Pride is a sin, and God is full of it!

[QuestionEverything]

Job 1:8-12 (King James Version)

8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
God is bragging about his favorite servant Job, isn't pride a sin? :scratchin:

9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Satan baits God to tempt him and see if he can get permission to mess with Job. Whatever happened to "Tempt not the lord thy God"? Oh that's right it's Satan we're talking about here! One gets the idea that this tactic has worked for Satan in the past, boy that God is a real sucker! :mufc:

12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
God fails this test of temptation and says (I'm paraphrasing here), "Alright it's a bet! But don't kill him, if you kill him he can't live to still prove you wrong by not turning on me!" And thus the tragedy begins. Yet God who is omniscient already knew Job would not turn against God so why bother persecuting Job? To prove to Satan what God already knows, that's why. Confirmation of God's pride AND insecurity! :D

So here we learn that not only is God full of pride, but his insecurity makes him easily manipulated by his enemies. Satan also seems intellectually superior to God in this text, how can that be?

[draqon]

pride is not a sin

[QuestionEverything]

pride is not a sin
Proverbs 8:13 (King James Version)
13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.


Proverbs 16:18 (King James Version)
18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.


Job 33:16-18 (King James Version)
16 Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,
17 That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man.
18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.


2 Chronicles 32:26 (King James Version)
26 Notwithstanding Hezekiah humbled himself for the pride of his heart, both he and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the wrath of the LORD came not upon them in the days of Hezekiah.


Leviticus 26:18-20 (King James Version)
18 And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
19 And I will break the pride of your power; and I will make your heaven as iron, and your earth as brass:
20 And your strength shall be spent in vain: for your land shall not yield her increase, neither shall the trees of the land yield their fruits.


Hmm... Seems the Bible would tend to disagree with you.

[Incriminating Convoy]

You are absolutely right QE. Growing up I was taught that pride was a sin because the Bible says so. lol, we as Americans are sinners indeed.

[QuestionEverything]

You are absolutely right QE. Growing up I was taught that pride was a sin because the Bible says so. lol, we as Americans are sinners indeed.
Apparently so is God!

You know what I say, "Don't hate the sinner, hate the sin!" :D

[lightgigantic]

vaguely reminiscent of (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro) "Is the pious loved by the gods because it is pious, or is it pious because it is loved by the gods"

[Incriminating Convoy]

Apparently so is God!

You know what I say, "Don't hate the sinner, hate the sin!" :D

Isn't hate considered a sin?

[Adstar]

Pride is only sin for man. Because man being imperfect should not be proud. God however is perfect. So He can be as proud as He likes.

The Laws God gives to His creation where designed with His creation in Mind. It is like designing a building for the environment you place it in.

You can make a Law about the building codes for buildings built in an earthquake zone and another code for buildings built outside an earthquake zone.

Secondly God allows satan to act upon Job the same way He allows satan to act upon the world. To allow satan to reveal himself to all the heavenly host and to humanity. In the same way God also acts upon the world to reveal himself to all.

All the world is a stage and we are all playing the parts our wills desire us to play.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[SnakeLord]

Pride is only sin for man. Because man being imperfect should not be proud. God however is perfect. So He can be as proud as He likes.


Lol religious people are so stupid. They excuse their god for the very things they find the most negative in everyone else... pride, murder, jealousy etc. The reason we have these things is clearly because we were made in his image.

[C1ay]

God however is perfect. So He can be as proud as He likes.

Perfect? Why does the world have hideous birth defects, hideous diseases and hideous people?

[Enmos]

God comes off as a regular smartypants lol

[QuestionEverything]

Pride is only sin for man. Because man being imperfect should not be proud. God however is perfect. So He can be as proud as He likes.

The Laws God gives to His creation where designed with His creation in Mind. It is like designing a building for the environment you place it in.

You can make a Law about the building codes for buildings built in an earthquake zone and another code for buildings built outside an earthquake zone.

Secondly God allows satan to act upon Job the same way He allows satan to act upon the world. To allow satan to reveal himself to all the heavenly host and to humanity. In the same way God also acts upon the world to reveal himself to all.

All the world is a stage and we are all playing the parts our wills desire us to play.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Put yourself in Job's shoes and see how much you agree with your god's pride and insecurity then!

[QuestionEverything]

Lol religious people are so stupid. They excuse their god for the very things they find the most negative in everyone else... pride, murder, jealousy etc. The reason we have these things is clearly because we were made in his image.

Correction, we made him in OUR IMAGE. That is why he has those qualities.

[visceral_instinct]

Job 1:8-12 (King James Version)

8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
God is bragging about his favorite servant Job, isn't pride a sin? :scratchin:

9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Satan baits God to tempt him and see if he can get permission to mess with Job. Whatever happened to "Tempt not the lord thy God"? Oh that's right it's Satan we're talking about here! One gets the idea that this tactic has worked for Satan in the past, boy that God is a real sucker! :mufc:

12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
God fails this test of temptation and says (I'm paraphrasing here), "Alright it's a bet! But don't kill him, if you kill him he can't live to still prove you wrong by not turning on me!" And thus the tragedy begins. Yet God who is omniscient already knew Job would not turn against God so why bother persecuting Job? To prove to Satan what God already knows, that's why. Confirmation of God's pride AND insecurity! :D

So here we learn that not only is God full of pride, but his insecurity makes him easily manipulated by his enemies. Satan also seems intellectually superior to God in this text, how can that be?

Yup. We all know Christianity is infested with hypocrisy.

[[a-5]]

And people wonder why I love being an agnostic.

[QuestionEverything]

;1704030']And people wonder why I love being an agnostic.

Well it certainly makes you immune to these arguments doesn't it?! :)

[lightgigantic]

Perfect? Why does the world have hideous birth defects, hideous diseases and hideous people?
number one (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=71803)

[Enmos]

;1704030']And people wonder why I love being an agnostic.

I would think an agnostic runs the risk of being pulled either way..

[lightgigantic]

Put yourself in Job's shoes and see how much you agree with your god's pride and insecurity then!
number three (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=71803)

[Enmos]

number three (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=71803)

What happened to number 2 ? :confused:

[lightgigantic]

What happened to number 2 ? :confused:

offer a suggestion that a god who maintains a world with strict laws is not perfect and I can happily submit it

:D

[Enmos]

offer a suggestion that a god who maintains a world with strict laws is not perfect and I can happily submit it

:D

I should make up a reason ?

[lightgigantic]

I should make up a reason ?

it hasn't stopped anyone in the past
:D

[SnakeLord]

offer a suggestion that a god who maintains a world with strict laws is not perfect and I can happily submit it


Simply done...

A 'perfect' entity would lack nothing and therefore would not have any needs or wants and as such would not go about creating vastly inferior creatures to serve and worship it.

[lightgigantic]

Simply done...

A 'perfect' entity would lack nothing and therefore would not have any needs or wants and as such would not go about creating vastly inferior creatures to serve and worship it.
number two (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=71803)

(all we need now is an argument that an infallible god would not have recourse to providing irregularities within nature - like rain for eg - and we will have a complete picture)

[John99]

He meant the unreasonable type.

Definitions of pride:

* a feeling of self-respect and personal worth
GOOD* satisfaction with your (or another's) achievements; "he takes pride in his son's success"
* the trait of being spurred on by a dislike of falling below your standards
* a group of lions
BAAAAAAAD* unreasonable and inordinate self-esteem (personified as one of the deadly sins)
* be proud of; "He prides himself on making it into law school"

[SnakeLord]

number two

(all we need now is an argument that an infallible god would not have recourse to providing irregularities within nature - like rain for eg - and we will have a complete picture)

Unsurprisngly enough your post is irrelevant to what I said. What I mentioned was that a 'perfect' entity would never create anything to worship it because it has no need to, no wants.. because it lacks nothing. It would be content in it's own realm of nothingness. The minute it creates, it's not perfect.. it is a being that succumbs to emotional needs.

[lightgigantic]

Unsurprisngly enough your post is irrelevant to what I said. What I mentioned was that a 'perfect' entity would never create anything to worship it because it has no need to, no wants.. because it lacks nothing. It would be content in it's own realm of nothingness. The minute it creates, it's not perfect.. it is a being that succumbs to emotional needs.
assuming you are willing to progress with the notion that god could theoretically exist, why would god be residing in nothingness?

[SnakeLord]

assuming you are willing to progress with the notion that god could theoretically exist, why would god be residing in nothingness?

Alas this isn't relevant. Here it is again:

An entity that is perfect would lack nothing and as such would have no wants or needs. It would not, by the very fact of its perfection, create other beings to serve and worship it.

[QuestionEverything]

Alas this isn't relevant. Here it is again:

An entity that is perfect would lack nothing and as such would have no wants or needs. It would not, by the very fact of its perfection, create other beings to serve and worship it.

I'll answer this one... It would create beings to worship it because it is self centered, insecure, and full of pride. But since the deity was created by men with all those qualities, why would that be surprising? :cool:

[lightgigantic]

Alas this isn't relevant. Here it is again:

An entity that is perfect would lack nothing and as such would have no wants or needs. It would not, by the very fact of its perfection, create other beings to serve and worship it.
hence two suggestions

god is not existing in a state of nothingness (ie god has eternal contingent potencies, of which the living entity is one)
god does not benefit from our service - rather we do

[Orleander]

pride isn't a sin and god isn't prideful. When they talk about pride (a family of lions) they are talking about lions and when they talk about lions, they are talking about Leo, the astrological sign. Its part of the allegory..DUH!!!!

I can't believe you all can't see it!?

[flameofanor5]

He isn't really being prideful. Could you also not use the KJV? It's confusing, I barely get what's being said.

[Adstar]

Perfect? Why does the world have hideous birth defects, hideous diseases and hideous people?

Because it is not perfect. Of course.

It was once Good but when mankind joined satan in rebellion it was sabotaged. One day the Good World will be renewed. :)


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Adstar]

Well it certainly makes you immune to these arguments doesn't it?! :)

All your arguments have got nothing to do with the existence or otherwise of God. All they reveal is your hate for His will.

The argument: "I do not like God therefore God does not exist" has no bearing on the matter.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[SkinWalker]

Moderator's Note: I've deleted nearly a page full of posts that were off-topic or flaming. Please do not flame or respond to flames. If I've given you a warning, consider it official

[SnakeLord]

hence two suggestions
god is not existing in a state of nothingness (ie god has eternal contingent potencies, of which the living entity is one)
god does not benefit from our service - rather we do

1) Whether god lives in nothingness or in a three bedroom town house isn't really the issue other than to state a perfect being that lacks nothing would be content without the need to create anything.

2) Whether you benefit from bowing to sky fairies or not is not the issue. That you were created is.

[lightgigantic]

1) Whether god lives in nothingness or in a three bedroom town house isn't really the issue other than to state a perfect being that lacks nothing would be content without the need to create anything.
a contingent eternal potency wouldn't be a creation

2) Whether you benefit from bowing to sky fairies or not is not the issue. That you were created is.

ditto above

[SnakeLord]

a contingent eternal potency wouldn't be a creation

I see. Well, maybe not.. So you're saying we weren't created but that... we're god? we're like gods leg or something, something that exists regardless to him?

[Enmos]

god does not benefit from our service - rather we do
[/LIST]

Whats the point ? Why create beings so that they can benefit from serving their creator ? A non-existing being has no need to worship.. why don't just leave it that way ?

Edit: It's like creating a problem to be able to solve it.. lol :shrug:

[lightgigantic]

I see. Well, maybe not.. So you're saying we weren't created but that... we're god?
no
a contingent potency
just like smoke is a contingent potency of fire

we're like gods leg or something, something that exists regardless to him?
contingent is not "regardless"

[lightgigantic]

Whats the point ? Why create beings so that they can benefit from serving their creator ? A non-existing being has no need to worship.. why don't just leave it that way ?
you would rather cease to exist?
:confused:

Edit: It's like creating a problem to be able to solve it.. lol :shrug:
the only problem is that we have decided to ignore god- once again, that's not god's problem - it's ours

[Enmos]

you would rather cease to exist?
:confused:


the only problem is that we have decided to ignore god- once again, that's not god's problem - it's ours

You are dodging.. :rolleyes:

[lightgigantic]

You are dodging.. :rolleyes:

not at all

most people (even atheists) value their existence

how would you feel about the prospects of ceasing to exist?

and furthermore whatever difficulty we have at the moment is our own creation - we weren't forced to turn away from god, rather we made the decision to turn that way.

[Enmos]

not at all

most people (even atheists) value their existence

how would you feel about the prospects of ceasing to exist?

and furthermore whatever difficulty we have at the moment is our own creation - we weren't forced to turn away from god, rather we made the decision to turn that way.

You are still avoiding my original question.
What is the point in creating someone for the sole purpose of them being able to get the benefits of serving their creator ?

To cease to exist you must first exist, don't you agree ?
I can assure you that nobody would feel bad for never existing.

[John99]

Alas this isn't relevant. Here it is again:

An entity that is perfect would lack nothing and as such would have no wants or needs. It would not, by the very fact of its perfection, create other beings to serve and worship it.

Clearly, the OP did not read the definition of pride and does not seem to allow or understand the concept of context- the OP has been proven wrong. So any posts will be considered off-topic and susceptible to cherry picking - Deletion. The original poster went as far as to quote Thomas Paine, obviously not realizing that HE was certainly no Atheist and did have serious emotional problems.

To answer SnekeLords query:

The 'other beings' were not created for the purpose of worshiping or serving GOD. Just as a frog was not created for this purpose or for that matter neither was a blade of grass. Curse the human brain - Fine, no problem.

[SnakeLord]

a contingent potency
just like smoke is a contingent potency of fire

So we are an unavoidable aspect of gods existence? This god has no choice but for us to exist just like fire has no choice for smoke to come from it? So.. he didn't create us, we are ultimately like a spare leg? Humans have existed forever?

The 'other beings' were not created for the purpose of worshiping or serving GOD.

I see. So why were they?

Purely out of interest why did you write god in caps? Is it important to do so, does god get upset if you don't use capitals? Just curious.

[lightgigantic]

You are still avoiding my original question.
What is the point in creating someone for the sole purpose of them being able to get the benefits of serving their creator ?
sometimes the nature of being in existence is described as the causeless mercy of god - meaning that we didn't do anything to warrant such a state, but it is bestowed by magnanimity.
Existence has benefits with or without the service of god - service to god simple establishes a grander state of existence (namely not being bewildered by establishing eternal values on transient objects)

To cease to exist you must first exist, don't you agree ?
I can assure you that nobody would feel bad for never existing.
but having existed, we can quite easily discern the value of existing, even if our existence is highly saturated with illusory pursuits

[lightgigantic]

So we are an unavoidable aspect of gods existence?
in one sense yes - omnipotency means all potencies must be exhibited, even the weaker potencies

This god has no choice but for us to exist just like fire has no choice for smoke to come from it?
kind of like a triangle has no choice but to have three sides
(meaning the definition of god as being omnipotent requires that we exist)

So.. he didn't create us, we are ultimately like a spare leg? Humans have existed forever?
the living entity is eternal - sometimes in illusion and sometimes in a liberated state according to their use of free will
God remains unencumbered, regardless how we choose to utilize our free will
We however, don't share that capacity of being absolutely independent

[SnakeLord]

(meaning the definition of god as being omnipotent requires that we exist)


No it doesn't. Omnipotence means that a god would have the power to create whatever it wanted to. Of course when it wants it clearly lacks...

the living entity is eternal - sometimes in illusion and sometimes in a liberated state according to their use of free will
God remains unencumbered

So we are separate entities, eternal entities and weren't created.. Interesting.

[lightgigantic]

No it doesn't.
I beg to differ. Omnipotency means all potencies, and not just the powerful ones (and as a further point, omnipotency also means that one can achieve with one potency what can ordinarily only be achieved with a different potency)



So we are separate entities, eternal entities and weren't created.. Interesting.
don't see why it is so difficult to understand
smoke is also separate from fire, and if the fire didn't have a creator, the smoke would also be eternal.
Of course the smoke is contingent on the fire and has no scope for existence independent from the fire

[SnakeLord]

I beg to differ.

Dictionary does not. Hmm, you or the given definition... Hmmm..

don't see why it is so difficult to understand

What? I got it, I simply repeated what you have said thus far. We were not created, we are eternal and we're also distinctly separate from this god entity. Of course from the perspective of analogy, smoke is created by the fire. Of course fire has no choice, so you're saying god has no choice.

[lightgigantic]

What? I got it, I simply repeated what you have said thus far. We were not created, we are eternal and we're also distinctly separate from this god entity. Of course from the perspective of analogy, smoke is created by the fire. Of course fire has no choice, so you're saying god has no choice.
my first post - (ie god has eternal contingent potencies, of which the living entity is one)
my second post - a contingent eternal potency wouldn't be a creation

my third post - no
a contingent potency
just like smoke is a contingent potency of fire
my sixth post - Of course the smoke is contingent on the fire and has no scope for existence independent from the fire

in the course of your "just repeating" it appears you are neglecting a particular key word

;)

[SnakeLord]

in the course of your "just repeating" it appears you are neglecting a particular key word


A word you undoubtedly have your own obscure little definition for. Give me a tick or a cross for the following:

1) We are not created.

(If so the fire analogy does not work, the fire creates the smoke. It doesn't have a choice in doing so but it certainly creates it).

2) We are eternal.

3) We are separate from this god entity.

Right/wrong?

smoke is a contingent potency of fire


The fire represents god right? And the smoke represents humans right? What your analogy says therefore is that god has no choice with regards to our existence. He is ultimately impotent.

Interesting.

[lightgigantic]

A word you undoubtedly have your own obscure little definition for.
whatever it may be, the fact that I mention it a dozen times and you fail to include it in your "repeating" shows you also have a latent talent for obscuring things ....

Give me a tick or a cross for the following:

1) We are not created.

(If so the fire analogy does not work, the fire creates the smoke. It doesn't have a choice in doing so but it certainly creates it).
depends what you mean by created - would you be comfortable talking about the creation of something that is eternal?
(hence my suggestion of "contingent")

2) We are eternal.
yes

3) We are separate from this god entity.
yes, but we have no scope for independence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achintya_Bheda_Abheda)- just like smoke is separate from fire, but has no scope of existing without fire

The fire represents god right?
as analogy, yes

And the smoke represents humans right?
as analogy, yes

What your analogy says therefore is that god has no choice with regards to our existence. He is ultimately impotent.

it's not clear why manifesting eternal separated parts and parcels of consciousness (ie living entities) makes god less potent than a god that doesn't.

[Cyperium]

Job 1:8-12 (King James Version)

8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
God is bragging about his favorite servant Job, isn't pride a sin? :scratchin:

9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Satan baits God to tempt him and see if he can get permission to mess with Job. Whatever happened to "Tempt not the lord thy God"? Oh that's right it's Satan we're talking about here! One gets the idea that this tactic has worked for Satan in the past, boy that God is a real sucker! :mufc:

12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
God fails this test of temptation and says (I'm paraphrasing here), "Alright it's a bet! But don't kill him, if you kill him he can't live to still prove you wrong by not turning on me!" And thus the tragedy begins. Yet God who is omniscient already knew Job would not turn against God so why bother persecuting Job? To prove to Satan what God already knows, that's why. Confirmation of God's pride AND insecurity! :D

So here we learn that not only is God full of pride, but his insecurity makes him easily manipulated by his enemies. Satan also seems intellectually superior to God in this text, how can that be?It's better for someone else to be proud of you.

It's not a sin if God is proud, it's not a sin if you are proud of something you do either. But if it develops into a lifestyle of pride, then it may be a sin, but it is for God to judge.

You are happy before you have crossed the river.

[GeniusSage]

The Christian God is guilty of more than just pride. I'd rather worship Hitler.