The end is near!

[QuestionEverything]

This regards apocalyptic prophecy from an atheist's (my) perspective. I hope you will read this post objectively before commenting on it!

************************************************** ************************************************** *****

Revelation 12 (King James Version)

1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This passage of "scripture" has been misinterpreted by the "profane uninitiated" of the Christian churches for many years. Christians believe this message describes events in the so called "end times" or apocalypse. Of course Christians are taught to believe that astrology is evil which has been a means (for the initiated priest class) of keeping them from knowing the truth about passages like these...

The truth is that this is describing an astrological event that takes place every year on the same day. It is nothing more than a repeating movie that plays out every year in the "heavens".

Note the key words of obvious cosmological significance in the first verse:
heaven
sun
moon
stars

"a woman clothed with the sun" - refers to the constellation Virgo.
"the moon under her feet" - describes the location of the moon in relation to the constellation Virgo.
"crown of twelve stars" - the number 12 is a reference to all signs of the zodiac.
"she being with child" - Virgo (the virgin) is figuratively preparing to give birth to something.
"a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns" - the constellation Hydra (the Beast) largest of all constellations.
"tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven" - Hydra is very large indeed!
"and did cast them to the earth" - the earth is rotating and therefore the ancients perceived that the stars (angels) were cast to earth.
"and the dragon stood before the woman" - the location of Hydra in relation to Virgo.
"she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron" - the Sun (son) has risen.
"and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne" - the Sun continues to rise to its position of prominence in the sky.
"the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God" - Virgo is no longer visible because of the daylight.
"a thousand two hundred and threescore days" - typical calendar reference when dealing with astrological events.
"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon" - stars are changing positions in the sky.
"the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." - Hydra is falling below the horizon.
"the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan" - Hydra is gone, writer begins disinfo combining evil deities into one.
"he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him" - As I said, Hydra is gone.

Crowns, horns, and heads are not nations, cities, or churches, sorry but that concept is disinfo.

Matthew 28:20 (King James Version)
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


Matthew 28:20 (New International Version)
and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Note that in the KJV the Greek word "aeon" has been incorrectly translated as "world", whereas the NIV has translated this word correctly as "age". This is a classic astrological reference that refers to a period of time that equals approximately 2150 years. This unit of time is derived from the earth wobble which takes a total of 26,000 years (roughly) or 1 GREAT YEAR to come full circle. Divide that by 12 and you get a GREAT MONTH or AGE. Each age is named by the associated astrological sign of the zodiac that the Sun occupies for that 2150 years. Currently, from an exoteric point of view, we are at the end of the Age of Pisces leading into the Age of Aquarius (You know the song!). The Bible refers to this age of Aquarius here:

Luke 22:10 (King James Version)
And he said unto them, Behold, when ye are entered into the city, there shall a man meet you, bearing a pitcher of water; follow him into the house where he entereth in.

We can confirm this refers to Aquarius because in those days bearing water was a woman's job, yet Aquarius is a male. The philosophical significance of a man taking on the burden of a woman is representative of gender equality. The word "house" in this case is a reference to a sign of the zodiac, which is what Aquarius is.

So I hope you can see how the Protestant Christian community that believes the "world" is coming to an end has been deceived. I believe the deception was intentional since the proper translation seems obvious. Astrology is not evil, but it is a required key for deciphering scriptures.

Please comment and discuss.

[sandy]

The end is near but not as near as you think.

[VRob]

If it's from the Bible, it's as irrellevent as the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy.

Same thing IMO.

I'm still fascinated why people believe the bible is anything more than an old fictional book. :confused:

[superluminal]

If it's from the Bible, it's as irrellevent as the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy.

Same thing IMO.

I'm still fascinated why people believe the bible is anything more than an old fictional book. :confused:

Look at the avatar in the post above yours.

[QuestionEverything]

If it's from the Bible, it's as irrellevent as the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy.

Same thing IMO.

I'm still fascinated why people believe the bible is anything more than an old fictional book. :confused:

That is not the point of this topic. The topic clearly shows that Revelations 12 is primarily NON-fiction. It has simply been misinterpreted into fiction by Christian theologians.

[QuestionEverything]

The end is near but not as near as you think.

Sigh, did you even read my post? Apparently not! :spank:

[cosmictraveler]

When we die, the world as we know, it will end.

[battig1370]

The end is near when USA's top position in the world is seriously threatened.

[Vega]

Zep Tepi...every end has a new beginning!

[BlueMoose]

Excellent post QuestionEverything.
Been investigating same thing than you and thanks for pointing out some things that I havent been able to finish yet.
:thumbsup:

Links to relative discussions in Comparative Religion
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=70971&page=4
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=64602&page=4

Whats your take on Moses ~ Akhenaten ?

[sandy]

When we die, the world as we know, it will end.

Nope. People die. Every day. Life goes on and will....

The end is near when USA's top position in the world is seriously threatened.

Nope. Not then, either. It is my belief that the world will end when its creator has had enough of its inhabitants' bs.

[BlueMoose]

Nope. Not then, either. It is my belief that the world will end when its creator has had enough of its inhabitants' bs.

-I think we have pass that point already :cool:

[sandy]

-I think we have pass that point already :cool:

Nope. There are still a lot of Christians/believers here trying to save everyone else.

[QuestionEverything]

The end is near when USA's top position in the world is seriously threatened.

The U.S. is not the sovereign nation you think it is, so this point is moot.

[John99]

So QuestionEverything is an Astrologer.

And here is the proof:

"a woman clothed with the sun" - refers to the constellation Virgo.
"the moon under her feet" - describes the location of the moon in relation to the constellation Virgo.
"crown of twelve stars" - the number 12 is a reference to all signs of the zodiac.
"she being with child" - Virgo (the virgin) is figuratively preparing to give birth to something.
"a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns" - the constellation Hydra (the Beast) largest of all constellations.
"tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven" - Hydra is very large indeed!
"and did cast them to the earth" - the earth is rotating and therefore the ancients perceived that the stars (angels) were cast to earth.
"and the dragon stood before the woman" - the location of Hydra in relation to Virgo.
"she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron" - the Sun (son) has risen.
"and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne" - the Sun continues to rise to its position of prominence in the sky.
"the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God" - Virgo is no longer visible because of the daylight.
"a thousand two hundred and threescore days" - typical calendar reference when dealing with astrological events.
"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon" - stars are changing positions in the sky.
"the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." - Hydra is falling below the horizon.
"the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan" - Hydra is gone, writer begins disinfo combining evil deities into one.
"he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him" - As I said, Hydra is gone.

[orcot]

the end is near the end of cheap oil

[QuestionEverything]

Nope. People die. Every day. Life goes on and will....

No, he is right. For them the world truly has ended. This is what is so hard about death. Too bad theists like yourself have taken the gravity out of the meaning of death, maybe if you hadn't you could show more empathy instead of making statements like "life goes on".


Nope. Not then, either. It is my belief that the world will end when its creator has had enough of its inhabitants' bs.
You still haven't read my post have you? :spank:

[BlueMoose]

Nope. There are still a lot of Christians/believers here trying to save everyone else.

-Yes, I believe in mankind too, the change starts within.
-What actions have you done to save rest of the the world ?

[QuestionEverything]

So QuestionEverything is an Astrologer.

And here is the proof:

"a woman clothed with the sun" - refers to the constellation Virgo.
"the moon under her feet" - describes the location of the moon in relation to the constellation Virgo.
"crown of twelve stars" - the number 12 is a reference to all signs of the zodiac.
"she being with child" - Virgo (the virgin) is figuratively preparing to give birth to something.
"a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns" - the constellation Hydra (the Beast) largest of all constellations.
"tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven" - Hydra is very large indeed!
"and did cast them to the earth" - the earth is rotating and therefore the ancients perceived that the stars (angels) were cast to earth.
"and the dragon stood before the woman" - the location of Hydra in relation to Virgo.
"she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron" - the Sun (son) has risen.
"and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne" - the Sun continues to rise to its position of prominence in the sky.
"the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God" - Virgo is no longer visible because of the daylight.
"a thousand two hundred and threescore days" - typical calendar reference when dealing with astrological events.
"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon" - stars are changing positions in the sky.
"the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." - Hydra is falling below the horizon.
"the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan" - Hydra is gone, writer begins disinfo combining evil deities into one.
"he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him" - As I said, Hydra is gone.

I guess that depends on how you define astrologers. I don't believe in horoscopes and garbage like that, only in astrology's use by our ancestors as an instrument for making calendars and theology.

That's kind of like saying someone who studies politics is a politician. Yet I study politics, but am certainly NOT a politician.

[QuestionEverything]

Nope. There are still a lot of Christians/believers here trying to save everyone else.

I've already had to save myself once from being saved.

[QuestionEverything]

Excellent post QuestionEverything.
Been investigating same thing than you and thanks for pointing out some things that I havent been able to finish yet.
:thumbsup:

Links to relative discussions in Comparative Religion
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=70971&page=4
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=64602&page=4

Whats your take on Moses ~ Akhenaten ?

From what I've read the theory connecting the two is sound. Too many Jewish constructs of the Bible are borrowed from Egypt not to be suspicious of such a possibility anyway.

Egyptian Ark of the Contract comes to mind.
Or how about the name Israel, which is a composite word from Isis, Ra, and El (Venus, Sun, and Saturn).

[QuestionEverything]

When we die, the world as we know, it will end.

Yes, try telling Sandy that.

[BlueMoose]

I guess that depends on how you define astrologers. I don't believe in horoscopes and garbage like that, only in astrology's use by our ancestors as an instrument for making calendars and theology.

That's kind of like saying someone who studies politics is a politician. Yet I study politics, but am certainly NOT a politician.

-Well said. People are often mixing things and having opinions based on prejudices without knowledge about case in hand.

[QuestionEverything]

-Well said. People are often mixing things and having opinions based on prejudices without knowledge about case in hand.

Can't say I've never been guilty of that, so I'll have to give John a break by default! :)

[Medicine*Woman]

Sigh, did you even read my post? Apparently not! :spank:

*************
M*W: Please forgive Sandy. She's one taco shy of a combination plate.

[Donnal]

nah the end isnt near
its just the beginning of the end
to get to the end could take a few years
and with air borne aids coming soon well it still wont be the end but the beginning of the end
plenty of people gotta die first before you can say its the end

[QuestionEverything]

*************
M*W: Please forgive Sandy. She's one taco shy of a combination plate.

:roflmao: I'll have to remember that one!

[QuestionEverything]

Well I don't see anyone disputing this so I guess it goes unchallenged then, pretty much as I thought it would! :thumbsup:

[QuestionEverything]

The lack of curiosity in this forum is apparent in that no one has bothered to ask me the $64,000 question! And that question would be...

Of what date is Revelations 12 speaking?

[Enmos]

The lack of curiosity in this forum is apparent in that no one has bothered to ask me the $64,000 question! And that question would be...

Of what date is Revelations 12 speaking?

Again, very interesting.
So what is this date ?
Seems they 'confused' the end of this age with the end of the world then ?

[QuestionEverything]

Again, very interesting.
So what is this date ?
Seems they 'confused' the end of this age with the end of the world then ?

9/11 :(

[Enmos]

9/11 :(

For real ? So it's the age of Aquarius now ?

[QuestionEverything]

For real ? So it's the age of Aquarius now ?

9/11 almost every year:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Calendar

Not yet by my understanding. And actually that is the age based on exoteric (geocentric) astrology, not esoteric (heliocentric) astrology. The esoteric one is what matters since that is what the elites follow.

[Cyperium]

When we die, the world as we know, it will end.It won't end to others, only to us, and only if we would stop existing.

Do you really think that the brain is the only thing that can make us exist?

How many other possibilities could there be?

Do all of those possibilities involve a physical brain?

Or are we the brain or something else?

Yeah, I know, illogical questions huh?

[QuestionEverything]

It won't end to others, only to us, and only if we would stop existing.

Do you really think that the brain is the only thing that can make us exist?

How many other possibilities could there be?

Do all of those possibilities involve a physical brain?

Or are we the brain or something else?

Yeah, I know, illogical questions huh?

Actually I don't think those questions are illogical at all.

Have you heard of the Electric Universe Theory (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4773590301316220374)?

I think it has more scientific merit than the Big Bang/Relativity, and would explain things like ESP and dreams of the future. We may have these abilities for very scientifically explainable reasons, like that we are connected by an unseen current of electricity.

Ever sat next to someone and them say something and you were thinking it just before they said it? Could certainly explain that too!

The Buddhist idea that we are part of some energy may actually be the closest thing to truth in any religion out there. And that energy just might be electricity!

[superluminal]

Have you heard of the Electric Universe Theory (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4773590301316220374)?

I think it has more scientific merit than the Big Bang/Relativity...
:eek: YIKES! :eek:

[BlueMoose]

I´m also with buddhist in this one.
I think Tesla was on something...

[QuestionEverything]

:eek: YIKES! :eek:

What's crazier, that the planets are held in place by electric forces or that the infinitely weak force that is gravity requires us to believe in scientific fairy tails like black holes and dark matter? None of which can be seen or proven to exist!

The Relativity scientists rely on these phony inventions to "fill the gaps" of their faulty mathematics. But hey don't take my word for it, even Einstein didn't buy Relativity because it didn't take electricity into account, and he created the theory!

Check the link in my previous post, you might be surprised what the scientists there have to say.

[QuestionEverything]

I´m also with buddhist in this one.
I think Tesla was on something...

Yes I have heard Tesla may have solved the energy problem, but the technology was buried. On this I only have heresay though so I won't stand by it as a theory, but I would like to look into it.

[superluminal]

What's crazier, that the planets are held in place by electric forces or that the infinitely weak force that is gravity requires us to believe in scientific fairy tails like black holes and dark matter? None of which can be seen or proven to exist!

The Relativity scientists rely on these phony inventions to "fill the gaps" of their faulty mathematics. But hey don't take my word for it, even Einstein didn't buy Relativity because it didn't take electricity into account, and he created the theory!

Check the link in my previous post, you might be surprised what the scientists there have to say.
Oh, I've seen it. And I'm a little sad for you that you don't have a better grasp of the physics and mathematics behind modern science. You seem like a fairly rational guy too.

Shame.

Carry on...

[superluminal]

But hey don't take my word for it, even Einstein didn't buy Relativity because it didn't take electricity into account, and he created the theory!
Oh boy. A shame...

And from the way you talk about it, there's no hope for you either. You're a true "believer". Who'd of thought it?

:bawl:

[QuestionEverything]

Oh, I've seen it. And I'm a little sad for you that you don't have a better grasp of the physics and mathematics behind modern science. You seem like a fairly rational guy too.

Shame.

Carry on...

If you can show me a source of some solid damning evidence that disproves the theory I am open to it.

[QuestionEverything]

Oh boy. A shame...

And from the way you talk about it, there's no hope for you either. You're a true "believer". Who'd of thought it?

:bawl:

Not necessarily, if someone has done a good job disproving the theory I will listen to it.

But are you aware of the many known severe anomalies with red shift? Because for me that is very damning evidence against the Big Bang.

[superluminal]

If you can show me a source of some solid damning evidence that disproves the theory I am open to it.
As you well know, the burden of proof rests on the claimant.

Relativity and QM have been validated in the most spectacular fashion for more than 50 years. Cosmic expansion and CMB and cosmic abundances of elements were predicted by these theories before they were discovered. A Triumph!

What you are worried about are simply features of a few aspects of phenomena that need refinement. There are hundreds of wackjobs out there that don't understand science at all and think they have the "answers" to problems (ones that science dosen't even have!).

What exactly worries you about black holes (which we will soon be able to see directly, that is, the event horizon) and the Big Bang model (which is highly predictive and successful) and the existence of dark matter and energy, which certainly exist in some form?

[superluminal]

Not necessarily, if someone has done a good job disproving the theory I will listen to it.
Not our job.

But are you aware of the many known severe anomalies with red shift? Because for me that is very damning evidence against the Big Bang.
I'm not aware of any even moderate, let alone "severe" problems with redshift, and I know a lot about it.

What's the problem?

[BlueMoose]

What exactly worries you about black holes (which we will soon be able to see directly, that is, the event horizon) and the Big Bang model (which is highly predictive and successful) and the existence of dark matter and energy, which certainly exist in some form?

-I´m partly amusing myself but could it be that big bang and blackhole are different sides of the same coin.
Thats my theory, the eternal Shivas dance, destruction ~ creation, ying ~ yang, darkness ~ light, the cosmic wheel ? Multiple/Infinite universes ?

[QuestionEverything]

Not our job.


I'm not aware of any even moderate, let alone "severe" problems with redshift, and I know a lot about it.

What's the problem?

Here's a few from Halton C. Arp's site:

Fingers of God in an Expanding Universe (http://www.haltonarp.com/articles/fingers_of_god_in_an_expanding_universe)

Observational Cosmology: From High Redshift Galaxies to the Blue Pacific (http://www.haltonarp.com/articles/from_high_redshift_galaxies_to_the_blue_pacific)

Faint Quasars Give Conclusive Evidence for Non-Velocity Redshifts (http://www.haltonarp.com/articles/faint_quasars_give_conclusive_evidence_for_non_vel ocity_redshifts)

[QuestionEverything]

And another:
Quasar with enormous redshift found embedded in nearby spiral galaxy with far lower redshift: unsolvable riddle for big bang astronomy (http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2005/0112quasar.asp)

[BlueMoose]

Very good document, thank you. I´m buying it, the beauty of the plasma electric theory lays in its simplicity.
:thumbsup:

[QuestionEverything]

Very good document, thank you. I´m buying it, the beauty of the plasma electric theory lays in its simplicity.
:thumbsup:

That's exactly how I viewed it. Doesn't need any fantasy creations to work either.

[superluminal]

And another:
Quasar with enormous redshift found embedded in nearby spiral galaxy with far lower redshift: unsolvable riddle for big bang astronomy (http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2005/0112quasar.asp)
This quasar is not in the galaxy shown. It's behind it.

And you do realize that you are basing your entire cosmological understanding on one or two guys with theories that address non-problems to the rest of the thousands of astronomers in the world? I read your other links and find nothing of substance there.

What mathematical predictions does this electric theory make that improve upon relativistic cosmology? Does it make any predictions?

[superluminal]

And using an Answers In Genesis site? For shame...

[QuestionEverything]

This quasar is not in the galaxy shown. It's behind it.

And you do realize that you are basing your entire cosmological understanding on one or two guys with theories that address non-problems to the rest of the thousands of astronomers in the world? I read your other links and find nothing of substance there.

What mathematical predictions does this electric theory make that improve upon relativistic cosmology? Does it make any predictions?

The quasar certainly looks like it's in front of the galaxy to me.

If you watch that video one of the scientists in there talks about predicting the reaction of that comet experiment (don't ask me what it was it's in the video) and was unsurprised by the explosive flash caused by it. The other scientists were baffled, but they don't subscribe to his theory, so I guess they would be.

I think you might want to re-look at the "fingers of God" article which for me shows SERIOUS problems with redshift.

Halton C. Arp is not alone, but he is cataloging anomalies on red shift to build the case. Either way, why not try to build a case against redshift? Isn't that the point of science? If something is true no case against it can stand. If you fail to build a case against it then you help prove it's validity.

What Arp is arguing is that redshift is greater in newly formed stars and, if this is true, that means that redshift has more variables involved than just speed and distance.

So I ask you, what is so irrational about that argument? Have I called upon some Jesus to solve the problem?

Truth is a binary thing, it's either true, or it's false. But when you ask a question like, how was the universe created, and then give me a binary choice of Big Bang or Big Boss, that's when I ask, what are the other possibilities?

[battig1370]

--- "this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. -> Matt. 24:14-15.

"the end will come" --- What end will come? The end of this world's capitalist economic system.

[QuestionEverything]

And using an Answers In Genesis site? For shame...

Yeah I couldn't find my original source for that one. I think they copied it there! :cool:

[QuestionEverything]

--- "this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. -> Matt. 24:14-15.

"the end will come" --- What end will come? The end of this world's capitalist economic system.

The end of the Age of Pisces. Beginning of the Age of Aquarius.

[superluminal]

I think you might want to re-look at the "fingers of God" article which for me shows SERIOUS problems with redshift.
It's a series of distributed data points that he claims astronomers class as a single supercluster. Do they? And did you also know that the farther you go out to measure, the less accurate your points may be, so there are fewer solidly confirmed data points? This is astronomers being scrupulously honest and Arp being a disengenuous wacknut.

Halton C. Arp is not alone,
Yes, he is.

but he is cataloging anomalies on red shift to build the case.
So is every other actual astronomer out there (hundreds or more) who makes this their specialty. You know what the handful of anomalous observations mean to them? They have a bad measurement. Or some other unknown conditions (like a quasar that "appears" to be in front of a nearby galaxy) are interfering. You have .01% of observations that don't quite fit, and the reasons are far from settled, yet two or three nuts go on a rampage to demolish fundamental physics because what they really don't like are the facts of nature as they are. An expanding universe pisses them off. Like it did Einstein, Hoyle, et al... Tough shit. They'll get over it.

Either way, why not try to build a case against redshift? Isn't that the point of science?
NO! The point is to learn new things and find theories that fit the observed data. The better the fit, the more likely the theory is correct. A teeny percentage of observations in a field (astronomy) with many unknowns and no way to control for them means nothing. Ever hear of the deicrepancy between the ages of the oldest stars and the age of the universe? Look it up.

If something is true no case against it can stand. If you fail to build a case against it then you help prove it's validity.
Good. Have fun. But that's only what wackjobs do. Actual scientists know what are real problems with a theory and focus on those. Like the flat rotation curves of galaxies, or the apparent incompatibility of gravity with QM.


What Arp is arguing is that redshift is greater in newly formed stars and, if this is true, that means that redshift has more variables involved than just speed and distance.

So I ask you, what is so irrational about that argument?
Everything. There is zero convincing evidence that there is a fundamental problem with our understanding of how redshift occurrs. Is it that it's so exciting to think that there's something fundamentally wrong with everything? If you only knew what us being wrong about how redshift happens...

But that's no argument. There's zero reason for real astronomers to question the extremely well known machanisms of redshift. If you all of a sudden find incontrovertible proof that redshift dosen't work the way we think (akin to finding out that not only were you adopted, but you were really raised by wolves for your entire childhood) then we'll talk.

The reason that these few nuts are alone is not beacuse they have "controversial" theories, but that they are ignoring the basic idea that science isn't about being pissed off and coming up with counter theories just because you are so pissed off.

[(Q)]

Here's a few from Halton C. Arp's site

Arp is a well known crank. His mathematics have been refuted as has his assertions. And although Sup says he is alone, he does have followers, equally oblivious.

[QuestionEverything]

Arp is a well known crank. His mathematics have been refuted as has his assertions. And although Sup says he is alone, he does have followers, equally oblivious.

You say he has been refuted, can you please post a link or two with some convincing arguments refuting him. I'm not saying "I'm right and your wrong", but I need a little more than your word to be convinced.

[QuestionEverything]

superluminal,

what is your opinion of the fingers of God page? He's saying that redshift makes it appear as if Earth is the center of the universe somehow! Can you please respond to that?

[QuestionEverything]

Arp is a well known crank. His mathematics have been refuted as has his assertions. And although Sup says he is alone, he does have followers, equally oblivious.

If he's right he wouldn't be the first "crank" to turn out right.

Galileo was a crank, Copernicus, etc.

[superluminal]

If he's right he wouldn't be the first "crank" to turn out right.

Galileo was a crank, Copernicus, etc.
Wrong. They actually had scientific evidence that could be tested. It was and they were vindicated (after the church gave up being assholes, at least temporarily).

[superluminal]

superluminal,

what is your opinion of the fingers of God page? He's saying that redshift makes it appear as if Earth is the center of the universe somehow! Can you please respond to that?
It does! That's why it's soooo funny!

Every point in an expanding universe appears to itself to be at the "center". Surely you've read enough about modern cosmology to make a value judgement in favor of "electric" cosmology and such? Yes...? No...?

Hmmm...

Every large scale structure in the universe appears to be moving away from us. As it would to an observer a billion ly away. Google the "raisin bread" or "balloon" analogies.

[(Q)]

You say he has been refuted, can you please post a link or two with some convincing arguments refuting him. I'm not saying "I'm right and your wrong", but I need a little more than your word to be convinced.

http://xxx.lanl.gov/pdf/astro-ph/0310533
http://xxx.lanl.gov/pdf/astro-ph/0309551
http://xxx.lanl.gov/pdf/astro-ph/0309274
http://xxx.lanl.gov/pdf/astro-ph/0308443
http://xxx.lanl.gov/pdf/astro-ph/0308177
http://xxx.lanl.gov/pdf/astro-ph/0308041
http://xxx.lanl.gov/pdf/astro-ph/0307418
http://xxx.lanl.gov/pdf/astro-ph/0305382
http://xxx.lanl.gov/pdf/astro-ph/0305298
http://xxx.lanl.gov/pdf/astro-ph/0305093

[(Q)]

I'm still looking for a couple more papers which look at Arp's models and refutes them point by point. So many papers, so little organization.

[QuestionEverything]

It does! That's why it's soooo funny!

Every point in an expanding universe appears to itself to be at the "center". Surely you've read enough about modern cosmology to make a value judgement in favor of "electric" cosmology and such? Yes...? No...?

Hmmm...

Every large scale structure in the universe appears to be moving away from us. As it would to an observer a billion ly away. Google the "raisin bread" or "balloon" analogies.

That's not what he's saying. He's saying that, according to observations with redshift, objects are clustered in elongated formations that actually point to observers on earth. Did you read that part. I'm sorry but ff that is not a bogus claim, it destroys redshift as a tool.

[Gustav]

i like it
allows for gluttony and debauchery

/mottofied

[superluminal]

That's not what he's saying. He's saying that, according to observations with redshift, objects are clustered in elongated formations that actually point to observers on earth. Did you read that part. I'm sorry but ff that is not a bogus claim, it destroys redshift as a tool.
Observational bias. Did you read my post about the increasing error bars on more distant observations?

[superluminal]

I'm sorry but ff that is not a bogus claim, it destroys redshift as a tool.
It's a bogus claim. You should be able to research it for yourself.