View Full Version : Virgins anyone???
The Islamic Paradise or Jannat which was invented by Mohammed to bribe the Arabs into committing hedious crimes by promising them materialistic things which they couldn't obtain in the harsh desert. The paradise contains six important items: beautiful virgins, young boys, water, wine, fruits and wealth.
Mohammed knew that sex would sell very well among the group of his lecherous followers who were motivated to fight battles by the promise of sex slaves and booty. By constantly emphasizing to his followers that they would get untouched virgins in Paradise, Mohammed is clearly expressing his "high" opinion of the institution of marriage and his fairness to women. Once the followers go to heaven, they can conveniently ditch their wives for the fresher and more pleasurable sexual encounters with 'Houris' (beautiful virgins). Not only that, the poor wives who gave up their virginity for the pleasure of their husbands do not get even one Male Sex Bomb. But wait, Allah is all merciful! He gives the wives the rare honour of watching their husbands deflower those 72 Houris (virgins) and 28 young pre-pubescent boys.
Koran 78:31
As for the righteous, they shall surely triumph. Theirs shall be gardens and vineyards, and high- bosomed virgins for companions: a truly overflowing cup.
Koran 37:40-48
...They will sit with bashful, dark-eyed virgins, as chaste as the sheltered eggs of ostriches.
Koran 44:51-55
...Yes and We shall wed them to dark-eyed houris. (beautiful virgins)
Koran 52:17-20
...They shall recline on couches ranged in rows. To dark-eyed houris (virgins) we shall wed them...
Koran 55:56-57
In them will be bashful virgins neither man nor Jinn will have touched before.Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny ?"
Koran 55:57-58
Virgins as fair as corals and rubies. Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny ?"
Koran 56:7-40
...We created the houris (the beautiful women) and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand.. "
Koran 55:70-77
"In each there shall be virgins chaste and fair... Dark eyed virgins sheltered in their tents whom neither man nor Jin will have touched before..
Oh wait it gets better....
In the Hadiths, Mohammed goes one step further and expands the promise of virgins to include a free sex market where there is no limit of the number of sexual partners. Women and young boys are on display as if in a fruit market where you can choose the desired ripeness.
Quote from Hadiths
Al Hadis, Vol. 4, p. 172, No. 34
Ali reported that the Apostle of Allah said, "There is in Paradise a market wherein there will be no buying or selling, but will consist of men and women. When a man desires a beauty, he will have intercourse with them."
Homosexuality was and is widely practised in Islamic conutries. To please the homosexuals among his followers he promised them pre-pubescent boys in Paradise. So after committing plunder, loot, rape and murder in this life, the followers of Islam get "rewarded" by untouched virginal youths who are fresh like pearls.
The relevant verses from the Koran are:
Koran 52:24
Round about them will serve, to them, boys (handsome) as pearls well-guarded.
Koran 56:17
Round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness.
Koran 76:19
And round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness: if thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered pearls.
Alot of famous poets in Arabia glorified homosexuality.
Mohammed's promise of an Islamic Paradise that glittered with the fulfillment of all sorts of wordly desires and sense enjoyment was nothing but a sinister ploy to recruit those who had no hope or expectation of ever getting these things in their present lives. Knowing that they are assured of such a Paradise simply because they follow Islam, Muslims can go around committing murder, rape plunder and loot. It is the picture of this paradise that has motivated Muslims over the centuries to cut down people of other religions, to desecrate their places of worship and mistreat them in the name of Allah. Even after death, the spritually deprived Prophet of Islam could not see beyond wine, women and food, leave alone exploring spiritual heights of the soul.
The word is huri and does not mean virgins. The word 72 virgins does not occur anywhere in the Quran, it is based on the writings of a Muslim scholar, Tirmidhi, who lived from 824-892; for perspective Mohammed died in 632.
According to classical Arabic usage in the time when the Qur'an was recited by Muhammad, Hur'in is made of two words Hur and In. The word 'Hur' is the plural of both Ahwar (Masculine) and Hawra (Feminine) which literally translates into persons distinguished by Hawar, signifying "intense whiteness of the eyeballs and lustrous black of the pupils." (ref: Qamus ), hence 'the purity' (ref: Tafsir al'Tabari, and Tafsir al-Razi in 3:52). And as for the phrase, "In it is the plural of both 'Ayan' (Masculine) and 'Ainao' (Feminine)",[25] it was used to refer to the beautiful eyes of the wild-cow whose eyes are blond. In general, this word implies 'most beautiful eye' irrespective of the person's gender. Thus, the most appropriate English endering of the compound word Hur'In will be: "Companions pure, most beautiful of eye."[26] and it is applicable to both male and female
Please do not post false information as fact.
The word is huri and does not mean virgins. The word 72 virgins does not occur anywhere in the Quran, it is based on the writings of a Muslim scholar, Tirmidhi, who lived from 824-892; for perspective Mohammed died in 632.
Please do not post false information as fact. Oh so now you got your own interpretations!
Don't feel bad, I'm sure there is at least one decent man waiting in paradise for you!
Is that your response?
Personal comments?
What is the reference for your interpretations? Including the selective ones of the Qur'an?
Is that your response?
Personal comments?
What is the reference for your interpretations? Including the selective ones of the Qur'an?
That was in response to all moslem woman..not just you!
well you know pretty well how many ways the Quran can be interpreted!...and don't start about the hadiths..they not that credible!
That was in response to all moslem woman..not just you!
well you know pretty well how many ways the Quran can be interpreted!...and don't start about the hadiths..they not that credible!
I'm still waiting for the references you used.
I should really get around to learning Arabic. It would make the verses so much easier to understand.
I'm still waiting for the references you used. They are all in your Quran..but wait! They don't all seem that way. So what 's the point, you just gonna twist em up and say they mean something else!
You like juggling sura's don't you, just so they justify what you want them to mean!...enough discussion I said what I said!
They are all in your Quran..but wait! They don't all seem that way. So what 's the point, you just gonna twist em up and say they mean something else!
You like juggling sura's don't you, just so they justify what you want them to mean!...enough discussion I said what I said!
Still waiting for the source of your translations and interpretations.
Still waiting for the source of your translations and interpretations. ain't gonna happen darling!,..I know where this is going!!!
Revolvr
01-13-08, 11:51 AM
I understand why Muhammad (pbuh) would want to appeal to men, especially men of military age since Islam is a militaristic expansionist religion.
But really SAM you Muslim women get the short end of the stick, both now and in the hereafter. Too bad Muhammad (pbuh) wasn't visionary enough to see the utility in suicide bomber women 1400 years later, perhaps you'd have a better deal.
Since you know more about the "72", just how was that calculated anyway? Is that the number of woman a Muslim man can deflower, even after eternity?
Does all this seem to you what a just and perfect god would come up with?
ain't gonna happen darling!,..I know where this is going!!!
Do you? Where is it going?
Why won't you provide your sources?
I understand why Muhammad (pbuh) would want to appeal to men, especially men of military age since Islam is a militaristic expansionist religion.
But really SAM you Muslim women get the short end of the stick, both now and in the hereafter. Too bad Muhammad (pbuh) wasn't visionary enough to see the utility in suicide bomber women 1400 years later, perhaps you'd have a better deal.
Since you know more about the "72", just how was that calculated anyway? Is that the number of woman a Muslim man can deflower, even after eternity?
Does all this seem to you what a just and perfect god would come up with?
Can you read?
Do you? Where is it going?
Why won't you provide your sources?
I already told you it's in your Quran!,.why don't you go read it and then come back to me!
I already told you it's in your Quran!,.why don't you go read it and then come back to me!
Please post the source for your interpretations.
Please post the source for your interpretations. Already told you:bugeye: Quran!
Already told you:bugeye: Quran!
Who wrote those translations? I am interested in questioning him/her the Arabic roots and how he/she arrived at those meanings.
esp this
Mohammed knew that sex would sell very well among the group of his lecherous followers who were motivated to fight battles by the promise of sex slaves and booty. By constantly emphasizing to his followers that they would get untouched virgins in Paradise, Mohammed is clearly expressing his "high" opinion of the institution of marriage and his fairness to women. Once the followers go to heaven, they can conveniently ditch their wives for the fresher and more pleasurable sexual encounters with 'Houris' (beautiful virgins). Not only that, the poor wives who gave up their virginity for the pleasure of their husbands do not get even one Male Sex Bomb. But wait, Allah is all merciful! He gives the wives the rare honour of watching their husbands deflower those 72 Houris (virgins) and 28 young pre-pubescent boys.
Homosexuality was and is widely practised in Islamic conutries. To please the homosexuals among his followers he promised them pre-pubescent boys in Paradise. So after committing plunder, loot, rape and murder in this life, the followers of Islam get "rewarded" by untouched virginal youths who are fresh like pearls.
[QUOTE=S.A.M.;1710121]Who wrote those translations? I am interested in questioning him/her the Arabic roots and how he/she arrived at those meanings.
Thats my translation of events that I hypothesized to be the most obvious motivation of his followers!, I'm sure many would agree when you fit that it into the reasons for his murderous campaigns.
It's all detective work!,..backtracking history understanding the mindset of people in that sort of geo-political situation it's really quite easy to see why!
Thats my translation of events that I hypothesized to be the most obvious motivation of his followers!, I'm sure many would agree when you fit that it into the reasons for his murderous campaigns.
It's all detective work!,..backtracking history understanding the mindset of people in that sort of geo-political situation it's really quite easy to see why!
Ah so it is your personal translation of supposed sodomite Arabs indulging in orgies. And since you do not even know the meaning of hurin, why should your sexual fantasies be accepted by other people as having any basis?
Ah so it is your personal translation of supposed sodomite Arabs indulging in orgies. And since you do not even know the meaning of hurin, why should your sexual fantasies be accepted by other people as having any basis?
Yes my translation of the series of events based on the verses mentioned in the Quran!
And I do not recall mentioning acceptance of any of my sexual fantasies!. Please stop mis quoting and twisting my posts!
Yes my translation of the series of events based on the verses mentioned in the Quran!
And I do not recall mentioning acceptance of any of my sexual fantasies!. Please stop mis quoting and twisting my posts!
Your insistence on Arab sexual and homosexual orgies and the western attachment of the 72 virgins myth, leads me to conclude that you are an excellent candidate for recommendation of this treatise on fantasies about Arabs.
Desiring Arabs
(http://www.amazon.com/Desiring-Arabs-Joseph-Massad/dp/0226509583)
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ora-oPicL._AA240_.jpg
Columbia professor Massad critiques how Arabs have narrated their sexual desires in scholarship and literature and attempts to explain recent changes in such narratives as a response to, and to some degree an internalization of, pervasive and pejorative Western views of Arab sexual desire. Collecting a number of modern Arab scholars' thoughts on sexuality, Massad initially analyzes how these scholars have described nonnormative or "deviant" sexual behavior in an effort to teach their contemporaries about the often fluid sexual mores of earlier civilizations. He then notes that, starting in the late twentieth century, racist representations of Arab sexual desire and chauvinistic Western notions of human (and gay) rights began to permeate the discourse and transform cultural notions of deviance in the Arab world. Finding that recent Arabic novels reflect a "sexual taxonomy" that ultimately represses nonnormative sexual behavior by anchoring it to binary notions of hetero and homo, Massad urges resistance to narrow Western notions of sexual identity and encourages fresh consideration of the relationship between sexual activity and sexual identity in Arab culture.
Its a very interesting look at western perspectives of Arab sexuality.
Well I've lived in the mid-east ,..I don't need to read a book about it. I've seen it and it disgusts me. Ever tried surviving a trip in a arab taxi?..Of course not your a woman, you won't be able to gain access to these areas of curiousity coz the mid-east is dominantly a man's world where women are mostly wrapped up and chained to an oven in the kitchen!
There is no need for western perspectives on arab sexuality now, it's the same as it was for centuries...
Well I've lived in the mid-east ,..I don't need to read a book about it. I've seen it and it disgusts me. Ever tried surviving a trip in a arab taxi?..Of course not your a woman, you won't be able to gain access to these areas of curiousity coz the mid-east is dominantly a man's world where women are mostly wrapped up and chained to an oven in the kitchen!
There is no need for western perspectives on arab sexuality now, it's the same as it was for centuries...
I've lived in Saudi Arabia for five years. I've lived among and dined with Saudis. So yes, I know what I am talking about. I'm sorry Israel is such a bad place to live in. I've read how the IDF like to sodomise young Arab boys. I shudder to think how they treat their women.
I've lived in Saudi Arabia for five years. I've lived among and dined with Saudis. So yes, I know what I am talking about. I'm sorry Israel is such a bad place to live in. I've read how the IDF like to sodomise young Arab boys. I shudder to think how they treat their women. Where did Israel come from? I only been there once on holiday.:confused:
Where did Israel come from? I only been there once on holiday.:confused:
Ah so you're Saudi/Arab?
La't kallim al logat?
I assumed it from your preoccupation with homosexuality.
Arabs have no such concept.
In fact the word they use for gays "mitnak" actually means " one who enjoys getting f*cked"
Ah so you're Saudi?
La't kallim al logat?
I assumed it from your preoccupation with homosexuality.
Arabs have no such concept.haha..Hell no sweetheart!
I'm a proud Scotsman! I've done nearly 8 years of contracts in the mid east, in Bahrain,Kuwait and Qatar!. So I know pretty much more than you think I know!...
haha..Hell no sweetheart!
I'm a proud Scotsman! I've done nearly 8 years of contracts in the mid east, in Bahrain,Kuwait and Qatar!. So I know pretty much more than you think I know!...
A Scotsman who supports Israel and writes anti-Quran homophobic posts! Now I've seen it all.
You're no Scotsman. No true blood Scotsman supports Israel.
What you are is a liar.:)
Oh no, I don't support any country except my own of course, I like Israel coz they got those cool little skull caps,..my girl likes them too uses it sometimes for emmergency DIY bra's!!!:D
Oh no, I don't support any country except my own of course, I like Israel coz they got those cool little skull caps,..my girl likes them too uses it sometimes for emmergency DIY bra's!!!:D
Ah I see, in that case, I am pleased to make your acquaintance, puttar!
What got you interested in Quranic interpretations and Arab sexuality?
Ah I see, in that case, I am pleased to make your acquaintance, puttar!
excuse me?:confused:
excuse me?:confused:
You're excused.
You're excused.
What the hell did you just call me? Is that some slang in your language or something coz if it's offensive I will be forced to report you!!
Now what was that????:(
What the hell did you just call me? Is that some slang in your language or something coz if it's offensive I will be forced to report you!!
Now what was that????:(
Strange. IIRC, you understood that word the last time I used it, because you had a Punjabi guy on your ship.
oh can i play too.... :D
Putter asi punjabi hai ga!
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1159510&postcount=47
Have I told you about my excellent memory?
Strange. IIRC, you understood that word the last time I used it, because you had a Punjabi guy on your ship.
yes I do have a few friends from India, but I don't recall introducing any of them to you!. What is the meaning of that word??
cosmictraveler
01-13-08, 01:28 PM
Have I told you about my excellent memory?
The "selective" one?
see edit ;) I must warn you that any usuage of any unauthorized foreign language made towards me except french would be considered offensive or rude!!
I must warn you that any usuage of any unauthorized foreign language made towards me except french would be considered offensive or rude!!
In that case you will be happy to know that I used one which I recalled you using earlier. :p
What does it mean?:confused:
In that case you will be happy to know that I used one which I recalled you using earlier. :p
What does it mean?:confused: I don't have clue what you are on about! But i'm gonna let this one slide just this time...You are off the hook for now!!!
So does it really piss you off that your moslem brothers get more pie in paradise than you?:D
I don't have clue what you are on about! But i'm gonna let this one slide just this time...You are off the hook for now!!!
So does it really piss you off that your moslem brothers get more pie in paradise than you?
Tusi akal pa! :D
;):m:
;):m: huh!! I'm sure that must have been my stowaway buddy Vince, he comes from somewhere in India he speaks many languages. He probably was fooling around on my comp when I crashed out!!...the fool must have thought he was on a dating site!!hahaha:eek:
huh!! I'm sure that must have been my stowaway buddy Vince, he comes from somewhere in India he speaks many languages. He probably was fooling around on my comp when I crashed out!!...the fool must have thought he was on a dating site!!hahaha:eek:
This guy?
I am none of the fucking above,...I just know many languages and their dialects!
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1159530&postcount=54
This guy?
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1159530&postcount=54
Yep definitely sounds like vince!
And you thought I was him,..hahahaha!!!
Okay enough! stop derailing my virgin thread!
now about that pie in the sky?
Why don't you ask Tirmidhi?
It was his idea. With your polyglot and multilingual facilities, you should be able to surmise why he wrote it.
Revolvr
01-13-08, 02:59 PM
Can you read?
Yes you're right SAM I AM, I wrote hastily. I acknowledge some scholars view this sex appeal as being for both sexes.
Nevertheless my question still stands. Does it seem godly to you that a god would appeal to the base instincts of Man (vis a vis rampant sex with virgins) as a motivation to be obedient, rather than appealing to the spiritual?
And I am still interested in the rationale for the 72. Even though it is not in the Qur'an it is still widely believed.
-- Rev
Yes you're right SAM I AM, I wrote hastily. I acknowledge some scholars view this sex appeal as being for both sexes.
Nevertheless my question still stands. Does it seem godly to you that a god would appeal to the base instincts of Man (vis a vis rampant sex with virgins) as a motivation to be obedient, rather than appealing to the spiritual?
And I am still interested in the rationale for the 72. Even though it is not in the Qur'an it is still widely believed.
-- Rev
I see the answer is NO
Revolvr
01-13-08, 03:05 PM
I see the answer is NO
So it does NOT seem godly to you Allah's vision of paradise? But you believe it?
So it does NOT seem godly to you Allah's vision of paradise? But you believe it?
The answer is NO to the question "Can you Read"?
Revolvr
01-13-08, 03:15 PM
The answer is NO to the question "Can you Read"?
SAM, that was your question to me! I apologized for my hasty remark.
You can tell me to go to H*** but no need to be obtuse.
SAM, that was your question to me! I apologized for my hasty remark.
You can tell me to go to H*** but no need to be obtuse.
The irony is astounding.
Sorry just go back and read the meaning of the word hurin.
As for the source of the 72 virgins myth, you'll have to ask Tirmidhi.
Or Vega.
Or make up your own, there was an interesting astrological rendition from QuestionEverything.
madanthonywayne
01-13-08, 03:31 PM
The word is huri and does not mean virgins. The word 72 virgins does not occur anywhere in the Quran, it is based on the writings of a Muslim scholar, Tirmidhi, who lived from 824-892; for perspective Mohammed died in 632.
So you're saying that Tirmidhi was in error? Was he an arabic speaker himself? Why would he make such an error?
If your interpretation is correct, then the deal is some undefined number of clear eyed companions? Is that correct?
A Google search of 72 virgins reveals this from The Straight Dope.com.
The difficulty in determining what the Koran has to say about virgins and such is establishing what the Koran says, period. Translators vary widely in their rendering of the spare and often opaque text. For example, we find the following passage in a Web-based version of Islam's holy book (www.unn.ac.uk/societies/islamic/index.htm): "Verily, for the Muttaqun [righteous], there will be a success (paradise); gardens and grapeyards; and young full-breasted (mature) maidens of equal age; and a full cup (of wine)" (An-Naba 78:31-34). Whoa, one thinks--the Kingdom of Heaven meets the Playboy Advisor! However, most other English translations, both on-line and in print, replace "full-breasted maidens" with some tame construction such as "companions." Inquiring further, we find that the Arabic word at issue is WakawaAAiba, which appears nowhere else in the Koran. The French, less prudish in these matters, usually render it as something like des belles aux seins arrondis, "beautiful women with round breasts," so I think it's pretty clear what the Prophet, or at least his stenographers, had in mind.
Nothing in the Koran specifically states that the faithful are allotted 72 virgins apiece. For this elaboration we turn to the hadith, traditional sayings traced with varying degrees of credibility to Muhammad. Hadith number 2,562 in the collection known as the Sunan al-Tirmidhi says, "The least [reward] for the people of Heaven is 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome of pearls, aquamarine and ruby."
A little hype from the marketing department, you may say. Fine. Let's return to the Koran, Islam's font of religious authority. Even if we leave out the racy detail and make allowances for metaphor, we're obliged to admit that Islamic heaven is a pretty rockin' place, with an emphasis on sensual pleasures. The provision of virgins in indeterminate quantities is alluded to at numerous points, and you know they're not just there to fluff the pillows. (In fairness to the Prophet, the physical quality usually attributed to the houris, as they're called, is "wide lovely eyes.") The food, service, ambience., etc, are great. You're allowed to enjoy things the Koran explicitly denies you on earth, such as alcohol, and you won't even get sick. ("Wine . . . delicious to those who drink it . . . will neither dull their senses nor they will become drunk.") Granted, the whole thing is skewed toward the male idea of a good time, a defect by no means confined to Islam. Were Muhammad to found a religion today, I'm confident that each female arrival in heaven would be assigned a comely stud who would provide fabulous sex and in addition hang the curtain rods the first time he was asked. Granted, also, the emphasis on virgins is a little weird. (Think back on the first nights you've been party to. Was this your idea of great sex?) Still, you have to admit, heaven as Party Central sure beats the Christian idea of angels with harps. http://www.straightdope.com/columns/011214.html
So the Hadith promise:
"The least [reward] for the people of Heaven is 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome of pearls, aquamarine and ruby."
While the Koran itself contains only:
Let's return to the Koran, Islam's font of religious authority. Even if we leave out the racy detail and make allowances for metaphor, we're obliged to admit that Islamic heaven is a pretty rockin' place, with an emphasis on sensual pleasures. The provision of virgins in indeterminate quantities is alluded to at numerous points, and you know they're not just there to fluff the pillows. (In fairness to the Prophet, the physical quality usually attributed to the houris, as they're called, is "wide lovely eyes.") The food, service, ambience., etc, are great. You're allowed to enjoy things the Koran explicitly denies you on earth, such as alcohol, and you won't even get sick.
So he included "wide lovely eyes" translation, but still says that the Koran promises The provision of virgins in indeterminate quantities is alluded to at numerous points.
Is this also incorrect? Because it sounds like the only question is how many virgins (or "companions with wide lovely eyes") you'll be provided with.
I'm sorry. Does Tirmidhi claim to be referencing the Quran?
Where does he say that?
And translations of hurin into virgins is a western fancy.
All the Arabic translations I have read follow these translations:
In Islam, the ḥūr or ḥūrīyah (Arabic: حورية) are described as "(splendid)[1] companions of equal age (well-matched)[2]", "lovely eyed"[3], of "modest gaze"[4], "voluptuous",[5] "pure beings" or "companions pure" of paradise, denoting humans and jinns who enter paradise after being recreated anew in the hereafter.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri
But hey, who ever gets the meaning of Islamic terms from Muslims?
As for Hadith, check isnad.
Regarding the above statement, Hafiz Salahuddin Yusuf has said: "The narration, which claims that everyone would have seventy-two wives has a weak chain of narrators.
Also, I'd like to know which verse in the Qur'an has a provision for indeterminate numbers of virgins.
Chapter and verse please.
Carcano
01-13-08, 03:39 PM
The Islamic Paradise or Jannat which was invented by Mohammed to bribe the Arabs into committing hedious crimes by promising them materialistic things which they couldn't obtain in the harsh desert. The paradise contains six important items: beautiful virgins, young boys, water, wine, fruits and wealth.
Why didnt you provide a link to the original site for this essay...you didnt write it.
Anyway, what difference does it make whether the heavenly companions are virgins or not???
Revolvr
01-13-08, 03:42 PM
I'm sorry. Does Tirmidhi claim to be referencing the Quran?
Where does he say that?
And translations of hurin into virgins is a western fancy.
All the Arabic translations I have read follow these translations:
In Islam, the ḥūr or ḥūrīyah (Arabic: حورية) are described as "(splendid)[1] companions of equal age (well-matched)[2]", "lovely eyed"[3], of "modest gaze"[4], "voluptuous",[5] "pure beings" or "companions pure" of paradise, denoting humans and jinns who enter paradise after being recreated anew in the hereafter.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houri
But hey, who ever gets the meaning of Islamic terms from Muslims?
Tirmidhi was a well respected scholar and one of the first to collect the Hadiths. Tirmidhi is not referring to the Qur'an, but to specific things Muhammad (pbuh) said.
If you SAM do not follow the teachings in the Hadiths, then you would be a rare Muslim.
Tirmidhi was a well respected scholar and one of the first to collect the Hadiths. Tirmidhi is not referring to the Qur'an, but to specific things Muhammad (pbuh) said.
If you SAM do not follow the teachings in the Hadiths, then you would be a rare Muslim.
Uh please do not teach me Islam.:rolleyes:
Following the Hadith is not the same as following the Quran.
The Hadith is a collection of oral traditions but was collected 100-400 years after the prophets death. Plus there is a tradition of isnad and rules for the Hadith.
According to the rules of isnad this hadith of 72 virgins has a weak chain of narrators and due to it being supported by only Tirmidhis work is a Gharib (unusual) Hadith, hence is considered weak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gharib
Carcano
01-13-08, 03:59 PM
What Does It Matter Whether They Are Virgins Or Not???
Revolvr
01-13-08, 04:08 PM
Uh please do not teach me Islam.:rolleyes:
Following the Hadith is not the same as following the Quran.
The Hadith is a collection of oral traditions but was collected 100-400 years after the prophets death. Plus there is a tradition of isnad and rules for the Hadith.
According to the rules of isnad this hadith of 72 virgins has a weak chain of narrators and due to it being supported by only Tirmidhis work is a Gharib (unusual) Hadith, hence is considered weak.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gharib
How about Al-Suyuti (died 1505 AD).
He is another respected Quranic commentator. He wrote: "Each time we sleep with a houri we find her virgin. Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal; the sensation that you feel each time you make love is utterly delicious and out of this world and were you to experience it in this world you would faint. Each chosen one [ie Muslim] will marry seventy [sic] houris, besides the women he married on earth, and all will have appetizing vaginas."
Thats pretty hot SAM! A perpetual erection?
If you SAM do not follow the teachings in the Hadiths, then you would be a rare Muslim.
I wouldn't call her a rare Muslim.
"Have they not looked at the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all the things God has created? Does it ever occur to them that the end of their life may be near? Which Hadith besides this (Quran) do they believe in?"
Qur'an 7:185
"We did not leave anything out of this book."
Qur'an 6:38
You have to understand that hadiths are sometimes not very reliable. Ultimately, the choice to make a hadith authentic or not (back then) was simply if the person putting them together wanted to accept it or reject it. Bukhair collected over 300,000 hadiths, but only accepted about 2,600. Same thing with Sahih Muslim: over 300,000 hadiths collected, yet about 4,000 accepted. Don't you see a huge room for error in this? Add in the hundreds of thousands of fake hadiths that were fabricated, and there's a lot of misunderstanding. Hadiths are the works of men. The Qur'an is the message of Allah.
How about Al-Suyuti (died 1505 AD).
He is another respected Quranic commentator. He wrote: "Each time we sleep with a houri we find her virgin. Besides, the penis of the Elected never softens. The erection is eternal; the sensation that you feel each time you make love is utterly delicious and out of this world and were you to experience it in this world you would faint. Each chosen one [ie Muslim] will marry seventy [sic] houris, besides the women he married on earth, and all will have appetizing vaginas."
Thats pretty hot SAM! A perpetual erection?
1505 AD? Why not Vega, 2008
Homosexuality was and is widely practised in Islamic conutries. To please the homosexuals among his followers he promised them pre-pubescent boys in Paradise. So after committing plunder, loot, rape and murder in this life, the followers of Islam get "rewarded" by untouched virginal youths who are fresh like pearls.
Whatever makes your bell jingle
Revolvr
01-13-08, 04:31 PM
"We did not leave anything out of this book."
Qur'an 6:38
I thought V6:38 was talking about the Lawhul Mahfuz, the Protected Tablet, not the Qur'an. Or is there disagreement here too?
I thought V6:38 was talking about the Lawhul Mahfuz, the Protected Tablet, not the Qur'an. Or is there disagreement here too?
Why not read the WHOLE verse and then comment on it?
[38] There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. Nothing have We omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end.
Revolvr
01-13-08, 04:35 PM
Bukhair collected over 300,000 hadiths, but only accepted about 2,600. Same thing with Sahih Muslim: over 300,000 hadiths collected, yet about 4,000 accepted. Don't you see a huge room for error in this?
Yes Yes Yes! I see huge error in this! How is a Muslim to know what to believe? There are various collections of Hadiths of varying degrees of authenticity and disagreements on this authenticity. There are Islamic jurists that say this, and others who say that. How do YOU know what to believe? How CAN you know what to believe?
Revolvr
01-13-08, 04:36 PM
Why not read the WHOLE verse and then comment on it?
[38] There is not an animal (that lives) on the earth, nor a being that flies on its wings, but (forms part of) communities like you. Nothing have We omitted from the Book, and they (all) shall be gathered to their Lord in the end.
Exactly! That's why I assumed it was referring to the Lawhul Mahfuz.
Yes Yes Yes! I see huge error in this! How is a Muslim to know what to believe? There are various collections of Hadiths of varying degrees of authenticity and disagreements on this authenticity. There are Islamic jurists that say this, and others who say that. How do YOU know what to believe? How CAN you know what to believe?
The same way you do everything else. By increasing knowledge
[114] High above all is Allah, the King, the Truth! be not in haste with the Qur-an before its revelation to thee is completed, but say, "O my Lord! advance me in knowledge."
Revolvr
01-13-08, 04:42 PM
Homosexuality was and is widely practised in Islamic conutries. To please the homosexuals among his followers he promised them pre-pubescent boys in Paradise. So after committing plunder, loot, rape and murder in this life, the followers of Islam get "rewarded" by untouched virginal youths who are fresh like pearls.
Whatever makes your bell jingle
The reason one assumes homosexuality was common in Muhammad's (pbuh) time is because Allah provides pre-pubescent virgin boys in Paradise. Who else would find this attractive? But then the Qur'an condemns homosexuality. Presumably a homosexual wouldn't make it to paradise. A quandary is it not?
The reason one assumes homosexuality was common in Muhammad's (pbuh) time is because Allah provides pre-pubescent virgin boys in Paradise. Who else would find this attractive? But then the Qur'an condemns homosexuality. Presumably a homosexual wouldn't make it to paradise. A quandary is it not?
Since neither pre-pubescent boys (virgin or experienced) nor a condemnation of homosexuality can be adequately and critically demonstrated in the Quran, you can paddle away on denial.
3:7 But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is not of well-established meaning. Seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its true meanings except Allah.
Revolvr
01-13-08, 05:08 PM
Since neither pre-pubescent boys (virgin or experienced) nor a condemnation of homosexuality can be adequately and critically demonstrated in the Quran, you can paddle away on denial.
I must be mis-interpreting 4:15-4:18 then. Here is some commentary:
And when two of you (read wa’lladhāni or wa’lladhānni) men, commit it, that is, a lewd act, adultery or homosexual intercourse, punish them both, with insults and beatings with sandals; but if they repent, of this [lewd act], and make amends, through [good] action, then leave them be, and do not harm them. God ever turns [relenting], to those who repent, and is Merciful, to them. This [verse] is abrogated by the prescribed punishment if adultery is meant , and similarly if homosexual intercourse is meant, according to al-Shāfi‘ī; but according to him, the person who is the object of the [penetrative] act is not stoned, even if he be married; rather, he is flogged and banished.
Young boys are in paradise as described in the Qur'an, [B]handsome youths of perpetual freshness. I guess they might just be waiters serving drinks.
052.024 Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them. Youths (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded.
056.017 Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness),
076.019 And round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness): If thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls.
I must be mis-interpreting 4:15-4:18 then. Here is some commentary:
And when two of you (read wa’lladhāni or wa’lladhānni) men, commit it, that is, a lewd act, adultery or homosexual intercourse, punish them both, with insults and beatings with sandals; but if they repent, of this [lewd act], and make amends, through [good] action, then leave them be, and do not harm them. God ever turns [relenting], to those who repent, and is Merciful, to them. This [verse] is abrogated by the prescribed punishment if adultery is meant , and similarly if homosexual intercourse is meant, according to al-Shāfi‘ī; but according to him, the person who is the object of the [penetrative] act is not stoned, even if he be married; rather, he is flogged and banished.
Young boys are in paradise as described in the Qur'an, [B]handsome youths of perpetual freshness. I guess they might just be waiters serving drinks.
052.024 Round about them will serve, (devoted) to them. Youths (handsome) as Pearls well-guarded.
056.017 Round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness),
076.019 And round about them will (serve) youths of perpetual (freshness): If thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered Pearls.
More "translations", whats the word in the Quran for prepubescent boys?
And please, do not confuse between the Quran and Hadith.
Refer to my post above.
Michael
01-13-08, 06:18 PM
I once read it could be translated as 72 white raisins.
But really it doesn't matter. All monotheistic religions promise something good for obeying God, be it hot sex or nice fruit, whatever it's paradise and some sort of punishment for not obeying God. The thing I find funny, is God, being able to do anything - could (in theory) write a book that was so moving that any and all humans who read it would instantly find it compelling to obey God without the need of a carrot and the stick.
Xians read their Bible thinking it's the "literal" word of God and Muslim read the Qur'an thinking it's the "literal" word of God yet no one else does. We don't see Japanese or Chinese studying this awe inspiring words of the Creator of Universe and all that is in it - because when they read these books they simply think that they're funny stories and that's it. These books are not treasure tombs overflowing with great pearls of wisdom to anyone other than than the people who are Xian or Muslim. Scientologists spend their entire lives pouring over all the nuances of the Great Words of Ron L Hubbard - exactly like the Bible or Qur'an these miraculous insights into humanity itself only appear self evident to the devout.
Some people will, just like the Scientologists, waste their lives studying what they think are these great words from the God itself.
Which brings us back to the virgins and hell. Because the books are not filled with any more or any less wisdom then a Ron Hubbard SciFi the theologian must instead appeal to the most base of human's nature - procreation and fear.
madanthonywayne
01-13-08, 06:23 PM
I'm sorry. Does Tirmidhi claim to be referencing the Quran?
Where does he say that?
I just assumed he was responsible for that particular interpretation when you brought him up. So if he is not referencing the Koran, what is his writing based upon?
I just assumed he was responsible for that particular interpretation when you brought him up. So if he is not referencing the Koran, what is his writing based upon?
Since he was born 200 years after Mohammed died, its based on an oral tradition of what Mohammed said. Even then his Sunan recites it as 72 wives, I think, the virgins probably sounded better to other people, who knows?
Anyway, the 72 virgins is a popular story and is good for mocking the desperation of people in occupied lands and reducing their suicides to a joke. "Hahahaha he blew himself up for 72 virgins" sounds much better than "he blew himself up because without food, employment or access to education and healthcare, he could no longer find any way to support his family and just wanted to do something violent and get it over with and take some of those who were responsible for his conditions with him"
Much better to consider them mad rather than sane.
The truth of course is different:
Margaret Nydell states that mainstream Muslims regard this belief about 72 virgins in the same way that mainstream Christians regard the belief that after death they will be issued with wings and a harp, and walk on clouds
Revolvr
01-13-08, 07:06 PM
"Hahahaha he blew himself up for 72 virgins" sounds much better than "he blew himself up because without food, employment or access to education and healthcare, he could no longer find any way to support his family and just wanted to do something violent and get it over with and take some of those who were responsible for his conditions with him"
If this were true, poor disadvantaged people of all faiths all over the world would be blowing themselves up.
But it is NOT true. Muslims of all economic strata blow themselves up as part of Jihad, to die fighting for Allah, which is the ONLY guaranteed way to get to this paradise. A paradise curiously designed to appeal mainly to young men.
If this were true, poor disadvantaged people of all faiths all over the world would be blowing themselves up.
But it is NOT true. Muslims of all economic strata blow themselves up as part of Jihad, to die fighting for Allah, which is the ONLY guaranteed way to get to this paradise. A paradise curiously designed to appeal mainly to young men.
Who said anything about poor or disadvantaged?
Most suicide bombers in fact come from the more educated, more secular families and tend to be better off than the general population.
That is why they tend to look for methods that have worked and are minimal expense with maximum impact.
I believe the LTTE has been a great inspiration in this regard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTTE
Michael
01-13-08, 07:12 PM
Anyway, the 72 virgins is a popular story and is good for mocking the desperation of people in occupied lands and reducing their suicides to a joke. "Hahahaha he blew himself up for 72 virgins" sounds much better than "he blew himself up because without food, employment or access to education and healthcare, he could no longer find any way to support his family and just wanted to do something violent and get it over with and take some of those who were responsible for his conditions with him"
Much better to consider them mad rather than sane.
The truth of course is different:
Margaret Nydell states that mainstream Muslims regard this belief about 72 virgins in the same way that mainstream Christians regard the belief that after death they will be issued with wings and a harp, and walk on cloudsI read an interview in Time with a Iraqi "handler" whose job it was to convince rich Arab Muslims from KSA to blow themselves up. He said a lot of time they were scared - really scared, and so he would remind them of how things were going to get really really good for them really soon. The 72 virgins was one such thing he reminded them of. So he said anyway.
I'd say these kids were not mad or insane - but a life long indoctrination process / religious belief had probably thoroughly and completely brainwashed them.
I read an interview in Time with a Iraqi "handler" whose job it was to convince rich Arab Muslims from KSA to blow themselves up. He said a lot of time they were scared - really scared, and so he would remind them of how things were going to get really really good for them really soon. The 72 virgins was one such thing he reminded them of. So he said anyway.
I'd say these kids were not mad or insane - but a life long indoctrination process / religious belief had probably thoroughly and completely brainwashed them.
I'd say that the Iraqi handler for al Qaeda in Iraq was an Egyptian actor who made up stories.
The brainwashed people are present more in the west; they follow any bullshit if you package it nicely and present it from an authorattative source.
Saudis are highly materialistic people. Idealists like OBL are few and far between.
Michael
01-13-08, 08:00 PM
Could be. But someone has to organize the people who obviously are blowing themselves up.
According to the interview he is an Iraqi. He said that after they, Sunni Iraqies, defeat the Americans then they will have to turn around and defeat Al Qaeda. He is not interested in a theocratic State. But for now they have a common enemy.
Also, this was an interview like a year or so ago.
Sounds like utter nonsense to me, but what do I know?
In my opinion, it is an incredibly clever tactic to get the US to fund them and provide arms.
Nah, couldn't be.
Michael
01-13-08, 08:06 PM
Because most Americans are Xian I think they sympathize with what the leaders were telling them. They like the "idea" that Muslims are evil and Mohammad was either Satan himself or tricked by Satan. Certainly such a scenario would fit nicely within most mainstream Xian belief. Playing off such xenophobic religious fears is common to most governments. The only thing that can kind of keep this in check is democratic institutions. If we make the assumption that the majority of people do not have their heads completely up their theocratic arse. Also, having a bad guy is as old as civilization itself. Mohammad didn't designate non-believers for nothing.
It's a common, if vulgar, strategy. Us vs Them.
Because most Americans are Xian I think they sympathize with what the leaders were telling them. They like the "idea" that Muslims are evil and Mohammad was either Satan himself or tricked by Satan. Certainly such a scenario would fit nicely within most mainstream Xian belief. Playing off such xenophobic religious fears is common to most governments. The only thing that can kind of keep this in check is democratic institutions. If we make the assumption that the majority of people do not have their heads completely up their theocratic arse. Also, having a bad guy is as old as civilization itself. Mohammad didn't designate non-believers for nothing.
It's a common, if vulgar, strategy. Us vs Them.
Probably. .:p
"The Americans talked about our province as the deadliest enemy, and suddenly they are marketing us as their best friends," Sa’doon Khalifa, an independent politician in the capital city of al-Anbar Province, Ramadi -- 110 km west of Baghdad -- told IPS. "They were lying to their people and to the world in both cases as we were never terrorists nor their friends now," he stressed.
Khalifa explained that resistance fighters in al-Anbar did fight occupation forces, but now they are standing down from launching new attacks against U.S. forces.
This is due in large part to U.S. military payments to collaborating tribal sheikhs -- already totalling over 17 million dollars. The money funds tribal fighters who are paid 300 dollars per month to patrol their areas, particularly against foreign fighters.
The military refers to these men as "Concerned Local Citizens," "Awakening Force," or simply "volunteers," even though it is well known that most of them used to carry out attacks against the occupation forces.
"Those Americans thought they would decrease the resistance attacks by separating the people of Iraq into sects and tribes," a 32-year-old man from Ramadi -- speaking on terms of anonymity -- told IPS, "They know they are going deeper into the moving sand, but the collaborators are fooling the Americans right now, and will in the end use this strategy against them."
http://www.dahrjamailiraq.com/hard_news/archives/iraq/000693.php
Michael
01-13-08, 08:09 PM
Sounds like utter nonsense to me, You do agree that people are blowing themselves up on occasion in Iraq? Obviously one needs a bomb to do so. One needs a target. One needs a bomb maker and one needs a target designator. According to common sense it is neither the bomb maker or the target designator that are blowing themselves up. Hence the volunteer and a handler. So? How does one get someone to volunteerily blow themselves up?
You do agree that people are blowing themselves up on occasion in Iraq? Obviously one needs a bomb to do so. One needs a target. One needs a bomb maker and one needs a target designator. According to common sense it is neither the bomb maker or the target designator that are blowing themselves up. Hence the handler. So? How does one get someone to volunteerily blow themselves up?
You blow up their families.
Michael
01-13-08, 08:12 PM
Oh I do, do I? How is that SAM?
Oh I see rhetorical YOU :)
Michael
01-13-08, 08:14 PM
Yeah, so I am speaking of the people who volunteer from another country. How do you get such a person to blow themselves up?
Did you miss post #80? :D
And yeah, I never go for that "one wants" stuff. Sorta like " my uh friend has uh a problem"
Yeah, so I am speaking of the people who volunteer from another country. How do you get such a person to blow themselves up?
It does not matter where they are from, if they feel solidarity with their "brother".
Sorta like Australians fighting US wars in Iraq.
Michael
01-13-08, 08:23 PM
Did you miss post #80? :D
And yeah, I never go for that "one wants" stuff. Sorta like " my uh friend has uh a problem"I did miss that post. Seems to fit.
I think it usually takes something extra ordinary to get someone to strap on a bomb for a country or a family that is not theirs. Aussies will fight in Iraq but they do so thinking they will be paid and comeback when the fight is won.
I did miss that post. Seems to fit.
I think it usually takes something extra ordinary to get someone to strap on a bomb for a country or a family that is not theirs. Aussies will fight in Iraq but they do so thinking they will be paid and comeback when the fight is won.
I think you underestimate idealism in young men. Think of soldiers dying to go to war. Literally.
Michael
01-13-08, 08:30 PM
Just ask yourself this. Do Muslims take their religion seriously? If someone could use that faith to convince a Muslim into doing a suicide bombing would they? If yes, then what sort of things do you think that they'd tell them - promises of the riches they will enjoy in Heaven? I think it seems reasonable.
What I would do is play on the fact that they are going to join a list of Great Martyrs and that their Heroic deed will be sung for all of History. Or some such crap.
Then sneak in a bit about the 72 hot babes in heaven they are going to be getting it on with tonight (if they blow themselves up this morning). Don't work that one over too much. Just enough so that they know it's going to come true. Then keep working on this Hero theme and let the 72 virgins play themselves out in the back ground.
that is probably enough for many a idiot brainwashed kid.
Basically take the DEEP religious brainwashing that is already firmly rooted and use it to your advantage.
Oldest trick in the book,
Michael
Michael
01-13-08, 08:31 PM
I think you underestimate idealism in young men. Think of soldiers dying to go to war. Literally.That is true - but I'd say in 99.99% of the time the solder thinks they are going to come home a real man and a hero.
That is true - but I'd say in 99.99% of the time the solder thinks they are going to come home a real man and a hero.
Yeah I find Westerners dont have the spirit of shahadat.
Its very prolific in the Eastern culture. You should see our movies. The ones where the hero lays down his life for anything, and even if he was a bad guy to begin with, are the crowd pullers.
Dying for honor, family country ideals love
:shrug:
Michael
01-13-08, 11:41 PM
Reminds me of Samurai.
I find most Eastern Heros (Koreans are notorious for this) are a little too cookie cutter. While the Chinese movie Crouching Dragon is nice, I think I like the protagonist to be a little more flawed. I noticed an ad for a TV series were the Hero is a serial killer who hunts down serial killers....
Koreas are always putting together these movies where the Hero is some kid who ala-Skywalker becomes the hero against the odds and ends up with the girl who isn't his sister but is a princess. Every story its always the same. They never have an unhappy ending. It's so modern day Hollywood...
Michael
01-13-08, 11:46 PM
Actually I should take that back, some Korean movies are great, before Hollywood messed over Il Mare (lake house) the protagonist actually dies in the end. But Scooby Doo America seems to prefer the Walt Disney movie now a days ...
I have found most Chinese and Indian movies to have at least one death in the end, in fact in India it is a standard joke to guess who will die with appropriate dialogues.
madanthonywayne
01-14-08, 12:29 AM
Who said anything about poor or disadvantaged?
YOU.
"Hahahaha he blew himself up for 72 virgins" sounds much better than "he blew himself up because without food, employment or access to education and healthcare, he could no longer find any way to support his family and just wanted to do something violent and get it over with and take some of those who were responsible for his conditions with him"
So someone without food, employment, access to healthcare, or an ability to support his family is not poor or disadvantaged?
iceaura
01-14-08, 12:54 AM
So someone without food, employment, access to healthcare, or an ability to support his family is not poor or disadvantaged? Depends on how they got that way.
One doesn't usually describe robbery victims, for example, as "poor or disadvantaged". Nor does one explain their actions in complaint or revenge by pointing to their poverty.
YOU.
So someone without food, employment, access to healthcare, or an ability to support his family is not poor or disadvantaged?
Nope, I said they had no access, however most of the Palestinians regardless of personal worth fall into this category. This is also true of all Iraqis under occupation and especially those enclosed in walls built by the US. Does not mean they don't have money or wealth or ability or qualifications, but with no access to food, education or employment, they are f*cked.
e.g.
An ongoing economic boycott and intermittent border closures have created humanitarian problems for Gaza’s residents, including a deteriorating agricultural sector, the United Nations and the Palestinian Authority (PA) said.
The PA’s Minister of Agriculture, Mohammed al-Agha, told IRIN that “Israel’s security measures had cost Palestinian farmers thousands of acres of farmland and nearly US $1.2 billion since the start of the second intifada [Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation] in September 2000.” Israel says it was necessary to clear land to prevent cross-border terrorist attacks.
UN spokesperson Marie Okabe told reporters in New York recently that “Gaza’s food security remains an issue of serious concern. Furthermore, Gaza’s agricultural markets continue to suffer from access restrictions.”
It's quite unfortunate Women under Islam get the short end of the stick...wonder what a female suicide bomber gets in paradise if she blows herself up?
Trolling now? Or simply unable to grasp the information given?
Trolling now? Or simply unable to grasp the information given?
You mean Information from your radical brand of Islam with a touch of girl power. Do you realize you could be arrested in Saudi arabia for discrediting the hadith's!
You haven't experienced enough insights to the common practises and habits of the people in Saudi to pass any factual judgement on their customs!
You mean Information from your radical brand of Islam with a touch of girl power. Do you realize you could be arrested in Saudi arabia for discrediting the hadith's!
You haven't experienced enough insights to the common practises and habits of the people in Saudi to pass any factual judgement on their customs!
You may be surprised to know this but it was from the Saudis that I learned that the Hadiths have rules and isnad. :rolleyes:
You may be surprised to know this but it was from the Saudis that I learned that the Hadiths have rules and isnad. :rolleyes:
So I thought the whole wahabi brand didn't appeal to your taste?
So I thought the whole wahabi brand didn't appeal to your taste?
Whats Wahabi about checking the chain of narration?
Whats Wahabi about checking the chain of narration?Tirmidhi's understanding of the Gharib Hadith (weak tradition), concurs to a certain extent with that of the other traditionists.
http://www.jamiat.org.za/isinfo/tirmidhi04.html
From what I know, alot of Saudis from the Western region follow a madhab, usually Shafii or Hanafi and Saudis from the Eastern region are either Sh'ias, Shafiis or Hanafis...but Saudi Arabia is officially Salafi (they don't follow a madhab, although Salafism is based on the Hanbali madhab).
Tirmidhi's understanding of the Gharib Hadith (weak tradition), concurs to a certain extent with that of the other traditionists.
http://www.jamiat.org.za/isinfo/tirmidhi04.html
From what I know, alot of Saudis from the Western region follow a madhab, usually Shafii or Hanafi and Saudis from the Eastern region are either Sh'ias, Shafiis or Hanafis...but Saudi Arabia is officially Salafi (they don't follow a madhab, although Salafism is based on the Hanbali madhab).
And again, what does that have to do with isnad?
And again, what does that have to do with isnad? You tell me you brought it up!
You tell me you brought it up!
Nope
So I thought the whole wahabi brand didn't appeal to your taste?
Nope I'm not familiar with this terminology but if it's something to do with internal consistency of the hadiths, then you shouldn't be looking at it from a wahabi perspective...
madanthonywayne
01-14-08, 06:41 PM
An ongoing economic boycott and intermittent border closures have created humanitarian problems for Gaza’s residents, including a deteriorating agricultural sector, the United Nations and the Palestinian Authority (PA) said.
The PA’s Minister of Agriculture, Mohammed al-Agha, told IRIN that “Israel’s security measures had cost Palestinian farmers thousands of acres of farmland and nearly US $1.2 billion since the start of the second intifada [Palestinian uprising against Israeli occupation] in September 2000.” Israel says it was necessary to clear land to prevent cross-border terrorist attacks.
UN spokesperson Marie Okabe told reporters in New York recently that “Gaza’s food security remains an issue of serious concern. Furthermore, Gaza’s agricultural markets continue to suffer from access restrictions.”
So you blame Israel for trying to defend itself against Palestinian attacks. I blame the Palestinians. If they weren't constantly sending suicide bombers into Israel, they wouldn't need the wall.
So long as Palestinians support terrorism, they deserve whatever they get.
So you blame Israel for trying to defend itself against Palestinian attacks. I blame the Palestinians. If they weren't constantly sending suicide bombers into Israel, they wouldn't need the wall.
So long as Palestinians support terrorism, they deserve whatever they get.
I presume if China occupies the US, you will hail them with flowers for fear of being thought a terrorist supporter.
madanthonywayne
01-15-08, 12:33 AM
I presume if China occupies the US, you will hail them with flowers for fear of being thought a terrorist supporter.
I'd fight the invaders. Attack their command and control. Attack their officials. Attack their weapons depots. I sure as hell wouldn't go on a campaign of killing women and children.
I'd fight the invaders. Attack their command and control. Attack their officials. Attack their weapons depots. I sure as hell wouldn't go on a campaign of killing women and children.
And if you can't? If the military targets you're suggesting as so well defended that such an attack is impossible?
I'm as disgusted by attacks on civilians as you are. I'm just wondering what the next step would be for you in this hypothetical.
It's really ignorant for one to pass judgement on a country which one hasn't even visited. I think our resident fundamentalist (S.A.M) should make a trip to Israel sit in a cafe, have a coffee and then come back and make the remarks!
madanthonywayne
01-16-08, 01:24 AM
And if you can't? If the military targets you're suggesting as so well defended that such an attack is impossible?
I'm as disgusted by attacks on civilians as you are. I'm just wondering what the next step would be for you in this hypothetical.If you're willing to die yourself (which suicide bombers obviously are), there is no amount of defense that can prevent you from doing major damage. Even the president isn't really safe from someone willing to trade their life for his.
So I really can't imagine a situation in which I'd believe it was justified to blow up buses full of children or randomly set off bombs in public places. Go after the enemy, not women and children.
Revolvr
01-16-08, 10:26 AM
Now that we've had our fun, here is my more serious question. It seems that in Paradise, one has virgins (possibly of either sex) to have fun with to your heart's content.
Why is it that behavior in this life that is considered sinful, no longer sinful in the afterlife?
Why is it that the afterlife appeals to materialistic concerns and pleasures of the flesh?
And just who are these virgins? Are they other people who have died? Or are they Jinn or some other spirit beings? And why would they want to have sex with you? Don't they have their own minds? Their own needs, wants?
Ghost_007
01-16-08, 05:26 PM
The Islamic Paradise or Jannat which was invented by Mohammed to bribe the Arabs into committing hedious crimes by promising them materialistic things which they couldn't obtain in the harsh desert. The paradise contains six important items: beautiful virgins, young boys, water, wine, fruits and wealth.
Mohammed knew that sex would sell very well among the group of his lecherous followers who were motivated to fight battles by the promise of sex slaves and booty. By constantly emphasizing to his followers that they would get untouched virgins in Paradise, Mohammed is clearly expressing his "high" opinion of the institution of marriage and his fairness to women. Once the followers go to heaven, they can conveniently ditch their wives for the fresher and more pleasurable sexual encounters with 'Houris' (beautiful virgins). Not only that, the poor wives who gave up their virginity for the pleasure of their husbands do not get even one Male Sex Bomb. But wait, Allah is all merciful! He gives the wives the rare honour of watching their husbands deflower those 72 Houris (virgins) and 28 young pre-pubescent boys.
Koran 78:31
As for the righteous, they shall surely triumph. Theirs shall be gardens and vineyards, and high- bosomed virgins for companions: a truly overflowing cup.
Koran 37:40-48
...They will sit with bashful, dark-eyed virgins, as chaste as the sheltered eggs of ostriches.
Koran 44:51-55
...Yes and We shall wed them to dark-eyed houris. (beautiful virgins)
Koran 52:17-20
...They shall recline on couches ranged in rows. To dark-eyed houris (virgins) we shall wed them...
Koran 55:56-57
In them will be bashful virgins neither man nor Jinn will have touched before.Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny ?"
Koran 55:57-58
Virgins as fair as corals and rubies. Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny ?"
Koran 56:7-40
...We created the houris (the beautiful women) and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand.. "
Koran 55:70-77
"In each there shall be virgins chaste and fair... Dark eyed virgins sheltered in their tents whom neither man nor Jin will have touched before..
Oh wait it gets better....
In the Hadiths, Mohammed goes one step further and expands the promise of virgins to include a free sex market where there is no limit of the number of sexual partners. Women and young boys are on display as if in a fruit market where you can choose the desired ripeness.
Quote from Hadiths
Al Hadis, Vol. 4, p. 172, No. 34
Ali reported that the Apostle of Allah said, "There is in Paradise a market wherein there will be no buying or selling, but will consist of men and women. When a man desires a beauty, he will have intercourse with them."
Homosexuality was and is widely practised in Islamic conutries. To please the homosexuals among his followers he promised them pre-pubescent boys in Paradise. So after committing plunder, loot, rape and murder in this life, the followers of Islam get "rewarded" by untouched virginal youths who are fresh like pearls.
The relevant verses from the Koran are:
Koran 52:24
Round about them will serve, to them, boys (handsome) as pearls well-guarded.
Koran 56:17
Round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness.
Koran 76:19
And round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness: if thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered pearls.
Alot of famous poets in Arabia glorified homosexuality.
Mohammed's promise of an Islamic Paradise that glittered with the fulfillment of all sorts of wordly desires and sense enjoyment was nothing but a sinister ploy to recruit those who had no hope or expectation of ever getting these things in their present lives. Knowing that they are assured of such a Paradise simply because they follow Islam, Muslims can go around committing murder, rape plunder and loot. It is the picture of this paradise that has motivated Muslims over the centuries to cut down people of other religions, to desecrate their places of worship and mistreat them in the name of Allah. Even after death, the spritually deprived Prophet of Islam could not see beyond wine, women and food, leave alone exploring spiritual heights of the soul.
Source? Did you put this together yourself?
The Islamic Paradise or Jannat which was invented by Mohammed to bribe the Arabs into committing hedious crimes by promising them materialistic things which they couldn't obtain in the harsh desert. The paradise contains six important items: beautiful virgins, young boys, water, wine, fruits and wealth.
The early Muslims conquered the entire Arabian Peninsula, later much of the Middle-East as well as Northern Africa. They would have had access to 'beautiful virgins, young boys, water, wine, fruits and wealth', they had access to it all. Why would Muhammad (pbuh) have promised such things to them in the afterlife when he could have promised them such things in this life? Anyway, that accusation is baseless. Many early Muslims abandoned the Worldy life (pursuit of riches) when they joined Muhammad (pbuh) in his struggle (and it was a real struggle). Abu Bakr (The Prophet's closest Companion) gave all his riches for Islam, he left nothing for himself and Abu Bakr was a well respected person in Makkah. The Prophet as well as many of his Companions lived a life of hardship - this must be emphasised.
Mohammed knew that sex would sell very well among the group of his lecherous followers who were motivated to fight battles by the promise of sex slaves and booty. By constantly emphasizing to his followers that they would get untouched virgins in Paradise, Mohammed is clearly expressing his "high" opinion of the institution of marriage and his fairness to women. Once the followers go to heaven, they can conveniently ditch their wives for the fresher and more pleasurable sexual encounters with 'Houris' (beautiful virgins). Not only that, the poor wives who gave up their virginity for the pleasure of their husbands do not get even one Male Sex Bomb. But wait, Allah is all merciful! He gives the wives the rare honour of watching their husbands deflower those 72 Houris (virgins) and 28 young pre-pubescent boys.
Was the battle for Makkah about sex, slaves and booty, what about the battle of Badr? Uhud? The most momentous and important battles for the Muslims had nothing to do with sex, slaves and booty, they were about survival! When the Muslims gathered strength, the battles were about propelling Islam and bringing an end to the current system of governance.
The rest of the paragraph is baseless nonsense.
Homosexuality was and is widely practised in Islamic conutries. To please the homosexuals among his followers he promised them pre-pubescent boys in Paradise. So after committing plunder, loot, rape and murder in this life, the followers of Islam get "rewarded" by untouched virginal youths who are fresh like pearls.
Does Islam condone homosexuality? Please provide evidence.
The relevant verses from the Koran are:
Context?
Mohammed's promise of an Islamic Paradise that glittered with the fulfillment of all sorts of wordly desires and sense enjoyment was nothing but a sinister ploy to recruit those who had no hope or expectation of ever getting these things in their present lives.
Addressed earlier.
Knowing that they are assured of such a Paradise simply because they follow Islam, Muslims can go around committing murder, rape plunder and loot.
So you're telling me Islam allows Muslims to commit murder, rape, plunder and loot? evidence please.
It is the picture of this paradise that has motivated Muslims over the centuries to cut down people of other religions, to desecrate their places of worship and mistreat them in the name of Allah. Even after death, the spritually deprived Prophet of Islam could not see beyond wine, women and food, leave alone exploring spiritual heights of the soul.
You clearly know very little about Islam or are being intentionally deceptive.
Islam does promise rewards for the faithful i.e. rewards for all good deeds done in this life. However you fail to understand the core of Islamic teachings. Muslims believe that the zenith of belief and faith is when one lives to please God - for the sake of God, not for the sake of rewards.
The purity of the intention for an action is also extremely important. Let’s take charity as an example. In Islam it is an obligation for someone earning to give a certain amount in charity - giving in charity is a rewardable deed. Let’s say some rich so and so makes a very public donation to a charity, however this guy’s actions were actually a PR stunt, he simply wanted people to think well of him – he was not motivated to alleviate the suffering of others, his intention was not sincere. His action will not be equal to that of a poor person with a sincere intention who can only afford to give a small amount to charity – they are not equal in rank. The Prophet taught us that actions are judged by intention and we believe God is fully aware of our intention.
Islamic scholars particularly Sufis regard the rewards promised in heaven to be distractions and actually consider them tests. They can compromise our intention. The Muslim freedom fighter can be used as another example. A Mujahid goes to fight in order to alleviate the suffering of others (a duty), they go to help other people in need, they go to fight the aggressor, they don’t go to fight just so they can receive x, y and z in the afterlife.
I just want to reassure everyone, to answer the thread's topic, I am a virgin. thank you all.
joepistole
01-16-08, 06:00 PM
Well, do you get the 72 virgins for martyrdom or not? And if women commit martyrdom do they get 72 virgins too? How does that work?
Well, do you get the 72 virgins for martyrdom or not? And if women commit martyrdom do they get 72 virgins too? How does that work?
well I dont believe in heaven or hell to begin with
Well, do you get the 72 virgins for martyrdom or not? And if women commit martyrdom do they get 72 virgins too? How does that work?
Does the virgin Mary ring a bell?:rolleyes:
Dr Lou Natic
01-16-08, 10:04 PM
A bell of relavence to the discussion? No, it doesn't.
Just checking his attention span :D
(see post #13)
joepistole
01-16-08, 10:51 PM
SAM what is the bottom line with virgins and martyrdom in Islam? Is the cleric/scholar's intrepretation of the Koran deemed to be a true intrepretation? How is it applied to female martyrdom or homosexual martyrs?
I have heard that some very bad individuals choose Islamic martyrdom because it allows them to be very bad on earth (they can do whatever they want, break any and all rules) and they get the extra benefits in heaven when the die. Can you shed some light on this for me? Thanks
joepistole
01-17-08, 08:13 AM
SAM, unless I hear otherwise I am going to assume that what I have heard about Islam and virgins is true. As I know you can well express yourself and do it often.
Radical Islam seems bent on blaming America for all the ills of the world, which cannot possibly be true, since America is only slightly older than two hundred years..compared to Egypt ( and thus Arabs )being over five thousand years of age. Radical Islam and certain benefactors of such terrible people reside in places such as Germany, where hatred of Jews, though God made the Jews and gave them life as well as all people, helps radical Islam.
Seeing through the history of Islam, the ideological founder's life through the Sirat (Early biography) and the hadith (Traditions of the prophet) as well as how the shar'iah of Islam (Islamic code of the law) is translated today in countries such as the Islamic Republic of Iran, it is a very patriarchal religion. Men are supposedly allowed to have a harem of four women tops, while women are not subject to the same rule.
The muslim women better start wish their vision of heaven at least has an abundance of battery operated toys, or their husbands will prolly just neglect them for the 72 virgins.
SAM what is the bottom line with virgins and martyrdom in Islam? Is the cleric/scholar's intrepretation of the Koran deemed to be a true intrepretation? How is it applied to female martyrdom or homosexual martyrs?
I have heard that some very bad individuals choose Islamic martyrdom because it allows them to be very bad on earth (they can do whatever they want, break any and all rules) and they get the extra benefits in heaven when the die. Can you shed some light on this for me? Thanks
Bottom line:
[20:114] Do not be in haste with the Qur'an before its revelation to you is completed, but say, "O my Sustainer! Increase my knowledge."
[99:7-8] "Whoever does an atom weight of good will see it, and whoever does an atom weight of evil will see it."
joepistole
01-17-08, 02:47 PM
So the 9/11 criminals who came to this country, drank booze, and went to strip clubs before crashing planes into buildings are going to pay for those offenses or are they going to get virgins?
machaon
01-17-08, 03:05 PM
The Islamic Paradise or Jannat which was invented by Mohammed to bribe the Arabs into committing hedious crimes by promising them materialistic things which they couldn't obtain in the harsh desert. The paradise contains six important items: beautiful virgins, young boys, water, wine, fruits and wealth.
All I needed was a good reason to convert. Do you know where I can buy a fully automatic assault rifle? (just in case I end up in the christians version of heaven)
So the 9/11 criminals who came to this country, drank booze, and went to strip clubs before crashing planes into buildings are going to pay for those offenses or are they going to get virgins?
What virgins?
Jozen-Bo
01-18-08, 07:46 AM
Vega,
you have made your point wonderfully!!!
I totally understand the unfairness you speak of.
Every religion talks about the man getting alotta vagina...and the women is usually denied alotta dick.
(Every magor religion talks of pologamy for the guy...? Buddhism writes of lands where a hundred million billion countless number women all devote themselves to one single guy...I must admit I would like to be that guy!!!!)
How can I refuse a women's wild fantasy about getting banged hard by a bunch of men when I myself have the fantasy of getting banged really hard by a billion million women?
I hope everyone gets what they want!!!
If you are a women and have sexual fantasys...whatever they are I hope they get fullfilled! EQUALITY OF THE SEXES!!!!
joepistole
01-18-08, 11:56 AM
I think you are evading the question SAM.
Arsalan
01-18-08, 11:15 PM
The Islamic Paradise or Jannat which was invented by Mohammed to bribe the Arabs into committing hedious crimes by promising them materialistic things which they couldn't obtain in the harsh desert.
Dont state your opinion as fact.
Mohammed knew that sex would sell very well among the group of his lecherous followers who were motivated to fight battles by the promise of sex slaves and booty. By constantly emphasizing to his followers that they would get untouched virgins in Paradise, Mohammed is clearly expressing his "high" opinion of the institution of marriage and his fairness to women. Once the followers go to heaven, they can conveniently ditch their wives for the fresher and more pleasurable sexual encounters with 'Houris' (beautiful virgins). Not only that, the poor wives who gave up their virginity for the pleasure of their husbands do not get even one Male Sex Bomb. But wait, Allah is all merciful! He gives the wives the rare honour of watching their husbands deflower those 72 Houris (virgins) and 28 young pre-pubescent boys.
I know you probably have a sick mind but please keep your distasteful fantasies about orgies in the afterlife to yourself. Now let’s look at the verses you provide to support this opinion you concocted in your sick little mind:
Koran 78:31
As for the righteous, they shall surely triumph. Theirs shall be gardens and vineyards, and high- bosomed virgins for companions: a truly overflowing cup.
This is not just 1 verse but a couple of verses:
Verily, for the righteous is a triumph.
Walled gardens and grapevines.
And young maidens of equal age.(7:32-34)
These verses say that those who are righteous will have wives or companions possessing freshness and vigour of youth and enjoying eminent positions, being of noble descent, and fired with high and noble ambitions as we can see from the Arabic lexicon used here and in verse 56:35.
Koran 37:40-48
...They will sit with bashful, dark-eyed virgins, as chaste as the sheltered eggs of ostriches.
Let’s look at the verses:
These will have a known provision:
Fruits; and they shall be honoured,
In the Gardens of Bliss,
Seated on thrones, facing one another.
They will be served round with a cup from a flowing fountain,
Sparkling white, delicious to the drinkers,
Wherein there will be no intoxication, nor will they be exhausted thereby.
And with them will be chaste women, with restrained looks and large beautiful eyes.
As though they were sheltered eggs.
I’m interested as to your definition of chaste. In your sick concocted fantasy about the afterlife, you say that everyone will be having sex and then try to attribute that to the Quran. Yet the Quran mentions chaste women. In my definition of chaste women, orgies is not the first thing that comes to mind.
Anyway, the word used here for women having large beautiful eyes has numerous meanings which include a good or beautiful word or saying. But the fact of the matter is that all these things mentioned in these verses were endowed to the Muslims right here on Earth. They had gardens of bliss. They sat on thrones. They had the most beautiful chaste women as wives. This verse is about the reward for Muslims. Whether on Earth or in the afterlife is up to you. But it definitely doesn’t support your sick concoction.
Koran 44:51-55
...Yes and We shall wed them to dark-eyed houris. (beautiful virgins)
The verses are as follows:
Verily, the righteous will be in a place of security.
Amid gardens and springs,
Attired in fine silk ad heavy brocade, facing one another.
Thus will it be. And We shall give them as companions fair maidens, having wide, black eyes.
Once again, the verse mentions companions. I don’t see anything about sex or orgies with loads of women. Maybe you do? If so please point it out for me.
Koran 52:17-20
...They shall recline on couches ranged in rows. To dark-eyed houris (virgins) we shall wed them...
The verses are as follows:
Verily, the righteous will surely be in Gardens and in Bliss.
Enjoying what their Lord has bestowed on them; and their Lord will save them from the torment of the Fire.
And will say to them, ‘Eat and drink in happiness because of what you used to do.
‘Reclining on couches arranged in rows’. And we shall consort them with fair maidens having wide, beautiful eyes
And those who believe and whose children follow them in faith—With them shall We join their children. And We will not diminish anything from the reward of their works. Every man stands pledged for what he has earned.
And We shall bestow upon them every kind of fruit and meat such as they will wish for.
There they will pass from one to another a cup wherein is neither levity nor sin
In short these and other verses describe the rewards of Heaven.
On further examination of these verses we find that that life after death in Islam is only an image and manifestation of the present life and the rewards and punishments of the next would be only embodiments and images of the actions done in this life. Heaven and Hell are not new material worlds which come from outside. It is true that they shall be visible and palpable, call them material, if you please, but they are only embodiments of the spiritual facts of this life. The spiritual torture of this world has been represented in the Quran as a physical punishment in the next. The chains to be put around the necks of disbelievers, for instance, represent the desires of this world which keep a man’s head bent upon the earth, and it is these desires that shall assume the shape of chains. Similarly, the entanglements of this world shall be seen as on the feet in the next. The heat-burning of this world shall likewise be clearly seen as flames of burning fire etc. Thus, according to the teachings of the Quran, there will be gardens, streams, milk, honey, flesh of birds, wine, fruits, thrones, companions and many other things in Paradise, but they will not be the things of this world but the embodiments of spiritual facts of the life of this world.
Furthermore, upon further examination of the verses relating to the afterlife in the Quran, we find that there will be no sin, levity or vain talk in Paradise, no pleasures of the flesh as we understand them, but all-pervading peace and pleasure of God as we see from the verses in Chapter 56. In view of this Quranic conception of Paradise, it is the height of ignorance or, in your case, simply blind prejudice, to suggest that the Quran promises a sensuous Paradise to its followers.
Moreover, looking at the various meanings of some of the words, the verse may mean that in Paradise the righteous servants of God will be made to live with pure and clean companions whose faces will be shining with radiant spiritual beauty, or they will have as companions fair maidens i.e. their wives. That is supported by the verse which says that the children of the believers will be reunited with them. All in all, families will be reunited in Paradise. The beautiful companions are the wives in this world and they and the children and the men will all be reunited.
The thing is that you don’t see people as God does, you don’t see that beauty in people. You think that when the Quran mentions beautiful maidens, it automatically means someone other than the wife, which is your fault, not the Qurans.
Koran 55:56-57
In them will be bashful virgins neither man nor Jinn will have touched before. Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny ?"
Now let’s look at these verses:
Therein will also be chaste maidens of modest gaze, whom neither man nor Jinn will have touched before them
In the foregoing verses mention was made of gardens, couches, fruits etc. that believers will get. In order to complete their peace and happiness, they will also enjoy the company of good companions. And there can be no better companion for a person than a virtous wife and since all women are beautiful, so are they presented in the Quran. Those wives are meant in these verses when mention is made of “companions”. The words used here also signify that impure things which excite carnal passions in the mind will not enter their thoughts, they will all be pure.
Koran 55:57-58
Virgins as fair as corals and rubies. Then which of the favours of your Lord will you deny ?"
Let’s look at the verses:
As if they were rubies and small pearls
Whereas in previous verses the purity of the mind of these wives is mentioned, here there physical beauty is mentioned. Strange, isn’t it, that nowhere sex is mentioned?
Koran 56:7-40
...We created the houris (the beautiful women) and made them virgins, loving companions for those on the right hand.. "
Let’s look at the verses:
And they will have noble spouses—Verily, we have created them a good creation,
And made them virgins,
Loving, of equal age
Now, you take this verse to mean that there will be loads of women for a man and there will be orgies in abundance. Yet the words used here say noble spouses. So in light of these and more Quranic verses I take it to mean that in order to complete their happiness and peace of mind, the believers will have for their companions pure, beautiful spouses of noble descet and high dignity.
Btw, the word used here for virgins specifically implies men who have not touched a woman. Therefore the noble spouses mentioned here are the male companions women will get. Of course, you didn’t know that but don’t let that stop you from spreading your ignorance!
Oh wait it gets better....
In the Hadiths, Mohammed goes one step further and expands the promise of virgins to include a free sex market where there is no limit of the number of sexual partners. Women and young boys are on display as if in a fruit market where you can choose the desired ripeness.
Quote from Hadiths
Al Hadis, Vol. 4, p. 172, No. 34
Ali reported that the Apostle of Allah said, "There is in Paradise a market wherein there will be no buying or selling, but will consist of men and women. When a man desires a beauty, he will have intercourse with them."
Can you please give me the link to the site you got this from? I want to check out this source for myself before I comment on it.
So after committing plunder, loot, rape and murder in this life,
And where exactly are they allowed to do that?
the followers of Islam get "rewarded" by untouched virginal youths who are fresh like pearls.
Dont disguise your homophobic intentions under disgust for ALLEGED homosexuality mentioned in the Quran. But let me just clarify these verses for you as well seeing as your ignorance will prevent you from seeking the truth yourself.
The relevant verses from the Koran are:
Koran 52:24
Round about them will serve, to them, boys (handsome) as pearls well-guarded.
Let’s look at the verses:
And We shall bestow upon them every kind of fruit and meat such as they will wish for.
There they will pass from one to another cup wherein is neither levity nor sin.
And there will wait upon them youths of their own, pure as though they were pearls well preserved.
Youths of their own... Hmm.. Having gay sex with youths of your own... Now there is a pickle! I’m pretty sure you have not read ANYTHING in the Quran except what you find on hate sites because otherwise you would have known that this verse speaks of youths of your own. And who are these youths? The word used for youth here is used in 3:41 – 15:54 – 19:8 – 37:102 – 51:29 and 76:20 meaning and implying “son” which shows that, according to this verse, the youths who will move about in the company of the righteous in Paradise will be their own children, i.e. youths of their own. This, once again, supports what I said earlier about families being reunited i.e. beautiful women (mothers and wives) and children.
Koran 56:17
Round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness.
Let’s look at the verse:
There will wait on them youths, who will not age
This verse talks about the servants that the righteous will get in Paradise. Nothing about sex here.
Koran 76:19
And round about them will serve boys of perpetual freshness: if thou seest them, thou wouldst think them scattered pearls.
Same here
Vega's promise of an Islamic Paradise that glittered with the fulfillment of all sorts of wordly desires and sense enjoyment was nothing but a sinister ploy to recruit those who had no hope or expectation of ever getting these things in their present lives. Knowing that they are assured of such a Paradise simply because they follow Vega, his followers can go around committing murder, rape plunder and loot. It is the picture of this paradise that has motivated Vega’sa followers over the centuries to cut down people of other religions, to desecrate their places of worship and mistreat them in the name of Allah. Even after death, the spritually deprived Vega could not see beyond wine, women and food, leave alone exploring spiritual heights of the soul.
There, fixed for you. You apparently know nothing about the Quran and or the Prophet or the early Muslims. If you were in the least bit interested about Paradise in Islam you would find that it is a spiritual place, not a sensuous one. It is not the Qurans fault that when you see a beautiful women you instantly think of sex or that if you see a boy you instantly want to grope and whatnot.
One question though, are you a Christian?
I understand why Muhammad (pbuh) would want to appeal to men, especially men of military age since Islam is a militaristic expansionist religion.
It is not, only in the minds of people like you who want to hate it.
But really SAM you Muslim women get the short end of the stick, both now and in the hereafter. Too bad Muhammad (pbuh) wasn't visionary enough to see the utility in suicide bomber women 1400 years later, perhaps you'd have a better deal.
First of all a suicide bomber commits major sins in Islam. Secondly, I have shown that women will also get noble companions and I have shown that families will be reunited.
Since you know more about the "72", just how was that calculated anyway? Is that the number of woman a Muslim man can deflower, even after eternity?
What a sick thought. It is people like you that want Islamic Paradise to be a sexual place filled with your own distasteful, repressed sexual fantasies.
Nevertheless my question still stands. Does it seem godly to you that a god would appeal to the base instincts of Man (vis a vis rampant sex with virgins) as a motivation to be obedient, rather than appealing to the spiritual?
Ha! Nowhere is there any mention of rampant sex in Paradise! Unbelievable! The Quran and the Hadith have over and over told us that it is a spiritual place, not a sensous one.
So you're saying that Tirmidhi was in error? Was he an arabic speaker himself? Why would he make such an error?
Even though people who recorded Hadith spent a lot of time verifying their authenticity it doesn’t mean that they are all authentic. They were recorded hundreds of years after the death of the Prophet hence their reliability is not that great. Thereore the test should be that if a Hadith is in contradiction to the Quran it should be dismissed.
As a note, it is well known that Hadith submitted by well known liars were recorded, even though they are not followed.
*snip*MAJOR BS*snip*
Not once does the Quran mention the place that is depicted in the result of your “investigation” which would be that no verses from the Quran were used. Odd eh?
Tirmidhi was a well respected scholar and one of the first to collect the Hadiths. Tirmidhi is not referring to the Qur'an, but to specific things Muhammad (pbuh) said.
If you SAM do not follow the teachings in the Hadiths, then you would be a rare Muslim.
Authenticated Hadith, sure. But weak Hadith that clearly go against the Quran are to be dismissed.
Young boys are in paradise as described in the Qur'an, handsome youths of perpetual freshness. I guess they might just be waiters serving drinks.
Good, now youre getting it!
[QUOTE=Michael;1710461]I once read it could be translated as 72 white raisins.
But really it doesn't matter. All monotheistic religions promise something good for obeying God, be it hot sex or nice fruit, whatever it's paradise and some sort of punishment for not obeying God. The thing I find funny, is God, being able to do anything - could (in theory) write a book that was so moving that any and all humans who read it would instantly find it compelling to obey God without the need of a carrot and the stick.
Which he has done. Yet its free will which allows people like you and other haters on here to spread ignorance and hate about Islam. I am pretty sure that none of you have ever read the Quran, just bits and pieces referred to on the hate sites you visit. Which is surprising to me as I would have thought that Atheists want to make the world a better place and spreading hatred and lies about other people does not a better world make.
We don't see Japanese or Chinese studying this awe inspiring words of the Creator of Universe and all that is in it - because when they read these books they simply think that they're funny stories and that's it.
No, they have their own religious books and teachings which they follow. Not that different from any religion tbh.
These books are not treasure tombs overflowing with great pearls of wisdom to anyone other than than the people who are Xian or Muslim.
And yet, they present the moral and ethic code to make this world a better place. Commandments that would make this world a better place. For example, how many of my taxes are wasted each year on criminal damage or unrest resulting from drinking alone?
If this were true, poor disadvantaged people of all faiths all over the world would be blowing themselves up.
But it is NOT true. Muslims of all economic strata blow themselves up as part of Jihad, to die fighting for Allah, which is the ONLY guaranteed way to get to this paradise. A paradise curiously designed to appeal mainly to young men.
Do they fight for Allah or themselves, their country and their brethren? I honestly think none of these people do this for Allah. Just because they are religious means they invoke His help, but that doesn’t mean that they do it for Allah. Its that simple.
I'd say these kids were not mad or insane - but a life long indoctrination process / religious belief had probably thoroughly and completely brainwashed them.
I don’t believe in religious indoctrination. It simply doesn’t work. And don’t bring up Pavlovs dogs please thats such bull to apply that to humans.
Hence the volunteer and a handler. So? How does one get someone to volunteerily blow themselves up?
Pick someone who has had enough of the invading forces and all the chaos that ensued, that has lost everything, tell him he is helping his country and people, give him a bomb and off he goes.
It's quite unfortunate Women under Islam get the short end of the stick...wonder what a female suicide bomber gets in paradise if she blows herself up?
Same thing a male suicide bomber gets: Nothing. They don’t go to Paradise after they blow themselves up and kill innocent people.
So you blame Israel for trying to defend itself against Palestinian attacks. I blame the Palestinians. If they weren't constantly sending suicide bombers into Israel, they wouldn't need the wall.
So long as Palestinians support terrorism, they deserve whatever they get.
Ah yes, blame it on the Palestinians, whose land was taken without even asking them. Who had to flee to other countries and become refugees. Who still wake up every day in fear of an Israeli tank bulldozing down their house. Who are still being killed everyday. And those who stayed, and are now living among Jews, have to fear everyday for their life because of attacks on themselves by young Zionists. Let me tell you, if you were a Palestinian living like that, the first thing you would do after a couple of days is look for an explosive.
I'd fight the invaders. Attack their command and control. Attack their officials. Attack their weapons depots.
The similarities between what you would do and what they are doing are eerie aren’t they?
I sure as hell wouldn't go on a campaign of killing women and children.
HAHA! So that’s why the US proudly announced it had destroyed 300 or was it 3000 villages in 1 day? So that was why in the previous Iraq war the US said if innocent Iraqi children and women died, because they did, it would be ok as long as the job was done.
It's really ignorant for one to pass judgement on a country which one hasn't even visited. I think our resident fundamentalist (S.A.M) should make a trip to Israel sit in a cafe, have a coffee and then come back and make the remarks!
Unless ofcourse you’re a Jews for Jesus member and you happen to run into Rabbi Tovia Singer or if you are the Figeuras family who can’t even go outside safely without fear of being attacked by Jews. Apart from stuff like that, it’s all good. /sarcasm
lucifers angel
01-21-08, 08:41 AM
i a not trying to be awkward or anything but......what happens when the women in heaven are not virgins anymore? i ask because i have always wondered.
i a not trying to be awkward or anything but......what happens when the women in heaven are not virgins anymore? i ask because i have always wondered.
I'm wondering how many guys would enjoy sleeping only with virgins. :D
lucifers angel
01-21-08, 08:45 AM
I'm wondering how many guys would enjoy sleeping only with virgins. :D
yeah thats a point,
joepistole
01-23-08, 12:04 PM
SAM, what does a good Muslim do with conflicting Fatwas? Which one should they obey? How do they know which Fatwa to follow or should they follow any fatwas?
SAM, what does a good Muslim do with conflicting Fatwas? Which one should they obey? How do they know which Fatwa to follow or should they follow any fatwas?
A fatwa is an pronouncement or an opinion on Islamic legal issues.
To be valid, a fatwa has to follow the Usul al-Fiqh (or the Rules of Jurisprudence):
1. The fatwa is in line with relevant legal proofs, deduced from Qur'anic verses and hadiths;
2. It is issued by a person (or a board) having due knowledge and sincerity of heart;
3. It is free from individual opportunism, and not depending on political servitude;
4. It is adequate with the needs of the contemporary world.
Fatwas are nowadays issued by any Tom Dick and Harry, but are not binding unless the civil authority chooses to convert them to law.
e.g. As al-Azhar University is the premier Islamic studies university, any fatwa by them would override fatwas by lesser organisations or scholars (as they are recognised authorities on Islamic jurisprudence or Fiqh).
However the civil authority could still choose a fatwa by a local imam and no one would arrest them. That is a freedom available to them by the flexibility of legal opinion in Islam. Ultimately, it all comes down to the people.
Any Muslim could ignore any fatwa that was inconsistent with his views. Except for peer pressure there is no requirement for them to follow any.
Michael
01-23-08, 06:19 PM
once read it cou