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coberst
12-09-07, 05:27 AM
How can we reason empathetically?

Empathy—the imaginative projection of a subjective state into an object so that the object appears to be infused with it. I can be empathetic with my neighbor by using my imagination to “walk a mile in the shoes” of my neighbor.

Most all of my formal education, I suspect your own also, has been didactic in nature. Didactic education is a method of “teaching by telling” and rote memorization.

My engineering education and most all college level education is didactic. Most college education is designed to train an individual to perform a very specific task. The engineer, accountant, doctor, etc is told what is the logic of performance for a particular profession. After years of this indoctrination the graduate is prepared to solve the problems encountered in the particular chosen field.

Such training is an efficient method for utilizing the scientific method to solve problems in a prescribed frame of reference. It is the type of education designed for a productive and efficient technology. Our technological accomplishments are proof of this. It is not, however, the type of education that prepares the individual for most of the problems encountered by society or self.

Most important issues are not simply matters of fact, nor are they essentially matters of faith, taste, or preferences. They are matters that call for reasoned reflection and sound judgments. They are problems that can be considered from differing perspectives, from different frames of reference. Often a values issue requires at least two perspectives: is it good morality and is it good economics.

How does one structure thinking to produce reasoned reflection and sound judgment in those matters that make up most of life’s multifaceted concerns?

Governor Elect Arnold S. must develop a budget for the state of California very quickly. Let us imagine the sessions that he holds with his advisors leading up to the finished budget.

Arnold holds his first meeting with six advisors each with a different expertise; each a strong advocate for a very important aspect of the welfare of the state.

Arnold starts off with the first advisor on his left who strongly suggests budget A is the best for the state. Going clockwise around the table the next advisor recognizing important aspects of the suggestion of the first advisor presents budget B as the better budget. Budget B contains aspects of budget A but also carries strong suggestions in accord with the second advisor’s area of expertise.

Each advisor in turn synthesizes the budget proposed by others, adding his articles of improvement. At the end of the first session there is a first draft of a budget. Each succeeding session synthesizes the previous results with new inputs until finally a budget of compromises is developed.

What we see in this imagined budget planning effort is a dialogical interchange encompassed within a dialectical process to produce a result. The dialogue is each advisor placing their argument before the group. The dialectic is the synthesizing of a particular proposal with another input thus creating a new proposal, which in turn is subjected to a continuing repetition. Proposal A is synthesized with proposal B producing proposal C and C is then synthesized with D to produce E etc.

The dialogical-dialectical process for each of us cannot contain all the participants that Arnold has for the state budget. When each Californian decides what the budget should be that individual must, in most cases, internalize the activities.

One can, by reading the papers, discover various opinions that others might have regarding the matter. However, it is up to the individual, in the solitude of her intellect, to provide the various actors. The enlightened citizen must create the multifaceted argument internally. The individual must empathetically create the dialogue and the dialectic within her own mind.

Imagine the number of “frames of reference” one would bring to bear on the issue of the comatose woman in Florida. If one becomes conscious of this issue and brings his/her intellect to bear on this issue s/he might be surprised by the possible ways to analyze this matter. One frame of reference we might not have thought about. That, of course, is the issue of our politicians injecting themselves, for their personal advantage, into the issue.

Do you have an opinion regarding the statement in bold?

Spud Emperor
12-09-07, 05:36 AM
Coberst,
I'm trying to empathise with your question and the truth is I just can't.
It's too convoluted.

Tnerb
12-09-07, 10:07 AM
Lol.
he always gets statements like that.

For once, It makes sense to consider why it is, and to ask questions or poke arguments to some of the things he is saying. The only problem I see with it personally is that it is hard to make a valid point. The thing about empathy is simple enough but most people aren't really willing to read all of that stuff.

Of course an an 'existential' level or whatever you would consider it, morality, or ethics or whatever the words are, that it is entirely natural for the citizen to create the behavior in his or her self oh bah.

I guess you have a slight point at least studemperor.

greenberg
12-09-07, 11:04 AM
The enlightened citizen must create the multifaceted argument internally. The individual must empathetically create the dialogue and the dialectic within her own mind.

People do that anyway. The difference is in the degree of how much they take into account and what criteria they use.

coberst
12-09-07, 12:07 PM
I gave an example of what many life problems are like. Many life problems have multifaceted dimensions. For example take the problem of abortion. There are many dimensions from which to consider this question. If I wish to truly comprehend this problem I must become empathetic with many different points of view. I might need to consider this from the ‘to be’ father’s view, from the ‘to be’ mother’s view, from the parents of both parties view, from the moral aspect, from the economic aspect, etc.

How do I, as an enlightened person, get into the shoes of these different participants so that I might comprehend where each is coming from? I can do this by acts of empathy.

To comprehend this matter you might need to get a good comprehension of what empathy is all about. A visit to Wickie might be useful or a Google search just for you to learn the importance and nature of empathy.

S.A.M.
12-09-07, 04:23 PM
How do you define empathy?

Tnerb
12-09-07, 06:11 PM
Empathy?

He's saying be empathitic towards the computer and the information in general.
I already knew that

heliocentric
12-09-07, 09:59 PM
Yeah there's a definitely link between understanding your own internal dialog and being able to empathise with other people.
I useally find its the people who are incredibly aware of their own internal processes and mental machinations that are most able to empathise with other people.
You can only really infer other people's emotions and feelings through the examination of your own. If youre completely cut-off from yourself, youre probably cut off from everyone else.
So im probably (in my own convoluted way) arguing for self-knowledge as a public good rather than just some form of morally obsolete navel-gazing. (when it's done right of course)

coberst
12-10-07, 03:14 AM
How do you define empathy?


Empathy—the imaginative projection of a subjective state into an object so that the object appears to be infused with it. I can be empathetic with my neighbor by using my imagination to “walk a mile in the shoes” of my neighbor.

coberst
12-10-07, 03:18 AM
Yeah there's a definitely link between understanding your own internal dialog and being able to empathise with other people.
I useally find its the people who are incredibly aware of their own internal processes and mental machinations that are most able to empathise with other people.
You can only really infer other people's emotions and feelings through the examination of your own. If youre completely cut-off from yourself, youre probably cut off from everyone else.
So im probably (in my own convoluted way) arguing for self-knowledge as a public good rather than just some form of morally obsolete navel-gazing. (when it's done right of course)


I agree, self knowledge is the key.

I defiantly think it is the case that the more suffering each of us endures the more empathetic we become. That is a heavy price we pay for growing our ability to comprehend this very human ability of empathy. Some say that the artist’s ability is dependent upon the amount of suffering endured and I can very well see how that may be true.

"Know thyself" is good advice, self-actualizing self-learning is how we can do that.

greenberg
12-10-07, 03:34 AM
Yeah there's a definitely link between understanding your own internal dialog and being able to empathise with other people.
I useally find its the people who are incredibly aware of their own internal processes and mental machinations that are most able to empathise with other people.
You can only really infer other people's emotions and feelings through the examination of your own. If youre completely cut-off from yourself, youre probably cut off from everyone else.
So im probably (in my own convoluted way) arguing for self-knowledge as a public good rather than just some form of morally obsolete navel-gazing. (when it's done right of course)

I wish this were so always.

It has often been my experience that people are just plain mean or have a different agenda - and that this is why they refuse to "put themselves in the other person's shoes". They understand the other person's problem, but they don't care about them.

Empathy isn't enough to "walk a mile in someone else's shoes". Good will is an additional requirement.

greenberg
12-10-07, 03:38 AM
I defiantly think it is the case that the more suffering each of us endures the more empathetic we become.

(You mean "definitely"?)

I don't think it is true that the more suffering each of us endures the more empathetic we become.

Suffering as such is bewildering; left to itself, it leads to violence, hostility.

Suffering needs to be understood, the right way, before it can serve as some basis for empathy.

coberst
12-10-07, 08:50 AM
(You mean "definitely"?)

I don't think it is true that the more suffering each of us endures the more empathetic we become.

Suffering as such is bewildering; left to itself, it leads to violence, hostility.

Suffering needs to be understood, the right way, before it can serve as some basis for empathy.

I can only observe and make a judgment based upon that observation. My experience indicates that my statement is correct. You may be correct.