The Virgin Mary?

[battig1370]

Mary discovered that she was pregnant in a culture where she could be stoned to death. It is written that she said, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?" > Luke 1:34

The Mary story puzzled me ever since I was young. This story in the gospel according to Matthew says "that which is conceived in Mary is of the Holy Spirit" > Matt. 1:20

How can this be? My answer may make me look foolish and cause Christians to hate me. But first I would appreciate your imput.

[Pandaemoni]

Mary discovered that she was pregnant in a culture where she could be stoned to death. It is written that she said, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?" > Luke 1:34

The Mary story puzzled me ever since I was young. This story in the gospel according to Matthew says "that which is conceived in Mary is of the Holy Spirit" > Matt. 1:20

How can this be? My answer may make me look foolish and cause Christians to hate me. But first I would appreciate your imput.

The most likely rationalistic explanation, it seems to me, is that the whole virgin birth story was made up, after the fact, based on Isaiah 7:14, sometimes interpretated as:

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign: Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel

Other times, skeptics point out that the word translated as "virgin" in the Hebrew was "Almah", which was then translated into the Greek "parthenos," and parthenos does tend to suggest "virgin." The problem in the skeptics view is that "almah" does not mean virgin, but rather "adolescent girl" (whether or not she's a virgin). Hebrew had a word for virgin, and could have used that instead.

This interpretation suggests a that "Matthew" was not the apostle (who was Jewish) but rather a native Greek speaker from the same region.

Also problematic, most Jewish biblical scholars believe that the line from isaiah had nothing to do with the messiah. It might have been nonetheless convenient to pull it out and use it, though, because many contemporary religions had virgin born deities (Adonis and Mithra, in particular, and in some versions ofthe stories Dionysus and Zoroaster). It highlighted his special nature and was a good marketing tool.

[SkinWalker]

Clearly, if Mary really existed and the myth is truly based at least loosely on actual events, she had sex. Either she was raped or she did so willingly. Either with her husband or with someone else. If her husband wasn't the father, then Jesus was a bastard.

The rational explanation beats the supernatural one that she was raped by a deity, but deities raping or having consensual intercourse with mortal women is an archetype that appears in various cultures, particularly the ancient Greek and in Mesopotamian cultures.

It's more likely that the "virgin" Mary myth was based on an older, but similar, tale of oral or written oral origin.

[Spectrum]

Mary could have been raped and so denied the act...

[cosmictraveler]

Incest.

[joepistole]

My thoughts is that is was part of the helenization of the religion under Paul. It would have made the young religion much more apealing to the Romans and Greeks.

[blobrana]

Hum,
i seem to recall that it was a miss-translation. The word for `virgin` was very similar to the word for `young maid`.
But interestingly the islamic version of the story also incorporates the same mistake.

To recap: Mary was a young maid, (and young maids were usually Virgins - but obviously not in this case)

[Medicine*Woman]

Hum,
i seem to recall that it was a miss-translation. The word for `virgin` was very similar to the word for `young maid`.
But interestingly the islamic version of the story also incorporates the same mistake.

To recap: Mary was a young maid, (and young maids were usually Virgins - but obviously not in this case)
*************
M*W: A "virgin" was a young girl whether she was married or not. It didn't refer to her sexual activity. It referred to her youth.

[joepistole]

The Catholic Church also has a something called a perpetual virgin which is applied to Nuns after being married and or bearing children. So even if they are not really virgins they can through priestly action, become a perpetual virgin.

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512sbs.asp

[spidergoat]

While there are examples of virgin birth in nature, I think in Mary's case, the scribes who later told the story were trying to make Jesus into the fufillment of ancient prophecies, the messiah. Didn't Jesus have a father? Joseph? Maybe the fertilization happened in an unexpected or rare way, by accident, or she was raped and didn't want that shame. Who knows.

[blobrana]

almah = young woman
elem = young man

The word almah does not certainly mean "virgin"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almah

[battig1370]

My answer to the virgin Mary story does not conform to the traditional religious doctrine. The christian belief is that Mary did not get pregnant from a man, because it is written, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?" > Luke 1:34

The christian belief is that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary without her consent which can be considered as a violation. If this was the way it happened this Spirit was not Holy. But this is not the way it happen.

What happened is that a man found Mary in a deep sleep and he gently impregnated her without her having any knowledge of this occurrence.

Later, I can explain that baby Jesus had a bio-father to those that are not blind. I think most Christian will be blind.

[SkinWalker]

Unless you have some DNA evidence or archaeological evidence not previously known to researchers, the best you'll be able to do is offer an alternate speculation of an already mythical story.

This is a science forum, so the serious and rational members here would more appreciate rational and scientific explanations that are supported by science. If you have those, we're all ears. Otherwise, you may find few will accept seriously what you have to say.

[battig1370]

you may find few will accept seriously what you have to say.

As you already know there is no DNA evidence, but man has been given the ability to think and reason, but religiosity has always been used to prevent that given ability to think and reason.

With the virgin Mary story that ability to think and reason has not surfaced much.

[Donnal]

nah she was knocked up by man and they said those things cause maybe its how they were those days in that speaking dialect thingy
and ran for the lives cause of the first borne being killed issues
and if they were pregnant in that place then thats muslim territory isnt it being stoned all that

[spidergoat]

No, Judea wasn't Muslim territory, there were no Muslims then.

[battig1370]

Lets examine the christian belief that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary without her consent. The reason I say, "without her consent" is that it is written, "How can this be?"

What is the definition of being Holy whether it's atributed to man or spirit?

Would a Holy Man or a Holy Spirit impregnate Mary without her consent?

[joepistole]

nah she was knocked up by man and they said those things cause maybe its how they were those days in that speaking dialect thingy
and ran for the lives cause of the first borne being killed issues
and if they were pregnant in that place then thats muslim territory isnt it being stoned all that

Donnal, Mohammed did not have his vists with the Angels until around 600 AD. So Islam did not exist at this time in history. Islam claims to be the fulfillment of Judiasm and Christianity. It builds on both traditions.

[Donnal]

dunno bout that
i do kow mary is lovely in every way shes a monument of history and belief

[battig1370]

Lets examine the christian belief that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary without her consent. The reason I say, "without her consent" is that it is written, "How can this be?"

What is the definition of being Holy whether it's attributed to man or spirit?

Would a Holy Man or a Holy Spirit impregnate Mary without her consent?

Holiness does violate its own rules and in knowing this, the Spirit or the Man that impregnated Mary without her consent is in violation of any form of holiness. My conclusion is that Mary was not impregnated by the Holy Spirit or a Holy Man. Also I do not accept that Mary was impregnated by another kind of Spirit, but it's very understandable a man took advantage of Mary without her having any knowledge what has occurred. Would a Christian men understand definition of being Holy?

It is written in the beginning of 'The Gospel According to Matthew', "The book of the genealogy of Jesus, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:" ------- "And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary of whom was born Jesus" As written, the genealogy (DNA) of Jesus is also through Joseph back to Abraham.

Attention Christians; in Matt. 3:16 -17, Mark 1:10 -11, Luke 3:22, and John 1:29 - 34 the Holy Spirit came down to be united with Jesus, but also it writes that Mary was found with child of the Holy Spirit. --- for that which conceived in Mary is of the Holy Spirit. > Matt 1:18 + 20 The Holy Spirit did not become united with Jesus until He had been baptized at the Jordan river.

Written in Matt. 3:16 -17, Mark 1:10 -11, Luke 3:22, and John 1:29 - 34, Jesus saw the Spirit of God which is the Holy Spirit descending like a dove upon Him. A voice came from heaven which said, "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased." It was at this time that the Holy Spirit came down to be united with Jesus. Because of this event Jesus was called the Son of God, the Lamb of God, the Son of Man, the Anointed One, and the Christ which means the Messiah. This is when "the Word became flesh/human and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father." > John 1:1-14

It is written that Jesus said; "Love your enemies ------- Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect. > Matt. 5:43 - 48, Luke 6:27 - 37. Read it again. > "Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect." Jesus would not have said this if Mary's egg was not penetrated by a male sperm from a man.

Also it is written in Rev. 3:21 that someone will overcome as Jesus overcame. > "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on my throne, as I also overcame ("I have overcome the world" > John 16:33) and sat down with My Father on his throne." The only way this can true is that both Jesus and him who overcomes as Jesus also overcame have a biological/natural father and mother.


Can anyone accept that Jesus had a biological/natural father and mother from what is written here?

[nietzschefan]

Clearly, if Mary really existed and the myth is truly based at least loosely on actual events, she had sex. Either she was raped or she did so willingly. Either with her husband or with someone else. If her husband wasn't the father, then Jesus was a bastard.

The rational explanation beats the supernatural one that she was raped by a deity, but deities raping or having consensual intercourse with mortal women is an archetype that appears in various cultures, particularly the ancient Greek and in Mesopotamian cultures.

It's more likely that the "virgin" Mary myth was based on an older, but similar, tale of oral or written oral origin.

Maybe it was an Alien with a long thin turkey baster.

[battig1370]

If Jesus was born from Mary half God and half man, He wouldn't says things like, "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that world may believe that You sent Me." > John 17:20-21

OR; "To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on my throne, as I also overcame ("I have overcome the world" > John 16:33) and sat down with My Father on his throne." > Rev. 3:21

If Jesus was born from Mary half God and half man, it would be like Superman saying, "To him who jumps as high as I have jumped I will grant him to sit with Me on my throne, as I am sat down with My Father on his throne."

[Leo Volont]

Mary discovered that she was pregnant in a culture where she could be stoned to death. It is written that she said, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?" > Luke 1:34

The Mary story puzzled me ever since I was young. This story in the gospel according to Matthew says "that which is conceived in Mary is of the Holy Spirit" > Matt. 1:20

How can this be? My answer may make me look foolish and cause Christians to hate me. But first I would appreciate your imput.

Well, Mary was not going to be stoned to death.

Remember, she was of the House of David. All those movies that would like us to believe that Mary was some poor girl... well, its just not true. How poor could the family be if 7 generations before their Family had been the Royal family of Judah?

the Rich never have to worry about the Laws which are mostly considered as ordinances for the control of the Poor.

Besides, these details were considered. EVERYBODY knew that young Mary had to soon be married.

Indeed, Catholicism's foremost seer and visionary Anne Catherine Emmerich draws quite a picture of it. The Priests, who knew all about it, summoned all of the eligable bachalors of the extented House of David (Jesus would have the House of David on both sides of his little Family). Joseph who was an old confirmed bachelor in his forties did not think the application applied to those who were not in the least bit interested in marrying a 14 year old girl, and so he did not show up. Well, the Priests gave each man a walking stick, and the Winners stick was to come alive with leaves and such, in accordance with an old oral prophecy from Elijah himself, from 7 generation before. Nothing happened. And so the priests went over their invitation list and issued a warrant for Old Joseph, to drag him there in chains if necessary. When he arrived he walked through the door and his old beat up cane suddenly blossomed forth in huge white Lillies of the Valley, the symbol for Virginity. Anne Catherine Emmerich tells us that little Mary asked for one of the flowers and had it pressed and kept it with the rest of her things for the remainder of her life.

[battig1370]

It is written in the beginning of 'The Gospel According to Matthew', "The book of the genealogy of Jesus, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham:" ------- "And Jacob begot Joseph the husband of Mary of whom was born Jesus"

As written, the genealogy (DNA) of Jesus is through Joseph back to Abraham.


Leo!, --- why can you not accept that Jesus was born from the union of man and woman?