to believe anything 100% or have 100% faith (maybe even Jesus with the "why have you forsaken me" comment). The Bible seems to describe different measures of faith. Do you agree that no human, with the possible exception of Jesus can have or has ever had 100% belief in God, or in anything for that matter? Thanks for your thoughts.
I can only speak for myself. I have 100% faith in God. When He tells me to do something, I do it no matter how odd it seems. :eek: I would do anything for Him. Anything. :)
All I'm saying is that Jesus at point says, "For assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you."
I don't know about you, but I haven't seen any mountains moved by a human lately. This tells me that humans have little faith, but all God asks from us is a small amount of faith, or just to try to believe at the very least.
I can't make myself fully believe anything. I can kind of make myself believe that I fully believe something, or in otherwords I can convince myself and tell myself that I believe something, but that doesn't make it so.
From my reading of the bible, it seems like guys like Paul always talk about levels of faith, strong or weak faith, etc.
In either case, what do these verses tell us about the nature of faith:
36 Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to the disciples, "Sit here while I go and pray over there." 37 And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed. 38 Then He said to them, "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me." 39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, "O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You will."
NKJV
In this case Jesus is clearly distressed. If he had 100% faith that he was the Son of God and could truly bear the burden of all man's sins then he would not have been distressed at all. He wouldn't have had to pray three times to ask God to help him overcome his human doubt. This is why I think it is dangerous and incorrect to think that humans with our limited souls (not spirits) could possibly believe in God 100%, or have 100% faith. It seems like God made it that way for a reason (if people had 100% faith then there would be no free will?).
46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" 47 Some of those who stood there, when they heard that, said, "This Man is calling for Elijah!"
NKJV
In this verse, Jesus asks why have you forsaken me to God. Clearly there was some doubt, as incredibly small as it was, in his mind that God had somehow left him out to dry. But in the end, this last temptation was overcame. If Jesus, or more specifically the human Jesus (not his spirit), had 100% faith, then there would be no "last temptation".
14 Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."
NKJV
So here, not even the disciples who witnessed ALL of the amazing miracles of Jesus didn't believe (or at least was far from 100% faith, very far). In fact they are constantly rebuked throughout their walk with Jesus about how little their faith was.
So, Sandy, I can't see how anyone could possibly claim to have 100% faith in God, because to me the Bible is telling us that it really isn't possible so long as our spirits our stuck in these bodies.
I just don't see how any human could know anything for sure, or believe things which can't be verified by the senses 100% (such as the string theory, multiple universe theory, God, etc.)
To say you have 100% faith is like saying you KNOW that God exists or that Jesus was the true Son of God. No one can say they "know" anything for sure. According to the Bible, only God is omnicient. I could think that gloabal warming is not caused by mankind, but I would be fooling myself if I said that I knew it wasn't being caused by man. It is impossible to know anything, and in many cases to believe anything, for sure.
jayleew
02-11-08, 01:58 PM
Basically, if we have an invisible thing called a soul/spirit/whatever, than it really isn't eternal by nature. Since we had a beginning, we can have an end (namely, God can end it if he began it).
Good point for the most part, but I would challenge that if something has a beginning it must have an end. Which theory is that? (no sarcasm intended)
I mean have we proven the universe had a beginning yet? I know there is a theory that actually it is in a pendulum state of existence.
It just seems you are limiting your scope a bit, like you are filtering existence with a set of rules and nothing can break them. The universe is not that tested yet. We don't know limits of time and space yet.
I believe if there was a god, that we should not be able to grasp the concepts to create life from only chemicals...much less a concept of a soul.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but I don't think you can prove that spirits do not exist. I don't believe in them and would agree that they do not exist based on the lack of evidence, but I don't have any evidence that there is or is not any spirits. Though, I do enjoy watching the original Ghost Hunters. :o
Good point for the most part, but I would challenge that if something has a beginning it must have an end. Which theory is that? (no sarcasm intended)
Ya, I should have said, "If something has a beginning, it CAN have an end." Your right, that doesn't mean that it has to have an end. I guess I was trying to say that every religion which believes in a God believes that this God created us (or we are byproduct of God). So this means that our spirits, if they were truly created by a god are not eternal or immortal by nature. Instead, it would mean that God controls how long our spirits exist. So, right, if he doesn't kill our spirits for the rest of eternity then we may never die, but the substance or thing that is our individual spirits cannot be eternal on its own.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but I don't think you can prove that spirits do not exist. I don't believe in them and would agree that they do not exist based on the lack of evidence, but I don't have any evidence that there is or is not any spirits. Though, I do enjoy watching the original Ghost Hunters. :o
I'm kind of in the same boat. I don't say I know that spirits exist, but I can't deny them either. In fact there is a large amount of evidence for an afterlife or at least for the ability of some mediums. It's all very interesting. I truly wish I had 100% faith in something, but I don't, and I don't think that's possible. From my point of view, I see errors or things that don't seem right in all religions and maybe there's an aspect of truth to every religion as well. But, like you, I'm open to anything.
well you first provide where you are getting this ego thing dying. Because that precisely what buddhism is about, reincarnation or feeling of self uniqueness without the memory but with consciousness of self.
My source is a book called "Ethics" by Lawrence M. Hinman. In describing Buddhism on page 76 he states the following:
The dominant metaphor that Buddhists use is that of the passing of a flame from one candle to another. The personal self moves through the wheel of existence in the same way the candle moves from one flame to another:It is both the same flame and yet a different flame. So the same personal ego is not reborn in a different body; instead some spark of life passes on to a new body.
In this sense, there is no consequences for our actions because "we" as we know ourselves won't exist after we die! So why not enjoy life to the fullest while your here? Surely pleasure can't be had without some pain, but if you become a monk and shack yourself up then you have no chance at experiencing any pleasure.
Sandy, Genesis contains two accounts of the creation.
Account 1
Gen 1:26-28
26 Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." 27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
Account 2
Gen 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
Why the two different accounts of creation? What did the first one represent?
Also, did God create each individual spirit? If not how did our spirits come into existence?
i'm confused, as these scriptures are describing the creation of our physical bodies, not the creation of our spirits. maybe all our spirits are part of god.
nova900
02-13-08, 01:21 PM
maybe all our spirits are part of god.
That's what I believe.
Near Death accounts seem to suggest the same thing.
well than this Lawrence is wrong...NDS
well than this Lawrence is wrong...NDS
Maybe so, but that is your opinion. he may be wrong. He may be right. I mean, I'm sure he did some research before just writing that in there. He interviewed people like the Dalai Lama for this book, who seems to say that indeed people don't have invisible things called spirits.
The Dalai Lama, obviously a great Buddhist, says in his book "Ethics for a new millennium," on page 43, the following:
"The word "self" does not denote an independant object. Rather it is a label for a complex web of interrelated phenomena"
So Lawrence and one of the most knowledgable Buddhists of our time both agree that there is no soul/spirit.
i'm confused, as these scriptures are describing the creation of our physical bodies, not the creation of our spirits. maybe all our spirits are part of god.
Yeah, maybe that's true but if Genesis 1 wasn't the creation of the spirits of humans then when did the Christian God create all of the individual human spirits? If he didn't create us, then we have no purpose (Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.)
That's what I believe.
Near Death accounts seem to suggest the same thing.
ND experiences are no more than electrochemical activity in the limbic system of the brain. It can be produced by stimulating the brain with electricity.
nova900
02-13-08, 06:33 PM
ND experiences are no more than electrochemical activity in the limbic system of the brain. It can be produced by stimulating the brain with electricity.
True, some of the "symptoms" of NDEs...the tunnel, the light,floating sensation,out of body experience,but ...it does not explain that there appear to be recognizable and repeatable themes or things revealed to people throughout them despite differences in the details of the account and the fact they encompass a wide variety of people,believers as well as non-believers. Sort of like the same TV episode but presented somewhat differently each time.
I understand the work that Blackmore and Karl Jansen and others have done on it but it still doesn't seem to account for these re-occuring themes.
I'm ultimately open to the possibility that they are just the dying brain undergoing a complex set of chemical reactions but my intuition tells me otherwise.
Gen 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.It is strongly suspected that the concept of a soul or spirit came from the observation that a dead person is no longer breathing and that the "breath" was the life force and had departed. The derivation of soul/spirit comes from air or breath.
This erroneous notion went on to give rise to all the other wonderful imaginative ideas about evil spirits floating around in the air and that you could breath one in and be possessed, etc.
The biblical quote above emphasizes the nonsense that "life force / spirit / soul" are derived from some ethereal air-like entity.
In the many millenia that such nonsense prevailed many variations of this theme were espoused and refined, and became the source of the duality fantasies that now prevail in religions and similar superstitions.
All of that was to some extent understandable before we realized that personalities, thoughts, emotions, mind, are all generated by neural networks that have entirely physical characteristics. This knowledge is only decades old and it will unfortunately take a while to dispel the soul nonsense that has developed over the past several thousands of years.
The question of whether a soul is eternal is as useful as discussing whether Micky Mouse could ever become president.
Souls/spirits don't exist folks. The idea is based on utter nonsense and ignorance and we should all move on.
True, some of the "symptoms" of NDEs...the tunnel, the light,floating sensation,out of body experience,but ...it does not explain that there appear to be recognizable and repeatable themes or things revealed to people throughout them despite differences in the details of the account and the fact they encompass a wide variety of people,believers as well as non-believers. Sort of like the same TV episode but presented somewhat differently each time.
I understand the work that Blackmore and Karl Jansen and others have done on it but it still doesn't seem to account for these re-occuring themes.
I'm ultimately open to the possibility that they are just the dying brain undergoing a complex set of chemical reactions but my intuition tells me otherwise.
Why do you think that the process may involve more than electrochemical activity in the brain because the phenomona associated with NDEs are similar? Might that not just be what one would expect given the commonality in the structures of all human brains ?
Yeah, maybe that's true but if Genesis 1 wasn't the creation of the spirits of humans then when did the Christian God create all of the individual human spirits? If he didn't create us, then we have no purpose (Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.)
When? Who knows? Who cares? What difference does it make? Of course we have a purpose or we wouldn't be here. God doesn't do anything futile. I think that time is a constraint here on earth, in the physical realm. But I get the impression that time does not exist in the spiritual realm...a concept that I can't necessarily comprehend, but since I'm here, that doesn't surprise me.
nova900
02-14-08, 08:09 AM
Why do you think that the process may involve more than electrochemical activity in the brain because the phenomona associated with NDEs are similar? Might that not just be what one would expect given the commonality in the structures of all human brains ?
As I mentioned,perhaps that is the case, but it doesn't convince me these re-occurring bits of information related to a broad spectrum of people during these accounts is just due to chemical reactions in the commonality of the human brain structure. I would think there would be greater variations in these themes as I call them ,such as litterally corruborating the Abrahamic God or any other in ancient mythology.
Some of the highlights of NDE's:
-there are various planes or spheres in the afterlife ranging from the earthly plane to the highest heavenly realms.
-God only cares about religion as far as its ability to bring you to the concept of God, and could care less about literal religous idealogies.
-Life exists on worlds all across the universe.
-We are all essentially part of God but in the dual state of our physical selves,we forget about our true origin as it is masked by the human ego.
-God created the universe to explore he/she self thru the multiplicity of trillions of events occurring at any one given time.
-There is no devil only the ignorance of the human ego or a state in the absence of God.
-God does not have anger fits over an atheists non belief..it's the spiritual state of your heart that's valued.
-Re-incarnation is real
-Most half decent people end up in the 3rd realm--1st heavenly realm.
anyways we will find out when we die.Even most of the hard core skeptics cannot know for sure they are bogus.
Why would you expect greater variations ? If there were such varitions would you no longer beieve that there was any deep significance in NDEs ?
nova900
02-14-08, 09:19 AM
Why would you expect greater variations ? If there were such varitions would you no longer beieve that there was any deep significance in NDEs ?
Then it would seem more of a projection of God as the mental construct of what they had believed God to be rather than something that conflicts with the idealogy they had been led to believe.
Yes, I would give less credence to them if there were greater variations.
Lori,
Of course we have a purpose or we wouldn't be here. Logical fallacy. Existence of something is not dependent on that something having a purpose.
And since there are countless speculations a to the purpose of life that tends to reveal that no one knows what that purpose is.
If there were to be a god and it had a purpose for us then what purpose could be served by not revealing our purpose to us.
I can only speak for myself. I have 100% faith in God. When He tells me to do something, I do it no matter how odd it seems. :eek: I would do anything for Him. Anything. :)
Would you kill your children if He tells you so ? :confused:
Sandy,
I have 100% faith in God. When He tells me to do something, I do it no matter how odd it seems. I would do anything for Him. Anything.By what means do you distinguish your certainty that a god talks to you and the characteristics of a personal delusion? Remember that those who suffer from delusion are equally convinced that what they claim is absolutely true.
There are certainly cases where mothers have killed their children because they believed a god told them to do so.
Without external independent evidence for the existence of a god your claims are indistinguishable to delusion. And since we have vast volumes of evidence for delusional behavior and absolutely zilch for the existence of gods, why then would you continue to persist with your assertions?
Lori,
Logical fallacy. Existence of something is not dependent on that something having a purpose.
And since there are countless speculations a to the purpose of life that tends to reveal that no one knows what that purpose is.
If there were to be a god and it had a purpose for us then what purpose could be served by not revealing our purpose to us.
i'm sorry, i will reiterate...from what i personally know of god, he does nothing in futility. the purpose is communion. and he does reveal that to some of us.
tablariddim
02-14-08, 04:48 PM
-God created the universe to explore he/she self thru the multiplicity of trillions of events occurring at any one given time.
I don't know where you got that from, but when I used to think more deeply about spirituality, god, purpose and what have you (a long time ago) I actually had an intuitively original thought that all life forms and even some non-life forms can be equated to 'the nerve endings' of the universe, i.e. the universe experiences its self through its self (the creation of everything). Now, if god is merely an ancient acronym for universe from a time when people didn't know any better, then one could say that god (universe) created everything (created itself) in order to feel, or more precisely, to be aware of itself.
Therefore, one could say that our purpose is to transmit our life 'events' experiences to the creator, which happens to be the universe and we do that merely by being alive. If there are life forms and specific non life forms scattered throughout the universe doing the same as us, it means it can have a handle on just about everything going on within it.
Just to anthropomorphise the universe even more, maybe it does this so that it can do a better job of it in V2.
I'm not implying that I fully, or even partly believe in this idea, but it was interesting that you mentioned a similar concept, though I can't see what it has to do with NDE's.
tablariddim
02-14-08, 04:52 PM
the purpose is communion.
Hmm... see my post above...maybe not communion in the sense you mean, but certainly communion.
nova900
02-14-08, 07:13 PM
I don't know where you got that from, but when I used to think more deeply about spirituality, god, purpose and what have you (a long time ago) I actually had an intuitively original thought that all life forms and even some non-life forms can be equated to 'the nerve endings' of the universe, i.e. the universe experiences its self through its self (the creation of everything). Now, if god is merely an ancient acronym for
.
Where did I get that from?
From reading literally hundreds of accounts of NDEs. It's one of those re-occuring themes I talked about.
In other words ...it was something told to people who asked the being of light or whoever they encountered...why God created the universe.
lightgigantic
02-14-08, 09:57 PM
In Hinduism ..... , souls are created as well, and this creation process never stops. Again, if something was created than it can't be eternal.
reference please
sounds like there is a confusion between the body and the soul
BG 2.20 BG 2.20: For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.
Christianity, or more specifically the Bible, states that the spirits of humans were created by God in God's image. To be created means that they must not have existed before, so human spirits (and angels for that matter) can't possibly be eternal because eternity goes in both directions.
Eternity going in both directions has no bearing on when something is created or begins, just because something is eternal "God" does not mean that everything is eternal. Your whole post is based on the above bolded quote so the basis of your argument is faulty and cannot be proven.
In Hinduism and Islam, souls are created as well, and this creation process never stops. Again, if something was created than it can't be eternal.
Again simply making a statement twice does not make it fact.
I just thought it was interesting to point out that many religions say that the soul is eternal, but it can't be since it was created.
So you say it a third time??? What are you trying to establish it as a fact by the technique of repition. LOL
Basically, if we have an invisible thing called a soul/spirit/whatever, than it really isn't eternal by nature. Since we had a beginning, we can have an end (namely, God can end it if he began it).
What? You have been saying that God has no choice in the matter, that if something is created it cannot exist forever after it was created, so that God could not keep a created being in existence forever.
But anyway, If it is Gods wills for a created being to exist forever after it's creation then the question of what God could do it irrelevant, Gods will is eternal.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
reference please
sounds like there is a confusion between the body and the soul
BG 2.20 BG 2.20: For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.
Thank you for the scripture text LG. It seems that there is one religion which may believe in an eternal soul: Hinduism.
Tell me though, how many spirits/souls (not bodies) exist right now? If you state that no new spirits/souls are ever created, then there must be a set number of individual spirits/souls in existence right now, right? This is all semantics and other unimportant shit but its fun to talk about and ponder.
So again, are new spirits/souls ever created according to your branch of Hinduism? If not, then at some point in time, is it possible that EVERY SINGLE SPIRIT/SOUL (not body) can reach Nirvana? If so, then what will the point of the physical realm (reincarnation, humans, animals) be since there will be no spirits to possess them?
This is fun to talk about to me. I'm not trying to disprove Hinduism or anything so don't take it that way (actually, I think Hinduism is very plausible in a lot of ways and makes sense in a lot of ways).
Eternity going in both directions has no bearing on when something is created or begins, just because something is eternal "God" does not mean that everything is eternal. Your whole post is based on the above bolded quote so the basis of your argument is faulty and cannot be proven.
Again simply making a statement twice does not make it fact.
So you say it a third time??? What are you trying to establish it as a fact by the technique of repition. LOL
What? You have been saying that God has no choice in the matter, that if something is created it cannot exist forever after it was created, so that God could not keep a created being in existence forever.
But anyway, If it is Gods wills for a created being to exist forever after it's creation then the question of what God could do it irrelevant, Gods will is eternal.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Adstar, thanks for the comments and basically saying that I'm a retard (I'll admit that I am partially retarded, lol). Anyway, please help me with this question:
God says in Genesis Chapter 1 verse 26,
"Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
NKJV
I was taught that that means he (they?) created the sprits of the humans here (male and female). And then later in Genesis 2 he creates physical man and puts the spirit of Adam (created in Gen. 1) into this physical man.
Think about it: According to Christianity, there will a finite and set number of spirits which will live as a human on earth. At some point, Jesus will end the physical realm/world/earth and will bring heaven down to earth.
Let's say that he returns on January 1, 2009. This would mean that X number of spirits have experienced life on earth. Let's say, just as an example, that exactly 1,304,402,494,202,282,282,029,029,202 individual spirits lived on earth starting from the Adam spirit's existence (the first spirit to live on earth in a human body).
Basically, I always thought that those exact number of spirits were created in Gen. 1 and that all those spirits waited in heaven until their turn to come down to earth. Is that accurate or way off?
Adstar, do you believe your spirit existed before you existed as a physical human? If so, that would support my interpretation of Gen. 1:26.
Note: All this discussion of eternal souls is trivial and doesn't prove or disprove anything. It's just fun to ponder. That's why we're all on this site right? To think and ponder what the hell reality we are in and the nature of reality.
In regards to the poll I just added, I frankly hate the idea of not existing. Call it bioloigcal or survival instinct, or whatever, but I do not want to not exist.
Tell me though, how many spirits/souls (not bodies) exist right now?
Infinite. All souls are actually part of one "supersoul" (God). They are separated from it, and then they go back (nirvana), and then they are separated again, forever.
In regards to the poll I just added, I frankly hate the idea of not existing. Call it bioloigcal or survival instinct, or whatever, but I do not want to not exist.
Don't worry. You didn't complain of non-existence before you were born and you won't when you die, Just enjoy the bit in the middle; it's really all you've got.
Infinite. All souls are actually part of one "supersoul" (God). They are separated from it, and then they go back (nirvana), and then they are separated again, forever.
If you reach nirvana, why would you go back? What's the point of trying to reach Nirvana then?
Yorda, please clarify this for me. Are the following statements correct:
1. In Christianity, there is a finite number of spirits/souls and at some point in time the physical realm will end and a final judgement will take place in which the final destination of everyone will be determined (heaven or hell). There is no recycling, after Jesus comes back it is either heaven or hell for eternity. If you are accepted into the new Heavenearth then you live in bliss for eternity as AN INDIVIDUAL SPIRIT WITH INDIVIDUAL MEMORIES. So you don't have to suffer anymore and God's purpose for you is fulfilled.
So in Christianity, God intentionally creates humanity (our spirits) for a specific purpose (restore the earth/void).
In Hinduism, God doesn't intentionally create us, we are simply a part of God (like DNA). Humanity is not unique and has no ULTIMATE goal or purpose. There is no Satan to restore the earth from, the earth is not unique.
Are these fair judgements?
Also, if we are all one supersoul/superspirit do we also have individual and separate spirits/souls (invisible, indivisible substances) which last forever, and do we retain this individuality in Nirvana? I know Hinduism is split on this issue between different schools, so I'm wondering what your thoughts are.
If you reach nirvana, why would you go back?
because you have no choice. you can't stay in the same state forever because everything in the universe constantly changes. there is always a snake in paradise.
What's the point of trying to reach Nirvana then?
the meaning of life is to reach joy. even the point of nirvana is to reach joy...
If God is all powerful, why wouldn't he let us all stay in Nirvana for eternity? Why does he bring suffering and blindness and dis-enlightenment to us?
sowhatifit'sdark
02-15-08, 11:07 PM
Basically, if we have an invisible thing called a soul/spirit/whatever, than it really isn't eternal by nature. Since we had a beginning, we can have an end (namely, God can end it if he began it).
No, this is simply guesswork. It could have a beginning and no end. It could last for an infinite amount of time, for all you know. How can you know that something that began in the finite past does not endure for an infinite future? Whatever your answer is is simply your intuition, there is nothing inherently necessary in it.
You're right. I know nothing. But I can think things and have an opinion (I guess I don't really have that either, oh well).
All I'm saying is this: If a man (spirit) named God created us (human spirits) then that means we haven't always existed (otherwise he couldn't have created us). So by nature of our creation, yes, we can live forever but only if God doesn't take our existence away. So, in other words our existence is dependant on the decisions of and the existence of God, we are not eternal by nature if we were created. That's what I was getting at.
So, yes, if God created us then it is possible he gave us spirits which have the ability to last forever, but if so then they are still dependant on another being (God) to allow them to last forever. They are not independently eternal. But again, this is the Christian God we are talking about. In some sects of Hinduism I think souls/spirits actually are eternal (my bad LG), though there doesn't seem to really be any specific purpose for human existence like in Christianity.
KennyJC
02-16-08, 07:46 PM
Souls, spirits, whatever you want to call them, exist as something the brain produces mechanically. It can not survive death. It's plainly clear why we invented these notions of eternity since we will be dead in the blink of an eye, but you will die and it will be exactly as it was before your conception.
Get used to it mother fuckers.
sowhatifit'sdark
02-16-08, 08:00 PM
ND experiences are no more than electrochemical activity in the limbic system of the brain. It can be produced by stimulating the brain with electricity.
If we can stimulate the experience of hearing someone speak by stimulating the brain with electricity, does that mean that other people really can't speak. Wait, I think we have done that....
sowhatifit'sdark
02-16-08, 08:05 PM
You're right. I know nothing. But I can think things and have an opinion (I guess I don't really have that either, oh well).
I wasn't saying you know nothing. I am pretty damn sure you know quite a bit. I find logical presentations often irritating, because they can be effective little knots in the brains of others.
All I'm saying is this: If a man (spirit) named God created us (human spirits) then that means we haven't always existed (otherwise he couldn't have created us). So by nature of our creation, yes, we can live forever but only if God doesn't take our existence away. So, in other words our existence is dependant on the decisions of and the existence of God, we are not eternal by nature if we were created. That's what I was getting at.
OK. I can go with that one more, at least in terms of the monotheisms. It might be a dependent infinite time.
So, yes, if God created us then it is possible he gave us spirits which have the ability to last forever, but if so then they are still dependant on another being (God) to allow them to last forever. They are not independently eternal. But again, this is the Christian God we are talking about. In some sects of Hinduism I think souls/spirits actually are eternal (my bad LG), though there doesn't seem to really be any specific purpose for human existence like in Christianity.
My sense of the mystical end of some Hinduisms is that they see us as a part of the One which they give different names. And we are eternal though perhaps not as 'Joe Barthes' or Britney.
Adstar, thanks for the comments and basically saying that I'm a retard
No i cannot see the word retard in my post. I was pointing out the flaws in your thoughts. People do that in discussions all the time without looking upon each other as retarded. But as per usual a very negative attitude is being pasted upon me in this forum as a psychological assist to one who wants to reject what is being said.
God says in Genesis Chapter 1 verse 26,
"Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."
NKJV
I was taught that that means he (they?) created the sprits of the humans here (male and female). And then later in Genesis 2 he creates physical man and puts the spirit of Adam (created in Gen. 1) into this physical man.
You where taught by whom? God?
Think about it: According to Christianity, there will a finite and set number of spirits which will live as a human on earth. At some point, Jesus will end the physical realm/world/earth and will bring heaven down to earth.
Let's say that he returns on January 1, 2009. This would mean that X number of spirits have experienced life on earth. Let's say, just as an example, that exactly 1,304,402,494,202,282,282,029,029,202 individual spirits lived on earth starting from the Adam spirit's existence (the first spirit to live on earth in a human body).
Basically, I always thought that those exact number of spirits were created in Gen. 1 and that all those spirits waited in heaven until their turn to come down to earth. Is that accurate or way off?
Way off. Nothing in the Bible supports the pre-existence of humans in other forms.
Adstar, do you believe your spirit existed before you existed as a physical human? If so, that would support my interpretation of Gen. 1:26.
No i do not believe i existed as a spirit before i existed in human form.
Note: All this discussion of eternal souls is trivial and doesn't prove or disprove anything. It's just fun to ponder. That's why we're all on this site right? To think and ponder what the hell reality we are in and the nature of reality.
Each one is here for their own reasons NDS, Part of growing in awareness is realizing that 10 people can be doing the same thing and have 10 different motivations for doing it.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Leo Volont
02-17-08, 03:52 AM
What you seem to be doing is attacking what has never been an intentional argument, for Eternal Souls, but what has simply been a mistaken usage by people who had meant to say IMMORTAL SOUL.
So, yes, you argument is wonderfully effective for telling us that some people had been using their words poorly.
But what they had always meant was IMMORTAL SOUL.
You see, their concern is not that they had ever been created and had a beginning, but what worries them is that they should have an END, that they should cease to be. While being Eternal subsumes both ends of the temporal line, those concerned for their Immortality care only for the line pointing into the future.
Christianity, or more specifically the Bible, states that the spirits of humans were created by God in God's image. To be created means that they must not have existed before, so human spirits (and angels for that matter) can't possibly be eternal because eternity goes in both directions.
In Buddhism they just say up front that there is no such thing as an invisible thing called a soul, and especially one which is eternal.
In Hinduism and Islam, souls are created as well, and this creation process never stops. Again, if something was created than it can't be eternal.
I just thought it was interesting to point out that many religions say that the soul is eternal, but it can't be since it was created. And if the saying, "Anything that has a beginning has an end" has any merit, then there is something to be said about an eternal soul that was created, especially created by another being.
Basically, if we have an invisible thing called a soul/spirit/whatever, than it really isn't eternal by nature. Since we had a beginning, we can have an end (namely, God can end it if he began it).
lightgigantic
02-20-08, 12:08 AM
Thank you for the scripture text LG. It seems that there is one religion which may believe in an eternal soul: Hinduism.
Tell me though, how many spirits/souls (not bodies) exist right now? If you state that no new spirits/souls are ever created, then there must be a set number of individual spirits/souls in existence right now, right? This is all semantics and other unimportant shit but its fun to talk about and ponder.
So again, are new spirits/souls ever created according to your branch of Hinduism? If not, then at some point in time, is it possible that EVERY SINGLE SPIRIT/SOUL (not body) can reach Nirvana? If so, then what will the point of the physical realm (reincarnation, humans, animals) be since there will be no spirits to possess them?
This is fun to talk about to me. I'm not trying to disprove Hinduism or anything so don't take it that way (actually, I think Hinduism is very plausible in a lot of ways and makes sense in a lot of ways).
To get back to the quote again
BG 2.20: For the soul there is neither birth nor death at any time. He has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. He is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. He is not slain when the body is slain.
The idea is that the soul is not created (in the sense of linear time - ie having a "beginning") but is a contingent property of god.
For eg, heat is a contingent property of fire - for as long as fire exists, heat exists .... and in the case of an eternal fire you would have eternal heat. IOW we are (but one of) god's (eternal) potencies.
As for the exact number, there must also be an exact number of atoms in the material creation too, but I guess only god knows what that is (IOW for us, it is practically infinity)
You have kind of hit off on the right direction though - since we are eternal the only thing we can have an eternal relationship with is god in god's realm - in fact that is where we came from - we stay in this world (trying out various temporary relationships with other temporary things) for as long as we are determined to (there is no time limit for how long we stay here ... after all, the time factor is another eternal potency of the lord (specific to the material world).
flameofanor5
02-21-08, 07:10 PM
Spirit and soul are two different things. Soul is mind/will/emotion. The Bible says your spirit is eternal. I believe it. It also says we are spirits, we live in bodies, and we have souls. :)
:thumbsup:
flameofanor5
02-21-08, 07:12 PM
:roflmao::roflmao:What you seem to be doing is attacking what has never been an intentional argument, for Eternal Souls, but what has simply been a mistaken usage by people who had meant to say IMMORTAL SOUL.
So, yes, you argument is wonderfully effective for telling us that some people had been using their words poorly.
But what they had always meant was IMMORTAL SOUL.
You see, their concern is not that they had ever been created and had a beginning, but what worries them is that they should have an END, that they should cease to be. While being Eternal subsumes both ends of the temporal line, those concerned for their Immortality care only for the line pointing into the future.
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