"Allah" is the god of the christians, muslims, and jews

[USS Exeter]

So, I have recently been in debate with several religious conservatives on this topic. They didn't believe me whn they heard that the muslims believe that their god is also the god of the christians and the Jews. What do you know about this?

[Medicine*Woman]

So, I have recently been in debate with several religious conservatives on this topic. They didn't believe me whn they heard that the muslims believe that their god is also the god of the christians and the Jews. What do you know about this?
*************
M*W: Makes sense to me. There's not much difference between "Al-lah" and "El-oh."

[losfomoT]

Yes it is the same god.

"Muslims believe that God revealed the Qur'an to Muhammad, God's final prophet, and regard the Qur'an and the Sunnah (words and deeds of Muhammad) as the fundamental sources of Islam.[5] They do not regard Muhammad as the founder of a new religion, but as the restorer of the original monotheistic faith of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and other prophets. Islamic tradition holds that Jews and Christians distorted the texts God gave to these prophets by either altering the text, using a false interpretation, or both."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam

[Exiled]

I always thought so.

Something more fascinating is the similarities between the “end time” revelations.

“The descending of Jesus Christ from heaven and praying behind the Mahdi. He would in his time, kill the swine, break the cross and kill the infidels.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End_times#Islam

Plus, Jews, Christians and Muslims alike acknowledge the importance of Abraham.

[sandy]

No, Allah is not the same God as the God of Christianity. The God of Christianity is God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ) and God the Holy Spirit.

[spidergoat]

Are Christian bibles ever translated into arabic? What word do they use for God?

[Kadark]

Are Christian bibles ever translated into arabic? What word do they use for God?

Arab Christians and Arab Jews call God "Allah". This is nothing new.

Also, let me make things clear: Muslims consider the God of the Jews and Christians to be the same God they believe in; Christians and Jews, however, believe that the Muslim God is different from the God they believe in.

Make any sense?

[superstring01]

Arab Christians and Arab Jews call God "Allah". This is nothing new.

Also, let me make things clear: Muslims consider the God of the Jews and Christians to be the same God they believe in; Christians and Jews, however, believe that the Muslim God is different from the God they believe in.

Make any sense?

You are correct.

~String

[USS Exeter]

No, Allah is not the same God as the God of Christianity. The God of Christianity is God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ) and God the Holy Spirit.

Allah just means "god" in arabic. Any english speaking muslim would say god. Secondly, according to the islam prophet mohammed, he actuallyh acknoloedged that Jesus and Abraham were both prophets of Islam. Muslims believe that Jesus was a major prophet. Surprised?

[Asguard]

Why is this in the formal debate forum? If there is no formal debate then this should be moved to religion

[Ghost_007]

No real debate to be had here.

I think the concept of God from matey's that believe in the Trinity is more open to discussion. That concept (trinity) is quite far off the idea of one God.

[Michael]

Arab Christians and Arab Jews call God "Allah". This is nothing new.

Also, let me make things clear: Muslims consider the God of the Jews and Christians to be the same God they believe in; Christians and Jews, however, believe that the Muslim God is different from the God they believe in.

Make any sense?This may be true BUT in real terms the Xian God is composed of three parts, God/Jesus/HolyGhost while the Jewish God is not and the Muslim God is not.

I'd say there are at least two Gods. Probably three because the Jewish God is really only the God of the Jews. An argument could be made that the Muslims incorporated the Jewish God into their myth and thus maybe it is the same God (at leas to them).


What about the Mormon God? Is this the same God as the Jewish, Xian and Muslim God? What about the Baha'i God - same God?

[chuuush]

So, I have recently been in debate with several religious conservatives on this topic. They didn't believe me whn they heard that the muslims believe that their god is also the god of the christians and the Jews. What do you know about this?

According to Islamic teachings Allah (or God, or Gott, or Dieu, or Khoda, or Tanrı, or Yehve or 신 or whatever you call it in your language = it is this simple actually, different names in different languages for the same being) is the unique creator of the earth and the heavens. He is one and the only one because his omnipotent and absolute needless nature makes it impossible and absolutely unnecessary for another one to exist just as a man can not and need not have two hearts.

The five major prophets according to Islam are Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Mohammed (May God's Peace be upon them all)
God doesn't and needn't have a son or a wife or any other entity to help him, guide him or advise him, but he sent down the prophets from human beings to guide their fellow humans to His path. Belieiving in more than one God is not monotheism.

[Adstar]

It's simple. muslims believe that their god allah is the same as the God of Abraham. Christians do not believe the god of the muslims is the God of Abraham.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[sowhatifit'sdark]

It's simple. muslims believe that their god allah is the same as the God of Abraham. Christians do not believe the god of the muslims is the God of Abraham.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Who do they believe Allah is?

[Mind Sifter]

It's simple. muslims believe that their god allah is the same as the God of Abraham. Christians do not believe the god of the muslims is the God of Abraham.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

yes. i agree with you. it is that simple. most christians believe that and after all we are talking about beliefs here, right?

[SnakeLord]

omnipotent and absolute needless nature makes it impossible and absolutely unnecessary for another one to exist just as a man can not and need not have two hearts.

And yet this omnipotent, absolutely needless natured entity made humans, and slugs, and angels, and demons, and pubic lice. If this entity was needless, then none of us would exist with the express purpose of worshipping at its feet. It is clearly very needy indeed.

As for the topic, All these gods are based upon earlier gods.. that's how it works.

[chuuush]

And yet this omnipotent, absolutely needless natured entity made humans, and slugs, and angels, and demons, and pubic lice. If this entity was needless, then none of us would exist with the express purpose of worshipping at its feet. It is clearly very needy indeed.

As for the topic, All these gods are based upon earlier gods.. that's how it works.

Being absolutely needless, God (Allah) also has the attribute of being all-giving. It means His nature makes it indispensable that He gives or creates whatever deserves to be. That's why he created all the creatures. Because they had the capacity of being created. What He wants in exchange for betowing such existence to the creatures is that they worship Him (meaning follow His rules, not specifically doing physical praying only) and do not create mayhem in his world or break His laws.

[losfomoT]

It's simple. muslims believe that their god allah is the same as the God of Abraham. Christians do not believe the god of the muslims is the God of Abraham.

It doesn't really matter what Christians believe as far as Muslims or any other religions are concerned.

The Muslims believe that their God is the God of Abraham.

The Christians believe that their god is the God of Abraham.

Therefore both religions worship the same God.

[Cris]

They all began based on the same mythology.

[chuuush]

They all began based on the same mythology.

Mythology! what mythology?

[Michael]

God doesn't and needn't have a son or a wife or any other entity to help him, guide him or advise him, but he sent down the prophets from human beings to..... Ha, it really is funny isn't it.

God needn't have a son because I don't believe in that shit. BUT God did see fit to use human Prophets because I do believe in that shit....

[Adstar]

Who do they believe Allah is?

One of the many idols that where worshiped in mecca before muhammed and his followers imposed islam upon the region.

muhammed simply adopted one of the idols names to be the name of god.


All Praise The Ancient of Days

[Adstar]

yes. i agree with you. it is that simple. most christians believe that and after all we are talking about beliefs here, right?

Correct.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Adstar]

It doesn't really matter what Christians believe as far as Muslims or any other religions are concerned.

The Muslims believe that their God is the God of Abraham.

The Christians believe that their god is the God of Abraham.

Therefore both religions worship the same God.

No. We do not worship the same God. End of story.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[losfomoT]

No. We do not worship the same God. End of story.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days


Sorry, you're wrong. End of story.


All praise the Age of Reason

[Mind Sifter]

It doesn't really matter what Christians believe as far as Muslims or any other religions are concerned.

The Muslims believe that their God is the God of Abraham.

The Christians believe that their god is the God of Abraham.

Therefore both religions worship the same God.

it's useless, dude. you're banging your head against a wall here. he believe what he want to. this is not a discussion. :D

[Mind Sifter]

One of the many idols that where worshiped in mecca before muhammed and his followers imposed islam upon the region.

muhammed simply adopted one of the idols names to be the name of god.


All Praise The Ancient of Days

and the christian adopted three.

[chuuush]

Ha, it really is funny isn't it.

God needn't have a son because I don't believe in that shit. BUT God did see fit to use human Prophets because I do believe in that shit....

Where were you raised, in a cave? I wrote there in that same post why exactly God doesn't need any wife or child and why He sent down human prophets.. why do you just try to distort my words.. this is sophistry not reasoning, you can counter me with reason, if you can that is..

[chuuush]

One of the many idols that where worshiped in mecca before muhammed and his followers imposed islam upon the region.

muhammed simply adopted one of the idols names to be the name of god.

All Praise The Ancient of Days

Does similarity of names makes them the same being. I mean can you not just compare the attribute to the two. I do not think it will be a very enlightening discussion if you just pour out whatever you read in some sites or books without thinking deeply about them. As a person living in an Islamic country I used to feel sorry that my muslims fellows, mostly muslim in name only, do not bother their butts to use their brains and rationalize, but after I learnt more about this world in sites like here I can say, that is, unfortunately, a worldwide epidemic.

[Adstar]

and the christian adopted three.

No all 3 are One. :D


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Reiku]

God is God.

Leave all the other incongruities to the side.

[Adstar]

Does similarity of names makes them the same being.

Ohh So you know about this, but you have decided to disregard the information, right?

For those who do not know about this let me let you in on the info.

muhammad's father was named abdullah, that name means servant of allah.

muhammad's uncle was named Abdul manaf that means servant of manaf, one of the many idols what where worshiped in pre-islamic mecca.

Now both these brothers where named by their father who was muhammads grandfather who was an idol worshiping pagan.

Now would an idol worshipping pagan name one of his sons abdullah (servent of allah) if allah was the name of the Monotheistic God of the Jews who would not tolerate any idols before Him?

Simple answer. Not on your life. He was naming his sons to honor the idols he worshiped in the hope that they too would faithfully worship the idols they where named after during their lives.

An interesting side note is that muhammads uncle Abdul manaf held on to his pagan beliefs right up to just before the time of his death seems like he was determined to remain loyal to manaf.

So it is clear that the name of allah is Not the name of the God of Abraham in anyone’s language but the name of a pre-islamic arabian pagan idol that muhammad or the one that directed him choose to use as the name of the God of Abraham YAVEH.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[sowhatifit'sdark]

One of the many idols that where worshiped in mecca before muhammed and his followers imposed islam upon the region.

muhammed simply adopted one of the idols names to be the name of god.


All Praise The Ancient of Days

So he adopted a name for God. It sounds like you feel he chose the wrong name, but for God. (I did note that you have a small g there). Do you mean then that when Muslims pray they do not pray to the real God. That they cannot connect to God through their religion?

[Adstar]

So he adopted a name for God. It sounds like you feel he chose the wrong name, but for God. (I did note that you have a small g there). Do you mean then that when Muslims pray they do not pray to the real God. That they cannot connect to God through their religion?

Their religion has never given them a connection to the God of Abraham.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[sowhatifit'sdark]

Their religion has never given them a connection to the God of Abraham.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

You cannot know that all Muslims are not praying to and loving the same God you do. You cannot know this.

[Adstar]

You cannot know that all Muslims are not praying to and loving the same God you do. You cannot know this.

But i do. :) Indeed i do.

muslims do not follow a god because there is only one God the God of Abraham. muslims follow the one who communicated with muhammad, an "angel" or should i say, formerly an angel.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[(Q)]

But i do. :) Indeed i do.

muslims do not follow a god because there is only one God the God of Abraham. muslims follow the one who communicated with muhammad, an "angel" or should i say, formerly an angel.

I was wondering when one of these discussions would eventually come up, where the three little orphans play the ultimate game show:

"Whose Your (Sky) Daddy"

[Captain Kremmen]

The Aramaic word for God, spoken by Jesus, is Elah.
Isn't Allah just the word for God?

Some Hebraic scripture is about people reverting to old Gods.

None of these religions sprang out of nowhere.

[chuuush]

Ohh So you know about this, but you have decided to disregard the information, right?

For those who do not know about this let me let you in on the info.

muhammad's father was named abdullah, that name means servant of allah.

muhammad's uncle was named Abdul manaf that means servant of manaf, one of the many idols what where worshiped in pre-islamic mecca.

Now both these brothers where named by their father who was muhammads grandfather who was an idol worshiping pagan.

Now would an idol worshipping pagan name one of his sons abdullah (servent of allah) if allah was the name of the Monotheistic God of the Jews who would not tolerate any idols before Him?

Simple answer. Not on your life. He was naming his sons to honor the idols he worshiped in the hope that they too would faithfully worship the idols they where named after during their lives.

An interesting side note is that muhammads uncle Abdul manaf held on to his pagan beliefs right up to just before the time of his death seems like he was determined to remain loyal to manaf.

So it is clear that the name of allah is Not the name of the God of Abraham in anyone’s language but the name of a pre-islamic arabian pagan idol that muhammad or the one that directed him choose to use as the name of the God of Abraham YAVEH.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I mean what's your point then? Yes according to some sayings, authentic or not, there was an idol in Kaaba called Allah. So what? Do you mean that muslims are worshipping an idol? What characteristics do you attribue to Abrahan's God that does not exist in Muslim's Allah? If same characteristics, then they are the same. No need for sophistry..

[losfomoT]

But i do. :) Indeed i do.

muslims do not follow a god because there is only one God the God of Abraham. muslims follow the one who communicated with muhammad, an "angel" or should i say, formerly an angel.

Says you.

A name is just a name. Regardless of how the name came about, Muslims currently worship the God of Abraham. It doesn't matter IF the name started out as the name of an idol. Today, Muslims believe that the God of Abraham is the one true God... just like you do. There's no denying this FACT.

Certainly views have split since the Old Testament. I, personally, do not believe in any God... but from my perspective, the Muslims are holding much closer to the God of Abraham than any Christian sub-religion. Don't mistake that I believe this to be a good thing.

[spidergoat]

The Quoran talks about Jesus as a prophet. What more proof do you need?

[Michael]

I wrote there in that same post why exactly God doesn't need any wife or child and why He sent down human prophets.. My point was it's ALL bullshit. See here:

God needed to have a Son. God also needed a wife. God did not need a Prophet - so any thing about Gods sun... I mean son, Jesus is based on fact anything about God's wife Sophia is also fact anything about Mohammad is completely made up.



You see chuuush, that's the funny thing about believing in an invisible flying spaghetti monster - you can make the sauce whatever flavor you like because it's all bullshit anyway.

BUT, what is pathetic is to see people argue over the flavor of the sauce. Kill in the name flying spaghetti monster over the flavor of the sauce.


See it goes JUST like this:

God doesn't and needn't have a son or a wife or any other entity to help him, guide him or advise him, but he sent down the prophets from human beings to guide their fellow humans to His path. Believing in more than one God is not monotheism.

God doesn't and needn't have a son (because chuuush doesn't believe IT had a son) or a wife (because chuuush doesn't believe IT had a wife [note: God did have a Gay lover once]) or any other entity to help him, guide him or advise him, but he sent down the prophets (because chuuush believes he had Prophets) from human beings to guide their fellow humans to His path. Believing in more than one God is not monotheism.


Or this makes EQUALLY as much sense and, funny enough, we have EQUALLY as much evidence for it, as evidence we have for you're assertions about God chuuush:


the flying spaghetti monster doesn't and needn't have a spoon or a fork or any other plate ware to serve him, portion him out him or mix him, but he sent down the great fork for human beings to guide their fellow humans to His noodles. Believing in more than one type of spaghetti is not monopastaian.


Michael

[Michael]

The main difference is the God of Xians is three parts: Jesus, the Holy Ghost and Jehovah all rolled up into YHWA. The Muslims God is one part - Allah.

[Norsefire]

Of course they are the same, unless there is more than one God?
Remember, Christianity has roots in Judaism and Islam has roots in Christianity and Judaism.

For instance, all three religions believe in Adam and Eve.

[SnakeLord]

Remember, Christianity has roots in Judaism and Islam has roots in Christianity and Judaism.


And judaism comes from the Sumerians and base their adam on adamu, eden on e-din, the nephilim on the anunnaki and so on and so forth. Ultimately they're all worshipping Marduk.

[USS Exeter]

The Quoran talks about Jesus as a prophet. What more proof do you need?

The Qu'ran also says that Abraham was the first prophet of god. And instead of him attempting to sacrifice his son Isaac, he attepts to sacrifice his other son, Ishmael, instead. That change in strory leads to the religion Islam.

[Michael]

Of course they are the same, unless there is more than one God?
Remember, Christianity has roots in Judaism and Islam has roots in Christianity and Judaism.

For instance, all three religions believe in Adam and Eve.How about the Shinto Gods? Are they all a part of God too? Or the Egyptian ones or the Aztec ones?

How about the Mormon God? Is that the same God?
There is no God but Jehovah and John Smith is his messenger.....

[Norsefire]

How about the Shinto Gods? Are they all a part of God too? Or the Egyptian ones or the Aztec ones?

How about the Mormon God? Is that the same God?
There is no God but Jehovah and John Smith is his messenger.....

The Aztec and Egyptian gods are in no way related to Abrahamic religion. Since Abrahamic religion is very much so tied together, it is reasonable to assume that the three do indeed worship the same God, but have different interpretations on how to do so and His history.

[Adstar]

The teachings of muhammed are in rebellion to the teachings of Jesus.

Jesus is the Messiah. His teachings are the will of God for His followers on earth.

That’s the basics.

And there is absolutely no way that The God of Abraham would direct one of His Prophets to tell a people to use the name of an idol to refer to Him.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Adstar]

Says you.

A name is just a name. Regardless of how the name came about, Muslims currently worship the God of Abraham. It doesn't matter IF the name started out as the name of an idol. Today, Muslims believe that the God of Abraham is the one true God... just like you do. There's no denying this FACT.

I do not deny that muslims believe that they are following the God of Abraham. I am saying that they have been deceived into believing they are following the God of Abraham.


Certainly views have split since the Old Testament. I, personally, do not believe in any God... but from my perspective, the Muslims are holding much closer to the God of Abraham than any Christian sub-religion. Don't mistake that I believe this to be a good thing.

What worth is the view of a person on whom is following the will of the God of Abraham when they are an unbeliever?

muslims are trying to hold on to the law as a basis for salvation. But they are not even teaching the full law. They do not eat pork but they fail to follow the many other dietary laws established in the Torah. Christians embrace the Grace of the New Covenant established by the Messiah Jesus.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Michael]

The Aztec and Egyptian gods are in no way related to Abrahamic religion. Since Abrahamic religion is very much so tied together, it is reasonable to assume that the three do indeed worship the same God, but have different interpretations on how to do so and His history.Ahhh I see BUT I thought you were making the point that there is One God and hence everyone must ultimately be worshiping the same entity.

Anyway, I see your point. With this in mind then. Are the Mormons and the Baha'i worshiping the same God? they are both extensions of the Abrahamic religions after all.

[chuuush]

I do not deny that muslims believe that they are following the God of Abraham. I am saying that they have been deceived into believing they are following the God of Abraham.

What worth is the view of a person on whom is following the will of the God of Abraham when they are an unbeliever?

muslims are trying to hold on to the law as a basis for salvation. But they are not even teaching the full law. They do not eat pork but they fail to follow the many other dietary laws established in the Torah. Christians embrace the Grace of the New Covenant established by the Messiah Jesus.

You say that Muslims do not follow the God of Abraham, because they were deceived to believe they are beliveing in the God of Abraham. On the other hand, what muslims say is a bit more simple. Muslims say it was the same God who sent his angels to Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammed (not to count the many other prophets), so according to Islam all these religions basically believe(d) in the same God.

If you claim that muslims do not believe in the same God, then just tell us who the God of abraham is actually? Tel us his attributes so we can compare and see what are the difference? Or tell us what is there in the God of Abraham that the God of muslims lacks? I'm ready for a soul search if you just make me understand the differences..

[losfomoT]

I do not deny that muslims believe that they are following the God of Abraham. I am saying that they have been deceived into believing they are following the God of Abraham.

That doesn't make any sense. If they believe they are following the God of Abraham, then that is what they are doing.

What worth is the view of a person on whom is following the will of the God of Abraham when they are an unbeliever?

An unbeliever in what way? Because they don't believe that Christ was God himself (or the Son of God, or 1/3 of God, or the Messiah, or whatever)?

muslims are trying to hold on to the law as a basis for salvation.

Same as Christians.

But they are not even teaching the full law.

The same can be said between Christian sub-religions. In Christianity, the 'full law' and the importance of those laws changes depending on whether you are Roman Catholic, or Anglican, or Protestant, or (on and on). What type of Christian are you? Are you saying that other Christians are also being deceived into believing they are following the God of Abraham, when they are really not? How many Christians live by exactly the right rules, and follow those rules to the letter? 6? 7? Does it not have to be exact? Is close good enough? How close?

[Michael]

Is Allah the God of the Mandaeans?
Is John the Baptist the most honored of Allah's messengers?

Is Allah the God of the Mormons?
Was John Smith the Last Prophet?

Is Allah the God of the Baha'i?
Was Bahá'u'lláh the Last Adam?

These are ALL extensions of the same mythology - they all have something to say on Adam, Moses, Jesus, etc... etc... etc...

So? Do they ALL worship the same God?
Michael

[chuuush]

Is Allah the God of the Mandaeans?
Is John the Baptist the most honored of Allah's messengers?

Is Allah the God of the Mormons?
Was John Smith the Last Prophet?

Is Allah the God of the Baha'i?
Was Bahá'u'lláh the Last Adam?

These are ALL extensions of the same mythology - they all have something to say on Adam, Moses, Jesus, etc... etc... etc...

So? Do they ALL worship the same God?
Michael

If they believe in one God which is invisible, omnipotent, all-knowing and merciful without any human needs, yes they are actually worshipping the same God.

[Michael]

If they believe in one God which is invisible, omnipotent, all-knowing and merciful without any human needs, yes they are actually worshipping the same God.That's interesting.

What about these questions:

Is John the Baptist the most honored of Allah's messengers?
Was John Smith the Last Prophet?
Was Bahá'u'lláh the Last Adam?

[Revolvr]

The Muslim God Allah has no relation to, and is completely different, from the Judeo-Christian God. Most Muslim beliefs are actually quite the opposite of Christianity.

Muhammad claims he was just one in a long line of prophets and Islam is an extension of Judaism and Christianity He needed to do this to claim legitimacy for his made up religion. Muhammad claims the prophets (Abraham, all the way to Jesus) prophesied the coming of Muhammad. They did not of course. So Muhammad had to claim also that the Christian and Jewish books were corrupted and forgeries (the Old and New Testaments).

So when Muslims are ecumenically generous to Christians or Jews, they are lying. The Qur’an says Christians and Jews are cursed and eternally in enmity with Muslims. And that’s how they act.

Jesus’ entire message is opposite to Muhammad. Muhammad brings hate and violence. Jesus brings love and grace.

Someone above mentioned the Christian and Islamic eschatology are similar. They are, but as mirror images. Each tells the story from the opposite side. Christianity has the Antichrist. Islam has the Mahdi. Christianity has the False Prophet who comes and kills Christians and Jews. Islam has the Islamic version of Jesus who comes and kills all non-Muslims. That includes atheists.

[S.A.M.]

Muslims recognise Jesus, Moses, Abraham etc as Prophets. They also recognise the Judeo-Christian God as the Islamic one. Whether you believe it or not, does not change the fact that Muslims believe there is only one God.

[Norsefire]

Ahhh I see BUT I thought you were making the point that there is One God and hence everyone must ultimately be worshiping the same entity.

Anyway, I see your point. With this in mind then. Are the Mormons and the Baha'i worshiping the same God? they are both extensions of the Abrahamic religions after all.

Yes, but their interpretations of that God is distorted.

[S.A.M.]

Yes, but their interpretations of that God is distorted.

I would not say their interpretations are distorted, I would say they have different ways of expressing their beliefs. They are as free to choose their beliefs as Muslims are to choose theirs.

[Arsalan]

Jesus’ entire message is opposite to Muhammad. Muhammad brings hate and violence. Jesus brings love and grace.

ogh yes, when the Quran tells Muslims to fight those people who fight them then all its doing is spreading hate and violence :rolleyes: Btw, are you saying there is no violence allowed in Christianity?:confused:

Christianity is flawed because as you claim its message is of love and grace, those are only 2 faculties endowed to mankind. Thats all great but its also available in Islam. On top of that Islam has teachings which make use of ALL human faculties, not just 2.

Someone above mentioned the Christian and Islamic eschatology are similar. They are, but as mirror images. Each tells the story from the opposite side. Christianity has the Antichrist. Islam has the Mahdi. Christianity has the False Prophet who comes and kills Christians and Jews. Islam has the Islamic version of Jesus who comes and kills all non-Muslims. That includes atheists.

You do know that the debate about the Mahdi and the Anti-Christ in Islam is not as simple as you would put it right?

Also, the reason Bahaiullah is not accepted is simple: he claimed divinity for himself and said he brought a new Sharia. That is against Islamic teachings and thats why he is not accepted as a true Prophet. Besides, the whole Bab thing is an old Shiite custom and nothing new. Bahaism has its roots therefore in Islam.

[Adstar]

That doesn't make any sense. If they believe they are following the God of Abraham, then that is what they are doing.

You must have a very loose definition of the term follower. A follower knows the will of their leader agrees with and submits to the will of their leader doing their best to follow His teachings and never preaching doctrines against His teachings.

If a person does not know the rules of their leader what worth is their in their statement that they are a follower? Even if they believe they are a follower, if they do not know the will of their leader then they do not know their leader and therefore their belief is founded on nothing of worth.



Originally Posted by Adstar
muslims are trying to hold on to the law as a basis for salvation.

Same as Christians.

Same as some christians who also believe they are followers of Jesus but who do not know His will and therefore their faith is founded on nothing of worth as well.




The same can be said between Christian sub-religions. In Christianity, the 'full law' and the importance of those laws changes depending on whether you are Roman Catholic, or Anglican, or Protestant, or (on and on). What type of Christian are you? Are you saying that other Christians are also being deceived into believing they are following the God of Abraham, when they are really not? How many Christians live by exactly the right rules, and follow those rules to the letter? 6? 7? Does it not have to be exact? Is close good enough? How close?

I do not know, But from what i have experienced and the personal contacts i have had i would put down an optimistic ration of 1 in 1000. But i have a sad feeling that the actual figure might be more like 1 in 10,000.

Not many people who profess to be Christians actually are. Most of them come from smorgasbord religions made up of some elements of Christianity mixed with pagan concepts and other traditions of men.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Adstar]

You say that Muslims do not follow the God of Abraham, because they were deceived to believe they are beliveing in the God of Abraham. On the other hand, what muslims say is a bit more simple. Muslims say it was the same God who sent his angels to Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammed (not to count the many other prophets), so according to Islam all these religions basically believe(d) in the same God.

Angels talked to them?

Abraham's first contact with God was when God talked directly to Him. God Himself introduced Himself to Abraham and gave Abraham His will for him and His descendants.

Moses first contact with God was when God himself talked to Him when He was tending a flock, God talked to Him when He saw the burning bush that was not consumed by the fire.

Jesus of course is a different matter. As far as i know, and i am open to correction from any bible believing Christian who can quote an incident, there is no biblical record of an angel talking to Jesus. The first utterances of God mentioned in the gospels where Jesus was present was when he was baptised by John the Baptist and God said “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” I cannot even think of a recording in the bible of God giving Jesus directions as to what to teach and what to preach. But when we talk about the prophets in the Torah it is full of God telling them where to go who to talk to what to say and so forth.

So of the 3 you mentioned only 2 are prophets Abraham and Moses and their first contact was with God himself. Now for muhammad whom the quran claims is the greatest prophet was supposedly visited by a mere angel? So God choose to reveal himself directly to both Abraham and Moses decided that muhammad (who the quran claims is the greatest, the seal of the prophets) was not worthy of such an introduction? How odd.



If you claim that muslims do not believe in the same God, then just tell us who the God of abraham is actually? Tel us his attributes so we can compare and see what are the difference? Or tell us what is there in the God of Abraham that the God of muslims lacks? I'm ready for a soul search if you just make me understand the differences..

I doubt the anti-christ atheists who moderate this forum would allow such a discussion to continue beyond one or two posts. If you want to discuss this feel free to PM me.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[chuuush]

Angels talked to them?

Abraham's first contact with God was when God talked directly to Him. God Himself introduced Himself to Abraham and gave Abraham His will for him and His descendants.

Moses first contact with God was when God himself talked to Him when He was tending a flock, God talked to Him when He saw the burning bush that was not consumed by the fire.

Jesus of course is a different matter. As far as i know, and i am open to correction from any bible believing Christian who can quote an incident, there is no biblical record of an angel talking to Jesus. The first utterances of God mentioned in the gospels where Jesus was present was when he was baptised by John the Baptist and God said “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” I cannot even think of a recording in the bible of God giving Jesus directions as to what to teach and what to preach. But when we talk about the prophets in the Torah it is full of God telling them where to go who to talk to what to say and so forth.

So of the 3 you mentioned only 2 are prophets Abraham and Moses and their first contact was with God himself. Now for muhammad whom the quran claims is the greatest prophet was supposedly visited by a mere angel? So God choose to reveal himself directly to both Abraham and Moses decided that muhammad (who the quran claims is the greatest, the seal of the prophets) was not worthy of such an introduction? How odd.


Ok, I agree. I made a wrong generalization. What you said about God talking with Moses and Abraham is right quite possibly. But please reply my original question:
just tell us who the God of abraham is actually? Tel us his attributes so we can compare and see what are the difference? Or tell us what is there in the God of Abraham that the God of muslims lacks? I'm ready for a soul search if you just make me understand the differences..

[nova900]

I would not say their interpretations are distorted, I would say they have different ways of expressing their beliefs. They are as free to choose their beliefs as Muslims are to choose theirs.

Well said!
Look at all the expressions of the same God that exist here on earth then think of how many there may potentially exist in the vastness of the universe.
Perhaps God does not have hangups about religous idealogies after all ;)

[S.A.M.]

Well said!
Look at all the expressions of the same God that exist here on earth then think of how many there may potentially exist in the vastness of the universe.
Perhaps God does not have hangups about religous idealogies after all ;)

Most people get so caught up in what they think Islam says that they don't bother to find out what it actually says.

[sowhatifit'sdark]

The teachings of muhammed are in rebellion to the teachings of Jesus.

Jesus is the Messiah. His teachings are the will of God for His followers on earth.

That’s the basics.

And there is absolutely no way that The God of Abraham would direct one of His Prophets to tell a people to use the name of an idol to refer to Him.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

And speaking of proud people....
Unless you can be sure you are interpreting your bible correctly, your comments above are hubris. God, for all you know, might have set up a number of ways to reach him. Thus the good Mulsim teenager who dies in his village in the mountains of Afghanistan does not have to go to Hell because he did not accept Jesus as his savior - having barely even having heard of him and also being a good son who honors his mother and father, both Muslims, and joining his community in prayer in the Muslim tradition until the year of his death.

Only a sadist would worship a God he believed would send such a young man to hell to suffer torture for all eternity.

To love such a God would be to love, say, Pinochet or Stalin, but on the spiritual plane.

[S.A.M.]

And speaking of proud people....
Unless you can be sure you are interpreting your bible correctly, your comments above are hubris. God, for all you know, might have set up a number of ways to reach him.

Absolutely

[4:164] Messengers we have told you about, and messengers we never told you about.

[sowhatifit'sdark]

Absolutely

[4:164] Messengers we have told you about, and messengers we never told you about.
Can you translate those numbers into language for a pagan not having any luck with an online bible search.
Thanks

[S.A.M.]

Can you translate those numbers into language for a pagan not having any luck with an online bible search.
Thanks

It was from the Quran, but didn't Jesus say he came to uphold the law, not change it?

Thats what Mohammed said too.:)

[Michael]

Yes, but their interpretations of that God is distorted.Of course ... their interpretations.. yes I see :p


Is there any chance that yours could be the wrong interpretation?

[Michael]

Islam has teachings which make use of ALL human faculties, not just 2.Really? Like sexual perversion? Is that one? Is it? Is it? :p

[Michael]

I would not say their interpretations are distorted,Just that the possibility that their interpretations could be right can not exist.

How magnanimous!

[Arsalan]

Really? Like sexual perversion? Is that one? Is it? Is it? :p

Sexual perversion is not something which is allowed in Islam. Rather, it is the product of sick minds commenting on Islam ;)

[Michael]

Well you were making the point that the Qur'an comments on all manner of human faculties and the Bible only two!

So I thought I'd ask :)

[Adstar]

And speaking of proud people....
Unless you can be sure you are interpreting your bible correctly, your comments above are hubris. God, for all you know, might have set up a number of ways to reach him. Thus the good Mulsim teenager who dies in his village in the mountains of Afghanistan does not have to go to Hell because he did not accept Jesus as his savior - having barely even having heard of him and also being a good son who honors his mother and father, both Muslims, and joining his community in prayer in the Muslim tradition until the year of his death.

Only a sadist would worship a God he believed would send such a young man to hell to suffer torture for all eternity.

To love such a God would be to love, say, Pinochet or Stalin, but on the spiritual plane.

I do not believe that such a young man would necessarily be barred from eternity with God. To me rejection of the atonement of Jesus is what causes one to spend eternity in the lake of fire. In your example the young man never heard the truth about the Messiah Jesus, therefore it cannot be said that your young man rejected the truth, can it.

But for those who have received the Message of Jesus and have rejected it. Well i believe their eternal destination is the Lake of Fire.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Adstar]

Ok, I agree. I made a wrong generalization. What you said about God talking with Moses and Abraham is right quite possibly. But please reply my original question:
just tell us who the God of abraham is actually? Tel us his attributes so we can compare and see what are the difference? Or tell us what is there in the God of Abraham that the God of muslims lacks? I'm ready for a soul search if you just make me understand the differences..

The God of Abraham is merciful towards those who have contrition for their wrong thoughts and doings.

The God of Abraham is long suffering towards rebellious sinners putting up with their attitudes to give those who will come to repentance the time they need to come to wisdom.

Jesus who gave us the Will of God taught us to be long suffering towards evil doers and merciful to those who come to repent of their past attitudes.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[sowhatifit'sdark]

I do not believe that such a young man would necessarily be barred from eternity with God. To me rejection of the atonement of Jesus is what causes one to spend eternity in the lake of fire. In your example the young man never heard the truth about the Messiah Jesus, therefore it cannot be said that your young man rejected the truth, can it.

But for those who have received the Message of Jesus and have rejected it. Well i believe their eternal destination is the Lake of Fire.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I actually said 'barely having' heard of Jesus. How much does one have to have heard of Jesus and his message? And remember that Jesus is honored in Islam so every devout Muslim knows something of him.

[Arsalan]

Well you were making the point that the Qur'an comments on all manner of human faculties and the Bible only two!

So I thought I'd ask :)

lol :p

[Adstar]

I actually said 'barely having' heard of Jesus.

Yes and i actually read what you said an answered your question from the description you gave me. If he is as you say a muslim teenager who dies in the mountain of afganistan then the only possible information he could receive about Jesus is from the quran and the qurans description of Jesus is a distortion. So the young guy would never have received the Gospel message.

And remember that Jesus is honored in Islam so every devout Muslim knows something of him.

What they know is a distortion of the truth and is therefore useless to them for their eternal salvation.


How much does one have to have heard of Jesus and his message?
They must be told that:

God was manifested in the flesh through Jesus. Jesus was without sin He came into being by the power of God not via a human father, that His death atoned for the sins of those who would accept His death as atonement for their sins. That His teachings are the revealed will of God. That He was raised from the dead and ascended into heaven and that He will come again. That only through the atonement of Jesus can any man be saved from the Lake of Fire.

That’s the basics

As one grows in knowledge of Jesus they come to know more and more of His teachings as the teachings become known they must be accepted as the truth. Jesus must be believed if one can say they believe in Jesus.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[onlinerotter1]

im sorry to interrup u conver. but i would really like asking the people wich are serving around here if
1. they have really read the christianity bible?
2. dit they ever read the coran or other religion philosophys?
and if so....
3. Dit they understand, really understand what they write and what they wanna sey?
than we can start a real conversation in a neutral circle

[sowhatifit'sdark]

Yes and i actually read what you said an answered your question from the description you gave me. If he is as you say a muslim teenager who dies in the mountain of afganistan then the only possible information he could receive about Jesus is from the quran and the qurans description of Jesus is a distortion. So the young guy would never have received the Gospel message.

How much info must a teenage Muslim have to heard such that he must leave his parents' religion and convert or he is damned forever?



What they know is a distortion of the truth and is therefore useless to them for their eternal salvation.

And also unnecessary, according to you. In fact a missionary going into remote villages is in fact jeopardizing the souls of moral Muslims, Buddhists and so on.



They must be told that:

God was manifested in the flesh through Jesus. Jesus was without sin He came into being by the power of God not via a human father, that His death atoned for the sins of those who would accept His death as atonement for their sins. That His teachings are the revealed will of God. That He was raised from the dead and ascended into heaven and that He will come again. That only through the atonement of Jesus can any man be saved from the Lake of Fire.

So if they hear that and do not give up the religion of their family and village they will suffer eternal damnation?

[Adstar]

How much info must a teenage Muslim have to heard such that he must leave his parents' religion and convert or he is damned forever?

Once a person believes Jesus then they have already left their parents religion, they have already converted. It's not some incredible detailed ceremony or saga, it can happen in a moment. It happened to me. Did i leave my parents, no not physically, but i no longer shared their beliefs. i left them in spirit i guess.



And also unnecessary, according to you. In fact a missionary going into remote villages is in fact jeopardizing the souls of moral Muslims, Buddhists and so on.

They are heading the call of Jesus to go out into the world and give the message of Jesus to everyone. THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING,

Once people have received the message then the ball is in their court and they can accept or reject it as they deem fit.

Have i played a part in sending people to the eternal Lake of Fire? Yes i believe i have probably hundreds, maybe thousands. I am an incredibly dangerous person to talk to. As with all who carry the Gospel are. Discussions about God should never be entered into lightly or as an avenue for humour as some in here do.



So if they hear that and do not give up the religion of their family and village they will suffer eternal damnation?

They must discard any belief that teaches anything in conflict with the Gospel yes. They can remain with their family and stay in their village, but as a former muslim who has come to believe Jesus in the mountains of afghanistan they would probably be disowned by their family and killed by their villagers in short order. But the price for following the Messiah Jesus is to be executed as He was, but it is also to share in His resurrection. :)



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[sowhatifit'sdark]

As with all who carry the Gospel are. Discussions about God should never be entered into lightly or as an avenue for humour as some in here do.
I have found God to be less stiff and rigid than you seem to think he is. It seems people find a version of God that fits their own personality or matches their self-hatred and self-restrictions in far too many cases.

[Cris]

Adstar,

They are heading the call of Jesus to go out into the world and give the message of Jesus to everyone. That’s not accurate. The best we can say is that they imagine they are heading a call, no such actual call has ever been confirmed as real.

THAT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING,Only to their limited and heavily biased perspective. For everyone else it is unsolicited and coercive propaganda.

Have i played a part in sending people to the eternal Lake of Fire? Yes i believe i have probably hundreds, maybe thousands. I am an incredibly dangerous person to talk to. As with all who carry the Gospel are. This attitude is perhaps the most despicable and commonly displayed by many Christians – total conceited arrogance – that somehow your imaginary constructs give you the right to feel superior over anyone else.

Discussions about God should never be entered into lightly or as an avenue for humour as some in here do. Quite the reverse must be carefully preserved and fostered. As we politely smile at the small child who invents imaginary friends, your case as an adult deserves no less than open hilarity.

[Mr.Spock]

So, I have recently been in debate with several religious conservatives on this topic. They didn't believe me whn they heard that the muslims believe that their god is also the god of the christians and the Jews. What do you know about this?

i met a lot of muslims across the net.

very few were "understanding" towered jews, christians, and basically any other religion.

[sowhatifit'sdark]

Hypocrite, i will give you a prime example of puffed up superior attitude talk from an arrogant swine: read the quote below.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days
Adstar,
you know well that the superior attitude of another is not an excuse of your own. You are so used to your beliefs and the qualities of the God you think are obvious, that you miss how cruel and smug your position is. You approve of a really rather ghastly infantile God who would punish people forever. This behavior in relation to earthly dictators is disgusting. It does not become forgivable when it is in relation to a deity. That you could think a loving God could do this, is as confused and evil as believing Pinochet was right to have students tossed out of helicopters over the ocean because their ideas might be bad.

This bowing down to dictators, spiritual and earthly, is one of the sickest traditions we humans have. We have every right to ask why you would believe in a God who is so cruel and somehow see him as loving and we are right on when we smell the pogrom, the ethnic cleansing, the holocaust, etc. you hide in your spiritual beliefs. You believe in a God who after death dividing is just like the horrors on the earthly plane.

I wish you could be honest and admit the hate that feeds you choice of God.

[Revolvr]

In Islam, both paradise and hell are described in great detail. In Christianity they are not. In fact we are told that they are beyond our understanding. Most of what we think of when visualizing heaven and hell are folk theology. Sitting in clouds with wings eating cream cheese, or the Dante's Inferno version of Hell.

Common misconceptions of heaven and hell are rife with the ideas of Man, not with the Word of God. It would be a sad thing to miss a walk with God because one has a folk theological view of Christianity.

Romans 6:23 is one of the best-known verses of the Bible. Yet many people either overlook what it plainly says or read into it an entirely different meaning. “For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.” Death, not eternal life.

Pope John Paul II declared that hell is ‘not a punishment imposed externally by God’ but is the natural consequence of the unrepentant sinner’s choice to live apart from God”.

In Matthew 10:28: Jesus says “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna]”

Jesus compared hell to Gehenna, a burning trash dump outside of Jerusalem where all was consumed by fire or maggots.

Hell represents death of the soul. The Lake of fire does what? It consumes and destroys. It does not eternally torment. "Eternal damnation" does not mean eternal torture, it means death and destruction.

Likewise in heaven we will not be sitting around playing harps and trumpets. We will be put to work. But I’ll save that for some other time.

[Myles]

No, Allah is not the same God as the God of Christianity. The God of Christianity is God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ) and God the Holy Spirit.

That's quite a trick. Supermarket god.... buy one get two free

[Revolvr]

Yes you're right Myles. The Holy Spirit comes free at no extra charge to those who accept Jesus' suffering and execution for our sins and are baptized. We know this not just because the Bible teaches it, but because we feel it.

Don't worry Myles, its all a mass delusion. Just a myth.

But I'll pray for you anyway.

[nova900]

I have found God to be less stiff and rigid than you seem to think he is. It seems people find a version of God that fits their own personality or matches their self-hatred and self-restrictions in far too many cases.

Yes, there is a reason so many rednecks and intolerant people find the Old Testament God appealing! He was a construct of a similar mindset.

[Myles]

Yes you're right Myles. The Holy Spirit comes free at no extra charge to those who accept Jesus' suffering and execution for our sins and are baptized. We know this not just because the Bible teaches it, but because we feel it.

Don't worry Myles, its all a mass delusion. Just a myth.

But I'll pray for you anyway.

Well, you've got the bit about mass delusion right. Jesus was not executed for our sins. If he existed at all, he was executed because he was attempting to undermine the established order. In other words , he was a shit stirrer.There is no evidence that he intended to start a religion known as Christianity. That's down to Paul.

Jesus was a reformer, just like Martin Luther was. He wanted to reform Judaism, not abolish it.

Do you know about the Nazarenes and the Essenes ?

[Myles]

Adstar,
you know well that the superior attitude of another is not an excuse of your own. You are so used to your beliefs and the qualities of the God you think are obvious, that you miss how cruel and smug your position is. You approve of a really rather ghastly infantile God who would punish people forever. This behavior in relation to earthly dictators is disgusting. It does not become forgivable when it is in relation to a deity. That you could think a loving God could do this, is as confused and evil as believing Pinochet was right to have students tossed out of helicopters over the ocean because their ideas might be bad.

This bowing down to dictators, spiritual and earthly, is one of the sickest traditions we humans have. We have every right to ask why you would believe in a God who is so cruel and somehow see him as loving and we are right on when we smell the pogrom, the ethnic cleansing, the holocaust, etc. you hide in your spiritual beliefs. You believe in a God who after death dividing is just like the horrors on the earthly plane.

I wish you could be honest and admit the hate that feeds you choice of God.


He doesn't see god as hateful because he , Adstar , is on the winning team. It comes across time and again that he relishes the thought of those who do not agree with him being cast into the fiery lake.

[Cris]

adstar,

Hypocrite, i will give you a prime example of puffed up superior attitude talk from an arrogant swine: read the quote below.But Adstar there is a key difference - Christians deliberately inflict their arrogance on others yet none can show the difference between the child who invnets an imaginary friend and your invention of an imaginary friend.

Your sense of unwarranted and unjustified superiority is preventing you from seeing the pure humor in your unsupportable position.

[Myles]

adstar,

Not sure how animals enter this debate.

You really must read your Bible. He is referring to the Gadarene swine. They were minding their own busines and harming no one when Jesus cast out evil spirirts from a human and into the pigs. The demons caused the pigs to drown themselves. That is an example of loving Jesus in action.

[Cris]

Myles,

Phew! I almost thought for a moment he was throwing abuse but didn't think real Christians did that.

[Revolvr]

You really must read your Bible. He is referring to the Gadarene swine. They were minding their own busines and harming no one when Jesus cast out evil spirirts from a human and into the pigs. The demons caused the pigs to drown themselves. That is an example of loving Jesus in action.

Your opinion is exactly that of the townspeople. Jesus didn't even bother to talk to them about what happened. He just left. As the good book says, it is not worth casting pearls before swine.

[Adstar]

Adstar,
you know well that the superior attitude of another is not an excuse of your own. You are so used to your beliefs and the qualities of the God you think are obvious, that you miss how cruel and smug your position is. You approve of a really rather ghastly infantile God who would punish people forever. This behavior in relation to earthly dictators is disgusting. It does not become forgivable when it is in relation to a deity. That you could think a loving God could do this, is as confused and evil as believing Pinochet was right to have students tossed out of helicopters over the ocean because their ideas might be bad.

This bowing down to dictators, spiritual and earthly, is one of the sickest traditions we humans have. We have every right to ask why you would believe in a God who is so cruel and somehow see him as loving and we are right on when we smell the pogrom, the ethnic cleansing, the holocaust, etc. you hide in your spiritual beliefs. You believe in a God who after death dividing is just like the horrors on the earthly plane.

I wish you could be honest and admit the hate that feeds you choice of God.

I hate evil. I hate hypocrisy, I hate smug arrogance. My God hates evil, He hates hypocrisy and pride.

Humans should never be proud, because they are not perfect. Pride attached to an imperfect being is such a sickening and contemptible thing to see.

I am being honest when i say that a perfect God has the right to dictate to His creation His will. Your assessment of the God of Abraham comes from a mindset that see's God as being just another being a peer in existence not as a Being in a totally separate and higher level that created beings in this universe. You compare a perfect God with imperfect rulers of this world.

You cannot use the same set of standards you use to judge Human rulers in relation to God. Once you start to deal with a God all such measuring tools need to be thrown out the window.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Myles]

[QUOTE=Adstar;1740107]I hate evil. I hate hypocrisy, I hate smug arrogance. My God hates evil, He hates hypocrisy and pride.

Humans should never be proud, because they are not perfect. Pride attached to an imperfect being is such a sickening and contemptible thing to see.

I am being honest when i say that a perfect God has the right to dictate to His creation His will. Your assessment of the God of Abraham comes from a mindset that see's God as being just another being a peer in existence not as a Being in a totally separate and higher level that created beings in this universe. You compare a perfect God with imperfect rulers of this world.

You cannot use the same set of standards you use to judge Human rulers in relation to God. Once you start to deal with a God all such measuring tools need to be thrown out the window.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

You cannot use the same set of standards = you must abandon reason. What standards do you use in arriving at your certainty ?

[nova900]

You cannot use the same set of standards you use to judge Human rulers in relation to God. Once you start to deal with a God all such measuring tools need to be thrown out the window.



This has always been a conveniant and juevinile excuse to allow the mind to excuse the atrocities attributed to the God of the bible but it has never washed with me and never will.

[Adstar]

You cannot use the same set of standards = you must abandon reason. ?

Most certainly not.

I reason that God is perfect and I am Not.

Therefore I reason Gods decisions and guidance is Good irrespective of my understanding or lack of understanding as to reasons behind His will for us.

I know i do not have perfect understanding so therefore my reasoning on this is Good, that’s where faith/trust in God must come into play.

The greatest wisdom anyone can come to understand is that one lacks wisdom and must rely on the guidance of Someone who is.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Adstar]

“
Originally Posted by Adstar

You cannot use the same set of standards you use to judge Human rulers in relation to God. Once you start to deal with a God all such measuring tools need to be thrown out the window.

This has always been a conveniant and juevinile excuse to allow the mind to excuse the atrocities attributed to the God of the bible but it has never washed with me and never will.


Then if your statement here is true you will be in the Lake of Fire for eternity.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Myles]

Most certainly not.

I reason that God is perfect and I am Not.

Therefore I reason Gods decisions and guidance is Good irrespective of my understanding or lack of understanding as to reasons behind His will for us.

I know i do not have perfect understanding so therefore my reasoning on this is Good, that’s where faith/trust in God must come into play.

The greatest wisdom anyone can come to understand is that one lacks wisdom and must rely on the guidance of Someone who is.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

One reasons using facts. You are merely speculating or conjecturing. If you know you do not have perfect uderstanding why have faith in god ? You are just filling a gap with an explanation which suits your purpose.

Your last bit sounds Socratic but reveals the fact that you are seeking a father figure. The "Someone" who is exists only in your mind.

[Myles]

Then if your statement here is true you will be in the Lake of Fire for eternity.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

That lake must be getting pretty full up by now. Standing room only !

[sowhatifit'sdark]

He doesn't see god as hateful because he , Adstar , is on the winning team. It comes across time and again that he relishes the thought of those who do not agree with him being cast into the fiery lake.

I see it as either cowardice or the product of secret hates. But the Christian tradition has, sadly, too few who consider introspection or self insight to be important qualities. The form of 'goodness' suffices. They are blissfully pre-Freudian, riding along in images of who they are based on the few thoughts and urges they have the courage to notice in themselves.

It's like confusing my character and actions with what I do one minute a month.

[nova900]

That lake must be getting pretty full up by now. Standing room only !

It would seem so. According to what some people think, the vast majority of the earths' population will end up there.

The point I was making is that the same people who say we can't use our moral standard to judge the biblical Gods' action are the same ones who state we derive our morality from the bible...but...when we use that sense of morality obtained apparently from the bible to judge the things we find morally offensive and downright nasty and evil then we are told our inferior and imperfect standards should be "thrown out the window"..wtf??:confused:

[Myles]

It would seem so. According to what some people think, the vast majority of the earths' population will end up there.

The point I was making is that the same people who say we can't use our moral standard to judge the biblical Gods' action are the same ones who state we derive our morality from the bible...but...when we use that sense of morality obtained apparently from the bible to judge the things we find morally offensive and downright nasty and evil then we are told our inferior and imperfect standards should be "thrown out the window"..wtf??:confused:

An oft-repeated theme is that it is not for us to question god's will. which means we must not question the idiot on the doorstep determined to save us.

[WildBlueYonder]

It doesn't really matter what Christians believe as far as Muslims or any other religions are concerned.

The Muslims believe that their God is the God of Abraham.

The Christians believe that their god is the God of Abraham.

Therefore both religions worship the same God.
sounds logical, but if you were really a Jew, Christian or Muslim, you would not support that.

as a Christian, let me tell you why;
Jesus quotes from the Old Testament, regards it as eternal,
Christians quote the Old Testament, regard it as eternal,
muslims quote targums, regard the quran as eternal, but if islam was really the continuation or correction to the Bible, why are the Bible fragments from the Dead Sea Scrolls from 2k years ago, the same as used today in the Bible, but not the same as in the quran?

islam worships an arab god, thats why it wasn't supposed to be translated in to vernacular languages, because people would see that allah is an arabic god, tongue-tied in other human languages, a tribal god, that places arabs & arab speakers on a higher pedestal than common muslims, (check out what medrassas do, they teach recitation of the quran in arabic, but don't teach arabic, why not?)

because its the same idea behind the Catholic Latin Bible, if only priests could read the Bible, they were the top of the food chain, until Wycliffe & Tyndale in English, then Gutenberg did them in with the printing press & Luther with knocking Rome down with the whole tradition of men thing, via the 5 solas
check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_solas

Mohammad used targums to weave together Jewish beliefs along with heretical unchristian beliefs into the quran, thats why Mohammad had to drive out the Jewish tribes from Medina, then kill the rest, because they caught him on all his Biblical errors, mistakes that are enshrined in the quran,

the quran is not Biblical, because targums were meant to be rabbinical teachings, analogies to explain the Bible or its concepts, something that Mohammad didn't know, because quite frankly, he didn't know the God of Abraham

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targum

[WildBlueYonder]

Who do they believe Allah is?allah seems to be the same spirit that got Joseph Smith to believe he was a prophet, thus starting a new religion, masquerading as the "old" original, I think allah is a demon or satan

Jesus warned against false prophets, Paul warned against false prophets
since it seems that Mohammad didn't know the God of Abraham, he was a false prophet

I think Rushdie's book title says it all, thats why muslims wanted him killed, because he revived the story that Mohammad could be tricked by satan into putting verses into the quran, thus we get the "Satanic Verses", now erased in the sanitized & edited version of the quran we have now, out of chronological order, starts from longest sura to shortest, obvious editing, especially if you believe that the "Mother of the Book" (allah's eternal version) is in heaven with allah

also notice that the quran has had a few revisions, see Yemeni fragments, now hidden from scholars

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/199901/koran

[Myles]

allah seems to be the same spirit that got Joseph Smith to believe he was a prophet, thus starting a new religion, masquerading as the "old" original, I think allah is a demon or satan

Jesus warned against false prophets, Paul warned against false prophets
since it seems that Mohammad didn't know the God of Abraham, he was a false prophet

I think Rushdie's book title says it all, thats why muslims wanted him killed, because he revived the story that Mohammad could be tricked by satan into putting verses into the quran, thus we get the "Satanic Verses", now erased in the sanitized & edited version of the quran we have now, out of chronological order, starts from longest sura to shortest, obvious editing, especially if you believe that the "Mother of the Book" (allah's eternal version) is in heaven with allah

also notice that the quran has had a few revisions, see Yemeni fragments, now hidden from scholars

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/199901/koran

Now you've told us that the Quran is wrong, don't forget that millions of Muslims believe you are wrong.I believe you are both wrong because what you believe cannot be supported by empirical evidence. Religion is nothing more than superstition that is gradually approaching its sell-by date and from my point of view , the sooner the better.

[nova900]

Jesus warned against false prophets, Paul warned against false prophets
since it seems that Mohammad didn't know the God of Abraham, he was a false prophet



Since most if not all Muslims believe that Jesus was not literally the son of God or came to provide atonement for our sins ,perhaps they regard Paul as a false prophet?

There is no doubt about it...all three abrahamic religions have their roots in the mythology of Yahweh. If Gabriel was the angel that Muhammed claims to have encountered then there is no way around this. Gabriel was associated with Yahweh...not Apollo,Zeus,Artemis,etc.

[Myles]

[QUOTE=WildBlueYonder;1742859]allah seems to be the same spirit that got Joseph Smith to believe he was a prophet, thus starting a new religion, masquerading as the "old" original, I think allah is a demon or satan

Jesus warned against false prophets, Paul warned against false prophetssince it seems that Mohammad didn't know the God of Abraham, he was a false prophet


I think Rushdie's book title says it all, thats why muslims wanted him killed, because he revived the story that Mohammad could be tricked by satan into putting verses into the quran, thus we get the "Satanic Verses", now erased in the sanitized & edited version of the quran we have now, out of chronological order, starts from longest sura to shortest, obvious editing, especially if you believe that the "Mother of the Book" (allah's eternal version) is in heaven with allah

also notice that the quran has had a few revisions, see Yemeni fragments, now hidden from scholars

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/199901/koran

That carries as much weight as the promise of a used-car salesman.

All that is being said is believe me and ignore others who have contrary views; no need to ask for evidence, just believe what I say.

[SetiAlpha6]

sounds logical, but if you were really a Jew, Christian or Muslim, you would not support that.

as a Christian, let me tell you why;
Jesus quotes from the Old Testament, regards it as eternal,
Christians quote the Old Testament, regard it as eternal,
muslims quote targums, regard the quran as eternal, but if islam was really the continuation or correction to the Bible, why are the Bible fragments from the Dead Sea Scrolls from 2k years ago, the same as used today in the Bible, but not the same as in the quran?

islam worships an arab god, thats why it wasn't supposed to be translated in to vernacular languages, because people would see that allah is an arabic god, tongue-tied in other human languages, a tribal god, that places arabs & arab speakers on a higher pedestal than common muslims, (check out what medrassas do, they teach recitation of the quran in arabic, but don't teach arabic, why not?)

because its the same idea behind the Catholic Latin Bible, if only priests could read the Bible, they were the top of the food chain, until Wycliffe & Tyndale in English, then Gutenberg did them in with the printing press & Luther with knocking Rome down with the whole tradition of men thing, via the 5 solas
check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_solas

Mohammad used targums to weave together Jewish beliefs along with heretical unchristian beliefs into the quran, thats why Mohammad had to drive out the Jewish tribes from Medina, then kill the rest, because they caught him on all his Biblical errors, mistakes that are enshrined in the quran,

the quran is not Biblical, because targums were meant to be rabbinical teachings, analogies to explain the Bible or its concepts, something that Mohammad didn't know, because quite frankly, he didn't know the God of Abraham

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Targum


Unfortunately the Bible has many contradictions and moral problems just like the Quran does.

Most Christians seem to regard the "eternal" Old Testament as obsolete and try to distance themselves from it as much as possible.

If they were required to follow it today they would have to literally kill anyone who trys to teach them a different faith, even their own family, children, and friends, because that is exactly what portions of the Old Testament "eternally" command them to do.

This fruit of the Old Testament teachings can clearly be seen in the character and person of Paul who was a mass murderer.

[Adstar]

One reasons using facts. You are merely speculating or conjecturing. If you know you do not have perfect uderstanding why have faith in god ? You are just filling a gap with an explanation which suits your purpose.

Your last bit sounds Socratic but reveals the fact that you are seeking a father figure. The "Someone" who is exists only in your mind.

I have indeed found my Father. :D

The only one worthy of the title.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Adstar]

That lake must be getting pretty full up by now. Standing room only !

No one is going to the lake untill the day of Judgement. And i am sure it will be big enough for all those who will be going there.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[sowhatifit'sdark]

allah seems to be the same spirit that got Joseph Smith to believe he was a prophet, thus starting a new religion, masquerading as the "old" original, I think allah is a demon or satan

Jesus warned against false prophets, Paul warned against false prophets
since it seems that Mohammad didn't know the God of Abraham, he was a false prophet

I think Rushdie's book title says it all, thats why muslims wanted him killed, because he revived the story that Mohammad could be tricked by satan into putting verses into the quran, thus we get the "Satanic Verses", now erased in the sanitized & edited version of the quran we have now, out of chronological order, starts from longest sura to shortest, obvious editing, especially if you believe that the "Mother of the Book" (allah's eternal version) is in heaven with allah

also notice that the quran has had a few revisions, see Yemeni fragments, now hidden from scholars

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/199901/koran

Perhaps you are one of the false prophets who wishes to increase the divide between the monotheists. Perhaps the false prophets were the very politically minded people who decided which texts would be made a part of the Bible and which would not and built up the Catholic Church. Perhaps Luther and Calvin were false prophets who took people from the one true church or even further from Jesus.

You as an individual, with great faith IN YOUR OWN INTUITION have decided that you believe this text to be holy and not that one. This churct to be right and that to be wrong. The history of Christianity is replete with many humans making decisions that could be fallible so pointing fingers at texts changes in Islam only looks silly and an excuse to feel smug.

You think you know what is God's word and what is not. Take responsibility for that decision and then ask yourself if you are sure you are not one of the false prophets, albeit a minor one.

[Myles]

It's simple. muslims believe that their god allah is the same as the God of Abraham. Christians do not believe the god of the muslims is the God of Abraham.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I say they are both right, or should that be wrong ? Poor old god must get horribly confused.

[Mind Sifter]

muslims quote targums, regard the quran as eternal, but if islam was really the continuation or correction to the Bible, why are the Bible fragments from the Dead Sea Scrolls from 2k years ago, the same as used today in the Bible, but not the same as in the quran?

which part of targum / bible quoted in qur'an? enlighten us.

(check out what medrassas do, they teach recitation of the quran in arabic, but don't teach arabic, why not?)

which madrasah? liar.

quote from wikipedia:
"A typical Islamic school usually offers two courses of study: a hifz course; that is memorisation of the Qur'an (the person who commits the entire Qur'an to memory is called a hafiz); and an 'alim course leading the candidate to become an accepted scholar in the community. A regular curriculum includes courses in Arabic, Tafsir (Qur'anic interpretation), shari'ah (Islamic law), Hadith (recorded sayings and deeds of Prophet Muhammad), Mantiq (logic), and Muslim History. Depending on the educational demands, some madrasahs also offer additional advanced courses in Arabic literature, English and other foreign languages, as well as science and world history."

allah seems to be the same spirit that got Joseph Smith to believe he was a prophet, thus starting a new religion, masquerading as the "old" original, I think allah is a demon or satan.
you've demonstrated your logic earlier regarding how muhammad got the name isa from the greek iesous. by now you must have an idea how we value your thoughts.

I think Rushdie's book title says it all, thats why muslims wanted him killed, because he revived the story that Mohammad could be tricked by satan into putting verses into the quran, thus we get the "Satanic Verses", now erased in the sanitized & edited version of the quran we have now, out of chronological order, starts from longest sura to shortest, obvious editing, especially if you believe that the "Mother of the Book" (allah's eternal version) is in heaven with allah

also notice that the quran has had a few revisions, see Yemeni fragments, now hidden from scholars

this further show us your lack of knowledge in literature even in a contemporary novel. aah, you were referring to the title of the novel. do you actually read it? you have no idea whatsoever about the so called 'satanic verses', do you? when was it erased from the qur'an? pray tell us.
do think as much as you like, just don't humiliate yourself by revealing your thoughts to others.

from the link you gave "Von Bothmer, however, in 1997 finished taking more than 35,000 microfilm pictures of the fragments, and has recently brought the pictures back to Germany. This means that soon Von Bothmer, Puin, and other scholars will finally have a chance to scrutinize the texts and to publish their findings freely"

that was 11 years ago and none of them able to came up with something regarding the 'original' vs. the 'sanitized/edited' version?

anyone knows any links?

[John99]

anyone knows any links?

http://sciforums.com/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=76562

[Mind Sifter]

i was asking about further info regarding Von Bothmer & Puin's finding.

[Adstar]

I say they are both right, or should that be wrong ? Poor old god must get horribly confused.

:D Don't be sad for God. He knows who His childeren are.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[chuuush]

:D Don't be sad for God. He knows who His childeren are.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

We muslims are not children of God, we are His servants only.

[Adstar]

We muslims are not children of God, we are His servants only.

You are neither His childeren or His servants.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Myles]

:D Don't be sad for God. He knows who His childeren are.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Well, even you must admit that he has a dysfunctional family

[chuuush]

You are neither His childeren or His servants.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Thanks for the comment...

[sowhatifit'sdark]

Most certainly not.

I reason that God is perfect and I am Not.

Therefore I reason Gods decisions and guidance is Good irrespective of my understanding or lack of understanding as to reasons behind His will for us.

I know i do not have perfect understanding so therefore my reasoning on this is Good, that’s where faith/trust in God must come into play.

The greatest wisdom anyone can come to understand is that one lacks wisdom and must rely on the guidance of Someone who is.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

But your reasoning has decided something rather enormous. You not only have figured out that the Bible is correct and complete and no human errors have messed up this Bible, but that your interpretations of this text are correct - since you have made it clear that most Christians out there are not Christians. You have amazing abilities to sift through all the world's texts and decide that this one is the correct one and is error free. You have tremendous faith in your interpretations - for example knowing that all the world's millions of Muslims are actually not believers in the real God and all those who have heard the message of Jesus and do not join your religion will go to Hell and deserve to go there.

You know that this is what the true God wants.

You have amazing faith in your own skills. You know that you have not been fooled or manipulated or partly confused by texts written by fallible men.

You are as prideful as any humanist. Perhaps more so.

Such abilities you have.

And yet you pretend to be humble.

While indirectly asserting your own amazing intuition in every post and implying that you will go to heaven and most people here should go to hell unless they change their ways - hence a higher moral ground.

[Adstar]

Well, even you must admit that he has a dysfunctional family

You perceive He has a dysfunctional family because you believe all the dysfunctional people who claim to be a part of His family, are a part of His family.

In fact scientific type investigation seems to be thrown out the door by most athiests on this question because many athiests want to believe that His family is dysfunctional and are only too willing to believe the claims of the dysfunctional because it serves their own need.

A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.
hummmm hummmm.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Adstar]

But your reasoning has decided something rather enormous. You not only have figured out that the Bible is correct and complete and no human errors have messed up this Bible, but that your interpretations of this text are correct - since you have made it clear that most Christians out there are not Christians. You have amazing abilities to sift through all the world's texts and decide that this one is the correct one and is error free. You have tremendous faith in your interpretations - for example knowing that all the world's millions of Muslims are actually not believers in the real God and all those who have heard the message of Jesus and do not join your religion will go to Hell and deserve to go there.

You know that this is what the true God wants.

You have amazing faith in your own skills. You know that you have not been fooled or manipulated or partly confused by texts written by fallible men.

You are as prideful as any humanist. Perhaps more so.

Such abilities you have.

No my abilities are very low. Anything that i have ever said that is worthy of being said in regard to God has come by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Not from my own intellectual abilities. Therefore your attempt to construct a statue of me as pompous and proud falls flat on it's face.



And yet you pretend to be humble.

I am confident, being humble is not my strength. I am humble towards God, i neither bow towards humans or lord it over them. But because i am confident in the message i have to give, others (like yourself) need to construct mental images of me as being prideful and arrogant to help you in your desire to reject the message i have to give. You can paint a distorted image to sater your own needs if you like but your attempt makes no impact on me. :)



While indirectly asserting your own amazing intuition in every post and implying that you will go to heaven and most people here should go to hell unless they change their ways - hence a higher moral ground.

Blab blab blab. Same old, same old attack the messenger when you have nothing left to attack the message with.

Yes all people deserve to go to the lake of fire, me included. At this moment in time i will have eternity with the God of Abraham, Yep I know i am saved. As long as i persevere in the Faith in the atonement of the Messiah Jesus my eternity is secure. I have what i have because i am forgiven, they have nothing because they are not forgiven, and you have nothing because you have not been forgiven. I believe this because i believe Jesus.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[SetiAlpha6]

No my abilities are very low. Anything that i have ever said that is worthy of being said in regard to God has come by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Not from my own intellectual abilities. Therefore your attempt to construct a statue of me as pompous and proud falls flat on it's face.


Adstar, His description of you was very accurate but you have been blinded from seeing it. His description is exactly how other people perceive you.

I am confident, being humble is not my strength. I am humble towards God, i neither bow towards humans or lord it over them. But because i am confident in the message i have to give, others (like yourself) need to construct mental images of me as being prideful and arrogant to help you in your desire to reject the message i have to give. You can paint a distorted image to sater your own needs if you like but your attempt makes no impact on me. :)


Sowhatifit'sdark's comments were full of wisdom, insight, and truth but you disregarded them anyway. Again, you have been blinded to them.

Blab blab blab. Same old, same old attack the messenger when you have nothing left to attack the message with.


The "Message" attacks itself over and over again in contradiction. No one else need add anything to the text. It self-destructs all by itself.

You do indeed only seem to love your own opinions.

I was like you once. It is almost like being under the influence of a hypnotist who puts you back under his spell every single week for a small fee, a mere 10% of your wages. It is a mental drug and it really can enable a person to ignore the pain of real life so they never really have to face the hard things, but at what a terrible cost?

Perhaps, only a truly genuine desire for truth can ever hope to bring a person out of it. You would say the very same thing about Islam, Catholicism, Calvinism and every other belief system on the face of this earth that is different from your own opinion.

And so, you will likewise disregard all of this.

[Adstar]

Adstar, His description of you was very accurate but you have been blinded from seeing it. His description is exactly how other people perceive you.




Sowhatifit'sdark's comments were full of wisdom, insight, and truth but you disregarded them anyway. Again, you have been blinded to them.




The "Message" attacks itself over and over again in contradiction. No one else need add anything to the text. It self-destructs all by itself.

You do indeed only seem to love your own opinions.

I was like you once. It is almost like being under the influence of a hypnotist who puts you back under his spell every single week for a small fee, a mere 10% of your wages. It is a mental drug and it really can enable a person to ignore the pain of real life so they never really have to face the hard things, but at what a terrible cost?

Perhaps, only a truly genuine desire for truth can ever hope to bring a person out of it. You would say the very same thing about Islam, Catholicism, Calvinism and every other belief system on the face of this earth that is different from your own opinion.

And so, you will likewise disregard all of this.

No and Yes.

I have read all the above and considered it all and then i chose to disregard it as the twisted ravings of another blinded anti-christ and then i chose to right this to tell you so.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[SetiAlpha6]

No and Yes.

I have read all the above and considered it all and then i chose to disregard it as the twisted ravings of another blinded anti-christ and then i chose to right this to tell you so.


Adstar,

It is fine and your right to disagree with others and me. I am all for that. But why must you stoop to insults, religious profiling, and character assassinations when a person disagrees with your view and attempts to even demonstrate why they do? Your religion appears to have stolen even common courtesy from you.

Here is how you typically respond to a different opinion than yours...
"twisted ravings of another blinded anti-christ"

Do you really think that this will "win" more people to Christ? If not then what kind of "witness" is this to the world? To me, it just says that there is no difference between you and the “world” at all. It is as though your faith is making you into even a worse person not a better one. What kind of a person were you before you “got saved”. Better or Worse? More caring for others or less so?

I am guessing that you used to be better than this. Most people are, right out of the box.

[Adstar]

Adstar,

It is fine and your right to disagree with others and me. I am all for that. But why must you stoop to insults, religious profiling, and character assassinations when a person disagrees with your view and attempts to even demonstrate why they do? Your religion appears to have stolen even common courtesy from you.

I am giving a message from God. A message that i believe. If i am giving the message of God and another rejects it then they mark themselves out as either misguided needing patience and longsuffering to bring them to understanding or they clearly demonstrate by their wilful rejection of the Love of God that they are evil. In the end anyone who has received the message of God and has declared it evil has marked themselves out as evil. You have demonstrated that you are not just a misguided one, You have been on this forum for a long time now and have continued with dedication your work for satan( it does not matter if you know who you are working for or not). I show patience and compassion for the lost, but i will never have courtesy for an anti-christ.



Here is how you typically respond to a different opinion than yours...
"twisted ravings of another blinded anti-christ"

No, I reserve that for ones who have demonstrated wilful rebellion against the will of God over a long time period. People like you.




Do you really think that this will "win" more people to Christ?

I do not expect people i reserve the description of "anti-christ" for to ever come to Christ. I believe they have resisted the Holy Spirit and will never come to salvation. So i do not ever expect you to accept Jesus. I engage in discussion with people like you for the sake of those who are reading on and who many be meek and therefore open to the conviction of the Holy Spirit.



If not then what kind of "witness" is this to the world?

The Truth. Irrespective of the worlds reaction to it.



To me, it just says that there is no difference between you and the “world” at all.

To you, yeah, to your twisted logic it may seem that way but your perception is darkened so what value is your perception?



It is as though your faith is making you into even a worse person not a better one.

To those who hate the truth the more they communicate with those who love what they hate the lower their opinion of them will become. I have no doubt your dislike of me will grow the more you read what i say and decide to remain in communication with me. Jesus told me the more one loves His Word the more the worldly will hate them, And i see it is true.



What kind of a person were you before you “got saved”. Better or Worse? More caring for others or less so?

I was a teenager with an attitude problem and I was a bit self centred like most are. That does not mean that i did not feel compassion on the suffering or i never shed a tear for the starving children i saw on the TV news from Ethiopia. But in general i was mostly obsessed with self. After i came to Jesus i came to understand my condition and i hated it. The Holy Spirit does a lot of convicting even after one accepts the Messiah Jesus, even today i get a spiritual kick in the pants from time to time, i realise the Lord disciplines whom He loves. I am caring more often now then i was before i accepted Jesus.



I am guessing that you used to be better than this. Most people are, right out of the box.

Once again i believe your guesses come from a warped perception. You can take that as an insult or just take it as a view of another person, your reaction is your business, my business in here is to give what i believe i am lead to give.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[SetiAlpha6]

I am giving a message from God. A message that i believe. If i am giving the message of God and another rejects it then they mark themselves out as either misguided needing patience and longsuffering to bring them to understanding or they clearly demonstrate by their wilful rejection of the Love of God that they are evil. In the end anyone who has received the message of God and has declared it evil has marked themselves out as evil. You have demonstrated that you are not just a misguided one, You have been on this forum for a long time now and have continued with dedication your work for satan( it does not matter if you know who you are working for or not). I show patience and compassion for the lost, but i will never have courtesy for an anti-christ.


You are only teaching people your own personal message of hate. And then you are condemming anyone who dares to disagree with it to hell. Hitler had a very similar kind of mindset.

You have no right to judge me or anyone else. According to Jesus you will be condemned yourself for condemning me because you have taken the authority of God into your own hands. I have tried to warn you of this many times but you remain completely blind to it.

No, I reserve that for ones who have demonstrated wilful rebellion against the will of God over a long time period. People like you.


Yes, I dare to question the writings of men. Especially men who claim that their very words are equivalent to the words of God, like the Quran, the Bible, and yes even you Adstar. Insofar as you choose to think that your thoughts are equivalent to the thoughts of God when you freely condemn others to hell.

I do not expect people i reserve the description of "anti-christ" for to ever come to Christ. I believe they have resisted the Holy Spirit and will never come to salvation. So i do not ever expect you to accept Jesus. I engage in discussion with people like you for the sake of those who are reading on and who many be meek and therefore open to the conviction of the Holy Spirit.


Why would the opinion of a truely meek person ever be swayed by your verbal abuses of others? I am really missing the connection here.

To you, yeah, to your twisted logic it may seem that way but your perception is darkened so what value is your perception?


Why is it that my perception is darkened when you are the one who is verbally abusing me? I am missing that connection as well.

To those who hate the truth the more they communicate with those who love what they hate the lower their opinion of them will become. I have no doubt your dislike of me will grow the more you read what i say and decide to remain in communication with me. Jesus told me the more one loves His Word the more the worldly will hate them, And i see it is true.


I do not hate the truth. The exact inverse is true.

You are completely correct, according to the Bible, I am supposed to hate you. But very simply, I do not. I guess I do not make a very good “antichrist”. Why in the world should I hate you anyway? I missed that one. I mean you may not be the nicest person I ever met but I have no reason to hate you or wish you any ill. Instead I wish good things for you not bad. What is wrong with me anyway? I must be really messed up!

According to you I am supposed to hate you. O.K. then Adstar, could you please give me one single reason why I should hate you, because I most certainly do not.

Just one?

In fact it seems more like the exact inverse is going on here. From the way you treat me it appears that you really do hate me. I have no reason at all to hate you while you seem to have every reason in that fantasy world you live in to hate me.

Please explain this.

I was a teenager with an attitude problem and I was a bit self centred like most are. That does not mean that i did not feel compassion on the suffering or i never shed a tear for the starving children i saw on the TV news from Ethiopia. But in general i was mostly obsessed with self. After i came to Jesus i came to understand my condition and i hated it. The Holy Spirit does a lot of convicting even after one accepts the Messiah Jesus, even today i get a spiritual kick in the pants from time to time, i realise the Lord disciplines whom He loves. I am caring more often now then i was before i accepted Jesus.


I am glad that you have improved from where you were. That is great!!! I just think you can improve even further than you are right now.

So can I!

Once again i believe your guesses come from a warped perception. You can take that as an insult or just take it as a view of another person, your reaction is your business, my business in here is to give what i believe i am lead to give.


I understand!

I used to demonize anyone who thought something different than I did. Just like you are doing now. I don't do that anymore. What kind of monster have I become?

Thanks!

[codanblad]

to adstar

you're a religious fanatic. you're justifying accusing people of being evil, working for satan etc. by saying the holy spirit touched you. did he come and say 'hey its the holy spirit! sup my bitches!' isn't it possible you experienced something which the bible describes as the holy