Why is suicide a bad thing for the "faithful"?

[superluminal]

Something in another thread got me to thinking.

Why is there such a strong prohibition against suicide in religions (at least the ones I know about)?

Especially at times of suffering, when death is certain (terminal cancer, etc.) why do religions still balk at the concept?

If the faithful are so certain that death is just a transition to being in the presence of their god, why all of the fear and prohibitions on speeding the inevitable along a bit?

I get that god supposedly says something like "Don't take your life. I gave it to you, and I'll be damned if anyone but me will take it away".

But why? Given the fact that religions are convoluted man-made labrynths of self delusion, why put such a limit on going to see the Big Guy?

[clusteringflux]

I don't think you should take others with you when you do it. Not in the name of your god.

[lightgigantic]

Something in another thread got me to thinking.

Why is there such a strong prohibition against suicide in religions (at least the ones I know about)?

Especially at times of suffering, when death is certain (terminal cancer, etc.) why do religions still balk at the concept?

If the faithful are so certain that death is just a transition to being in the presence of their god, why all of the fear and prohibitions on speeding the inevitable along a bit?

I get that god supposedly says something like "Don't take your life. I gave it to you, and I'll be damned if anyone but me will take it away".
basically it boils down to what you suggest - although there is the added feature that the act of dying is not sufficient to grant spiritual perfection (you don't find any scripture that advocates "just die").
But why? Given the fact that religions are convoluted man-made labrynths of self delusion, why put such a limit on going to see the Big Guy?
lol - its a given fact or a tentative opinion?
as for the limit, its something we place on ourselves (usually with great delight)

[Grantywanty]

Something in another thread got me to thinking.

Why is there such a strong prohibition against suicide in religions (at least the ones I know about)?

Secular laws tend to frown on suicide. Why we are all going to turn into nothing anyway?

[Non-Logical-Idea-Guy]

God could see it as murder, murder of his creation, doesn't matter who did it, its still murder as you are technically his creation, his property, you are wronging him.

Alternatively, many faiths believe your life is the time you are judged, if you skip this judging porcess then you gotta go to hell :D

[VitalOne]

Because suicide gets you into hell

[cosmictraveler]

Everyone is committing suicide as soon as they are born. They smoke, drink,

eat excessively and eat the wrong types of food. They are always doing

things that reduce their lifespan by polluting, spraying chemicals, building in

areas that are prone to natural disasters and so on. So just because people

don't just kill themselves quickly they still are doing it slowly.

[Non-Logical-Idea-Guy]

nature already kills them slowly though...

[cosmictraveler]

nature already kills them slowly though...

I agree BUT humans are quickening the process on purpose by doing the

things I've stated so therefore they are committing suicide unnaturally to

begin with it would seem to me.

[Non-Logical-Idea-Guy]

does that count as suicie though? I mean does it really? you can argue both sides.

[VitalOne]

Everyone is committing suicide as soon as they are born. They smoke, drink,

eat excessively and eat the wrong types of food. They are always doing

things that reduce their lifespan by polluting, spraying chemicals, building in

areas that are prone to natural disasters and so on. So just because people

don't just kill themselves quickly they still are doing it slowly.

Yeah but that's indirect and not nearly as bad as suicide

[superluminal]

I just realized that certain sects of islam encourage suicide by bomb or plane or whatever, preferably combined with mass murder.

Is this a progressive trend in religion or a transient anomaly?

[Medicine*Woman]

Everyone is committing suicide as soon as they are born. They smoke, drink,

eat excessively and eat the wrong types of food. They are always doing

things that reduce their lifespan by polluting, spraying chemicals, building in

areas that are prone to natural disasters and so on. So just because people

don't just kill themselves quickly they still are doing it slowly.
*************
M*W: I totally agree. If we're not busy being born, then we are busy dying. Suicide attempt is a crime, punishable in a court of law if you don't complete the act of suicide, make sure when you do it to make it work. Otherwise, you could end up in jail or the looney bin.

Makes me wonder why it's not a crime to eat fast food, drink heavily and do drugs, since that's what we do to kill ourselves more slowly. Fact is, we're dying from the moment we're born. But to speed it up instantaneously is a crime. However, I agree with assisted suicide in the case of terminal illness. That's better than being on life support with no hope for the future. Terry Schiavo was in a sense tortured by her parents. Death brings peace... eventually, to everyone.

M*W's Friendly Atheist Quote of the Day:

"If you believe that there is a God, a God that made your body, and yet you think that you can do anything with that body that's dirty, then the fault lies with the manufacturer." ~ Lenny Bruce

[Adstar]

Something in another thread got me to thinking.

Why is there such a strong prohibition against suicide in religions (at least the ones I know about)?

Because i believe God gave life and it should be God who removes life. Also suicide is just another name for self murder. We are not to take a life and that includes ourselves. We do not own our own life it is given to us by God and it is His to take away at his discretion.



If the faithful are so certain that death is just a transition to being in the presence of their god, why all of the fear and prohibitions on speeding the inevitable along a bit?

Yes we are certain that death is just a transition but there is no fear, I am against suicide not because of fear of death but because i believe God should be in control of death.



I get that god supposedly says something like "Don't take your life. I gave it to you, and I'll be damned if anyone but me will take it away".

But why? Given the fact that religions are convoluted man-made labrynths of self delusion, why put such a limit on going to see the Big Guy?

LOL everyone dies, So there is no limit on going to see God. We are not talking about stopping anyone seeing God, we are talking about living the life we have been given.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[scorpius]

Why is there such a strong prohibition against suicide in religions (at least the ones I know about)?

Especially at times of suffering, when death is certain (terminal cancer, etc.) why do religions still balk at the concept?

b/c they all want to have a bigger tribe to conquer all the other religious tribes/cults and allowing even one suicide of a terminaly ill person might get others to start thinking,hey wtf I wanna get to heaven sooner why wait,
and next thing you know they all start snuffing themselves out and youll have no tribe left..

[Orleander]

Because its murder. The person committing suicide isn't only killing himself, he's killing a family. Its selfish. I understand the mental pain the person may be in, but what about the pain he puts his family through with his self murder?

[Enmos]

No the real reason is because God said so.

[Orleander]

No the real reason is because God said so.

yeah, where exactly did he do that? Because if its that 10 commandment thing, then it should cover war as well.

[scorpius]

What happens after death is currently unverifiable....
go look at some dead decomposing corpses and see what happens ;)

also you could try comunicating with those dead peoples souls,IF you believe you have soul and they have souls,you should be able to,right?

its all wishfull thinking aint it
see
www.skepdic.com/hotreading.html

[Enmos]

yeah, where exactly did he do that? Because if its that 10 commandment thing, then it should cover war as well.

I stand corrected..

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide#Religious
In most forms of Christianity, suicide is considered a sin, based mainly on the writings of influential Christian thinkers of the Middle Ages, such as St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas. Their arguments center around the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" (made applicable under the New Covenant by Jesus in Matthew 19:18), as well as the idea that life is a gift given by God which should not be spurned, and that suicide is against the "natural order" and thus interferes with God's master plan for the world. However, it is believed that mental illness or grave fear of suffering diminishes the responsibility of the one completing suicide. Suicide was not considered a sin under the Byzantine Christian code of Justinian, for instance. There is no verse in the Bible speaking against killing one’s self. Counter-arguments include the following: that the sixth commandment is more accurately translated as "thou shalt not murder", not necessarily applying to the self; that taking one's own life no more violates God's plan than does curing a disease; and that a number of suicides by followers of God are recorded in the Bible with no dire condemnation.

[sandy]

Suicide is bad for everyone--faithful and non. It's the coward's way out of life's problems. It's the coward's way out of illness. It's not the answer--for anyone.

[Enmos]

Suicide is bad for everyone--faithful and non. It's the coward's way out of life's problems. It's the coward's way out of illness. It's not the answer--for anyone.

I agree, but people who are actually thinking of committing suicide don't see that.

[Orleander]

Its weird because I think more people are afraid to kill themselves. My dad couldn't do it. Bedridden, unable to walk, wearing a diaper, having a stranger bathe him...still couldn't do it.
That kind of suicide is different than someone who is sad.

[Enmos]

We are programmed to live, to survive.

[Orleander]

so is it cowardly to go against how you are programmed?

[Enmos]

so is it cowardly to go against how you are programmed?

Well, I didn't agree with that part particularly. More with that it's not the answer.
I think it's pretty courageous to kill yourself actually.

[superluminal]

Suicide is bad for everyone--faithful and non. It's the coward's way out of life's problems. It's the coward's way out of illness. It's not the answer--for anyone.
Hmmm... so it's cowardice.

I think that's a poor choice of words. Well, maybe not for you, the pious elite.

Do you ever take aspirin for a headache? Put ice on a sprained ankle? Does this make you a coward?

When the pain is so terrible and the end is inevtable, what's "cowardly" about speeding along the end we all face?

When the elderly person has lost all control of bodily functions and every last shred of dignity, and requests a quiet passing in the night, what's more noble - granting this dignified rquest or clinging to some ritualistic prohibition based on idiotic superstition?

[Medicine*Woman]

Because its murder. The person committing suicide isn't only killing himself, he's killing a family. Its selfish. I understand the mental pain the person may be in, but what about the pain he puts his family through with his self murder?
*************
M*W: If there are mental/emotional problems, the family should intervene. Sadly, that doesn't always remedy the situation. Of course it hurts the family. That's a pain that will never go away. It is selfish. In the case of assisted suicide (hospice care), it's a family decision. If you have a loved one and their physician recommends hospice care--be sure to know that their death will be assisted medically (with a killer dose of morphine, for example). "Hospice care" is just another more socially accepted word for "assisted suicide." Hospice care doesn't provide a facility for long-term care.

[Orleander]

I know there is a huge difference between mental illness and someone dying. My friends brother killed himself when his girlfriend caught him cheating, my college roommate's brother shot himself when he caught his wife cheating and my ex husband tried when I divorced him. In all three cases it was emotional blackmail.
My father thought of it and planned for it when he was dying. It was totally different.

[Medicine*Woman]

I know there is a huge difference between mental illness and someone dying. My friends brother killed himself when his girlfriend caught him cheating, my college roommate's brother shot himself when he caught his wife cheating and my ex husband tried when I divorced him. In all three cases it was emotional blackmail.
My father thought of it and planned for it when he was dying. It was totally different.
*************
M*W: Suicide is the total denial of oneself. It is never right. It's the cowardly thing to do. Life, itself, is the most important thing... not the people you meet along the way, although they are important in your emotional growth (or should be). However, talk of suicide should be taken seriously. Most people who talk about it are crying for help. A person who is bound and determined to take their own life will usually say nothing. It's important to know what is going on with your family members and close friends. That's not being nosy or meddling. It could save the life of someone who has lost the will to live.

[superluminal]

*************
M*W: Suicide is the total denial of oneself. It is never right. It's the cowardly thing to do. Life, itself, is the most important thing...

I think this is too far reaching. I agree that in an otherwise healthy human being, depression and mental illness must be treated. But does quality of existence mean nothing? Your stance sounds almost religious.

In a terminal situation or one in which the person is so compromised that they choose to not continue with what the rest of us blithly call "life" why is it not a clear personal choice for the person to make?

I think the cowards here are the ones who will be left behind and can't stand facing their own grief and loss, even if it means making their "loved one" suffer.

Cowards.

[Enmos]

ROFL

Do you even know what the Bible is? The Catholic church had selectively chosen Gospels and canonical scriptures and compiled it into the Bible. I didn't get it from the Bible, but the actual Gospel (which the Catholic church chose to be in the Bible)


No one's saying to be cold and callus, I'm just saying that someone who's filled with sorrow shouldn't commit suicide

Sorrow and grief doesn't solve any problem, nor does suppressing sorrow and grief, thats my position

I highly doubt that but I can't check if you are truthful of course.
Anyhow, the exact same thing is in the bible. That gospel is in the bible.
So what, do you handpick the gospels you believe in and discard the ones you don't like ?

[KennyJC]

Yes we are certain that death is just a transition but there is no fear, I am against suicide not because of fear of death but because i believe God should be in control of death.


What if gods method in killing you off is months of prolonged agony which your sane mind and healthy body can not imagine?

Either way, if you die naturally or do yourself in, you are just going to turn into fertilizer. Since there is no evidence of god, heaven or hell... or even the faintest reason to believe that suicide gets you into hell, in moments of extreme pain, rational people aren't going to entertain these fables.

[KennyJC]

Suicide is bad for everyone--faithful and non. It's the coward's way out of life's problems. It's the coward's way out of illness. It's not the answer--for anyone.

The arrogance of someone with a sane mind and healthy body...:rolleyes:

[Adstar]

What if gods method in killing you off is months of prolonged agony which your sane mind and healthy body can not imagine?

Well in these modern times prolonged agony is not unavoidable and can be treated with good palliative care. But in any case, if it is Gods will that one must go through pain then pain is what one must endure.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[greenberg]

But does quality of existence mean nothing?

Exactly.

For example, if I ever get rabies or a resistant strain of TB or some other fatal contagious disease, I hope I will have the presence of mind to end my life.
People with such diseases are ticking time bombs, a severe threat to others. Everyone is better off if they don't live anymore.

[Orleander]

...Everyone is better off if they don't live anymore.

that suit looks good on you.

[Grantywanty]

I really can't believe the smugness and lack of sympathy exhibited by many people on this thread.

Suicide is cowardly AND selfish and a complete denial of oneself?
Hm.
There's a problem with this.

[kaneda]

The problem with suicide in religion is that heaven is supposed to be this great place where there are no troubles and all your needs are fulfilled. The only answer the early church could come up with to the question; "If it's such a great place, why don't you kill yourself now instead of waiting?" was; "It's a sin to kill yourself."

[Grantywanty]

The problem with suicide in religion is that heaven is supposed to be this great place where there are no troubles and all your needs are fulfilled. The only answer the early church could come up with to the question; "If it's such a great place, why don't you kill yourself now instead of waiting?" was; "It's a sin to kill yourself."

That might be some people's motivation, but many religions view life as part of an evolutionary process, not in the Darwinian sense, but in that the person has to grow and change psychologically and spiritually. Christian theology since it has had periods where logic and proofs have played a major role - albeit based on axioms that many disagree with - ends up getting questions like the one you suggest above because all the rules and 'logic' make it seem more like a hockey match. It is not really bad to foul someone, but you have to weigh the consequences of time in the box.

To kill yourself does not really remove you from the predicament. If you come from a religion with reincarnation you are expected to come back to a similar juncture and find a better solution. Not because suicide is wrong or bad or selfish but because you really need to learn to not be in that emotional/thought predicament. You do not somehow fit in in heaven, nirvana, bliss etc. You simply aren't there. It would spit you out and you would reject it.

[KennyJC]

Well in these modern times prolonged agony is not unavoidable and can be treated with good palliative care. But in any case, if it is Gods will that one must go through pain then pain is what one must endure.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Well the law should be adapted to those who are still suffering despite 'good' palliative care. Or those unfortunate enough not to be able to get 'good' palliative care.

In fact, if you believe you should die how god planned, why should we even have hospitals in the first place?

I really can't believe the smugness and lack of sympathy exhibited by many people on this thread.

Suicide is cowardly AND selfish and a complete denial of oneself?


Lack of sympathy? There are endless accounts of when palliative care simply isn't enough and they are left to suffer for the rest of their grim few days, weeks or months. If people wish to see a natural death and can endure the suffering, then good for them. But to deny the right for someone to choose an end to the suffering if they have no hope of improvement, now that is a lack of sympathy.

Lets see if you're still so cocksure if you are unfortunate enough to be put in that situation...