View Full Version : God is a liar and I have the proof!
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 04:12 AM
Genesis 2:17 (KJV)
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 3:4-5 (KJV)
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Genesis 3:22 (KJV)
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Note how everything the serpent said turns out true, but what God said "thou shalt surely die" turns out to be false.
"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us"
ONE OF US? US? Hmm... God or gods? :scratchin:
Pretty straight forward, if you don't fool yourself into letting some scumbag pastor or priest do your thinking for you!
Arguments? Agreements? BRING IT ON!! :deal:
lightgigantic
01-07-08, 05:16 AM
generally paradoxes appear in texts of wisdom to prevent people speed reading through them
:)
generally paradoxes appear in texts of wisdom to prevent people speed reading through them
:)
Who mentioned wisdom ? So what is the ideal speed at which to read such stuff? Try telling us how you know that paradoxes are deliberately introduced.
generally paradoxes appear in texts of wisdom to prevent people speed reading through them
:)
Kind of a weak argument LOL
I have wondered about this myself.. the snake never lied, and God didn't kill them.
I have seen that passage where God said "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us", that's a new one for me :)
And yea, "one of US".. HMMM :scratchin:
Orleander
01-07-08, 06:15 AM
Its not "become one of us" as in being a god, but "become as one of us" as having their eyes open to good and evil.
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 06:19 AM
Its not "become one of us" as in being a god, but "become as one of us" as having their eyes open to good and evil.
Yes, but the operative word here is "us"! :)
Its not "become one of us" as in being a god, but "become as one of us" as having their eyes open to good and evil.
But how is that a bad thing, to know good from evil ?
Orleander
01-07-08, 06:27 AM
But how is that a bad thing, to know good from evil ?
Its not. QE says the quote makes man a god, and I say the quote means man recognized good and evil.
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 06:30 AM
Its not. QE says the quote makes man a god, and I say the quote means man recognized good and evil.
I never said that at all, you said that.
I said that the quote makes God a LIAR!!! :mufc:
I also said God refers to himself in the PLURAL form!! Think about it!
Orleander
01-07-08, 06:36 AM
he said as one of us. The angels knew about good and evil as well. They aren't considered gods.
he said as one of us. The angels knew about good and evil as well. They aren't considered gods.
You are assuming that knowing good from evil makes one as God..
Why ? Or do you mean that the author meant that they are only as God in that one respect ? Maybe the author should have been more precise in that case..
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 06:46 AM
he said as one of us. The angels knew about good and evil as well. They aren't considered gods.
You are missing the point completely. There is no reference whatsoever in this passage of the Bible to angels. God is talking with other gods. The Hebrews were henotheistic, not monotheistic as many have claimed. There are other passages of plural gods in the Old Testament. The Hebrew word "Elohim" is used as a plural form of "El" which means "lord" in Hebrew. This word "Elohim" appears in other places in the O.T. In some cases it was even mistranslated by KJV to conceal it as the singular form.
But please don't believe me, do your own research and find out for yourself. That is what I ask. If you're not willing to research it then you have no credibility to disagree. Fair enough?
Orleander
01-07-08, 06:58 AM
You are assuming that knowing good from evil makes one as God..
Why ? Or do you mean that the author meant that they are only as God in that one respect ? Maybe the author should have been more precise in that case..
and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Its didn't say they will be gods.
.....There is no reference whatsoever in this passage of the Bible to angels. God is talking with other gods. ....
But please don't believe me, do your own research and find out for yourself. That is what I ask. If you're not willing to research it then you have no credibility to disagree. Fair enough?
There is no reference to other gods either. I can say 'us' and mean women, sciforum posters, Michiganders, Americans, etc.
SnakeLord
01-07-08, 06:59 AM
Of course that very statement, (man has become like one of us knowing good and evil), completely vindicates Adam and Eve from any wrong doing whatsoever.
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 07:01 AM
Of course that very statement, (man has become like one of us knowing good and evil), completely vindicates Adam and Eve from any wrong doing whatsoever.
...and points out the fact that God is a big poopy-faced liar!! :D
SnakeLord
01-07-08, 07:02 AM
There is no reference to other gods either.
You're wrong.. Quite a few gods feature in the bible - indeed by name. To offer just a couple off the top of my head there's:
Tammuz, Baal, Lilith..
Christianity still uses names of other gods on a daily basis: sin, amen, etc.
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 07:03 AM
You're wrong.. Quite a few gods feature in the bible - indeed by name. To offer just a couple off the top of my head there's:
Tammuz, Baal, Lilith..
Christianity still uses names of other gods on a daily basis: sin, amen, etc.
Give this man a cigar! :mufc:
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 07:07 AM
I can say 'us' and mean women, sciforum posters, Michiganders, Americans, etc.
...and gods.
That is the only group God belongs in isn't it? Or is he part of a Creationist's Chess Club I'm not aware of? Hmm, I don't remember seeing a passage referencing that... :scratchin:
and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. Its didn't say they will be gods.
lol I'm not blind..
So they are not Gods, but as Gods..
What does that mean ? It means that, while they are not Gods, they have every property associated with a God.
as
–preposition
in the role, function, or status of: to act as leader.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/as
as
–adverb
to the same degree, amount, or extent; similarly; equally
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/as
There is no reference to other gods either. I can say 'us' and mean women, sciforum posters, Michiganders, Americans, etc.
"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us"
Who then ? If the unknown others are included in 'us', what else can they be than Gods buddies ? lol Who else lives in heaven or wherever He resides ? Certainly not any other regular humans..
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 07:19 AM
lol I'm not blind..
So they are not Gods, but as Gods..
What does that mean ? It means that, while they are not Gods, they have every property associated with a God.
as
–preposition
in the role, function, or status of: to act as leader.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/as
as
–adverb
to the same degree, amount, or extent; similarly; equally
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/as
"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us"
Who then ? If the unknown others are included in 'us', what else can they be than Gods buddies ? lol Who else lives in heaven or wherever He resides ? Certainly not any other regular humans..
I'm glad I don't have to break down every word of the text for everybody! :)
God did not lie. Adam and Eve did die. Before they ate the apple, they were immortal. Of course, the whole Adam and Eve story is fiction and at least the Catholic Church doesn't deny that. It's the meaning behind the story that's important. Nevertheless, Adam and Eve did die.
God did not lie. Adam and Eve did die. Before they ate the apple, they were immortal. Of course, the whole Adam and Eve story is fiction and at least the Catholic Church doesn't deny that. It's the meaning behind the story that's important. Nevertheless, Adam and Eve did die.
Even if so.. that's a good thing.
Can you imagine the mess if we wouldn't die ?
SnakeLord
01-07-08, 11:57 AM
Before they ate the apple, they were immortal
Not true. If that were true there would have been no point in the Tree of Life or god throwing a hissy fit and getting the tree of life blocked off the minute adam and eve had eaten the fruit.
Not true. If that were true there would have been no point in the Tree of Life or god throwing a hissy fit and getting the tree of life blocked off the minute adam and eve had eaten the fruit.
So he threw a hissy fit and left ?
Good riddance... lol ;)
But, if Adam and Eve were not conscious of their genitals prior to eating the apple, they wouldn't have had sex - and there would still only be two people in the Garden of Eden. What mess?
If the tree of life was the source of immortality, then Adam and Eve would still have continued to eat of it and have been de facto immortal. Your argument still fails.
But, if Adam and Eve were not conscious of their genitals prior to eating the apple, they wouldn't have had sex - and there would still only be two people in the Garden of Eden. What mess?
Who said they weren't conscious of their genitals :confused:
Did they have feeling already ? Or were they just Gods play dolls ?
They covered their genitals after eating the apple, which leads to the conclusion that they weren't conscious of the sexual function of their genitals prior to eating the apple. There is nothing in the story to indicate that Adam and Eve would have had sex if they never ate the apple.
They covered their genitals after eating the apple, which leads to the conclusion that they weren't conscious of the sexual function of their genitals prior to eating the apple. There is nothing in the story to indicate that Adam and Eve would have had sex if they never ate the apple.
There is nothing to indicate they wouldn't either.. :shrug:
What they received for eating the apple is shame, not knowledge about their genitals.. lol
Edit: Maybe that constitutes the same for you though :D ;)
SnakeLord
01-07-08, 01:20 PM
But, if Adam and Eve were not conscious of their genitals prior to eating the apple, they wouldn't have had sex - and there would still only be two people in the Garden of Eden. What mess?
So there's only two people? That would be the inevitable outcome if they hadn't have eaten from the tree of knowledge of good and evil anyway, regardless to life span. It was only upon eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, (something they were told not to do), that they became aware of their genitals. As such had Adam and Eve not eating the tree of knowledge of good and evil it would still be just those two - yes, regardless to longevity.
The [biblical] fact of the matter is that upon eating the fruit god quickly had to prevent them from eating from the tree of life so that they wouldn't get eternal life. That is a very clear indication that they didnt have eternal life.
If the tree of life was the source of immortality, then Adam and Eve would still have continued to eat of it and have been de facto immortal.
They didn't eat from it at all. Without knowledge of good and evil, they wouldn't even be able to recognise the value in eating from it to begin with.
If one claims that there was no death in the garden what exactly did the lions, tigers and tyrannosaurs eat? What about the vultures that only eat dead animal remains? That would be quite the predicament... explaining why a non-meat eater has sharp meat eating teeth.
If you have something valid to suggest that they did have eternal life then show it.
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 02:12 PM
They covered their genitals after eating the apple, which leads to the conclusion that they weren't conscious of the sexual function of their genitals prior to eating the apple. There is nothing in the story to indicate that Adam and Eve would have had sex if they never ate the apple.
Wrong! That is not what it means. It means they were ashamed of their nakedness! Read the Bible, and get a clue! :rolleyes:
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 02:23 PM
God did not lie. Adam and Eve did die. Before they ate the apple, they were immortal. Of course, the whole Adam and Eve story is fiction and at least the Catholic Church doesn't deny that. It's the meaning behind the story that's important. Nevertheless, Adam and Eve did die.
for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The same day, not sometime later. Think about what you read before you make excuses for God!
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 02:26 PM
Also note that "the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" indicates God is not so innocent himself, but then he's a liar according to this passage so no surprise there.
There's a flaw in your proof, the Bible. The Bible is not evidence of anything. Good, sound scientific evidence is not ambiguous, doubtful, uncertain, open to more than one interpretation. The Bible, a minister's words or personal experience do not qualify. Evidence is testable through repeatable methods that show it is not ambiguous. It doesn't matter who agrees or disagrees with it. It yields the same results to all observers. That the Bible has resulted in thousands of denominations of faith is evidence itself of thousands of different interpretations of it's writings, evidence that the Bible itself does not qualify as evidence of anything.
It is also important to note that there is not one word in the whole Bible penned by Jesus or God themselves. The whole book is of the Paul-said-Jesus-said-Matthew-said-that-Jesus-said-Paul said-that-Matthew-said-that-Jesus-said type of hearsay. Much of it is written decades or even centuries after Jesus is supposed to have lived making it hearsay removed many times over. It is simply not a credible piece of evidence about anything.
I wouldn't worry to much about proving that God's a liar until someone can provide even the most remote evidence that there is even a God to begin with. For now you'd have better luck proving that some table or chair is a liar, at least you can prove they exist.
spidergoat
01-07-08, 02:35 PM
I don't know exactly who wrote the Bible, but it sure wasn't God.
BlueMoose
01-07-08, 02:37 PM
Nice way to refute and same time supporting QE case, at least when looking what he has been providing here in other threads as well ;) :thumbsup:
try it one more time.
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The answer is right there. And it matches with what is said below. May not mean physical death, i am not sure if it would or can.
-And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
is become (has) become- NOW HE KNOWS. Same as above.
try it one more time.
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
The answer is right there. And it matches with what is said below. May not mean physical death, i am not sure if it would or can.
-And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
is become (has) become- NOW HE KNOWS. Same as above.
:confused: How is that the same ?
It clearly states "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die"...
Did they die that day ? :shrug:
I am not following you. Its not a real tree.
I am not following you. Its not a real tree.
Does that matter ? If it was not a real tree, then what was it ?
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 03:26 PM
Does that matter ? If it was not a real tree, then what was it ?
I have seen strong evidence to suggest it is a metaphor representing the pine trees in Siberia from under which grew the amanita muscaria psychedelic mushroom (or "pineapple"). The "apple" being the mushroom. This of course explains how the tree is described as the "tree of knowledge".
I have seen strong evidence to suggest it is a metaphor representing the pine trees in Siberia from under which grew the amanita muscaria psychedelic mushroom (or "pineapple"). The "apple" being the mushroom. This of course explains how the tree is described as the "tree of knowledge".
lol that would be a cool explanation but where does Siberia fit into the bible stories ?
spidergoat
01-07-08, 04:04 PM
The fruit of the tree could just as easily be mushrooms growing on a cow patty, common in Africa.
The fruit of the tree could just as easily be mushrooms growing on a cow patty, common in Africa.
Or anywhere else for that matter. I would be interested to hear why he said Siberia, he must have a reason I guess..
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 04:08 PM
lol that would be a cool explanation but where does Siberia fit into the bible stories ?
In upper latitudes Siberia was a place where the Sun truly "died" for part of the year.
See this doc for more info! (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8700041490363244845)
In upper latitudes Siberia was a place where the Sun truly "died" for part of the year.
See this doc for more info! (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8700041490363244845)
Hmm I can't view that here. I'll have to view that at home tomorrow.. :(
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 04:11 PM
Hmm I can't view that here. I'll have to view that at home tomorrow.. :(
It will be WELL worth your time! :D
Being rendered mortal from a defacto immortal state is dying. God is correct, again!
If Adam is peeing and letting it hang loose in front of Eve, why should he suddenly become ashamed of his genitals? Obviously, because he now knows another use for them connected to evil - the lust in his heart - as opposed to a good - the simple need to relieve one's bladder.
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 04:34 PM
Being rendered mortal from a defacto immortal state is dying. God is correct, again!
NOT!
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 04:36 PM
If Adam is peeing and letting it hang loose in front of Eve, why should he suddenly become ashamed of his genitals? Obviously, because he now knows another use for them connected to evil - the lust in his heart - as opposed to a good - the simple need to relieve one's bladder.
All astrological allegory. Sorry buddy, the truth is what the truth is! Can't twist it, cant make it go away! :D
Right, NOT PROOF THAT GOD LIED!
You're the one playing twister.
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 04:38 PM
Right, NOT PROOF THAT GOD LIED!
Not only that god(Chronos) lied, but that the serpent was telling the truth! :mufc:
Being rendered mortal from a defacto immortal state is dying. God is correct, again!
What God?
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 04:40 PM
What God?
Chronos/Saturn/El/Yahweh/Jehovah! That god.
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 04:42 PM
You're the one playing twister.
From your perspective the whole world is twisted. Must be tough.
If Adam is peeing and letting it hang loose in front of Eve, why should he suddenly become ashamed of his genitals? Obviously, because he now knows another use for them connected to evil - the lust in his heart - as opposed to a good - the simple need to relieve one's bladder.
Why didn't Adam go behind the tree. He might well have become aware of the gravity of his situation.
SnakeLord
01-07-08, 05:50 PM
Being rendered mortal from a defacto immortal state is dying. God is correct, again!
I have argued against any claim that they were immortal at any point. Repeating your claim while offering nothing to support it except for a '!' isn't of much use or value.
If Adam is peeing and letting it hang loose in front of Eve, why should he suddenly become ashamed of his genitals?
When adam and eve realised they were naked they were seemingly quite calm and made themselves some clothing..
".. and they realised they were naked. So they sewed fig leaves together..."
It is when god comes strolling through the garden that issue is raised and that issue is not shame, it is fear. Maybe he thought god was a pervert.
Obviously, because he now knows another use for them connected to evil - the lust in his heart
Lust isn't in itself 'evil' and is indeed quite important in order for a species to multiply. Of course there would have been no need for it before eating the fruit because, as you seemingly agree, there wouldn't have ever been any offspring had they not have eaten it. Surely you should be very thankful to the snake and to adam and eve for not listening to that particular stuck up sky fairy.. Without them doing what they did you wouldn't even be here to worship that sky fairy.
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 06:04 PM
I have argued against any claim that they were immortal at any point. Repeating your claim while offering nothing to support it except for a '!' isn't of much use or value.
When adam and eve realised they were naked they were seemingly quite calm and made themselves some clothing..
".. and they realised they were naked. So they sewed fig leaves together..."
It is when god comes strolling through the garden that issue is raised and that issue is not shame, it is fear. Maybe he thought god was a pervert.
Lust isn't in itself 'evil' and is indeed quite important in order for a species to multiply. Of course there would have been no need for it before eating the fruit because, as you seemingly agree, there wouldn't have ever been any offspring had they not have eaten it. Surely you should be very thankful to the snake and to adam and eve for not listening to that particular stuck up sky fairy.. Without them doing what they did you wouldn't even be here to worship that sky fairy.
Why? You've been OWNED!! :yay:
spidergoat
01-07-08, 06:12 PM
I don't get it. What is the lie?
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 06:13 PM
I don't get it. What is the lie?
for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
But they didn't die, hence God is a liar.
spidergoat
01-07-08, 06:18 PM
I guess he underestimated his creation. "Surely die" is merely a prediction. If you get bit by a snake, you will surely die. But some people don't.
lightgigantic
01-07-08, 06:29 PM
Who mentioned wisdom ? So what is the ideal speed at which to read such stuff? Try telling us how you know that paradoxes are deliberately introduced.
Kind of a weak argument LOL
interpreting scripture without reference to hermeneutics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_2:17) is kind of like interpreting algebra without reference to times tables
See my post #38 and the answer is provided there. There was no tree, no snake and 'surely die' is something that needs to be hashed out. The fact is i wont say any more for now.
for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
But they didn't die, hence God is a liar.
Who is 'they'?
Do Christians believe in an actual Adam and Eve?
losfomoT
01-07-08, 06:34 PM
for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
But they didn't die, hence God is a liar.
Wasn't it in the same day that God banished them from the garden and from access to the tree of life, thereby condemning them to death by mortality? If condemnation to death is not close enough for you, then maybe you should remember that the bible was written by man, who is fallible. At any rate, it seems like a pretty small, and disputable point to be used to call God a liar... I'm sure there are better examples to be found.
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 06:36 PM
Who is 'they'?
Do Christians believe in an actual Adam and Eve?
The real ones do.
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 06:38 PM
Wasn't it in the same day that God banished them from the garden and from access to the tree of life, thereby condemning them to death by mortality? If condemnation to death is not close enough for you, then maybe you should remember that the bible was written by man, who is fallible. At any rate, it seems like a pretty small, and disputable point to be used to call God a liar... I'm sure there are better examples to be found.
the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Means the SAME DAY, NOT YEARS LATER as was the case.
interpreting scripture without reference to hermeneutics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_2:17) is kind of like interpreting algebra without reference to times tables
Huh how does this deal with the weakness of your argument ?
The real ones do.
Which ones are the real ones? Seems to me that you read too much into those passages but then it really seems not enough. It is simple play on words.
Simple but they seem to say a lot.
SnakeLord
01-07-08, 06:45 PM
John99... the christian that dismisses gods book as a work of fiction. It's classic.
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 06:47 PM
Which ones are the real ones? Seems to me that you read too much into those passages but then it really seems not enough. It is simple play on words.
Simple but they seem to say a lot.
You're wasting your/our time here. You have nothing intelligent or ground-breaking to add to the argument. You are naught but a buzzing fly! :yawn:
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 06:49 PM
John99... the christian that dismisses gods book as a work of fiction. It's classic.
Thank you! Finally, someone who knows WTF he's talking about! :)
Chronos/Saturn/El/Yahweh/Jehovah! That god.
There's no evidence for that God so that can't be the one...
Incriminating Convoy
01-07-08, 06:49 PM
The real ones do.
And apparently my step-mom is a real Christian. She is completely blinded by her blind faith and the snakes that work her like a charm. She truly believes that Adam and Eve were real people.
lightgigantic
01-07-08, 06:51 PM
Huh how does this deal with the weakness of your argument ?
There's a whole pre-existing argument on what the verses indicate and how they are relevant/irrelevant to practitioners - if one wants to formulate a grand argument it could pay to examine these issues
(otherwise one runs the risk of simply countering an argument that not even practitioners hold as valid - kind of like preaching to the converted)
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 06:51 PM
There's no evidence for that God so that can't be the one...
I meant mythically speaking, you know in the childish - lets pretend - world of Christians.
spidergoat
01-07-08, 06:51 PM
Maybe they did die. We as their decendants are the walking dead. Only those living in paradise are truly living.
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 06:52 PM
And apparently my step-mom is a real Christian. She is completely blinded by her blind faith and the snakes that work her like a charm. She truly believes that Adam and Eve were real people.
As does my mother. And she would call anyone that said otherwise a false prophet that is "of the Devil"!
losfomoT
01-07-08, 06:52 PM
the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Means the SAME DAY, NOT YEARS LATER as was the case.
You can repeat the same thing over and over again as much as you want... it's still a disputable point.
People haven't always talked the same as they do now. The statement could easily have been meant this way:
The day that you eat from that tree, will be the day that your death is assured.
Which does not mean that they will die that very day... it only means that if they eat from the tree, they will surely die sometime.
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 06:58 PM
There's a whole pre-existing argument on what the verses indicate and how they are relevant/irrelevant to practitioners - if one wants to formulate a grand argument it could pay to examine these issues
(otherwise one runs the risk of simply countering an argument that not even practitioners hold as valid - kind of like preaching to the converted)
God forbid one might practice Christianity and believe the Bible doesn't mean exactly what it says! I have news for you, speaking as a past tense Christian I can tell you that the Bible is always taken literally until the literal translation is INCONVENIENT to the faith. As you are not, nor ever have been a Christian you are not qualified to speak on this. I am because I have been one for 22 years! And unlike most ignoramus Christians I actually read the entire Bible when I was a Christian.
spidergoat
01-07-08, 07:00 PM
Besides, the original was written in Hebrew or Greek or Aramaic or something.
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 07:01 PM
You can repeat the same thing over and over again as much as you want... it's still a disputable point.
People haven't always talked the same as they do now. The statement could easily have been meant this way:
The day that you eat from that tree, will be the day that your death is assured.
Which does not mean that they will die that very day... it only means that if they eat from the tree, they will surely die sometime.
While you're at it you should write your own translation of the Bible, you've already got one verse under your belt...
Funny how people are so quick to use a double standard with the Bible. Take it literal here, modify it a little there, and get the message you want it to say!
Cyperium
01-07-08, 07:03 PM
Genesis 2:17 (KJV)
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 3:4-5 (KJV)
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Genesis 3:22 (KJV)
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Note how everything the serpent said turns out true, but what God said "thou shalt surely die" turns out to be false.
"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us"
ONE OF US? US? Hmm... God or gods? :scratchin:
Pretty straight forward, if you don't fool yourself into letting some scumbag pastor or priest do your thinking for you!
Arguments? Agreements? BRING IT ON!! :deal:What do you think the writers meant? After all, that day brought death upon them. On that day death came to humans. Also one might consider that "day" might mean something else than just that single day. I don't think that those that wrote it made such a simplistic error, if they did an error though then it is a error, and surely God is no liar.
If you do your thinking yourself you might just get some answers. Also, even I refer to myself as "us" sometimes for some strange reason lol, not in the same way Gollum does though...
Also, there is nothing that say that the devil can't say the truth, if it has the right motives :)
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 07:03 PM
Besides, the original was written in Hebrew or Greek or Aramaic or something.
Yes and we all know that the English speaking world reads that version and not the English version.
Glad you could clear that up for us now we can all go home!
lightgigantic
01-07-08, 07:03 PM
While you're at it you should write your own translation of the Bible, you've already got one verse under your belt...
Funny how people are so quick to use a double standard with the Bible. Take it literal here, modify it a little there, and get the message you want it to say!
one could say the same of you
(there are very good reason (http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/12800/)s why you have to roll your dice off the backboard in vegas)
:D
John99... the christian that dismisses gods book as a work of fiction. It's classic.
Its not classic, its inconsequential. Why would it matter to you anyway?
You're wasting your/our time here. You have nothing intelligent or ground-breaking to add to the argument. You are naught but a buzzing fly! :yawn:
no kidding. i thought you wanted to discuss this but obviously you dont. going back and forth with insults is a waste of time. you dont like the response you got so you ignore it. GOOD BYE.
Cyperium
01-07-08, 07:07 PM
While you're at it you should write your own translation of the Bible, you've already got one verse under your belt...
Funny how people are so quick to use a double standard with the Bible. Take it literal here, modify it a little there, and get the message you want it to say!Well, it's pretty obvious what was meant with the passage, so it's not like we are stretching things. Also, it might not be that important to you if you don't seek for an answer, but only to refute things, so you might not get what you would look for, if you would be a honest searcher for truth.
Cause surely the writers didn't mean that God told a lie? So we can tell beforehand that they meant something else.
I meant mythically speaking, you know in the childish - lets pretend - world of Christians.
There comes a time though when even kids need to be told there's no Santa Claus, no Tooth Fairy, no leprechauns with pots of gold....
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 07:09 PM
What do you think the writers meant? After all, that day brought death upon them. On that day death came to humans. Also one might consider that "day" might mean something else than just that single day. I don't think that those that wrote it made such a simplistic error, if they did an error though then it is a error, and surely God is no liar.
If you do your thinking yourself you might just get some answers. Also, even I refer to myself as "us" sometimes for some strange reason lol, not in the same way Gollum does though...
Also, there is nothing that say that the devil can't say the truth, if it has the right motives :)
You are not getting that concept from the Bible, you are regurgitating someone else's interpretation, yet nowhere is what you said indicated. You are FABRICATING text! Read the TEXT as if some theologian hadn't told you how to think! That is the point of this exercise. Clear your mind of their bullshit and my bullshit and just read it as it is! Why is it so hard for you people to get that through your thick skulls? Are you that indoctrinated that you have to be told how to think? The mind control is deep with you people, seriously!
losfomoT
01-07-08, 07:12 PM
While you're at it you should write your own translation of the Bible, you've already got one verse under your belt...
Funny how people are so quick to use a double standard with the Bible. Take it literal here, modify it a little there, and get the message you want it to say!
The bible is one of the most ambiguous and contradicting writings on Earth. If you want to take every verse literally, that's your basket of fun... but my point is still valid. Or do you really believe grammar and syntax are identical between languages, or even over time within the same language?
I'm not saying my translation is correct. I'm just saying that your point is arguable. You're the one with the strict interpretation that you won't admit could be wrong.
QuestionEverything, can you interpret music too?
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 07:19 PM
The bible is one of the most ambiguous and contradicting writings on Earth. If you want to take every verse literally, that's your basket of fun... but my point is still valid. Or do you really belief grammar and syntax are identical between languages, or even over time within the same language?
I'm not saying my translation is correct. I'm just saying that your point is arguable. You're the one with the strict interpretation that you won't admit could be wrong.
It's not wrong, it's astrological allegory. That is why it should be taken literally, just from an astrology mindset. This is why the Bible makes no sense, because it is nothing but an elaborate child's fairy tail. But there are people who think it is true because the are told it is history and not astrology.
Of course the idea that God is a liar seems strange, why would he lie, he doesn't need to. But a lot doesn't make sense when you view the Bible through historical glasses. When you view it through astrological glasses, however, he could put on a tutu and dance to the Barber of Seville!
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 07:24 PM
The whole Bible is mostly astrological allegories. The reason the book of Revelation doesn't make any sense is because it's an astrological allegory. It makes sense when you start to interpret it in that manner. [See The Book of Revelation]. The Old Testament also originated as an astrological allegory. The story of Adam and Eve is the story of Virgo and Bootes, the constellation next to Virgo. The whole story of Moses is an astrological allegory. There is no evidence that any of it actually happened, and quite a lot of evidence that it didn't. So is the story of Joseph and his coat of many colors, the youngest and most favorite of twelve brothers. The number 12 again is a tip off that this is an astrological allegory of the 12 months of the year and the 12 signs of the Zodiac.
Quote source here (http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/solarmyth/christ2002.htm)
SnakeLord
01-07-08, 07:35 PM
After all, that day brought death upon them.
Not true unless you can show that without having eaten from the tree of life that they were immortal. Simply put, gods panic shows they couldn't have been. If they were already immortal then eating from the tree would be of no consequence and thus god would have nothing to poop his panties over.
Its not classic, its inconsequential. Why would it matter to you anyway?
It is classic, it's not inconsequential. I wouldn't say it matters to me as much as it might matter to this god of yours. What holiday ticket does doubt, lack of faith and lack of belief in the words of your god get you?
It simply shows that not even the god squad actually believe the shit that is written. They just cherry pick the parts that sound nice to them and throw the rest in the heap.
Orleander
01-07-08, 07:48 PM
So God is a liar and your proof is the Bible?? The Bible!?
How is that proof, especially considering God didn't write the Bible. isn't that considered hearsay in a court of law, which makes it inadmissible?
QuestionEverything
01-07-08, 08:02 PM
So God is a liar and your proof is the Bible?? The Bible!?
How is that proof, especially considering God didn't write the Bible. isn't that considered hearsay in a court of law, which makes it inadmissible?
According to any good Christian the Bible is "God's word" and infallible. Don't believe me? Just ask Adstar.
God said, "By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."
"[T]o dust you will return" is a clear reference to the promised death of Adam and Eve by God. Sorry, you are wrong. God did not mean you will die today. God meant you will become mortal.
Many dreams come true and some have silver linings
I live for my dream and a pocketful of gold.
Mellow is the man who knows what he's been missing
Many many men can't see the open road.
Many is a word that only leaves you guessing
Guessing 'bout a thing you really ought to know, ooh!
You really ought to know...
I really ought to know...
Its the point of no return, thats all.
QuestionEverything
01-08-08, 02:23 PM
God said, "By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return."
"[T]o dust you will return" is a clear reference to the promised death of Adam and Eve by God. Sorry, you are wrong. God did not mean you will die today. God meant you will become mortal.
More circular logic from the master of it!
Additionally, the Serpent wanted them to eat from the tree. The serpent was a deceiver.
QuestionEverything
01-08-08, 02:35 PM
Additionally, the Serpent wanted them to eat from the tree. The serpent was a deceiver.
:yawn:
The serpent was a Zoomorphism of a constellation, just like Taurus, Aries, Leo, Hydra, Cancer, Capricorn, etc.
Orleander
01-08-08, 02:35 PM
QE, why do you care? You're an atheist right? Why would you care what a god you don't believe in has to say?
QuestionEverything
01-08-08, 02:37 PM
QE, why do you care? You're an atheist right? Why would you care what a god you don't believe in has to say?
Because the ignorance of the masses is destroying the planet I live on. That ignorance is a disease that must be stamped out!
Orleander
01-08-08, 02:40 PM
Because the ignorance of the masses is destroying the planet I live on. That ignorance is a disease that must be stamped out!
But its a specific kind of ignorance I take it. Do you care that some children never learn to read? Are you working to stamp that out?
So you have come to a science board to spread your intelligence about religion? Why not a religious board?
Because the ignorance of the masses is destroying the planet I live on. That ignorance is a disease that must be stamped out!
These things people believe in since beginning of time are destroying the planet you live on?
QuestionEverything
01-08-08, 02:43 PM
But its a specific kind of ignorance I take it. Do you care that some children never learn to read? Are you working to stamp that out?
So you have come to a science board to spread your intelligence about religion? Why not a religious board?
One man can't do it alone, but if one man can create 10 teachers of truth, that man has done much!
QuestionEverything
01-08-08, 02:46 PM
These things people believe in since beginning of time are destroying the planet you live on?
When they sit back idly and let the establishment destroy this planet without putting up even a small fight because their beliefs tell them that "God/Jesus" will fix our problems for us...
YES!
Well then you may as well conclude that science and knowledge has destroyed the planet. So why dont you?
What makes you think the planet is destroyed anyway?
SnakeLord
01-08-08, 02:55 PM
Additionally, the Serpent wanted them to eat from the tree. The serpent was a deceiver.
Incorrect, the serpent was telling the complete truth. The serpent, in getting them to eat the fruit, is responsible for you having knowledge of good and evil, for you having morals, and yes.. for you even knowing when you're naked. The serpent is ultimately the only reason you even exist.
Show some respect.
QuestionEverything
01-08-08, 03:00 PM
Well then you may as well conclude that science and knowledge has destroyed the planet. So why dont you?
Ironically to date it hasn't been a positive influence. But then when some greedy oil exec buys the technology that would save us and then buries it, what can you expect.
What makes you think the planet is destroyed anyway?
I don't, but it's on it's way. Just live in any urban area and tell me that it's a natural healthy state for the planet to be in. Then note the fact that this urban construction is spreading like a cancer across the face of the Earth.
Also, the spread of fascism around the globe is another problem the sheep have allowed. It's got to stop or we are all going to be miserable.
Incorrect, the serpent was telling the complete truth. The serpent, in getting them to eat the fruit, is responsible for you having knowledge of good and evil, for you having morals, and yes.. for you even knowing when you're naked. The serpent is ultimately the only reason you even exist.
Show some respect.
You know i am right. I know the story.
SnakeLord
01-08-08, 05:02 PM
You know i am right. I know the story.
Right about what?
1) Do you agree that god specifically told them not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?
2) Do you concur that upon eating from the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that adam and eve became aware of their own nudity?
3) If you answer yes to both of the above you are agreeing that the serpent is responsible for your self awareness.
----
1) Did Adam die the day he ate of the fruit and did Adam gain knowledge of good and evil upon eating the fruit? Kindly show where the serpent lied or deceived.
2) Do you espouse that we should not have knowledge of good and evil? Without it, kindly tell me how you could ever know that your god was good..
3) Do you deny that god demanded that adam and eve not eat that which would allow them to even know that this god was good? Of course not, so who do you have to thank for having the ability to know good from evil, to know right from wrong? Certainly not god.
QuestionEverything
01-08-08, 07:19 PM
You know i am right. I know the story.
Did you know that the serpent in the story is based on the constellation Scorpio? The ancients did not depict Scorpio as a scorpion, but instead as a serpent, and occasionally as an eagle. This serpent was vilified because it was the back-biter that bit the Sun and sent it to it's death in the Fall. This is why the serpent is the symbol of evil in the Bible. Taken a step further, this most beautiful of creatures was demoted as described here:
Genesis 3:14 (King James Version)
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Note that the house of Scorpio (the serpent) is opposite the house of Taurus (the Bull or "cattle") in the wheel of the zodiac. This scripture refers to the ending of the exoteric Age of Gemini(Adam and Eve) and entering into the exoteric Age of Taurus. This astrological event took place approximately 6000 years ago, note the date of Genesis is placed at 6000 years ago. Also the exoteric ages are based on geocentric astrology. The esoteric ages are based on heliocentric astrology. So when it was the exoteric Age of Taurus it was the esoteric Age of Scorpio. Hence the serpent and the cattle.
So as I've said numerous times this is all astrological allegory, period.
You lose, do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars! :yay:
Orleander
01-08-08, 07:26 PM
...Genesis 3:14 (King James Version)
14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
Note that the house of Scorpio (the serpent) is opposite the house of Taurus (the Bull or "cattle") in the wheel of the zodiac. ....
but what about all the beasts of the field? You pick and choose what to believe just like a Christian. :rolleyes:
QuestionEverything
01-08-08, 07:29 PM
but what about all the beasts of the field? You pick and choose what to believe just like a Christian. :rolleyes:
That's a fair and valid question which I am very happy that you asked. The "beasts of the field" are the remaining houses of the zodiac, the zodiac is the field.
Orleander
01-08-08, 07:36 PM
so what kind of beasts are Virgo, Capricorn, Aquarius, Gemini, and Libra? What field are Cancer and Pisces in?
so field isn't a real field. Its a zodiac wheel? THAT is a LOT of twisting and turning to get it to mean what you want.
there is no proof of God to exist
God is a reflection of those who created it
the reflection of those who created image of God are not trustworthy
lightgigantic
01-08-08, 07:45 PM
there is no proof of God to exist
God is a reflection of those who created it
the reflection of those who created image of God are not trustworthy
on what grounds are your premises trustworthy (particularly your second premise)
losfomoT
01-08-08, 07:50 PM
Right about what?
1) Do you agree that god specifically told them not to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil?
2) Do you concur that upon eating from the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that adam and eve became aware of their own nudity?
3) If you answer yes to both of the above you are agreeing that the serpent is responsible for your self awareness.
----
1) Did Adam die the day he ate of the fruit and did Adam gain knowledge of good and evil upon eating the fruit? Kindly show where the serpent lied or deceived.
2) Do you espouse that we should not have knowledge of good and evil? Without it, kindly tell me how you could ever know that your god was good..
3) Do you deny that god demanded that adam and eve not eat that which would allow them to even know that this god was good? Of course not, so who do you have to thank for having the ability to know good from evil, to know right from wrong? Certainly not god.
These are great arguments. Also, why would God put a tree with fruit, called 'The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil' right in the middle of the Garden of Eden, and then tell Adam and Eve that it is forbidden to eat the fruit? Talk about temptation! What is it that we naturally thirst for?... knowledge! This alone is far greater temptation than any serpent could offer.
So as I've said numerous times this is all astrological allegory, period.
You lose, do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars! :yay:
This, on the other hand, is a load of crap. Go watch 'The Number 29', I think your suffering from the same psychosis.
QuestionEverything
01-08-08, 07:51 PM
so what kind of beasts are Virgo, Capricorn, Aquarius, Gemini, and Libra? What field are Cancer and Pisces in?
so field isn't a real field. Its a zodiac wheel? THAT is a LOT of twisting and turning to get it to mean what you want.
That's right it doesn't make sense, until you realize that an allegory isn't about making sense it's about remembrance.
Kinda like this poem:
The Ramble Twins Crab Liverish;
Scaly Scorpions Are Good Water Fish.
(Ram-Ble = Ram, Bull; Twins = Twins; Li-Ver(ish) = Lion, Virgin;Scaly = Scale; Scorpion = Scorpio; Are = Archer; Good = Goat; Water = Water Bearer; Fish = Fish)
Orleander
01-08-08, 07:53 PM
so Genesis 3:14 is an allegory, not made to make sense. Huh, look at that. It doesn't.
QuestionEverything
01-08-08, 07:56 PM
This, on the other hand, is a load of crap. Go watch 'The Number 29', I think your suffering from the same psychosis.
That's because you are an uneducated idiot. You have no idea what YOU are talking about. YOU have not done ANY research so YOU HAVE NO CREDIBILITY HERE! You and all those like you don't know how to think for yourself, you let others do that for you!
Here is the proof idiot! (http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/solarmyth/christ2002.htm)
Get lost!
QuestionEverything
01-08-08, 07:57 PM
so Genesis 3:14 is an allegory, not made to make sense. Huh, look at that. It doesn't.
Bingo.
Orleander
01-08-08, 07:58 PM
Bingo.
The way you interpret it doesn't make sense. If you read it exactly as it is written, it does.
You are worse that a christian. :bugeye:
Incriminating Convoy
01-08-08, 07:59 PM
so Genesis 3:14 is an allegory, not made to make sense. Huh, look at that. It doesn't.
According to certain claims, the whole bible itself is a collection of allegories.
Orleander
01-08-08, 07:59 PM
According to certain claims, the whole bible itself is a collection of allegories.
yes, that's what QE keeps saying.
Incriminating Convoy
01-08-08, 08:05 PM
yes, that's what QE keeps saying.
Yet, you seem not to understand what he is getting about. That allegories are in the bible. In the Bible there are a lot of references to the constellations in the sky. QE and others claim that Jesus is an allegory, and if you have actually read this page, http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/solarmyth/christ2002.htm
it makes a lot of sense. And maybe, just maybe if you read the whole website dedicated to this solar mythology and the bible you might get somewhere with what QE is saying.
QuestionEverything
01-08-08, 08:06 PM
The way you interpret it doesn't make sense. If you read it exactly as it is written, it does.
You are worse that a christian. :bugeye:
Here, watch this, you might learn something! (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8700041490363244845)
superluminal
01-08-08, 08:08 PM
That's because you are an uneducated idiot.
...
Here is the proof idiot!
Get lost!
Hmmm... mods getting a bit tolerant I see. I think I'll start a nice series of flame threads. Should be fun.
losfomoT
01-08-08, 08:14 PM
That's because you are an uneducated idiot. You have no idea what YOU are talking about. YOU have not done ANY research so YOU HAVE NO CREDIBILITY HERE! You and all those like you don't know how to think for yourself, you let others do that for you!
Here is the proof idiot! (http://members.cox.net/deleyd/religion/solarmyth/christ2002.htm)
Get lost!
Sorry, not proof.
Besides, you contradict yourself...
You say every verse is an astrological allegory, and yet, in the original post of this very thread, you are insisting that we take the verse,
Genesis 2:17 (KJV)
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
exactly, literally, in today's language and grammar, how it is written, in order to prove God a liar.
Talk about twisting things to suit your 'beliefs'
QuestionEverything
01-08-08, 08:19 PM
Hmmm... mods getting a bit tolerant I see. I think I'll start a nice series of flame threads. Should be fun.
Sorry but I get pissed when some loser with no knowledge of the subject at hand has the nerve to call me a crazy. I won't tolerate that kind of B.S.. Look at all the evidence I put forward to support my claims and then come back and talk. Till then, I have no use for some fool and his/her willful ignorance.
I don't need to be here educating you people on this stuff. You can go on with your pointless, fruitless, circular arguments over morality and how science can prove that creationism is wrong and all the other nonsense. I don't need to be here, I'm not learning anything new from you people so what's in it for me? I can spend my time researching and fuck teaching, instead I'll just worry about me. Then you people can live in blissful ignorance just the way it was before I got here. Then you can go back to calling M*W a nut because it makes you feel better to believe the world is flat. How would that be?
QuestionEverything
01-08-08, 08:22 PM
Sorry, not proof.
Besides, you contradict yourself...
You say every verse is an astrological allegory, and yet, in the original post of this very thread, you are insisting that we take the verse,
Genesis 2:17 (KJV)
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
exactly, literally, in today's language and grammar, how it is written, in order to prove God a liar.
Talk about twisting things to suit your 'beliefs'
YOU ARE THE ONE WHO TAKES IT LITERALLY I AM NOT!
I AM SHOWING YOU PEOPLE JUST HOW FUCKING STUPID THE POSITION OF TAKING THE BIBLE LITERALLY IS!
GET A GOD DAMNED CLUE!
IT IS PROOF READ IT FOOL!!
lightgigantic
01-08-08, 08:24 PM
YOU ARE THE ONE WHO TAKES IT LITERALLY I AM NOT!
I AM SHOWING YOU PEOPLE JUST HOW FUCKING STUPID THE POSITION OF TAKING THE BIBLE LITERALLY IS!
GET A GOD DAMNED CLUE!
I think you miss the point
Christians commonly draw criticism for taking something as literal in one instance and allegorical in another.
You are doing the same thing (in the name of defaming christianity).
Why should you be given any special credence?
QuestionEverything
01-08-08, 08:28 PM
I think you miss the point
Christians commonly draw criticism for taking something as literal in one instance and allegorical in another.
You are doing the same thing (in the name of defaming christianity).
Why should you be given any special credence?
I argue the Bible from the literal Christian perspective and then turn around and show that the reason the arguments are failing is because the Bible is not based on literal events, it's an allegory.
I can't help the fact that your IQ isn't high enough to understand that.
Orleander
01-08-08, 08:38 PM
....I can't help the fact that your IQ isn't high enough to understand that.
apparently mine isn't either. :rolleyes:
I've never seen a christian twist the bible so much. well, maybe Fred Phelps does.....but..ya know.
lightgigantic
01-08-08, 08:42 PM
apparently mine isn't either. :rolleyes:
I've never seen a christian twist the bible so much. well, maybe Fred Phelps does.....but..ya know.
actually there is philosophical phenomena where radically opposed dualities bear a striking similarity to one another.
For instance fascism, despite being the ideological opposite of communism, is practically identical in terms of effect (compare stalin and hitler)
:scratchin:
superluminal
01-08-08, 08:43 PM
I can't help the fact that your IQ isn't high enough to understand that.
I think you need to rethink your approach when you have atheists siding with theists in a debate about the bible!
:roflmao:
QuestionEverything
01-08-08, 08:44 PM
apparently mine isn't either. :rolleyes:
I've never seen a christian twist the bible so much. well, maybe Fred Phelps does.....but..ya know.
I'm not a Christian and I'm not twisting it. You have no concept of ancient esoteric philosophy, hermetic philosophy, and the Mystery schools. All of that philosophy is what the authors of the Bible were initiated in. Can't help that you don't know that.
Orleander
01-08-08, 08:46 PM
....All of that philosophy is what the authors of the Bible were initiated in. ....
how do you know? Did they find their report cards from classes? The sign in sheets from the meetings?
Orleander
01-08-08, 08:46 PM
I think you need to rethink your approach when you have atheists siding with theists in a debate about the bible!
:roflmao:
I KNOW!!!
I feel dirty for some reason. :(
QuestionEverything
01-08-08, 08:48 PM
how do you know? Did they find their report cards from classes? The sign in sheets from the meetings?
Read Manly P. Hall "The Secret Teachings of All Ages" to get more information.
Are you a Christian?
lightgigantic
01-08-08, 08:49 PM
I KNOW!!!
I feel dirty for some reason. :(
Well the first thing one sees, after seeing the light, is all the mess that was previously in darkness
:cool:
Orleander
01-08-08, 08:49 PM
Read Manly P. Hall "The Secret Teachings of All Ages" to get more information.
Are you a Christian?
so I'm supposed to believe his book but not the Bible?
So because he says they took classes in this, it must be true. :shrug:
QuestionEverything
01-08-08, 08:50 PM
I think you need to rethink your approach when you have atheists siding with theists in a debate about the bible!
:roflmao:
I have given you people rock solid evidence. I can see that I am wasting my time. I am done with you.
superluminal
01-08-08, 08:51 PM
Bye. :wave:
Orleander
01-08-08, 08:53 PM
.... I am done with you.
YES!!!:yay:
lightgigantic
01-08-08, 08:55 PM
I have given you people rock solid evidence. I can see that I am wasting my time. I am done with you.
close the door on your way out
:bravo:
Medicine*Woman
01-08-08, 08:57 PM
so what kind of beasts are Virgo, Capricorn, Aquarius, Gemini, and Libra? What field are Cancer and Pisces in?
so field isn't a real field. Its a zodiac wheel? THAT is a LOT of twisting and turning to get it to mean what you want.
*************
M*W: Let me give you an example. The Constellation Virgo represents a virgin with child with, guess what? A sacred heart! Virgo is holding in her right hand a sheath of wheat which refers to the "house of bread." In her left had, she holds some ears of corn. Bethlehem is also known as the "house of bread." Jesus was allegedly born to or in the "house of bread." This allegory is known by every civilization, and it was most likely taken by the ancient Habiru Egyptians from the Babylonians.
Virgo has many names of which she was known. The Habiru called her Bethulah or Almah, both meaning "a virgin." To the Greeks, she was known as Parthenos, Maid of Pureness.
The ears of corn she carries refer to "seed," with the emphasis of "seed" to which she was carrying. Was it Jesus or was it the corn and the wheat? Interestingly, christianity adopted the Eucharist (bread) of salvation.
My research has also found Virgo to be called "the barren woman" by the Arabians. My opinion is that she also represents Sarah and maybe even Ann, Jesus's alleged granny.
Virgo also represents the Egyptian figures of Isis and Horus. Virgo has always represented motherhood.
There are descriptions of the other Constellations you mentioned, but as you can see, this is just an example of one. This in no way means that the constellations have any power of anykind other than for ancient entertainment as well as is still being talked about today. That, in any event doesn't make anything more that what it has always been--myth, and all religions on earth originated from the ancient study of the stars.
QuestionEverything
01-08-08, 09:04 PM
*************
M*W: Let me give you an example. The Constellation Virgo represents a virgin with child with, guess what? A sacred heart! Virgo is holding in her right hand a sheath of wheat which refers to the "house of bread." In her left had, she holds some ears of corn. Bethlehem is also known as the "house of bread." Jesus was allegedly born to or in the "house of bread." This allegory is known by every civilization, and it was most likely taken by the ancient Habiru Egyptians from the Babylonians.
Virgo has many names of which she was known. The Habiru called her Bethulah or Almah, both meaning "a virgin." To the Greeks, she was known as Parthenos, Maid of Pureness.
The ears of corn she carries refer to "seed," with the emphasis of "seed" to which she was carrying. Was it Jesus or was it the corn and the wheat? Interestingly, christianity adopted the Eucharist (bread) of salvation.
My research has also found Virgo to be called "the barren woman" by the Arabians. My opinion is that she also represents Sarah and maybe even Ann, Jesus's alleged granny.
Virgo also represents the Egyptian figures of Isis and Horus. Virgo has always represented motherhood.
There are descriptions of the other Constellations you mentioned, but as you can see, this is just an example of one. This in no way means that the constellations have any power of anykind other than for ancient entertainment as well as is still being talked about today. That, in any event doesn't make anything more that what it has always been--myth, and all religions on earth originated from the ancient study of the stars.
minister = min + ster = moon + star = one who studies the moon and stars.
pastor = pa + stor = father + star
...and so on, but you are wasting your time here M*W. There is another forum where people who share similar knowledge study and collaborate. Here this information is "pearls before a swine".
All the idiots scrabbling around for some kind of foothold, that isn't there, end up looking bloody silly.
An argument from presumption is silly (or stupid-looking). The conclusion-jumpers, straw-grabbers, and so on look like a bunch who need some time off to think about what thinking is.
Someone who claims absolutely anything that appears to come up against your well-worn prosaity, is ridiculed and called an idiot (by a bunch of wilfully blind idiots).
What fun.
I'm pretty much at home with the idea of a book like the Bible being allegorical. or metaphorical (i.e. largely invented as a religious reference, the Jewish tradition kept the Hebrew people together for centuries).
Any so-called "rational" thinker who thinks dismissing "apparently" stupid ideas is how it's done, is being kind of stupid--especially if they don't even look at the ideas, but argue from their "assumed" but rather prosaic POV about what "science" or "logic" is supposed to be.
They look just like the fools they think they're deriding.
Such a laugh (har har).
superluminal
01-08-08, 09:09 PM
Frud,
Why do all of your posts look like A kidnappers ransome letters?
superluminal
01-08-08, 09:11 PM
minister = min + ster = moon + star = one who studies the moon and stars.
pastor = pa + stor = father + star
...and so on,
You're kidding, right?
lightgigantic
01-08-08, 09:11 PM
minister = min + ster = moon + star = one who studies the moon and stars.
pastor = pa + stor = father + star
I remember once while hitchhiking I got a lift with a guy who was thoroughly convinced there was deep esoteric significance in words when they are spoken backwards
for instance "AUSTRALIA" (phonetically backwards) ail art sewer
Needless to say, I made some pretext for him to drop me off earlier than my intended destination ....
QuestionEverything
01-08-08, 09:12 PM
All the idiots scrabbling around for some kind of foothold, that isn't there, end up looking bloody silly.
An argument from presumption is silly (or stupid-looking). The conclusion-jumpers, straw-grabbers, and so on look like a bunch who need some time off to think about what thinking is.
Someone who claims absolutely anything that appears to come up against your well-worn prosaity, is ridiculed and called an idiot (by a bunch of wilfully blind idiots).
What fun.
I'm pretty much at home with the idea of a book like the Bible being allegorical. or metaphorical (i.e. largely invented as a religious reference, the Jewish tradition kept the Hebrew people together for centuries).
Any so-called "rational" thinker who thinks dismissing "apparently" stupid ideas is how it's done, is being kind of stupid--especially if they don't even look at the ideas, but argue from their "assumed" but rather prosaic POV about what "science" or "logic" is supposed to be.
They look just like the fools they think they're deriding.
Such a laugh (har har).
You are the one dismissing the Bible, I am the one who has spent the time to research and understand it. Ironically that means I have shown the ancient document called "The Holy Bible" more respect than you have.
lightgigantic
01-08-08, 09:13 PM
You are the one dismissing the Bible, I am the one who has spent the time to research and understand it. Ironically that means I have shown the ancient document called "The Holy Bible" more respect than you have.
The only thing you respect and hold in awe and reverence is your fertile imagination
superluminal
01-08-08, 09:14 PM
lightgigantic:
cit nagig th gil
Sit nagging the gull!
lightgigantic
01-08-08, 09:20 PM
Superluminal
lani mulre pus
lady mule poos
(hmmm ... maybe there is more to this than I first anticipated)
Frud,
Why do all of your posts look like A kidnappers ransome letters?
If you arrange the words in bold they make out a great recipe for Gazpacho soup. :thumbsup:
superluminal
01-08-08, 09:26 PM
If you arrange the words in bold they make out a great recipe for Gazpacho soup. :thumbsup:
Mmmm.... soup....
superluminal
01-08-08, 09:27 PM
(Q):
(Q)
Pffft. Not very good.
superluminal
01-08-08, 09:28 PM
lady mule poos
:mad:
flameofanor5
01-08-08, 09:33 PM
Genesis 2:17 (KJV)
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 3:4-5 (KJV)
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Genesis 3:22 (KJV)
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Note how everything the serpent said turns out true, but what God said "thou shalt surely die" turns out to be false.
"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us"
ONE OF US? US? Hmm... God or gods? :scratchin:
Pretty straight forward, if you don't fool yourself into letting some scumbag pastor or priest do your thinking for you!
Arguments? Agreements? BRING IT ON!! :deal:
They did actually die...Besides King James Version is not the best version of the bible. Try the NIV or the NASB. Also, why are you calling pastors and priests scumbags? You are the one acting like one.
lightgigantic
01-08-08, 09:39 PM
(Q):
(Q)
Pffft. Not very good.
(Q) = queue = e ue u q = I ooey your question
the oracle speaks yet again
:eek:
superluminal
01-08-08, 09:51 PM
(Q)
cue
euc
eeeeyuk!
QuestionEverything
01-08-08, 10:38 PM
(Q)
cue
euc
eeeeyuk!
"The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the sun, in which they put a man called Christ in place of the sun, and pay him the adoration originally payed to the sun"
- Thomas Paine
If I'm wrong or crazy it looks like I have good company! :)
Try the NIV or the NASB. Also, why are you calling pastors and priests scumbags? You are the one acting like one.
He is a fire and brimstone one too.
"The Christian religion is a parody on the worship of the sun, in which they put a man called Christ in place of the sun, and pay him the adoration originally payed to the sun"
- Thomas Paine
If I'm wrong or crazy it looks like I have good company! :)
Thomas Paine was a Freemason. I dont care about Thomas Paine, i have no use for Thomas Paine.
Incriminating Convoy
01-09-08, 01:01 AM
He is a fire and brimstone one too.
Thomas Paine was a Freemason. I dont care about Thomas Paine, i have no use for Thomas Paine.
Thus Thomas Paine has no use for you, because you are a Christian who is blinded by blind faith.
Thus Thomas Paine has no use for you, because you are a Christian who is blinded by blind faith.
Do you care about Thomas paine?
because you are a Christian.
I am?
Incriminating Convoy
01-09-08, 01:41 AM
Thomas Paine is of the up most importance in American history as he was one of the revolutionist that set America free from the imperial Great Britain monarchy. I don't know if you are from the United States or not, but I believe that it is my duty to give honor to a man that set forth the freedom of the United States. His pamphlet Common Sense is extremely important in American history.
Do I care for him personally? No.
Do I care for him in the sake of American freedom? Yes.
...who has spent the time to research and understand it. Ironically that means I have shown the ancient document called "The Holy Bible" more respect
Your relative POV is based on what comparison? Who else, along with you as an individual, has spent the time to research this book? Why should the Gideon, or the King James, or which ever version, be the whole story? You know the thing was redacted several times before the 4th century, surely? What about all the stuff that hit the cutting-room floor? What about the DS scrolls, or all the other scrolls no-one hears about?
Your insistence on seeing astrological significance in religious terminology, isn't new. Numerology is a similar idea: that somehow a person's name, and the base10 number system, are connected, but the math has a pretty odd way of working, with arbitrary distribution, and so on. Why doesn't binary work with that, or base3?
Then again, "pa" is a common sound in many languages, to symbolise father, or the sun, Latin for father is pater. Stella, or stellae, is where "star" comes from.
The Romans thought the sky was a big curtain, and at night, the stars were holes in the curtain. The light was from the realm of the Gods.
Another Latin word that sounds like stella is stela: a pillar or column.
BlueMoose
01-09-08, 10:34 AM
Where the Christians got their traditions of religion, from the Jews.
And where the Jews got their traditions, from Egypt, Moses ~ Akhenaten.
Expelled to Sion, and started to write their beliefs by letters ~ bible, and the storys are the same, like Horus/Jesus for example.
In Egyptian religion there is Mises the lawgiver, like Moses was, once a again, just a coincidence ?
And wasnt religion on that time in Egypt based on astronomy/astrology, yes.
So there you have it.
Or, maybe Moses was his real name.
BlueMoose
01-09-08, 01:08 PM
Or, maybe Moses was his real name.
-Maybe or wait...maybe...
"The root of the name Moses is in the Egyptian word Mos which means "child." But this word also had a wider legal meaning—"the rightful son and heir." As it was punishable by death to mention Akhenaten's name after his banishment, a code name was established through which his followers could refer to him. Therefore they called him MOs, the son, to indicate that he was the legitimate son of Amenhotep III and the rightful heir to his father's throne. The ancient Egyptian language had no written vowels, although the vowels were pronounced. The written word meaning a child or son consisted of two consonants, m and s, It is therefore easy to see that the Hebrew word, Moses, was derived from the Egyptian, Mos. The final 's' of Moses derives from the Greek translation of the biblical name."
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=64602&page=5
Besides King James Version is not the best version of the bible. Try the NIV or the NASB.
Says who? From my POV the best version of the bible is the one tossed into the fireplace...
Says who? From my POV the best version of the bible is the one tossed into the fireplace...
that's why Bible is POV of many and many do not have the same POV as you do.
that's why Bible is POV of many and many do not have the same POV as you do.
Actually the Bible is many different POVs of many different people. That's why there are 100s of denominations resulting from 100s of different interpretations from the same book, all different POVs.
lightgigantic
01-09-08, 03:47 PM
Actually the Bible is many different POVs of many different people. That's why there are 100s of denominations resulting from 100s of different interpretations from the same book, all different POVs.
and that's why the bible is commonly understood according to hermeneutics so that despite all the POV's, common ground can be negotiated
Medicine*Woman
01-09-08, 03:50 PM
Actually the Bible is many different POVs of many different people. That's why there are 100s of denominations resulting from 100s of different interpretations from the same book, all different POVs.
*************
M*W: Try 1000's of christian denominations! There's something like 34,000 different christian denominations! That's why they're so confused!
flameofanor5
01-09-08, 08:10 PM
Genesis 2:17 (KJV)
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 3:4-5 (KJV)
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Genesis 3:22 (KJV)
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Note how everything the serpent said turns out true, but what God said "thou shalt surely die" turns out to be false.
"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us"
ONE OF US? US? Hmm... God or gods? :scratchin:
Pretty straight forward, if you don't fool yourself into letting some scumbag pastor or priest do your thinking for you!
Arguments? Agreements? BRING IT ON!! :deal:
When God said "you will surely die" He ment your body. But when He said you will live forever, He was talking about our souls. You say "Assume nothing" and yet you assumed what God ment, and you did not think about it. The first thing you find that sounds like God is a liar, you post it on this site without thinking a little about it.
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