Genetic Mutation and the Law of Entropy vs. the Law of Syntropy!!!

[Jozen-Bo]

I wrote this into the topic of another thread and thought it was so interesting it should get a thread of its own!!!

It starts like this:

For over 15 years I have been aware that DNA mutates and changes over time. This awareness became clearer as time passed by. This morning I was reading a fascinating book on the bus on the way to work (I prefer the bus...I get to read then, whereas if I drive I don't). The book is named:
Energy Medicine in Therapeutics and Human Performance, by James Oschman...PhD.

It gives incredible information regarding the most up-to-date discoveries and current theories in Biochemistry, Biology, and Living Systems. Of particular interest is the coverage of the Living Matrix. I believe the book will be very helpful later on when I have the time to formulate a theory regarding the physical process involved with working with the Mind Portal.:scratchin:

I discovered this morning how fast the DNA changes...3,000,000 times per a second!!! I finally know know how fast the DNA is mutating at a minimum. I say minimum, because between each change the amount of change may vary, one bit of change might be very little compared to the next. If my math is correct this means there are 259,200,000,000 DNA changes in a single day.
:eek:


The book also goes further (much further, revealing many incredible things!!!), in science there is the law of entropy, many scientist don't like to compare this law to the Synergetics of the Living Matrix, which is the opposite, rather then being a system that breaks down, it is a system the perfects its self!!! This is called Syntropy!!!:cool:

I will quote the book a little on this:
"Shang (1989) compared acupuncture points with developmental organizing centers and singular points. A singular point is a place where a very small change in one parameter will cause a huge change in another. In the past, such phase transitions in living systems were examined by a combination of thermodynamic, general systems, and information theories, but these approaches proved inadequate. One reason is that biological systems frequently show phase transitions that achieve something that many scientist have been reluctant to accept. Living systems simply do not obey the second law of thermodynamics. They are syntropic (Szent-Gyorgyi 1974) rather than entropic, and they have the tendency to perfect themselves. They might even be called purposeful (Haken 1973).
An important discovery arising from the study of cooperative phenomena is that giant coherent oscillations can be set up in individual macromolecules. We will discuss this further when we consider energy flow in the living system."

Food for thought!

With my Kindest Regards,
Jozen-Bo

[Jozen-Bo]

I wanted to post it under Biology...but couldn't find that category. I think the next choice was human science...my boo boo.:shrug:

[blobrana]

Using the genetic equivalent of an ancient thermometer, a team of scientists has determined that the Earth endured a massive cooling period between 500 million and 3.5 billion years ago.
Reporting today (Feb. 7) in the journal Nature, researchers from the University of Florida, the Foundation for Applied Molecular Evolution and the biotechnology company DNA2.0 describe how they reconstructed proteins from ancient bacteria to measure the Earth’s temperature over the ages.

Read more (http://news.ufl.edu/2008/02/06/time-machine/)

[Jozen-Bo]

Does anyone else have anything to say?

[Ophiolite]

"3,000,000 times per a second"

Change and mutation are not the same thing.

You appear to be talking bollocks.

[Jozen-Bo]

"3,000,000 times per a second"

Change and mutation are not the same thing.

You appear to be talking bollocks.

Absurd!

Change and mutation are not the same thing? Nonsense. Anything that changes is mutating...not being what it was. How can something mutate without changing? How can something change without mutating from that which it originally was? You have no grasp of what these things are.

[ElectricFetus]

Didn't we have a thread on this before? Didn't we agree and vibrational and configuration changes do not cause base pair changes that would "mutate" the genetic code? In short twisting and vibrating a strip of paper with the letters "How Now Brown Cow" will not change the spelling of that phrase.

/Thread

[Cyperium]

Didn't we have a thread on this before? Didn't we agree and vibrational and configuration changes do not cause base pair changes that would "mutate" the genetic code? In short twisting and vibrating a strip of paper with the letters "How Now Brown Cow" will not change the spelling of that phrase.

/Thread\Start

I'm just curious to why the genes vibrate.

Also, what do you mean by configuration changes? That the sequence is in another order? (like "Brown Cow How Now")

Can that in any way change the function of the gene? Can one gene by varying it's sequence be used for different things?

[ElectricFetus]

If your curious then find the previous thread on the subject, I think it was locked.

All molecules can rotate and vibrate along their bonds, for examples of configuration changes look up Z-DNA A-DNA, B-DNA, these are example of changes in DNA conformations. Think of it like this: if I flex my arm does my arm mutate, is it now different? As soon as I relax my arm it returns to it previous state, my arm flexing was simply a temporary property, nothing has change about my arm, in the same way DNA vibrates and twists, but DNA does not become something different, those twisting and vibrations constantly return from one state to another.

Yes, conformational changes and the very vibration of DNA and molecules them selves are needed for actions such as the binding of transcriptase, promotors and suppressors, but in biological systems these changes are steady state and are simply a constant properties of the molecule.

As for entropy, no biology does not violate the 2nd law, any more then an refrigerator does, by the way did you notice that a refrigerator cools thing, thus decreasing entropy! Life and refrigerators do this because they are not closed system, they decrease entropy locally by increase entropy somewhere else, for example refrigerators suck heat from one place and pump it to the air outside using energy from power grid. Entropy is constantly trying to make you achieve equilibrium (death) your body counter this by converting food into simple molecules (CO2, H2O, urea, etc) thus increase the entropy of the food and providing the energy to decrease the entropy of your body, this process is less then 100% efficient which means more entropy always comes out then was lost.

[Jozen-Bo]

If your curious then find the previous thread on the subject, I think it was locked.

All molecules can rotate and vibrate along their bonds, for examples of configuration changes look up Z-DNA A-DNA, B-DNA, these are example of changes in DNA conformations. Think of it like this: if I flex my arm does my arm mutate, is it now different? As soon as I relax my arm it returns to it previous state, my arm flexing was simply a temporary property, nothing has change about my arm, in the same way DNA vibrates and twists, but DNA does not become something different, those twisting and vibrations constantly return from one state to another.

I can't agree with this. When you flex your arm, muscle cells break; that is why body builders develop larger stronger muscles. They break them while flexing against weight and this cause waves that communicate the command to regenerate through that part of the structure. The neighboring cells respond by regenerating, healing the structure to make it better then before. The muscles appear. Even if you flex a muscle slightly it still causes some cells to break, and thus the arm is not truly the same as it was. You are ignoring the little differences that add up big. This is probably why you are having a hard time to see how even the slightest change in any shape changes the complete potential of what that shape can do, how it can function.

I never said DNA becomes something different, but that it functions ever so slightly differently as its shape changes. This is no secret in the DNA community. They describe how it changes as we get older, breaking down or becoming less stable. This is a crystal clear evident sign that DNA and how it functions can change, and this should make it easier to understand that those changes aren't happening at once, but in billions of little progressions, from one second to another spread through time.


Yes, conformational changes and the very vibration of DNA and molecules them selves are needed for actions such as the binding of transcriptase, promotors and suppressors, but in biological systems these changes are steady state and are simply a constant properties of the molecule.

Steady state? Are you sure about that? So, the DNA stays the same as it was when we where a little baby? When that first cell split into two cells, these are exactly the same as how they are now? After all, your saying nothing about the function changes, because it is in a steady state. It make reach a stable state, but how long does it last?



As for entropy, no biology does not violate the 2nd law, any more then an refrigerator does, by the way did you notice that a refrigerator cools thing, thus decreasing entropy! Life and refrigerators do this because they are not closed system, they decrease entropy locally by increase entropy somewhere else, for example refrigerators suck heat from one place and pump it to the air outside using energy from power grid. Entropy is constantly trying to make you achieve equilibrium (death) your body counter this by converting food into simple molecules (CO2, H2O, urea, etc) thus increase the entropy of the food and providing the energy to decrease the entropy of your body, this process is less then 100% efficient which means more entropy always comes out then was lost.

If the 2nd law does not include a syntropic complement, that ultimately everything will degrade into chaos soup. How ever, what you are observing is how entropy is created when syntropy is created, both at the same time. It has been estimated that there is always more entropy then syntropy, but considering that the syntropy can command and imprint a pattern and that this pattern can perfect itself over time, this syntropic function would steer the entropy back into a syntropic complement.

[ElectricFetus]

I can't agree with this. When you flex your arm, muscle cells break; that is why body builders develop larger stronger muscles. They break them while flexing against weight and this cause waves that communicate the command to regenerate through that part of the structure. The neighboring cells respond by regenerating, healing the structure to make it better then before. The muscles appear. Even if you flex a muscle slightly it still causes some cells to break, and thus the arm is not truly the same as it was. You are ignoring the little differences that add up big. This is probably why you are having a hard time to see how even the slightest change in any shape changes the complete potential of what that shape can do, how it can function.

Your taking the analogy to far! A fatigueless flexer joint would be a better example, single (well double) stranded molecules like DNA can't suffer from fatigue, they either break or don't break, twist and flexing of molecular bonds are not like phyical material at that size, fatigue by flexing it not possible as it would void quantum mechanics which is what rules at those size ranges. By your analogy all matter would fall apart because everything even the most solid object you know is vibrating at a ferocious rate at the molecular level.


I never said DNA becomes something different, but that it functions ever so slightly differently as its shape changes. This is no secret in the DNA community. They describe how it changes as we get older, breaking down or becoming less stable.
Vibration and torque aren't causing those changes, constant attack from radicals is the primary cause of mutation, but even that is not the most oppressive force that causes old age, rather its in combination with lack of cellular regeneration (to correct those errors) and telomere shortening causes aging.


This is a crystal clear evident sign that DNA and how it functions can change, and this should make it easier to understand that those changes aren't happening at once, but in billions of little progressions, from one second to another spread through time.

Again void quantum mechanics, molecules can't have progressive states they are either in one configuration or another, and never in between.


Steady state? Are you sure about that? So, the DNA stays the same as it was when we where a little baby? When that first cell split into two cells, these are exactly the same as how they are now? After all, your saying nothing about the function changes, because it is in a steady state. It make reach a stable state, but how long does it last?

The changes DNA undertakes by twisting and vibration are reversible and temporary, for example every cell cycle DNA is twisted and re-twisted and then unwound, replicated, error corrected, and repeat. Aside for some extra mutations and shorter telomeres as you get older, yes the DNA is still the same base pair to base pair. For example we can take the DNA from a the child and the DNA from the same person after dying of oil age and it code is virtually identical, the causes of old age are due to cellular and physiological changes, gene activation patterns change not because DNA constantly vibrates but because cell have died or have become senescence because the telomeres have gotten to short and have cut off whole genes, or because the cell has not repaired base pair mutations caused by decades of radical attack,etc.



If the 2nd law does not include a syntropic complement, that ultimately everything will degrade into chaos soup. How ever, what you are observing is how entropy is created when syntropy is created, both at the same time. It has been estimated that there is always more entropy then syntropy, but considering that the syntropy can command and imprint a pattern and that this pattern can perfect itself over time, this syntropic function would steer the entropy back into a syntropic complement.

No, there is always more entropy then syntropy, for syntropy to exist it must cause more entropy somewhere else, order cannot happen without spending energy to organize, and the process cannot be more then 100% efficient, which means you always create equal to more more disorder then order.

[Ophiolite]

Absurd!

Change and mutation are not the same thing? Nonsense. Anything that changes is mutating...not being what it was. How can something mutate without changing? How can something change without mutating from that which it originally was? You have no grasp of what these things are.Mutation relates to a specific change in the gentic code such that a different protein will be specified, or the control of the expressions of a gene will be altered, or the gene will become non-functioning.

Changes in configuration and such - as aptly described by Electric Fetus - are quite another thing. You were talking bollocks. You continue to talk bollocks. I have no interest in such a discussion. Goodbye.

[ElectricFetus]

Mutation relates to a specific change in the gentic code such that a different protein will be specified, or the control of the expressions of a gene will be altered, or the gene will become non-functioning.

Changes in configuration and such - as aptly described by Electric Fetus - are quite another thing. You were talking bollocks. You continue to talk bollocks. I have no interest in such a discussion. Goodbye.

I would not be so mean, I think Jozen-Bo simply lacks a fundamental understanding of molecular biology and has been fed some kind of pseudoscience without being able to properly compare it with the science.