View Full Version : Bible Contradictions 1
I wish to examine some of what I regard as contradictions in the Bible and see what explanations, if any, are forthcoming.
The first question I would like to pose is this :
Why did god create pigs and why did Noah save two of them when they are regarded as unclean animals in the Bible ?
Please keep to the topic , as I have I have a number of questions I should like to raise one at a time
Thanks
the same reason that God created a forbidden tree with an apple in a garden and told Adam and Even not to eat it. To test the will of his own creations.
spidergoat
01-25-08, 07:10 PM
OOO good question. How about the shellfish for that matter?
PsychoticEpisode
01-25-08, 07:43 PM
Eggs without bacon, just couldn't imagine it and neither could God. Along the same lines..why would God save any animal only to have it go extinct ?
Well Myles...answer me, if you agree.
Well Myles?
I wish to examine some of what I regard as contradictions in the Bible and see what explanations, if any, are forthcoming.
The first question I would like to pose is this :
Why did god create pigs and why did Noah save two of them when they are regarded as unclean animals in the Bible ?
Please keep to the topic , as I have I have a number of questions I should like to raise one at a time
Thanks
Good questions. Not so easy to answer.
I think... such questions cannot be answered without saying God needed to even allow unclean things. Pigs are not only shown of such contempt in the Old Testiment. A ''Legion'' of Demons existed in a man, and Jesus cast them out, and they took hold of the pigs and they drowned themselves...
... So without the pig, where would the demons have gone?
I think... such questions cannot be answered without saying God needed to even allow unclean things. Pigs are not only shown of such contempt in the Old Testiment. A ''Legion'' of Demons existed in a man, and Jesus cast them out, and they took hold of the pigs and they drowned themselves...
... So without the pig, where would the demons have gone?
another reason of the wrong view on the world. the demons don't have to go anywhere, the demons can be changed to become good spirits.
I don't know about that... are demons... redeemable? They are the fallen angels of God... Do they still have a place in heaven?
Most scriptual evidence would support it as a ''no.''
the same reason that God created a forbidden tree with an apple in a garden and told Adam and Even not to eat it. To test the will of his own creations.
Why would he need to test the will of creatures he created. As an omniscient being he would have known in advance how they would behave, so the idea of a test becomes pointless.
Don't be so impatient; I have just got out of bed.
I think... such questions cannot be answered without saying God needed to even allow unclean things. Pigs are not only shown of such contempt in the Old Testiment. A ''Legion'' of Demons existed in a man, and Jesus cast them out, and they took hold of the pigs and they drowned themselves...
... So without the pig, where would the demons have gone?
If demons had not been created, there would have been no need for them to go anywhere. I assume you are referring to the Gadarene swine. Why should innocent animals be made to suffer needlessly ?
Question 2
Why did god create a world full of sinners, Noah and his family excepted, and then have to drown them all ?
PsychoticEpisode
01-26-08, 08:26 AM
Question 2
Why did god create a world full of sinners, Noah and his family excepted, and then have to drown them all ?
Because that's how a psychopath thinks. Doing the world and Himself a big favor.
Why tell us about it?
Because that's how a psychopath thinks. Doing the world and Himself a big favor.
Why tell us about it?
I think we are told about it because god is saying "that'll larn ye; now you know who's in charge round here"
PsychoticEpisode
01-26-08, 08:52 AM
God seems to have a lot of trouble putting the ideal pair on the Earth for His master plan. A&E bombed so He tried a family and it looks like more of the same. He sounds like some mad male chauvinistic genetic engineer scientist dictator bent on establishing a new world order in which there is no evil, unfortunately the evil starts with Him.
the answer to this is simple, God created people to test their power of will, he created us because we are just like God cannot be defined or predicted. Our existence is chaotic because we have free will, and the stronger the expression of this free will within us the more unpredictable and God-like we become. The less we are accustomed to act by instinct to life, the more we become God-like. God wanted like him, beside him.
the answer to this is simple, God created people to test their power of will, he created us because we are just like God cannot be defined or predicted. Our existence is chaotic because we have free will, and the stronger the expression of this free will within us the more unpredictable and God-like we become. The less we are accustomed to act by instinct to life, the more we become God-like. God wanted like him, beside him.
I have been called some awful names in my time but saying I am just like god is the worst ever.
If he wanted perfect people like himself, why didn't he create clones, and save himself the trouble of having to deal with sinners ?
I have been called some awful names in my time but saying I am just like god is the worst ever.
If he wanted perfect people like himself, why didn't he create clones, and save himself the trouble of having to deal with sinners ?
because this free will gives birth to strong willed people who choose whether to limit their own freedom for sake of good and those who abuse their freedom and become what we refer to as Satan's.
Dont get me wrong we are no Gods, but we are on a path to such...
PsychoticEpisode
01-26-08, 09:04 PM
the answer to this is simple, God created people to test their power of will,
It seems that you believe we are here for a test. If so then it shouldn't matter if we fail. There is absolutely no reason to kill us for taking the test.
It seems that you believe we are here for a test. If so then it shouldn't matter if we fail. There is absolutely no reason to kill us for taking the test.
we kill ourselves.
Gods give rise to universe in which the creations are born, develop and slowly become God-like...until they create universes oncemore to give rise to more Gods of their own universes.
PsychoticEpisode
01-26-08, 09:12 PM
God is the weapon of choice.
God is the weapon of choice.
if weapon at all.
PsychoticEpisode
01-26-08, 09:17 PM
Why do we have to die for failing a test? If you were to take a test that resulted in your death if upon failure then would you have liked to have been given that little piece of information beforehand?
Why do we have to die for failing a test? If you were to take a test that resulted in your death if upon failure then would you have liked to have been given that little piece of information beforehand?
we never fail a test...we either are part of it or not. Death is as birth, birth is as death.
PsychoticEpisode
01-26-08, 09:25 PM
we never fail a test...we either are part of it or not. Death is as birth, birth is as death.
In posts #2 & #16 you said we were created so our free will could be tested. So am I to believe that you are saying death is not a result of failing the test? Just so we're on the same page, can you tell me what the test is?
In posts #2 & #16 you said we were created so our free will could be tested. So am I to believe that you are saying death is not a result of failing the test? Just so we're on the same page, can you tell me what the test is?
the test is our expression of free will...the strength of it. Say you wanted to smoke drugs and everyone told you it felt really good...well after you tried it once and felt good, you denied yourself with power of free will to do it against the body's wish to have it.
PsychoticEpisode
01-26-08, 09:32 PM
How we express our free will is the test you refer to, is that correct?
How we express our free will is the test you refer to, is that correct?
in essence, yes...but there are two paths after that. :cool:
PsychoticEpisode
01-26-08, 09:48 PM
in essence, yes...but there are two paths after that. :cool:
Regardless of how many paths there are, how is free will testable? The only thing testable about it is whether you use it or not. Make a person, install free will, then see if they use it.....you can't go any further than that.
Regardless of how many paths there are, how is free will testable? The only thing testable about it is whether you use it or not. Make a person, install free will, then see if they use it.....you can't go any further than that.
not true, thats what "time" is for, there are many episodes to test the power of free will, the stronger it is, the more wiser in soul a person becomes...the more God-like and more pure.
It is like taming a raging ocean storm with hands.
PsychoticEpisode
01-26-08, 09:55 PM
Let's get back on track. Is God punishing us for failing the free will test?
Let's get back on track. Is God punishing us for failing the free will test?
no, we are punishing ourselves by not being part of it...we become its creations...shadows in essence. But to call it punishment, would be not wise, it is more like not participating in a project of universe.
PsychoticEpisode
01-26-08, 10:00 PM
Am I not exercising my free will by endorsing atheism?
Am I not exercising my free will by endorsing atheism?
not really, your are just leaning towards a belief of sorts...to exercise your free will you must deny or force upon yourself something that the world and your body wishes not...
I mean I would have to understand thoroughly if belief in atheism allows you to exercise your free will or is merely an instinct against what is commonly accepted...it is hard to discern which is which...
PsychoticEpisode
01-26-08, 10:17 PM
Are you saying everyone's default setting is atheist and that free will is any personal movement away from it?
Are you saying everyone's default setting is atheist and that free will is any personal movement away from it?
there is no such thing as a default setting, people tend to follow other people and thats all there is to it.
Question 2
Why did god create a world full of sinners, Noah and his family excepted, and then have to drown them all ?
Bceuase of the fall of man, and also because the fallen angels chose for them daughters of men to have sex with, and even have half-angel and half-man babies. They where called the ''Giants,'' or the 'Nephilim.' - or also the ''Sons of Anak.''
PsychoticEpisode
01-26-08, 10:45 PM
I mean I would have to understand thoroughly if belief in atheism allows you to exercise your free will or is merely an instinct against what is commonly accepted...it is hard to discern which is which...
Choosing to follow or not is an exercise in free will. Every conscious decision is an exercise in free will. In fact everything I voluntarily do is an exercise in free will. Anything else is involuntary, like a twitching muscle.
This is another topic so I will refrain from discussing free will in this thread from here on in.
Bceuase of the fall of man, and also because the fallen angels chose for them daughters of men to have sex with, and even have half-angel and half-man babies. They where called the ''Giants,'' or the 'Nephilim.' - or also the ''Sons of Anak.''
So why did god create such people, knowing they were going to behave in that way. He had the power not to do so, or didn't he ?
For an end goal.
Would it have been easier for God to do it one way or the other? One must assume that he set these goals out as a blueprint to find out who would be faithful to him. The Bible would make no sense if God didn't make mistakes.
In fact, God even admits to making mistakes. Take the flood...
''And God was grieved with man...''
You cannot have such emotion if you knew it was going to happen anyway. It's obvious God is a bit like the uncertainty principle... He can't know every aspect of reality.
joepistole
01-27-08, 02:03 AM
Does the Bible have contradictions, or is it that our ability to understand the word of God is inhibited by our limited brains?
one_raven
01-27-08, 02:06 AM
In fact, God even admits to making mistakes. Take the flood...
''And God was grieved with man...''
You cannot have such emotion if you knew it was going to happen anyway. It's obvious God is a bit like the uncertainty principle... He can't know every aspect of reality.
All that suggests is that there is no such thing as pre-destination.
Sorry, Calvinists.
one_raven
01-27-08, 02:11 AM
Why did god create pigs and why did Noah save two of them when they are regarded as unclean animals in the Bible ?
So, God should not have created any animal that humans should not be eating?
Why not?
Is everything he created simply for our own pleasure and enjoyment?
Are you really that self-centered?
Animals were not created as food for man.
Actually, according to the Bible, when God created ALL animals man was supposed to be vegetarian.
The change that allowed man to eat meat did not come until many years later in Leviticus.
NIV Genesis 1:29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
No contradiction here at all.
Nor with shellfish.
The reason pigs were "unclean" is simple. Ever heard of trichinosis?
So, God should not have created any animal that humans should not be eating?
Why not?
Is everything he created simply for our own pleasure and enjoyment?
Are you really that self-centered?
Animals were not created as food for man.
Actually, according to the Bible, when God created ALL animals man was supposed to be vegetarian.
The change that allowed man to eat meat did not come until many years later in Leviticus.
NIV Genesis 1:29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
No contradiction here at all.
Nor with shellfish.
The reason pigs were "unclean" is simple. Ever heard of trichinosis?
God should have forseen the forthcoming change. Or is he not omniscient after all ? Or omniscient about everything but pigs ?
Does the Bible have contradictions, or is it that our ability to understand the word of God is inhibited by our limited brains?
Well what's the point of god givingus his word, if we cannot understand it ?
All that suggests is that there is no such thing as pre-destination.
Sorry, Calvinists.
The beginning and end was determined... so everything is predetermined. It's our understanding of the world.... and possibly even Gods... for he cannot exist outside the universe, so he must be bound to quantum nature itself. Why he would do so, goes beyond my measurement.
one_raven
01-27-08, 02:48 AM
God should have forseen the forthcoming change. Or is he not omniscient after all ? Or omniscient about everything but pigs ?
Free will denies the existence of pre-determination.
There is nothing in the bible that claims God can see all that will happen in the future.
The bible does, however, claim that man has free will.
one_raven
01-27-08, 02:49 AM
The beginning and end was determined... so everything is predetermined. It's our understanding of the world.... and possibly even Gods... for he cannot exist outside the universe, so he must be bound to quantum nature itself. Why he would do so, goes beyond my measurement.
The end is determined?
Are you referring to John's non-sensical ravings in Revelation?
MikeHoncho
01-27-08, 02:50 AM
ya'll are all over the place here.
We are here to grow through (often painful) experience of good and evil. In fact the forbidden fruit came from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. This is because God is realllllly lonely and he wants someone who actually gets his jokes. We are not here merely to exercise free will. Free will is necessary so that when we f-up and learn the painful bits its not a good God's fault.
I wish to examine some of what I regard as contradictions in the Bible and see what explanations, if any, are forthcoming.
The first question I would like to pose is this :
Why did god create pigs and why did Noah save two of them when they are regarded as unclean animals in the Bible ?
Please keep to the topic , as I have I have a number of questions I should like to raise one at a time
Thanks
Simple.
They are regarded as unclean only in regard to human contact and consumption.
Unclean does not mean evil or bad. Pigs serve a purpose in nature and therefore are of value.
Just because something is not good to eat does not mean that it has no other worth.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Question 2
Why did god create a world full of sinners, Noah and his family excepted, and then have to drown them all ?
God did not create a world full of sinners. God put up with a world full of sinners for a time and still puts up with them.
He drowned them all to demonstrate the price of sin in a dramatic way i guess. Remember everyone dies so the price of sin has been paid by untold billions more than those who died in the flood.
The story of Noah and the flood as survived for a very long time because it is dramatic, it is a warning and a sign of things to come. As the bible says; as in the times of Noah so it shall be in the end times.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Simple.
They are regarded as unclean only in regard to human contact and consumption.
Unclean does not mean evil or bad. Pigs serve a purpose in nature and therefore are of value.
Just because something is not good to eat does not mean that it has no other worth.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
What value have pigs ?
God did not create a world full of sinners. God put up with a world full of sinners for a time and still puts up with them.
He drowned them all to demonstrate the price of sin in a dramatic way i guess. Remember everyone dies so the price of sin has been paid by untold billions more than those who died in the flood.
The story of Noah and the flood as survived for a very long time because it is dramatic, it is a warning and a sign of things to come. As the bible says; as in the times of Noah so it shall be in the end times.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
So are you saying yhat god created people without knowing they would become sinners?
ya'll are all over the place here.
We are here to grow through (often painful) experience of good and evil. In fact the forbidden fruit came from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. This is because God is realllllly lonely and he wants someone who actually gets his jokes. We are not here merely to exercise free will. Free will is necessary so that when we f-up and learn the painful bits its not a good God's fault.
Why can't the Trinity tell jokes among themselves.? Have they heard them all before. I like the one about Jesus ascending to heaven and sitting on his own right- hand side
Free will denies the existence of pre-determination.
There is nothing in the bible that claims God can see all that will happen in the future.
The bible does, however, claim that man has free will.
I have never spoken to a Christian who believed other than god was omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. That is not to deny what you say about the absence of such attributes in the Bible
One raven
How do you interpret 1Sam2.3 ?
sowhatifit'sdark
01-27-08, 09:42 AM
What value have pigs ?
In what has always seemed to me an unnecessary cruelty, Jesus, on one occasion, used them as receptacles for demons. I mean if he was God, he could have simply cast them out. What did the poor pigs every do to deserve possession and then drowning?
The Healing of Two Demon-possessed Men
28When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes,[d] two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29"What do you want with us, Son of God?" they shouted. "Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?"
30Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31The demons begged Jesus, "If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs."
32He said to them, "Go!" So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.
sowhatifit'sdark
01-27-08, 09:49 AM
This quote from
Exodus 21
should make it nearly impossible the Christians - or Jews for that matter, to go to war.
22 "If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely [e] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
In any war foetuses and preganant women will be hurt and killed. And yet I never hear Christians and Jews calling for the retribution above in relation to their own soldiers, bomber pilots and leaders.
Godslave
01-27-08, 10:42 AM
Why did god create pigs and why did Noah save two of them when they are regarded as unclean animals in the Bible?
Simple: God didn't. Based on the theories of evolution, The Einstein Factor, plus when you actually sit down and read through the New & Old versions of Genises in the "Holy" Bible, you will notice many scientific contradictions. Not just Biblical.
During University I majored in Religious Philosophies. I've studied all kinds of religions from Christianity, Buddhism, Satanism, Thelema, Hindu and loads more; and I honestly have to say, none of the above listed religious philosophical texts have as more contradictions than those of the Christian religion. Christianity is a joke.
Many have attemped to validate the Christian theories; but have unearthed nothing but rube fooling, besmirching and pseudo-intellectual brain-farts from people deemed 'loyal' to another. Contradiction in that: In the Bible it states "One cannot serve God & Man" - thus; the very beginning and the end of it is full of more contradictions than any other that I have witnessed.
Religion itself provides a cover for the masses; it's something for the sheep of society to use as a scapegoat - to use as an excuse to not accept the consequences and responsibilities of one's own behaviour, decisions, and actions. 'God' never existed, and never will. But even I remain open-minded enough to understand that we have yet to discover the Universe, so anything is still possible.
However in the meantime I will look more at Science for the answer as to whether "God" exists or not. So far, Intel tells me: He does not, and never did, exist.
Simple: God didn't. Based on the theories of evolution, The Einstein Factor, plus when you actually sit down and read through the New & Old versions of Genises in the "Holy" Bible, you will notice many scientific contradictions. Not just Biblical.
During University I majored in Religious Philosophies. I've studied all kinds of religions from Christianity, Buddhism, Satanism, Thelema, Hindu and loads more; and I honestly have to say, none of the above listed religious philosophical texts have as more contradictions than those of the Christian religion. Christianity is a joke.
Many have attemped to validate the Christian theories; but have unearthed nothing but rube fooling, besmirching and pseudo-intellectual brain-farts from people deemed 'loyal' to another. Contradiction in that: In the Bible it states "One cannot serve God & Man" - thus; the very beginning and the end of it is full of more contradictions than any other that I have witnessed.
Religion itself provides a cover for the masses; it's something for the sheep of society to use as a scapegoat - to use as an excuse to not accept the consequences and responsibilities of one's own behaviour, decisions, and actions. 'God' never existed, and never will. But even I remain open-minded enough to understand that we have yet to discover the Universe, so anything is still possible.
However in the meantime I will look more at Science for the answer as to whether "God" exists or not. So far, Intel tells me: He does not, and never did, exist.
My own sentiments entirely but I am interested to see the lengths to which some people will go to justify their absurd beliefs.
On another thread I found that one person lied about what was in the Bible. He had made a small addition to suit his purpose. I checked the King James version, the Vulgate and the original Greek without finding what I had been told was there. When I asked for the source containing the addition, I was not given one.
I think evangelism relies on people's ignorance for whatever success it may have
What value have pigs ?
Pigs in the wild turn the earth over and are quick to scavenge dead animals. pigs are like vultures quickly removing what others leave behind.
There are probably other values pigs have that i do not know about.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
So are you saying yhat god created people without knowing they would become sinners?
No. God knew that men would choose rebellion over eternal life. But it was their free willed decision that caused them to lose eternal life. God created them with the ability to say Yes or No to satan but they said yes to satan and no to God.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
No. God knew that men would choose rebellion over eternal life. But it was their free willed decision that caused them to lose eternal life. God created them with the ability to say Yes or No to satan but they said yes to satan and no to God.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
If he KNEW how they were going to behave, then he left them no choice; hence no free will. Can you not see that ?
So if we accept your interpretation, an omnipotent, omniscient god created people he knew would sin so that he could punish them for all eternity. That seem to me to be a bit like pulling wings off flies.
SkinWalker
01-28-08, 10:38 AM
The most likely progenitor for the pig-taboo is that it crept into judeo-islamic mythology through necessity at one point but as a means of defining a culture at a later, more sustained point.
Pigs compete with humans for resources since they eat essentially the same things. In an arid environment during times of low agricultural productivity, the pig would have been costly to maintain. Ovicaprids like sheep and goats, on the other hand, eat very little of the same things that people eat (grasses and shrubs mostly), but produce milk, cheese, and wool without the necessity for slaughter. The pig must be slaughtered to utilize it as a resource and the meat must be well-cooked or trichinosis can be contracted from eating the cysts of Trichinella spiralis, a worm that infects wild and domestic swine.
Recognizing that costs outweigh benefits, rural and often nomadic populations put a taboo on raising swine for consumption. Since the more cosmopolitan populations along the coastal regions of the Levant didn't need such taboos (pigs made efficient waste disposal tools -and still do), they continued to raise and process swine. It wouldn't have taken long to identify culturally as a population that ate pork vs. one that didn't, thus creating a cultural disparity that was useful in self-identification as well as discriminating between cultures.
Of course, the superstitious members of these Bronze (and, later, Iron) Age cultures assigned the swine rule to "divine guidance" rather than simply the culturally evolved idea that it actually is.
If he KNEW how they were going to behave, then he left them no choice; hence no free will. Can you not see that ?
No, you are totally and utterly wrong. Just because someone can see the future decision someone else will make does not mean that they forced that decision from that person. That person lives in the moment and has freedom in the moment to decide what they will decide. God who exists independent of time knows the beginning and the end all at one time and therefore can pre-determine who will have eternity with Him and who will have eternity in the lake of fire.
So if we accept your interpretation, an omnipotent, omniscient god created people he knew would sin so that he could punish them for all eternity. That seem to me to be a bit like pulling wings off flies.
:) But we all sin, therefore sin in itself is not what causes one to have eternity in the lake of fire. One must sin and also reject the atonement provided by the Messiah Jesus to be cast into the lake of fire.
It is not sin but it is ones attitude to sin that leads one to salvation or damnation.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
No, you are totally and utterly wrong. Just because someone can see the future decision someone else will make does not mean that they forced that decision from that person. That person lives in the moment and has freedom in the moment to decide what they will decide. God who exists independent of time knows the beginning and the end all at one time and therefore can pre-determine who will have eternity with Him and who will have eternity in the lake of fire.
:) But we all sin, therefore sin in itself is not what causes one to have eternity in the lake of fire. One must sin and also reject the atonement provided by the Messiah Jesus to be cast into the lake of fire.
It is not sin but it is ones attitude to sin that leads one to salvation or damnation.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
I don't understand your answer because you seem to be agreeing with me. If god pre-determines who will end up where, then we have no choice. So the question remains. why does he create people he knows will go to hell?
SnakeLord
01-29-08, 05:47 AM
No, you are totally and utterly wrong. Just because someone can see the future decision someone else will make does not mean that they forced that decision from that person.
Fine. In saying, why not just create a being that you know is not going to choose to listen to satan? He still has his free will but will never choose to listen to the snake and thus this whole problem could have been avoided. No people burning for eternity, no god having to suicide himself etc etc.
I don't understand your answer because you seem to be agreeing with me. If god pre-determines who will end up where, then we have no choice. So the question remains. why does he create people he knows will go to hell?
Your not listening to my answer. Your focus is on putting forward your thinking.
As it has always been, People who place the most mental effort in putting forward their views have little or no mental fuel left to listen to and digest the views of others.
What i have said is clear and is clearly different from what you are saying. You cannot or will not listen to the thoughts i have to share with you because you’re too intent on getting your thoughts across.
Moving on to the next part of this discussion with you is pretty pointless unless you understand what i am saying.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Spud Emperor
01-29-08, 06:03 AM
*Devils advocate*
Shit, that was more delightfully contoversial than intended ( I love Freud)
It really appears that you're the one not understanding.
Yes it apperas that God likes pulling the wings off flies. ( nice analogy.)
Fine. In saying, why not just create a being that you know is not going to choose to listen to satan? He still has his free will but will never choose to listen to the snake and thus this whole problem could have been avoided. No people burning for eternity, no god having to suicide himself etc etc.
LOL :D How can a person be free when they are locked in to obedience to God????
Only when someone has the freedom to reject the will of God can they also have the freedom to accept the will of God.
I believe Gods will is to have people who will follow Him because they want to rather because they are forced to. I believe He places great value on such people.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Spud Emperor
01-29-08, 06:14 AM
And pulls the wings off the other angel refuters.
*Devils advocate*
Shit, that was more delightfully contoversial than intended ( I love Freud)
It really appears that you're the one not understanding.
Yes it apperas that God likes pulling the wings off flies. ( nice analogy.)
Oh i understand the thinking of myles and many others who have commented on this particular facet of God knowing the future eternal destination of all people even before they where born. I myself came to the same conclusion when i was reading the Bible. It is a thinking that is locked into the time restraints of the universe and cannot comprehend that God could be totally free of such restraints and could in fact exists totally outside time in another time not bonded or geared in any ratio to our time.
I guess it is something that only the Holy Spirit can give one understanding on.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Spud Emperor
01-29-08, 06:22 AM
Aaahh!
It all makes sense now.
/pulls own wings off
SnakeLord
01-29-08, 06:26 AM
LOL How can a person be free when they are locked in to obedience to God????
Your not listening to my answer. Your focus is on putting forward your thinking.
As it has always been, People who place the most mental effort in putting forward their views have little or no mental fuel left to listen to and digest the views of others.
What i have said is clear and is clearly different from what you are saying. You cannot or will not listen to the thoughts i have to share with you because you’re too intent on getting your thoughts across.
Let's make this easy:
- This god of yours created Adam and Eve
- This god of yours had full knowledge that they would listen to the snake and cause the fall of mankind through their own choice.
- Even though this god of yours had that knowledge it does not prevent their free will.
So now..
- This god of yours creates Bob and Jane
- This god of yours has full knowledge that they wont listen to the snake and wont cause the fall of mankind through their own choice.
- Even though this god of yours has that knowledge it does not prevent their free will.
Same situation, different outcome. To argue against this you must argue against your own claims, (that full knowledge of an outcome does not prevent free will).
He knows their choice before they even exist, but it doesn't mean they didn't choose. That is your argument, and yet here you are arguing against your own argument.
Only when someone has the freedom to reject the will of God can they also have the freedom to accept the will of God.
Ok.. and they still have that freedom just like Adam and Eve had the freedom to listen to god but chose not to. Instead Bob and Jane had the freedom not to listen to god but chose to.
Listen to my statement.
Jan Ardena
01-29-08, 06:56 AM
Simple: God didn't. Based on the theories of evolution, The Einstein Factor, plus when you actually sit down and read through the New & Old versions of Genises in the "Holy" Bible, you will notice many scientific contradictions. Not just Biblical.
During University I majored in Religious Philosophies. I've studied all kinds of religions from Christianity, Buddhism, Satanism, Thelema, Hindu and loads more; and I honestly have to say, none of the above listed religious philosophical texts have as more contradictions than those of the Christian religion. Christianity is a joke.
Many have attemped to validate the Christian theories; but have unearthed nothing but rube fooling, besmirching and pseudo-intellectual brain-farts from people deemed 'loyal' to another. Contradiction in that: In the Bible it states "One cannot serve God & Man" - thus; the very beginning and the end of it is full of more contradictions than any other that I have witnessed.
Religion itself provides a cover for the masses; it's something for the sheep of society to use as a scapegoat - to use as an excuse to not accept the consequences and responsibilities of one's own behaviour, decisions, and actions. 'God' never existed, and never will. But even I remain open-minded enough to understand that we have yet to discover the Universe, so anything is still possible.
However in the meantime I will look more at Science for the answer as to whether "God" exists or not. So far, Intel tells me: He does not, and never did, exist.
Firstly, how is 'satanism' a religion, other than it may be given 'religion' status by a government?
Secondly, if you believe God never existed, and never will, therefore only a figment of imagination intended to be used as a scapegoat, "to use as an excuse to not accept the consequences and responsibilities of one's own behaviour, decisions, and actions." . Why look to science for the answer as to whether He exists or not?
Just curious.
Jan.
Your not listening to my answer. Your focus is on putting forward your thinking.
As it has always been, People who place the most mental effort in putting forward their views have little or no mental fuel left to listen to and digest the views of others.
What i have said is clear and is clearly different from what you are saying. You cannot or will not listen to the thoughts i have to share with you because you’re too intent on getting your thoughts across.
Let's make this easy:
- This god of yours created Adam and Eve
- This god of yours had full knowledge that they would listen to the snake and cause the fall of mankind through their own choice.
- Even though this god of yours had that knowledge it does not prevent their free will.
So now..
- This god of yours creates Bob and Jane
- This god of yours has full knowledge that they wont listen to the snake and wont cause the fall of mankind through their own choice.
- Even though this god of yours has that knowledge it does not prevent their free will.
What am i supposed to be arguing against here?
Same situation, different outcome. To argue against this you must argue against your own claims, (that full knowledge of an outcome does not prevent free will).
He knows their choice before they even exist, but it doesn't mean they didn't choose. That is your argument, and yet here you are arguing against your own argument.
Only when someone has the freedom to reject the will of God can they also have the freedom to accept the will of God.
How am i arguing against my statement here? Your not making sense at all.
Ok.. and they still have that freedom just like Adam and Eve had the freedom to listen to god but chose not to. Instead Bob and Jane had the freedom not to listen to god but chose to.
Listen to my statement.
I have and your statements make no sense at all. They do not even make atheistic sense. :D
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
SnakeLord
01-29-08, 07:33 AM
What am i supposed to be arguing against here?
Now now, enough with the diversionary tactics. I contend that you know and understand full well what is being said. However, I shall put it in even simpler terms for you:
god created Adam and Eve knowing that they would sin. Why not just create different people that he knew wouldn't?
The issue came with you contending that they would apparently "be locked in to obedience with god", but this is not so - they merely chose to be. god's knowledge of that doesn't, (in your argument), mean they have no free will.
god created Adam knowing specifically that he would sin. Instead why not create a being that he specifically knew wouldn't? What has changed? How is the second person any more "locked" than the first?
I have and your statements make no sense at all.
It makes perfect sense. If you contend otherwise you should attempt a little more than just saying so. Explain where you think the issue is.
Now now, enough with the diversionary tactics. I contend that you know and understand full well what is being said. However, I shall put it in even simpler terms for you:
god created Adam and Eve knowing that they would sin. Why not just create different people that he knew wouldn't?
The issue came with you contending that they would apparently "be locked in to obedience with god", but this is not so - they merely chose to be. god's knowledge of that doesn't, (in your argument), mean they have no free will.
No Adam and eve did not choose to be. They chose to accept satans lie and rebel. Have you not read the Bible?
god created Adam knowing specifically that he would sin. Instead why not create a being that he specifically knew wouldn't? What has changed? How is the second person any more "locked" than the first?
It makes perfect sense. If you contend otherwise you should attempt a little more than just saying so. Explain where you think the issue is.
Because God knew that Adams rebellion would serve His eternal purpose. He did not create Adam to rebel but created Him with free will so that the path of rebellion was possible. But still in the end it was Adams decision to rebel.
Adam was not locked, I have not stated that He was. I stated if God removed their free will to rebel then they would have been locked.
Please try to read what i am saying before replying.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
SnakeLord
01-29-08, 08:16 AM
No Adam and eve did not choose to be. They chose to accept satans lie and rebel. Have you not read the Bible?
Context. I am not saying they 'chose to be' as in chose to exist, but 'chose to be' as in chose to be... obedient to.
So, they are not locked in obedience, they chose to be.. in obedience. Come on, are you doing this just to avoid the point?
Because God knew that Adams rebellion would serve His eternal purpose. He did not create Adam to rebel but created Him with free will so that the path of rebellion was possible. But still in the end it was Adams decision to rebel.
So god created a being that would sin vs one that wouldn't.. because that was what he, (god), wanted? I have no quarrel with that.
Adam was not locked, I have not stated that He was. I stated if God removed their free will to rebel then they would have been locked.
Please try to read what i am saying before replying.
I didn't say he was, I said the second person would be no more 'locked' than the first person, (ergo not locked).
Please try to read what I am saying before replying.
Context. I am not saying they 'chose to be' as in chose to exist, but 'chose to be' as in chose to be... obedient to.
So, they are not locked in obedience, they chose to be.. in obedience. Come on, are you doing this just to avoid the point?
Once again Adam and Eve DID NOT Choose to be Obedient to the will of God. They chose rebellion. :bugeye:
Avoiding the point??? your point is that Adam and eve where obedient... I am not avoiding it I am telling you flat our straight that they where NOT OBEDIENT.
This discussion is surreal.
So god created a being that would sin vs one that wouldn't.. because that was what he, (god), wanted? I have no quarrel with that.
I didn't say he was, I said the second person would be no more 'locked' than the first person, (ergo not locked).
Please try to read what I am saying before replying.
What are you arguing here? Are you arguing like me that people are not locked? We seem to be having an argument where we both trying to convince each other that we agree "that they where not locked"
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Once again Adam and Eve DID NOT Choose to be Obedient to the will of God. They chose rebellion.
Avoiding the point??? your point is that Adam and eve where obedient... I am not avoiding it I am telling you flat our straight that they where NOT OBEDIENT.
Maybe they just didn't like the idea of being gods pets. I wouldn't either.
SnakeLord
01-29-08, 09:45 AM
Avoiding the point??? your point is that Adam and eve where obedient... I am not avoiding it I am telling you flat our straight that they where NOT OBEDIENT.
All due respect but perhaps you should take some of your own advice, (listening etc), and apply it.
I am not saying that Adam and Eve were obedient, you are clearly aware of this and are simply distracting the issue from the actual issue. I have put it to you several times now and yet you continue on some weird irrelevancies that weren't actually said, indeed the excuse could only seemingly come from someone either devoid of intelligence or someone trying to distract the issue.
Here it is again:
god created Adam and Eve knowing full well that they would choose to sin/disobey.
Why instead would he not create Ben and Jane who would choose to not sin/to obey and thus avoid all the issues that have come from his decision?
You contended earlier that these people, (Ben and Jane), would be "locked into obedience", that they would have no choice or free will. I have explained several times now why that is in error unless you would also assert the same for Adam and Eve. I said they would be no more 'locked' than Adam and Eve but for some reason you have completely pulled that apart and tried to make up new meaning for it.
god created two beings specifically knowing they would choose to sin. Why not create two beings that he specifically knew would choose not to sin? Free will is still intact and countless billions don't burn. It's a win win situation.
Do you understand what is being said now? Should I draw a picture perhaps?
Ok.
People burn because they sin AND reject the will of God, Not just because they sin. God has provided a way for sinners to have their sins atoned for through the Messiah.
When you said why did God not create two people who would obey Him, you are saying that God could have controlled the future decision of the free willed people he created. Once God created two free willed beings the ball was in their court, Once the creation ball was rolling He could not bring it back. God could not simply bring to an end the existence of Adam and eve and try again until he got two individuals who would make the right decision. Because God is Just and loving toward His creation and both Adam and eve have the opportunity to have eternity with God.
I believe once someone exists they will exist forever. therefore God would not desire to cease the existence of anyone. Irrespective of their response to His will.
I also believe that the universe was created by God as a place where God and satan could demonstrate to the heavenly host their claims. Creation serves Gods greater purpose, I do not believe God created the universe as the centre of His purpose. Creation is a tool that serves His purpose, the universe in itself is not the main game. The main Game is in Heaven not on earth. And it is a game that God has already Won.
Your whole question seems to be based on the belief that God could just wipe His first creation and keep on making new ones until he got the right result. But wiping creation would be both against Gods Love for His creation and Would show the heavenly host a victory for satan over the will of God. In the long run all that has happened in creation will demonstrate both the righteousness of Gods will and the falseness of satans claim. All things work towards the ultimate good.
All Praise The Ancient Of Day
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Maybe they just didn't like the idea of being gods pets. I wouldn't either.
Yeah they where proud alright.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
[QUOTE=Adstar;1731913]Ok.
People burn because they sin AND reject the will of God, Not just because they sin. God has provided a way for sinners to have their sins atoned for through the Messiah.
When you said why did God not create two people who would obey Him, you are saying that God could have controlled the future decision of the free willed people he created. Once God created two free willed beings the ball was in their court, Once the creation ball was rolling He could not bring it back. God could not simply bring to an end the existence of Adam and eve and try again until he got two individuals who would make the right decision. Because God is Just and loving toward His creation and both Adam and eve have the opportunity to have eternity with God.
I believe once someone exists they will exist forever. therefore God would not desire to cease the existence of anyone. Irrespective of their response to His will.
I also believe that the universe was created by God as a place where God and satan could demonstrate to the heavenly host their claims. Creation serves Gods greater purpose, I do not believe God created the universe as the centre of His purpose. Creation is a tool that serves His purpose, the universe in itself is not the main game. The main Game is in Heaven not on earth. And it is a game that God has already Won.
Your whole question seems to be based on the belief that God could just wipe His first creation and keep on making new ones until he got the right result. But wiping creation would be both against Gods Love for His creation and Would show the heavenly host a victory for satan over the will of God. In the long run all that has happened in creation will demonstrate both the righteousness of Gods will and the falseness of satans claim. All things work towards the ultimate good.
All Praise The Ancient days
But isn't that just what he did when he sent the deluge. The fact that Noah and his family were spared is beside the point. And what about all those animals who didn't get into the ark ? Were they also sinners ?
None of this makes any sense to me
sowhatifit'sdark
01-30-08, 05:33 AM
Yeah they where proud alright.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
No, no. The resentful humble are the ones with the worst pride. They often build religions around their hate and fear.
But isn't that just what he did when he sent the deluge. The fact that Noah and his family were spared is beside the point. And what about all those animals who didn't get into the ark ? Were they also sinners ?
None of this makes any sense to me[/QUOTE]
Noah and His family is not beside the point. But irrespective of that side issue:
None of the people who died in the flood ceased to exist. They all still exists. And i believe salvation was opened to them upon the antonment of the Messiah Jesus.
1 Peter 3
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
SnakeLord
01-30-08, 07:10 AM
People burn because they sin AND reject the will of God, Not just because they sin.
Right, the question still stands.
When you said why did God not create two people who would obey Him, you are saying that God could have controlled the future decision of the free willed people he created.
No more so than with Adam and Eve. When he set about with his decision to creat certain beings, he knew every little and final detail of their existence - including how they would act and behave. There are no surprises for him, merely an absolutely inevitable and unavoidable outcome that he is fully aware of before he even went about shaping the clay that made them. Every thought of theirs, every decision, everytime they took a pee - all completely known before the act.
So where do you contend the difference is in making Ben and Jane instead? He would still know every little detail, every thought, every action. They would still be making their own choices, have their own free will just like Adam and Eve. The only difference would be the outcome.
This god entity made a conscious willed decision to create these two specific beings. He could have made that same decision but instead created Ben and Jane and avoided the eternal burning of many billions sometime far in the future.
God could not simply bring to an end the existence of Adam and eve and try again until he got two individuals who would make the right decision.
He wouldn't have to bring an end to the existence of Adam or Eve unless of course he rolled a dice or flipped a coin and saw what version of a being popped out - but that cannot be argued given his omniscience. He knew exactly what kind of being he was going to poop out and he made the choice to make that exact kind of being.
I also believe that the universe was created by God as a place where God and satan could demonstrate to the heavenly host their claims.
So we are here to witness cosmic ego at work? A perfect entity would not have need or want for such petty nonsense.
And it is a game that God has already Won.
Only a complete blithering twonk sets up the game board knowing he's already won. It comes down to nothing more than showing off.
Your whole question seems to be based on the belief that God could just wipe His first creation
Incorrect, they need not have been created in the first place, much like Adams first wife Lilith. This god knew exactly what type of being it would create. Every thought, feeling, action, their behaviour and so on and so forth. If you contend that god had no idea, he just lumped together some clay and that was that then fine. The minute it is asserted that god is omniscient is the minute this comes into play because he made the decision to make a being that would sin and reject as opposed to one that wouldn't. In both cases free will would remain intact, one would just lead to a lot less burning.
But wiping creation would be both against Gods Love for His creation and Would show the heavenly host a victory for satan over the will of God.
1) He "wiped" every single living thing on the planet bar a small handful, (mainly for sacrificial purposes).
2) That the mass majority will burn in hell is clearly a victory for satan.
In the long run all that has happened in creation will demonstrate both the righteousness of Gods will and the falseness of satans claim.
What claim of satans was false?
All things work towards the ultimate good
The majority burning in a pit of fire forever and ever... That's good? :bugeye:
I agree. The pit is analogy... nothing more and nothing less. What the nature of this analogy is, is certainly now up for debate. I see it as the ancients had. Fire cleanses, and through fire will only our souls be cleansed.
But isn't that just what he did when he sent the deluge. The fact that Noah and his family were spared is beside the point. And what about all those animals who didn't get into the ark ? Were they also sinners ?
None of this makes any sense to me
Noah and His family is not beside the point. But irrespective of that side issue:
None of the people who died in the flood ceased to exist. They all still exists. And i believe salvation was opened to them upon the antonment of the Messiah Jesus.
1 Peter 3
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Sounds like another miracle; they drowned but they did not die. How was salvation open to them when it was only Noah and family who knew when the flood was coming ?
Leo Volont
02-10-08, 12:13 AM
I wish to examine some of what I regard as contradictions in the Bible and see what explanations, if any, are forthcoming.
The first question I would like to pose is this :
Why did god create pigs and why did Noah save two of them when they are regarded as unclean animals in the Bible ?
Please keep to the topic , as I have I have a number of questions I should like to raise one at a time
Thanks
Remember that after the Jews were rescued from Babylon by the Persians, in exchange for the Jews opening up a Gate or two (and this was clearly after the Jews had been given every right of Citizen in Babylon... making their betrayal a shameful act of treachery for those who had tried to show the Jews some Good Will... a recurring mistake in History for anybody who does so... just refer to America that has been dragged down to next to ruin because of its Alliance with the Jews). Anyway, the Persian rewarded the Treason of the Jews by giving them many thousands of Sheep and Goats, and they were given an Army Regiment of Persian Regulars to escort them back to Old Judea. The People of Judea, who had since the Babylonnian Captivity, reestablished themselves (only the Rich Classes had been taken to Babylon, as hostages to Peace) were invaded and subjugated by the Persian Military and handed over to their Jewish Clients, who had hundreds of thousands head of sheep and goat to sell.
Read the Bible and we find that the Jews Returning to Babylon FOUND a LOST Scripture which included all the Works regarding Moses (before Babylon, absolutely NO Jewish Literature refers to Moses or to Egypt... the Jews in Babylon BORROWED that entire Chapter for their 'History' because it seemed so fascinating to them. The Wealthy Jews from Babylon actually DESIGNED and WROTE a Religion. Anyway, since they had so many Sheep and Goats to sell, and since they had a Regiment from the Persian Army to enforce their dictates, they OUTLAWED PORK in order to raise the price of MUTTON.
God had nothing to do with it... which is nearly always the case when we discuss the actions of Jews.
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