Sciforum Members - What do we believe?

[Michael]

Hi Sciforums - I was wondering what Sciform Member's have for beliefs, or lack thereof - what do we all believe? I know there are some interesting sub-sects of Islam and also some pantheists and maybe some UFOologists?

As for me, I'm atheist.

Michael
PS
(one could say agnostic atheist but atheist all the same)

[S.A.M.]

If we are going into details :

Hanafi Sunni Muslim

[Cris]

I'm a skeptic with a lifestyle of rational self interest.

[lightgigantic]

as for me
Gaudiya Vaishnavism

[sandy]

Born-again on-fire for Jesus Christ Christian.

[BlueMoose]

I believe I need another beer.
:roflmao::cheers:


I´m baptized evangelical lutheran native (Finland) pagan eastern philosopher agnostic "scientist" :eek:

[cosmictraveler]

I believe in myself, not egotistically but realistically. :itold:

[Enmos]

Atheist, or so they call me ;)

[Hercules Rockefeller]

If we are going into details :

Hanafi Sunni Muslim


You would be in a minority in India, wouldn't you? I admit my knowledge of Indian demographics is poor. :p

[S.A.M.]

You would be in a minority in India, wouldn't you? I admit my knowledge of Indian demographics is poor. :p

11.4% of Muslims in India yes. But second largest Muslim population after Indonesia (140 million).:eek:


edit: oops looks like numbers have changed

1 Indonesia 207,000,105 88.20%
2 Pakistan 159,799,666 97%
3 India 151,402,065 13.4%

Most Indians are Sunni Hanafis, with some Shias, like Bohra (http://archive.mumineen.org/publications/oup/bohras.html), Khojas (followers of Aga Khan) and Ismailias (http://www.mb-soft.com/believe/txh/ismaili.htm).

There may be others.:shrug:

[Michael]

Thanks so far and anyone who hasn't please do post.

[Repo Man]

Being unaware of any credible evidence to support any of the worlds religions, I'm left with atheism.

[Kadark]

I don't believe in different denominations for Islam. There should only be one interpretation.

As for me, I'm just Muslim (maybe a bit of a "five-percenter" as well, for those of you who know what that is).

[Donnal]

ohh im into which ive always been into all my life is dark energy
and i guess there is education here in australia and involves traveling to usa also
is part of learning dark energy ahmm you know all that dark stuff
but dont mean im bad just means im different
we even got a school here in brisbane called all hallows eve its a high school for those certain different societies and we got very nice spooky primary schools if you would like to sent your kids to one of those
its all i grew up with dont know nothing else

[Michael]

What's a 5%er?

[S.A.M.]

Is that the nation of Islam? Not sure.

[Adstar]

I believe Jesus.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Crunchy Cat]

Reformed Myuunitarian (http://www.sciforums.com/encyclopedia/Myuu)

[Kadark]

The five-percent nation is an offshoot from the Nation of Islam. I reject most of their beliefs, but I believe very strongly in some.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_of_Gods_and_Earths

[Michael]

The five-percent nation is an offshoot from the Nation of Islam. I reject most of their beliefs, but I believe very strongly in some.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_of_Gods_and_EarthsThat was an interesting link Kadark.

[Michael]

Reformed Myuunitarian (http://www.sciforums.com/encyclopedia/Myuu)
WOW - that's about sums it up - WOW

[Crunchy Cat]

:worship: All hail Myuu!!

[machaon]

I believe that if the truth were to be known, it would be far stranger, far more beautiful than anyone could imagine. It would be like a roundworm being shown advanced mathematics in such a way that it could know that advanced mathematics existed.

[sly1]

IF I had to chose a label I guess Agnostic would portray me the best.

[Michael]

For some reason I thought there were European polytheists or the like?

[Michael]

What about Wicca - no Wiccans?

[Cyperium]

Hi Sciforums - I was wondering what Sciform Member's have for beliefs, or lack thereof - what do we all believe? I know there are some interesting sub-sects of Islam and also some pantheists and maybe some UFOologists?

As for me, I'm atheist.

Michael
PS
(one could say agnostic atheist but atheist all the same)Christian.

[Sarkus]

Apathetic sarcasticism.

Or agnostic atheist.

Either will do.
:D

[BlueMoose]

...But what do I believe (to be The God), well, TIME ( ;)LG ) will tell since I havent found out it yet, or maybe I have but I didnt recognize it then, but right now I´m thinking God Is.
If you have think about God even once in your life time, then The God has been/is in you/in your mind and therefore exist. :D What The God is, is up to you then ;)

[Nikelodeon]

Born Again Christian.

[geeser]

What's a 5%er?your guess is a good as mine.
The main sect and sub sects of islam: Sunnis: (hanafi,( barelwi, deobandi)hanbali, maliki, shafi'l). Shi'ites, (Twelvers, Usooli, Alevi, Ismailiyah, Nizari, Bohras, Dawoodi Bohras, Sulamaini Bohras, Alavi Bohras, Zaiddiyah.) Sufis:( Bektashi, Chishti, Naqshbandi, Oveyssi, Qadiri, Suhrawardiyya.
.)Kahrijites: ( Ibadi, Sufri.).Salafism Wahhabis, Ismailis, Zaidis, Fatimids, Nizari, Alawis, Druze, Baha'i, Zikri, Ahmadiyya.
there are subsub, and even subsubsub sect etc...
he could mean one of the subsubsub sects but then that would makes kadark's claim moot.

and in answer to the OP, a once born rational. (when it's done right, it only need be done once.)

[sandy]

Born Again Christian.

Yeah, uh-huh. :rolleyes: :D

[Why?]

Roman Catholic

[John99]

Agnostic Jesuit.

[SnakeLord]

I am an atheist. I am also an amermaidist, aghostist, avampirist and awerewolfist among other things. I don't play golf either.

Isn't it peculiar... you ask what a person is, the atheist seemingly has little choice but to tell you what he isn't.

[sowhatifit'sdark]

Isn't it peculiar... you ask what a person is, the atheist seemingly has little choice but to tell you what he isn't.
Actually you are as free to list your beliefs as any one else. Assuming you have some beliefs and are not a complete skeptic. You could list those.

[Spud Emperor]

I believe in Huey ( god of waves, weather, and fish).

Also believe in playing the fool with kids, in undermining self-righteous, self proclaimed authoritarian figures.
Believe in making the most of the mortal coil existence we're fronted with.
Believe in amking light of heavy situations, having fun, laughing a lot..shit like that.

Ahh... with an atheist bent of course.

[geeser]

who's this bent atheist your with.

[Hapsburg]

Hi Sciforums - I was wondering what Sciforum Member's have for beliefs, or lack thereof - what do we all believe?
Solitary-practising Wiccan, theologically leaning towards agnostic atheism or pantheism, but I see no conflict between those necessarily. I am also a Kentuckian patriot-autonomist, and I believe Kentucky's contributions to the US's history and progress merit Kentucky being granted further autonomy.

I believe in the sanctity of all the universe, both chaos and order, life and death, humanity and nature.
I believe that sin is nonexistent, and that morality is based on one's actions and the effects towards society, and therefore a saviour in unnecessary.
I believe in a universal, physical force of balance, and that one's actions are reciprocated in one way or another, with an equal reaction.
I believe in a universal force of energy, generated and maintained by all living beings, interpreted by some belief systems as a "spirit", which can be manipulated for purposeful use by one's will.
I believe in the interconnectedness of all living and non-living things, as part of a greater ecosystem, which humans, with our advanced and complex minds, have a duty to steward responsibly.
I believe in tolerance and acceptance of and for all humankind, so as to foster a more united and stronger species to steward our universe.

[Mind Sifter]

Hi Sciforums - I was wondering what Sciform Member's have for beliefs, or lack thereof - what do we all believe? I know there are some interesting sub-sects of Islam and also some pantheists and maybe some UFOologists?

As for me, I'm atheist.

Michael
PS
(one could say agnostic atheist but atheist all the same)

Muslim, Sunni, Shafi'i.

[Jozen-Bo]

The truth believes in me!

[Sarkus]

Actually you are as free to list your beliefs as any one else. Assuming you have some beliefs and are not a complete skeptic. You could list those.I try not to have beliefs at all - only an acceptance of probability.

[fusion4577]

atheist and proud of it
:cheers:

[shichimenshyo]

Atheist.

[Xelios]

Atheist, though if I had to pick a religion I'd say Buddhism.

[Star-gazer]

Being unaware of any credible evidence to support any of the worlds religions, I'm left with atheism.

Ditto

[fusion4577]

Atheist, and there is outerworldly life, but they arn't around earth

[Saquist]

Hi Sciforums - I was wondering what Sciform Member's have for beliefs, or lack thereof - what do we all believe? I know there are some interesting sub-sects of Islam and also some pantheists and maybe some UFOologists?

As for me, I'm atheist.

Michael
PS
(one could say agnostic atheist but atheist all the same)

I think if you're still relating you state of being as a belief then you haven't learned enough to convince you that you of what you understand as knowing.

If some one ask you what is the Capital of China you don't answer, Beijing? You state it...Beijing. If you believe, then quite simply you don't actually know.

I know God exist. I've seen enough proof, I've seen the alternatives:

It doesn't matter if you knowledge offends what someone else believes. How does that really effect you? They couldn't possibly have the same exact knowledge and experiences that you have. So if you're atheist (generally speaking)...then know...belief is always going to be something other people do. What's humorous is that it is always expressed as belief...with no apparent conviction.

[Ghost_007]

Sunni Muslim (Hanafi) – Naqshbandi Sufi.

[Fraggle Rocker]

I'm a scientist. Not a professional, but by philosophy. We've spent the last five hundred years testing the fundamental hypothesis of the scientific method: that the natural universe is a closed system whose behavior can be understood and predicted by deriving theories from empirical observation of its past and present behavior. The hypothesis has withstood all of the testing and we continue to unlock the secrets of the natural universe at a breathtaking rate.

There is no rational reason to hypothesize a supernatural universe that cannot be observed. To do so is to give up on science and science has given us no cause to do that.

Reasoning is one of the basic things that makes us human, and I won't give it up. Religions, on the other hand, are collections of archetypes, instincts implanted in our synapses by accidents of evolution. To believe in religion is to fall back on the animal inside us, and I won't do that either.

[Sarkus]

I think if you're still relating you state of being as a belief then you haven't learned enough to convince you that you of what you understand as knowing.

If some one ask you what is the Capital of China you don't answer, Beijing? You state it...Beijing. If you believe, then quite simply you don't actually know.

I know God exist. I've seen enough proof, I've seen the alternatives:

It doesn't matter if you knowledge offends what someone else believes. How does that really effect you? They couldn't possibly have the same exact knowledge and experiences that you have. So if you're atheist (generally speaking)...then know...belief is always going to be something other people do. What's humorous is that it is always expressed as belief...with no apparent conviction.Saquist - you confuse knowledge and interpretation.

That Beijing is the capital of China is a FACT - it is defined as such and can be nothing else.

You might think you "know" that God exists (as fact), but at best you can merely have reached an interpretation of your experiences that have led you to believe such.
It is your personal assessment / interpretation. It is NOT fact.

Your experiences are fact, undoubtedly, but your interpretation is nothing but subjective.

If you consider it a fact that God exists it is because you "believe" your interpretations to be fact.

I hope that you can see the difference.

And conviction has nothing to do with it.
Conviction does not turn a subjective assessment into fact - or madmen will have soared into the skies unaided as they jump off buildings. Yet still they fall to the ground with a deadly thud.

[Saquist]

I haven't confused anything Sarkus.

Don't let that analogy stumble you. Understand the analogy for how it's being present not for how you understand it. Otherwise you've failed to relate at which point you should ignore the analogy.Or ask for clarification.

Truth is not so narrow as you suggest. Experience is not interpretive, the propper word is subjective, based on perspective. Facts are based on society and any fact can be questioned within varing degrees of prosecution. The facts in of themselves are objective.

For instance. My statement was not "God is a fact." but was "I know God exist."
That's a conclusion solely based on the fact of experiences in research. That is a unique perspective that no one else has. What I have researched is information posessing an objective reality.

It's impact one you and anyont else is minimal.
conviction has everything to do whith how you present what you know or what you believe. It's the distinguishing factor between those who use commonly misunderstood terms and those who say what they mean.

If you mean "know"...then say know. Even if it is subjective don't betray your knowledge to be anything other than fully accepted. Belief has condition of possible doubt.

"There is no doubt there is enough information to conclude that God exist."
This is the entire purpose of a conviction statement. it's an expression of internal knowledge. Yes that is subjective, Yes, it is a conviction. It is not the purpose of such a statement to be understood as a FACT but it is a conclusion.

[Cortex_Colossus]

All matter is a record of its potential at the place of its birth in its wave. Masses of matter, like buoys floating in the ocean to mark courses for ships, are floating in space to register the electric potential of the position of their birth.
Whenever matter is in the place of its birth, it belongs there.

See http://www.walter-russell.de/en/Naturwissenschaft.php

[Cortex_Colossus]

I'm a scientist. Not a professional, but by philosophy. We've spent the last five hundred years testing the fundamental hypothesis of the scientific method: that the natural universe is a closed system whose behavior can be understood and predicted by deriving theories from empirical observation of its past and present behavior. The hypothesis has withstood all of the testing and we continue to unlock the secrets of the natural universe at a breathtaking rate.

There is no rational reason to hypothesize a supernatural universe that cannot be observed. To do so is to give up on science and science has given us no cause to do that.

Reasoning is one of the basic things that makes us human, and I won't give it up. Religions, on the other hand, are collections of archetypes, instincts implanted in our synapses by accidents of evolution. To believe in religion is to fall back on the animal inside us, and I won't do that either.


By distributing the design phase of reality over the actualization phase, conspansive spacetime also provides a distributed mechanism for Intelligent Design, adjoining to the restrictive principle of natural selection a basic means of generating information and complexity. Addressing physical evolution on not only the biological but cosmic level,...

See http://megafoundation.org/CTMU/Articles/Langan_CTMU_092902.pdf

[Cris]

Cortex,

By distributing the design phase of reality over the actualization phase, conspansive spacetime also provides a distributed mechanism for Intelligent Design, adjoining to the restrictive principle of natural selection a basic means of generating information and complexity. Addressing physical evolution on not only the biological but cosmic level,...I just love this CTMU stuff. When the sentences are examined more closely we can see that absolutely nothing is communicated. Wonderful example of intelectualized gibberish.

[shichimenshyo]

Its what hes best at.

[Cortex_Colossus]

Cortex,

I just love this CTMU stuff. When the sentences are examined more closely we can see that absolutely nothing is communicated. Wonderful example of intelectualized gibberish.

Physics gives rise to observer-participancy, observer-participancy gives rise to information, information gives rise to Physics. A "closed loop". The CTMU makes no distinction between matter and information. "Concrete matter now vies with abstract information abstractly representing matter".

[shichimenshyo]

Talking in cirlces literally gets you nowhere.

[Orleander]

I believe that children are our future.
Teach them well and let them lead the way. Show them all the beauty they possess inside.

[Saquist]

Don't forget to give them a sense of pride.

[Sarkus]

Don't let that analogy stumble you. Understand the analogy for how it's being present not for how you understand it. Otherwise you've failed to relate at which point you should ignore the analogy.Or ask for clarification.How can I understand anything in any way other than how I understand it??? Surely if there is a misunderstanding then it is your role to clarify - not for me to assume a misunderstanding on my part. Otherwise we start with the assumption of misunderstanding and never progress.

Truth is not so narrow as you suggest.Yes - it is.
Truth is objective - unchanging. Infinitely narrow.

Experience is not interpretive, the propper word is subjective, based on perspective.Please don't tell me what the proper words are. I use the words I use for reasons. If you do not understand them (English clearly not being your first language - and I mean that as an observation, not an insult) then please do let me know, but do not assume that I have used improper wording.

Facts are based on society...No. To work on this basis is to work in a logical fallacy (Appeal to Popularity / Consensus etc).

...and any fact can be questioned within varing degrees of prosecution. The facts in of themselves are objective.To question a fact, if you state it to be objective, is surely a foolish notion?

For instance. My statement was not "God is a fact." but was "I know God exist."Synonymous. "To know God exists" is the same as "To know God's existence is a fact". This is simple logic.
You can not know something exists without implicitly claiming that existence to be fact.

That's a conclusion solely based on the fact of experiences in research. That is a unique perspective that no one else has. What I have researched is information posessing an objective reality.So what you really meant was "I conclude God exists (based on my subjective interpretation of experience)"?
"Conclude" is different to "know".

conviction has everything to do whith how you present what you know or what you believe.But changes nothing of WHAT you present.
You can claim with absolute conviction that you can fly off a cliff, unaided. It won't change your inevitable succumbing to gravity.

It's the distinguishing factor between those who use commonly misunderstood terms and those who say what they mean.Is it only me who finds your comment to be oh, so ironic?

If you mean "know"...then say know.Sure - as long as you know what "know" means!

"There is no doubt there is enough information to conclude that God exist."Anyone can conclude anything they want. Whether the conclusion follows a logical and rational path from the information is an entirely different story - and the conclusion, in and of itself, speaks nothing of the path taken.

This is the entire purpose of a conviction statement.Yep - adds nothing to the debate at all - as anyone can say anything they want with confidence. The purpose of debate, especially scientific, is to put forward your evidence. If you can not do that and rely solely on conclusions of subjective experience that you can not put forward, then you have no place at the table and must eat with all those others who spout unsupported confidence statements.

it's an expression of internal knowledge. Yes that is subjective, Yes, it is a conviction. It is not the purpose of such a statement to be understood as a FACT but it is a conclusion.Then don't use the word "know". Use the word "conclude".

Understand the difference:
"I know God exists."
"I conclude God exists."

Which one of these expresses the possibility of doubt?

[sisyphus__]

sheesh!

agnostic.

[Saquist]

How can I understand anything in any way other than how I understand it???

It's called imagination. Through it we can percieve a perspective which is not our own.

Yes - it is.
Truth is objective - unchanging. Infinitely narrow.
Then we disagree...not in principle for I actually agree but truth is different things to different people

Please don't tell me what the proper words are. I use the words I use for reasons. If you do not understand them (English clearly not being your first language - and I mean that as an observation, not an insult) then please do let me know, but do not assume that I have used improper wording.

Very well I will not tell you how to use your own language propperly. Clearly it is offensive to you and I don't wish to transgress.

No. To work on this basis is to work in a logical fallacy (Appeal to Popularity / Consensus etc).

Fallacy...no. Society simply is. Perspectives change from one to another. Somethings are commonalities. Society is not just a source of concensus it is a source of knowledge.

To question a fact, if you state it to be objective, is surely a foolish notion?

Synonymous. "To know God exists" is the same as "To know God's existence is a fact". This is simple logic.
You can not know something exists without implicitly claiming that existence to be fact.

Negative. But I'll not define the terms of your language as you view it an act of offense.

So what you really meant was "I conclude God exists (based on my subjective interpretation of experience)"?
"Conclude" is different to "know".

No doubt but it is also synonymous.

But changes nothing of WHAT you present.
You can claim with absolute conviction that you can fly off a cliff, unaided. It won't change your inevitable succumbing to gravity.

I didn't say it did. But if you're going to believe then it might mean you have some doubts. This state of actuality is your hang up Sarkus. I will try to understand where you're going with this Sarkus but your use of this analogy doesn't strike me as definitive. I'm sure it meets your critera but it doesn't relate well.

Is it only me who finds your comment to be oh, so ironic?

Sure - as long as you know what "know" means!

Anyone can conclude anything they want. Whether the conclusion follows a logical and rational path from the information is an entirely different story - and the conclusion, in and of itself, speaks nothing of the path taken.

Yep - adds nothing to the debate at all - as anyone can say anything they want with confidence. The purpose of debate, especially scientific, is to put forward your evidence. If you can not do that and rely solely on conclusions of subjective experience that you can not put forward, then you have no place at the table and must eat with all those others who spout unsupported confidence statements.

Yes anyone can say anything they want with confidence. So narrow it down, don't leave it in a state of happy generalization...use a filter, a process of elimination. If you find the field to wide then reduce the spectrum.



Then don't use the word "know". Use the word "conclude".

Understand the difference:
"I know God exists."
"I conclude God exists."

There is no as much of a difference there as you wish there to be. If you don't share that perspective it's entirely understandable for you objective.

Which one of these expresses the possibility of doubt?


Neither EXPRESSES doubt... What you must mean is which one is absolute. That would be "I know God exist." the other express an agrement, an end of consideration or to reach a logically necessary end by reasoning...

you did ask for definintion here.

[Sarkus]

It's called imagination. Through it we can percieve a perspective which is not our own.Is it really worth correcting you? It appears not - for you will continually use language incorrectly.

Then we disagree...not in principle for I actually agree but truth is different things to different peopleSo you agree - but then say the complete opposite? You baffle me.

Very well I will not tell you how to use your own language propperly. Clearly it is offensive to you and I don't wish to transgress.It is not so much offensive as impolite, not to mention arrogant, to suggest that someone doesn't mean what their words express. For who would know better what they mean more than the one who uses the words?

Fallacy...no.Unfortunately you are incorrect, and clearly you do not understand logical fallacies.

Society simply is. Perspectives change from one to another. Somethings are commonalities. Society is not just a source of concensus it is a source of knowledge.But society does not determine truth. They can at best share an understanding - but if all of society held that they could throw themselves off a cliff and fly unaided - gravity would still win.

Negative. But I'll not define the terms of your language as you view it an act of offense.Merely disagreeing won't make you any more correct, Saquist. If you wish to argue the matter, feel free, but your use of English is inaccurate and your understanding incorrect.

No doubt but it is also synonymous.No - it isn't. "Conclude" and "know" are very different. One expresses a journey of thought (rational or otherwise), the other a mere arrival at an end-point.

I didn't say it did. But if you're going to believe then it might mean you have some doubts. This state of actuality is your hang up Sarkus. I will try to understand where you're going with this Sarkus but your use of this analogy doesn't strike me as definitive. I'm sure it meets your critera but it doesn't relate well.My analogy is just fine, thanks. It relates very well to anyone who understands English.
Don't assume that the person didn't mean what they wrote.
Argue against what is written - not against what you think they might have meant if only you could understand it.

Yes anyone can say anything they want with confidence. So narrow it down, don't leave it in a state of happy generalization...use a filter, a process of elimination. If you find the field to wide then reduce the spectrum.I'm sure this comment of yours was in response to a something I wrote - I'm just not clear how it has any bearing on anything being discussed?

There is no as much of a difference there as you wish there to be.I do not wish there to be a difference - there just is.

If you do not wish to be precise with your use of English words that is your prerogative, but you must then accept that people might not pick up on the meaning you are trying to get across - and that the onus is on you to clarify to them, not for them to guess at what you are inaccurately trying to say.

Neither EXPRESSES doubt...Feel free to re-read what was actually written.

What you must mean is which one is absolute.And there you go again trying to reinterpret my words.

That would be "I know God exist." the other express an agrement, an end of consideration or to reach a logically necessary end by reasoning...If you're going to copy from a dictionary, at least try to understand when each meaning is used:
There is no "agreement" when the term CONCLUDE is expressed by an individual - you can not reach an agreement with yourself. "We conclude" expresses agreement, but "I conclude" does not.

I fully agree that "I conclude" expresses the reaching of an end by reasoning - but it says nothing about the reasoning itself - whether it is rational or irrational. And thus the reasoning is open to debate. Thus the introduction of the possibility for doubt.

you did ask for definintion here.Where exactly did I pose that request?

[Saquist]

Is it really worth correcting you? It appears not - for you will continually use language incorrectly.

I wouldn't consider your perspective that relevent anyway, Sarkus.

So you agree - but then say the complete opposite? You baffle me.

Yes it's called P.O.V

It is not so much offensive as impolite, not to mention arrogant, to suggest that someone doesn't mean what their words express. For who would know better what they mean more than the one who uses the words?

Then I will continue.

Unfortunately you are incorrect, and clearly you do not understand logical fallacies.

Such is the foundatioin of your beliefs.

But society does not determine truth. They can at best share an understanding - but if all of society held that they could throw themselves off a cliff and fly unaided - gravity would still win.

I'm afraid you're wrong. Society does determine truth. It does now And it has before likely it will again baring your weak analogy of course.

Merely disagreeing won't make you any more correct, Saquist. If you wish to argue the matter, feel free, but your use of English is inaccurate and your understanding incorrect.

It is your misconception that this is actually an argument.

No - it isn't. "Conclude" and "know" are very different. One expresses a journey of thought (rational or otherwise), the other a mere arrival at an end-point.

Yes I know. One expresses an arrival the other expresses the location. They're no completely synonomous because that. There is a propper way to express each of them, not necessarily interchangable. Both are expressing an status but in different "tenses" (I'm not sure if that is the propper way to express that.)

For instance. When posed the question:
"How do you know?"
"by process of elimination."

That is a conclusion. It is the same as asking:
"What is your conclusion?"

No it's not exact it's colloquialism.


If you do not wish to be precise with your use of English words that is your prerogative, but you must then accept that people might not pick up on the meaning you are trying to get across - and that the onus is on you to clarify to them, not for them to guess at what you are inaccurately trying to say.

I accept what you're saying. I am not always precise. You however are not free of blame from interpreting either.


If you're going to copy from a dictionary, at least try to understand when each meaning is used:
There is no "agreement" when the term CONCLUDE is expressed by an individual - you can not reach an agreement with yourself. "We conclude" expresses agreement, but "I conclude" does not.

I don't think I copied that from a dictionary but I was wrong nonetheless. Agreement was not the propper word, as you said it was arrival.

[Sarkus]

I wouldn't consider your perspective that relevent anyway, Sarkus. Your call. I can't stop you from believing you can fly as I watch you hurl yourself from the cliff.

Yes it's called P.O.VI think you'll find it's called "contradiction". Look it up.

Such is the foundatioin of your beliefs.If you continue to provide the evidence to support the conclusion that you do not understand logical fallacies, I can do nothing but continue to follow that conclusion.

I'm afraid you're wrong. Society does determine truth.
It does now And it has before likely it will again baring your weak analogy of course.

WTF?????
:wtf:

You're going to have explain this most bizarre of comments before you are ridiculed too openly.

If society believed the earth to be the centre of the Universe... did this make it true?

Again, the evidence that you don't know what logical fallacies are mounts.


It is your misconception that this is actually an argument.It was not an argument - but a statement of fact.


Yes I know.Apology accepted.

No it's not exact it's colloquialism.You need to be more precise in arguments / debates on forums - lest others misunderstand what you say.

I accept what you're saying. I am not always precise. You however are not free of blame from interpreting either.Eh? Please clarify. How can blame be assiged to interpretation. If an interpretation is wrong then is it not for the other to correct them - but why "blame"??

I don't think I copied that from a dictionary but I was wrong nonetheless. Agreement was not the propper word, as you said it was arrival.So you still "know" God exists?

[Saquist]

Your call. I can't stop you from believing you can fly as I watch you hurl yourself from the cliff.

I think you'll find it's called "contradiction". Look it up.

Sometimes they do oppose each other.



WTF?????
:wtf:

You're going to have explain this most bizarre of comments before you are ridiculed too openly.


Simple. Your analogy is set to expose the negative qualification. That's fine. That's how a litteral truth is determined. But these are not so determinable. Societal truths tend to dictate a more intangible ideal. There are often expressed in religion folk tales, taboo and the like. But we can't merely push these off a cliff to see if these are true. That's why they are societaly truths.

The Hebrews writings in the Bible are much like this. For them these were truths, factual. It was there history and I image most culturals see it in the same light such as the Egyptians and the Babylonians


If society believed the earth to be the centre of the Universe... did this make it true?

For that society which has believed for centuries such a statement would be true. But this is like jumping off the cliff...it's testable now in the past it was not easily discern it depended on information and a set of logical reasonings. Two sets of logical reasionings can still contradict.



Apology accepted.

You need to be more precise in arguments / debates on forums - lest others misunderstand what you say.

I concur. It was my error in precision.
There are times when I regress to colloquial understandings.

Eh? Please clarify. How can blame be assiged to interpretation. If an interpretation is wrong then is it not for the other to correct them - but why "blame"??

I'm not sure what you're asking.

Interpreting in it's commonly understood premise in religion tends to be negative. Regardless of translation and actualities there is an attempt to mutate the facts to fit a modeled perception.

In Fact, interpreting done correctly infers only logical conclusions dependent on only the facts. Perception plays little to no part. However this might aswell be irrelevant since the more I thought about it the more I fould I was in error, thus saquist.

So you still "know" God exists?

"When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. "

Yes, through deduction I have arrived at the desired status of knowledge. The arrival point and the desired destination are the same location.

[sisyphus__]

"such is the foundation of your beliefs"
-Saquist

....

I could start laughing my ass off right here.
it is clear his entire foundation will fall within the next 5 years, at most.

[Sarkus]

Simple. Your analogy is set to expose the negative qualification. That's fine. That's how a litteral truth is determined. But these are not so determinable. Societal truths tend to dictate a more intangible ideal. There are often expressed in religion folk tales, taboo and the like. But we can't merely push these off a cliff to see if these are true. That's why they are societaly truths.I'll repeat it again...

:wtf:

For that society which has believed for centuries such a statement would be true. But this is like jumping off the cliff...it's testable now in the past it was not easily discern it depended on information and a set of logical reasonings. Two sets of logical reasionings can still contradict.Don't confuse "truth" with a conclusion being rational / logical.

The latter is dependent upon the evidence at hand.
The former is not.
If the evidence at hand leads rationally to an incorrect conclusion... so be it. The conclusion will probably be thought of as truth (or at least probable, depending on how aware they are of the limitations of the evidence viewed) but it isn't.
Everyone on the earth could have thought it flat, and possibly could have thought so based upon logical and rational thought from their evidence. But this still does not change the TRUTH.


"When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. "

Yes, through deduction I have arrived at the desired status of knowledge. The arrival point and the desired destination are the same location.And how, pray tell, have you managed to determine what is possible and impossible, and how have you determined that God is the conclusion of this.
Given that we are still pushing back the boundaries of our understanding of the Universe, is it not premature to conclude "God did it"?
What specifically is it that you have concluded MUST be the work of God, and that it is impossible for it to be anything else?

[sisyphus__]

Saquist:


I like you, don't think I don't.
But, here's something to consider;

Agnostic.
What is an agnostic?
An agnostic is a person who doesn't know what to believe. Because their "conclusions" (I have only one eye open and am in pain, so, excuse me for being a bit too imprecise...), so to speak, lead
them to that idea. ... It's pretty simple, I am an agnostic because I don't know what to believe. I don't know.
That is what, in my opinion an agnostic is.

I could be wrong. But I don't know if God is some connection with the world, I don't know if the historicial evidence of God is real; I can't accept most anything in the bible, because it has all been shown to be very negitevly viewed and preposterous.
It is possible for one to believe in the bible I would accept this. Good people do.

Either way you look at it though.

To me, God could also really not exist; but, I have no evidence to support my claim. I have no reasons to assert it. I could be wrong. So I assume it's the most rational "conclusion" for me.

It is good you know God exists. I wish you could show me a little more reason [incentive assertion or even a bold idea; to change my mind, even the slightest; besides cramming down my throat the fact that I may go to hell.] to believe in God, from your suggestions. I can't find the slightest idea. Nobody on this site will either. You alone may know, but you cannot and will not convince either me, Sarkus; or anyone.

It's how it goes.

Why is an atheist an atheist; I don't know!
He doesn't believe in God.
We would have to hear from an athiest though, not a sour puss run down beat in the ditch agnostic wannabe.

[one_raven]

I believe in myself, not egotistically but realistically. :itold:

Believing in your self is pretty much the definition of Egoism.
Why do people talk about it like it is a shameful thing?

[Lori_7]

i believe in law, right and wrong, truths and lies, actions and consequences, and in my experience. and i believe that my experience does not encompass all there is to know.

[Saquist]

I'll repeat it again...

:wtf:



I don't disagree. That's why the truth can be subjective. Subjective to what we know. Discovering the truth will require investigation. Truths change as we discover them. We learn over time the truth.

We could learn we're all part of neural interactive construct and thus this would all be a lie. But for right now it's truth.


And how, pray tell, have you managed to determine what is possible and impossible, and how have you determined that God is the conclusion of this.
Given that we are still pushing back the boundaries of our understanding of the Universe, is it not premature to conclude "God did it"?
What specifically is it that you have concluded MUST be the work of God, and that it is impossible for it to be anything else?

I can tell you one thing it wasn't through prayer. But the question is why do you want to know how I came to this decision? Is it moe important how you come to the decision. Whether aggree with the information and the conclusions and the facts that support them you must make your own decision. Do you hope to analyze my process and compare it to your own?

So be it.

Is is premature to make a conclusion at this juncture?
Let's see we do lack alot of knowledge in terms of the universe but we do know it has an order and structure. There is also an perceiveable determinable amount of chaos invovled. While somethings are predictable others are not.

I see the question of a designer of the universe much like the Theory of the Big and the Theory of the small. While one is predicitable the other is far from it. However it doesn't prevent us from tracking the path of comets and planets even if we can't track the exact location of quantum particles.

I've asked the question: Why isn't it all chaos or all structured? How does order beget chaos? How would choas create order?

Those were some of my early questionings to analyze the situtation.

[Saquist]

Saquist:


I like you, don't think I don't.
But, here's something to consider;

Agnostic.
What is an agnostic?
An agnostic is a person who doesn't know what to believe. Because their "conclusions" (I have only one eye open and am in pain, so, excuse me for being a bit too imprecise...), so to speak, lead
them to that idea. ... It's pretty simple, I am an agnostic because I don't know what to believe. I don't know.
That is what, in my opinion an agnostic is.

That's intresting. I beleive if I were to chose to be agnostic I would be giving up on the search. By attacking this problem as one or the other it is like a positive preasure enviroment that produces wind that chisles away at as mountain and reveal something new...whether that new be for or against what I've understood previously.

I have sensed that agnostic is like a planet without an atmosphere. The surface never changes for hundreds of years.

I would rather discover that I'm wrong than to have an asteroid shatter my world.

I could be wrong. But I don't know if God is some connection with the world, I don't know if the historicial evidence of God is real; I can't accept most anything in the bible, because it has all been shown to be very negitevly viewed and preposterous.
It is possible for one to believe in the bible I would accept this. Good people do.

I tested the information available. And that is indeed one the reason I'm here is present this information for testing aswell. I've had limited heat to really refine the end conclusion. Recently the test has been turned up and it's been very fascinating to see that there is alot of misconceptions about God as presented by science.

Either way you look at it though.

To me, God could also really not exist; but, I have no evidence to support my claim. I have no reasons to assert it. I could be wrong. So I assume it's the most rational "conclusion" for me.

God not existing has to be possibility in the search you can't rule it out and hope to just...prove on side. Science tends to do this in the reverse and it's disturbing but I've come to realize that it is not science, it is the people behind it.


It is good you know God exists. I wish you could show me a little more reason [incentive assertion or even a bold idea; to change my mind, even the slightest; besides cramming down my throat the fact that I may go to hell.] to believe in God, from your suggestions. I can't find the slightest idea. Nobody on this site will either. You alone may know, but you cannot and will not convince either me, Sarkus; or anyone.

The first thing to investigate was the truthfullness of the most contended book on the face of the planet. I needed stark comparisons to apply to the bible. I need to find truth and I need to find falsehood. I also needed to discover any contradictions in my logic and the opposing logic not to mention reasoning on both sides.

My chosen method of cross examining this information was that of Justice based system. All evidence had to have a relation to the subject, all evidence to be eliminated had to be determined as prejudicial or irrelevant. The bible went through that test.

Because the bible had some very fantastic events involved I had to consider it's truthfullness. That required a stark comparison of the more relatable information.

Then I allowed it to lock horns with science directly both on it's terms and sciences' terms. It revealed surface contention. That required deeper inestigation. It was often an issue of precision or as we determined on this thread colloquialism that occurs in culture not to mention metaphors and grammar. Science doesn't really recognize these and I realize this was the source of the contention between them. I found precedent, in historical statements and actual use of these social alterations.

One such example was the contention between science and the bible on the issue of the creation of the Earth. I sensed this had to approached first. Not only did I find precedent I found others that precieved the same logic.

When this started to unravel the Bible gained a reputation for being correct.

[Myles]

Saquist,

What does it mean to say that "the truth is subjective to what we know ?

" Truths change as we discover them ". They do not; it's our understanding that changes

"The Theory of The Big and the Theory of the small ". In my opinion. someone who shows a complete lack of understanding of the scientifiv method. is hardly qualified to comment om QM. I have the impression that you have picked up a few buzz words and are using them without understanding the import of what you are saying. Who says that the exact location of quantum particles cannot be known ? Do you favour the Copenhagen interpretation or some other one, and why ? It's ironic that having deprecated science in many of your posts you are now invoking a scientific theory to support your position.

" How does order beget chaos ? " There's a straightforward answer to that but it will do you good to find out for yourself. " Beget" is not the most felicitous way of of describing what is happening.

If god created the universe, which contains order and chaos , why do you think he did so. Is it possible that he was incapable of doing better , or perhaps he is just a whimsical character. Doesn't sound too clever to me.

And how you arrive at a decision that god exists based on the premises you put forward is very difficult to understand. Would you care to clarify your line of reasoning ?


Lastly, it's commomly accepted that if one quotes another, credit should be given to the originator. You owe it to Conan Doyle/ Sherlock Holmes to credit him with the quotation you used in a previous post

[Sarkus]

I can tell you one thing it wasn't through prayer.Ok.
But the question is why do you want to know how I came to this decision?Because it might help in expanding my knowledge base.
Because I am interested in what persuades anyone to believe (intellectual curiosity in "the enemy" so to speak).
Because I want to see if you might have erred in the rationality of your thought processes, or if indeed you have some new evidence that I can build into my own framework of understanding.

Is it moe important how you come to the decision.Of course it is. But I can only work with information I have.
And if someone has reached a different conclusion then either one of us is irrational or we differ in our experience and information. And if we can bridge that difference through sharing experiences then we can reach a common understanding.

Whether aggree with the information and the conclusions and the facts that support them you must make your own decision.I am aware of that.
Do you hope to analyze my process and compare it to your own?Yes. I try to do this whenever I have opposing views. It is the only way to proceed unless you desire permanent deadlock. It might be that sharing / analysing does not breach the deadlock, but even then it will give both sides a better understanding of why the deadlock is there.

Does that disturb you? Frighten you? Interest you?

So be it.

Is is premature to make a conclusion at this juncture?
Let's see we do lack alot of knowledge in terms of the universe but we do know it has an order and structure.Define "order" and "structure".
We clearly use language differently so we would need to be clear on such fundamental words.

There is also an perceiveable determinable amount of chaos invovled. While somethings are predictable others are not.Are you confusing chaos with randomness and / or uncertainty?

I see the question of a designer of the universe much like the Theory of the Big and the Theory of the small. While one is predicitable the other is far from it. However it doesn't prevent us from tracking the path of comets and planets even if we can't track the exact location of quantum particles.

I've asked the question: Why isn't it all chaos or all structured? How does order beget chaos? How would choas create order?

Those were some of my early questionings to analyze the situtation.So rather than ask "why?", you seem content on saying "God did it"?
If not, please be more precise.
Why are you not content to say "We do not know," but rather wish all questions to have an answer, even if that answer might be ultimately meaningless and merely pushing the question back a level?

[Saquist]

Ok.
Because it might help in expanding my knowledge base.
Because I am interested in what persuades anyone to believe (intellectual curiosity in "the enemy" so to speak).
Because I want to see if you might have erred in the rationality of your thought processes, or if indeed you have some new evidence that I can build into my own framework of understanding.

Of course it is. But I can only work with information I have.
And if someone has reached a different conclusion then either one of us is irrational or we differ in our experience and information. And if we can bridge that difference through sharing experiences then we can reach a common understanding.

And it is your intention to do so on this thread in which we're speaking of belief? You do realize that my intial statement was only directed to the point of the thread? It's ideology which I found flawed.


Does that disturb you? Frighten you? Interest you?

I find it revealing...and Fascinating.


Define "order" and "structure".
We clearly use language differently so we would need to be clear on such fundamental words.


The Free Dictionary.
Order: A condition of logical or comprehensible arrangement..

Structure: 1. Something made up of a number of parts that are held or put together in a particular way: hierarchical social structure.

Are you confusing chaos with randomness and / or uncertainty?.

It depends on the enviroment. Chaos is disorder. Randomness is unpredictability. I meant disorder. As in the disorder in the magnetic field lines of the sun caused by the varing surface speeds.




So rather than ask "why?", you seem content on saying "God did it"?
If not, please be more precise.
Why are you not content to say "We do not know," but rather wish all questions to have an answer, even if that answer might be ultimately meaningless and merely pushing the question back a level?

You Quoted Saquist. What did Saquist say?

[sisyphus__]

ok

Ok, Good post.

I admit, there is a lot to it.

Thus, "agnostic."

Faith I suppose is a "rational alternative?"

:bawl:

[Vendrell]

Agnostic, with Christian sympathies. I dated a christian girl who was very strong in her faith, was selfless, and was one of the kindest, most genuine people I had ever met, and it gave me a generally favorable view of day-to-day Christianity practiced by open minded, intelligent individuals. We only broke up because of college, but I never really told her that I was agnostic (although it is a more recent development).

Its more organized religion that I am against, which proclaims to have some sort of ultimate truth or monopoly on truth. I tend to believe that the possibility that a higher power, a "God" exists, is certainly feasible, and see it as pointless to claim that God does not exist, especially if the universe is indeed an open universe. I think religion gets too much criticism for the problems it causes, as any human institution with alot of conviction behind it will have its great upside and its terrible downfalls.

[Myles]

[QUOTE=Saquist;1749310]And it is your intention to do so on this thread in which we're speaking of belief? You do realize that my intial statement was only directed to the point of the thread? It's ideology which I found flawed.




I find it revealing...and Fascinating.





The Free Dictionary.
Order: A condition of logical or comprehensible arrangement..

Structure: 1. Something made up of a number of parts that are held or put together in a particular way: hierarchical social structure.

.

It depends on the enviroment. Chaos is disorder. Randomness is unpredictability. I meant disorder. As in the disorder in the magnetic field lines of the sun caused by the varing surface speeds.





You Quoted Saquist. What did Saquist say ?

So you're a sun worshipper. MW will be pleased she has made another convert

[Saquist]

Ok, Good post.

I admit, there is a lot to it.

Thus, "agnostic."

Faith I suppose is a "rational alternative?"

:bawl:

I find the rational alternative to be anything that draws logic and reason.
I think the answer is fullfilling only when you're looking for faith on the right reasons.

For instance...it's not logical to proceed according to traditions. Logical means asking why. Those that are willing to ask these question also have to willing to search for an honest answer. But nothing ever got done from walking away from these questions.