any wiccans here

[pjdude1219]

are there any wiccans here because i'm thinking about converting to wicca and i would like some advice on how to find a coven from a wiccan

[Reiku]

Yes.

In my younger years, i've read over fifteen different books of shadows.

I guess that would have made me a warlock, other than wiccan.

[Reiku]

Integrating, i could tell you anything you wanted about it.

[pjdude1219]

Integrating, i could tell you anything you wanted about it.

well i'm looking into finding a coven but i don't really know what to look for as outspoken as i am i happen to be very shy like what would be a good place to go to see if i can bump into a wiccan

[Reiku]

Righty then...

there are many ad hoc sites on wiccanism. Varying from color magicks, black magicks and white magicks, elemental magicks and even stone magicks.

Finding a coven (are you a girl)? is difficult. You would need to find one located close to were you live to make things easy. :-)

[pjdude1219]

Righty then...

there are many ad hoc sites on wiccanism. Varying from color magicks, black magicks and white magicks, elemental magicks and even stone magicks.

Finding a coven (are you a girl)? is difficult. You would need to find one located close to were you live to make things easy. :-)

i'm a guy

[Reiku]

Cool.

Then best know about warlock arbitraries.

[Reiku]

Brittish? American?

[Reiku]

Oh... and you are probably wondering (maybe not) how a scientist like me could believe in such woo woo...

Well, simple. Observer creates reality. This is the fundamental rule of quantum physics. So if it states that ''to name a thing'' is to create a thing, then spells also have significant quantum mechanics.

[Grantywanty]

Oh... and you are probably wondering (maybe not) how a scientist like me could believe in such woo woo...

Well, simple. Observer creates reality. This is the fundamental rule of quantum physics. So if it states that ''to name a thing'' is to create a thing, then spells also have significant quantum mechanics.

What kind of scientist are you?
I am not a scientist, but have a lay interest - that sounds like a straight line - and my impression was that the observer affects reality. I had not read any QM texts that took it to the place you have. Did I miss something? I hope I did. If it seems better to keep this on topic by including wiccan concepts, feel free to.

[phlogistician]

well i'm looking into finding a coven

Easy, just dress like some hippy throw back and act like you're on drugs. The wiccans will find you.

[Grantywanty]

Easy, just dress like some hippy throw back and act like you're on drugs. The wiccans will find you.

In what sense are you moderate?

[Avatar]

Converting is bollox, you either know what you are, or you do not.
Seriously, does anyone choose to become a christian before being a christian?
Oh, good ol faith you have there, I think I'll become a christian.

Any way, what's wicca? I read the wiki article on it and didn't get it.
It says that wicca comes from old European witchcraft religion, but there was no such thing,
so it seems that it was invented in 1920s to accommodate for the newly emerging eco movement.

[GeoffP]

Just read Harry Potter. You'll get the idea.

[Grantywanty]

Converting is bollox, you either know what you are, or you do not.
Seriously, does anyone choose to become a christian before being a christian?
Oh, good ol faith you have there, I think I'll become a christian.

Any way, what's wicca? I read the wiki article on it and didn't get it.
It says that wicca comes from old European witchcraft religion, but there was no such thing,
so it seems that it was invented in 1920s to accommodate for the newly emerging eco movement.

There were certainly pagan religions that lived even up to the present in various segregated or secret forms.

And of course some people choose to become Christians or Jews or athiests. Unless you are coming from a hard determinist position most people consider some people choosing to participate in this or that system of belief.

[Avatar]

Pagan religion is a flawed term, esentially meaning non-christian-religion.
Putting all the nature cults under the same name is very broad, not to mention if that word is "witchcraft". There are witches or wizards in almost any culture.

Imo wicca is a new religion which has taken some themes from the old "pagan" cults, some from christianity (the case in Latvia with our coincidentally 1920s Dievturi religion ), some from eco movement, and some from hippies, and also a few fairy tales. Put it all together and voila! It's a recreation of an old idea, but it's not the same thing, not at all.

most people consider some people choosing to participate in this or that system of belief.
Really? I've never done that.
So it means that people are choosing the way they want to think, yes? I.e., I want to think there is only one god and his name is Allah, and I also want to wear a towel or whatever that thing is called?

[Grantywanty]

[QUOTE]Pagan religion is a flawed term, esentially meaning non-christian-religion. Yeah, that's what I meant. The non-Christian, one could even say indigenous religions in Europe before and then under duress during Christianity. However flawed the term is, you got what I meant.
Putting all the nature cults under the same name is very broad, not to mention if that word is "witchcraft". There are witches or wizards in almost any culture.

Imo wicca is a new religion which has taken some themes from the old "pagan" cults, some from christianity (the case in Latvia with our coincidentally 1920s Dievturi religion ), some from eco movement, and some from hippies, and also a few fairy tales. Put it all together and voila! It's a recreation of an old idea, but it's not the same thing, not at all.

So you're saying it doesn't have the right kind of pedigree for you to consider it a bona fide religion. I'd hesitate to take such a stand myself. Most religions strike me as pretty hodgepodge, especially when you add on lateral investigations of different branches and sects and denominations to the historical roots approach.


Really? I've never done that.
So it means that people are choosing the way they want to think, yes? I.e., I want to think there is only one god and his name is Allah, and I also want to wear a towel or whatever that thing is called?

I actually do think some people choose what they want to think. The whole affirmations crowd and Christianity has many autobiographies where people struggle with their doubts and even disbelief. And one can certainly decide to let down a skeptical guard, begin to explore something and decide to be more open to it and so on.

But choosing to be Christian, of course. Of course their are converts. That word certainly has more than imaginary uses.

[Cris]

avatar,

Converting is bollox, you either know what you are, or you do not.Well no. Adopting the label of any particular religion requires satisfying a long list of criteria. One might easily satisfy all that list and have no problem identifying with the label, many might have discomfort with some or most of the criteria and do not feel confortable with the label even though they had perhaps at one time felt they met the criteria.

Conversion simply means coming to a recognition that one label is not appropriate and that another set of criteria is more attractive. If that new set of criteria has an appropriate label then one might correspondingly feel happy thus labeled.

Seriously, does anyone choose to become a christian before being a christian?Of course they do, I did, after a lot of thought. And after even more thought eventually rejected it.

[Grantywanty]

Really? I've never done that.
So it means that people are choosing the way they want to think, yes?

Then there is the fairly common experience of people deciding to ignore evidence. ON some level they realize they just experienced something that contradicted their belief but they choose to cling to a certain belief anyway. Only later are they able to cop to this. I have known people who chose beliefs to rebell against their parents. Some admitted this but noticed later that the beliefs stuck for other reasons. Some admitted this and dropped their conversions. (and these conversions included to athiesm and to a couple of different monotheisms).

You can certainly choose to particpate in the rituals of a religion with the intent of joining. These rituals lead to experiences (sometimes very satisfying) and this in turn leads to a more and more distinct choices to be a part of that religion.

I am sure many people who went from the WEst and joined Eastern religions, in fact I know a few, started out hoping they would believe. They liked the sound of what they heard and chose to participate in systems that had beliefs they liked the sound of. Their experiences seemed to did confirm these intended beliefs. I think it is fair to say they chose their beliefs. This doesn't mean it is random. But religions are set up, especially the more experiential based ones, to give people experiences that solidify beliefs. Meditation, chanting, etc.

[Reiku]

What kind of scientist are you?
I am not a scientist, but have a lay interest - that sounds like a straight line - and my impression was that the observer affects reality. I had not read any QM texts that took it to the place you have. Did I miss something? I hope I did. If it seems better to keep this on topic by including wiccan concepts, feel free to.

Well, i've been called a ''sceintist,'' only because i work in this area: Psychophysics... the study of the mind from a quantum physical sense.

You're right. The observer affects reality, but it turns out that from a Copenhagen Viewpoint, she ALSO creates it! By observation or even mindless ponderings :-)

[Hapsburg]

are there any wiccans here because i'm thinking about converting to wicca and i would like some advice on how to find a coven from a wiccan
While not myself a Wiccan, I am greatly familiar with their philosophy and general views, and I find myself agreeing with many of them; and I am very knowledgeable on the Wiccan religion's history.
I know a few Wiccans, and they seem to be far kinder, and more balanced people than most Christians that I know.
I may be able to help. I can ask my Wiccan friends if they know of any websites that can help you find one near you.

Although, you don't necessarily need to be in a coven, nor do you need to be ordained by a Wiccan cleric to be considered a Wiccan. Most Wiccans in today's world, actually, are lone practitioners, and the Eclectic Wiccan movement, which is aiming to move away from the secretive traditionalism of Gardnerian and Alexandrian Wicca, is growing within the Wiccan religion.

Pagan religion is a flawed term, esentially meaning non-christian-religion.
Not really. It's quite an accurate term.
"Pagan" literally means "rustic" or "country", so Pagan religions can be taken to be a broad term for any religion which seeks to find a more fluid, nature-based system of ethics, aesthetics, and belief than the strict, organised and doctrinal religions in other parts (i.e, Abrahamism).

Paganism is divided into three main things:
Palaeopaganism, which are the oldest polytheistic and animistic religions of the world, their date of origin ranging from before 200,000 BCE to around 200 CE. Various African native religions, Hinduism, Shinto, and the various European bronze- and iron-age polytheisms can be grouped into here.

Mesopaganism are pagan religions who originate from around 200 CE to about 1920 CE. These often integrated monotheistic or henotheistic ideals into their polytheisms, and usually had a more structured or organised system of belief than palaeopagan systems. Some Hellenic Mysteries can be considered part of this; Norse polytheism, although heavily based from Germanic palaeopaganism, is considered mesopagan. A few neodruid and Celtic reconstructionist faiths, and some Germanic reconstructionist paths, can be grouped into there as well.

Neopaganism is any pagan or nature-based religions originating from 1920 onwards. These often attempt to reconcile palaeopagan ideas and beliefs with modern, and later New-Age, values and societal ideals and with modern scientific study and information. These include, among others, Wicca, most Germanic reconstructionist religions, such as Asatru, and most of the varuiys Celtic reconstructionist groups, as well as most neodruid groups. Also included is Kemetic Orthodoxy, which is Egyptian reconstructionist, as well as the modern Eclectic Movement, which seeks to make a more "general" or "multi-purpose" Paganism.

Imo wicca is a new religion which has taken some themes from the old "pagan" cults, some from christianity , some from eco movement, and some from hippies, and also a few fairy tales. Put it all together and voila! It's a recreation of an old idea, but it's not the same thing, not at all.
Not necessarily. Wicca takes many ideals and beliefs from Proto-Indo-European religion, and could, like most other Neopagan religions, be considered a religion which seeks to reconcile an ancient belief system with modern social values.

While palaeopagan and mesopagan ideas have a considerable influence, Wicca is firmly in the realm of neopaganism, being an integration of old ideas with modern ideals.

[pjdude1219]

Easy, just dress like some hippy throw back and act like you're on drugs. The wiccans will find you.

did i forget to mention i want to succede

[pjdude1219]

While not myself a Wiccan, I am greatly familiar with their philosophy and general views, and I find myself agreeing with many of them; and I am very knowledgeable on the Wiccan religion's history.
I know a few Wiccans, and they seem to be far kinder, and more balanced people than most Christians that I know.
I may be able to help. I can ask my Wiccan friends if they know of any websites that can help you find one near you.

Although, you don't necessarily need to be in a coven, nor do you need to be ordained by a Wiccan cleric to be considered a Wiccan. Most Wiccans in today's world, actually, are lone practitioners, and the Eclectic Wiccan movement, which is aiming to move away from the secretive traditionalism of Gardnerian and Alexandrian Wicca, is growing within the Wiccan religion.


Not really. It's quite an accurate term.
"Pagan" literally means "rustic" or "country", so Pagan religions can be taken to be a broad term for any religion which seeks to find a more fluid, nature-based system of ethics, aesthetics, and belief than the strict, organised and doctrinal religions in other parts (i.e, Abrahamism).

Paganism is divided into three main things:
Palaeopaganism, which are the oldest polytheistic and animistic religions of the world, their date of origin ranging from before 200,000 BCE to around 200 CE. Various African native religions, Hinduism, Shinto, and the various European bronze- and iron-age polytheisms can be grouped into here.

Mesopaganism are pagan religions who originate from around 200 CE to about 1920 CE. These often integrated monotheistic or henotheistic ideals into their polytheisms, and usually had a more structured or organised system of belief than palaeopagan systems. Some Hellenic Mysteries can be considered part of this; Norse polytheism, although heavily based from Germanic palaeopaganism, is considered mesopagan. A few neodruid and Celtic reconstructionist faiths, and some Germanic reconstructionist paths, can be grouped into there as well.

Neopaganism is any pagan or nature-based religions originating from 1920 onwards. These often attempt to reconcile palaeopagan ideas and beliefs with modern, and later New-Age, values and societal ideals and with modern scientific study and information. These include, among others, Wicca, most Germanic reconstructionist religions, such as Asatru, and most of the varuiys Celtic reconstructionist groups, as well as most neodruid groups. Also included is Kemetic Orthodoxy, which is Egyptian reconstructionist, as well as the modern Eclectic Movement, which seeks to make a more "general" or "multi-purpose" Paganism.


Not necessarily. Wicca takes many ideals and beliefs from Proto-Indo-European religion, and could, like most other Neopagan religions, be considered a religion which seeks to reconcile an ancient belief system with modern social values.

While palaeopagan and mesopagan ideas have a considerable influence, Wicca is firmly in the realm of neopaganism, being an integration of old ideas with modern ideals.

thank you for that i've tried finding some websites on my own to help find a coven but i haven't had any luck

[phlogistician]

In what sense are you moderate?

In what way am I a moderate? When I see hippies, I don't beat them up.

[phlogistician]

Converting is bollox, you either know what you are, or you do not.


I agree, this implies a romantic attraction to the idea, rather than a rational choice based on knowledge of the practices.

[Grantywanty]

In what way am I a moderate? When I see hippies, I don't beat them up.

So most people are moderate including hippies?

[Grantywanty]

I agree, this implies a romantic attraction to the idea, rather than a rational choice based on knowledge of the practices.

So if you decide to follow a romantic attraction you are not choosing?
We can only make rational decisions and choices?
No one has chosen to join a religion based on knowledge of the practices?
No one has for example, seen Buddhists sitting in meditation, asked what they were doing, heard the answer, been skeptical and decided to try it anyway because it sound attractive adn they were curious, and found that they were more relaxed afterwords and so on and one day they ACCURATELY called themselves a buddhist? (before they were a Jew. Can we not call this both a choice and a conversion?)

[Carcano]

Anyone interested in Wicca and Paganism should go and rent a great film 'The Wicker Man'...the original made in the 70s.

One of the first films to explore the emerging pagan mythos, as well as genetic engineering.

http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/7926/thewickermanchistopherlxa2.jpg

[SkinWalker]

What is the evidence that the fictional film, "The Wicker Man," is representative enough of an entire religious cult to reveal insight into their superstitions and beliefs?

[Carcano]

What is the evidence that the fictional film, "The Wicker Man," is representative enough of an entire religious cult to reveal insight into their superstitions and beliefs?
The evidence is to be found in the philosophy, which forms an equal measure of the film along with its riveting drama.

To say that its 'representative' however wouldnt quite fit, because when the film was made in the early seventies there was no Wicca or Paganism in any significant way.

Nowadays when you walk into a big bookstore like Chapters the Wicca/Paganism section is actually bigger than the Christianity section, but this has only happened in the past decade.

The central difference between Paganism and most world religions is that of location, location, location.

Where is divinity?

For the Christian, divinity is not here. A small spark may dwell within us in the world, but it is not 'of' the world. It belongs with God in heaven. And so the purpose of life is to return home by abstaining from attaching oneself to the pleasures of worldly embodiment. To sit on one's hands and wait for the magic bus to paradise.

To the Pagan, divinity is to be realized here and now, within a world of eternal recurrence. It is to be found in rocks and streams, mountains and rivers. It celebrates divinity in life and matter, and suffers none of the gloomy self mortification of pale mournful ascetics.

"Verily, rather would I see even the shameless than the contorted eyes of their shame and devotion. Who created for themselves such caves and stairways of repentance? Was it not such as wanted to hide themselves and were ashamed before the pure sky?

And only when the pure sky again looks through broken ceilings, and down upon grass and red poppies near broken walls, will I again turn my heart to the abode of this God.

They have called God what was contrary to them and gave them pain, and verily, there was much of the heroic in their adoration. And they did not know how to love their God except by crucifying man." -Nietzsche.

[pjdude1219]

i'm suprised the ccr on this site like sandy aren't hopping on this thread to attack me for want to convert to a non christian religion

[Avatar]

there was no Wicca or Paganism in any significant way.
What do you mean by paganism here? Because if you think nature religions, then they were all over the place, just go East of Moscow or South of Mexico.
The central difference between Paganism and most world religions is that of location, location, location.
Actually that's just about three, and three plus a few doesn't make it most.

[Carcano]

Actually that's just about three, and three plus a few doesn't make it most.
Perhaps, but the others are insignificant in number of adherents, relative to the grand total.

[phlogistician]

So if you decide to follow a romantic attraction you are not choosing?

No, you are making an irrational choice.

We can only make rational decisions and choices?

No, I didn't say, nor imply that.

No one has chosen to join a religion based on knowledge of the practices?

No, I didn't say, nor imply that. I implied, in this instance, that the attraction seemed to be romantic, rather than rational, actually implying it is better to make a rational choice. Comprehension not your forté, eh?

No one has for example, seen Buddhists sitting in meditation, asked what they were doing, heard the answer, been skeptical and decided to try it anyway because it sound attractive adn they were curious, and found that they were more relaxed afterwords and so on and one day they ACCURATELY called themselves a buddhist? (before they were a Jew. Can we not call this both a choice and a conversion?)

Meditating for a day does not make you a buddhist. Other religions meditate. So no, your scenario would not mean someone could ACCURATELY deem themselves to be buddhist!


But herein you highlight the difference, even though your analogy is flawed and inaccurate. Your observer sees the religion in practice, and makes enquiries. Our OP is too shy to approach a hippie and ask them about their new age BS religion. The reasons for being interested in the first place are not stated.

Thankyou, it's been fun playing with you. If you wish to take another blade, open your eyes next time.

[GeoffP]

What is the evidence that the fictional film, "The Wicker Man," is representative enough of an entire religious cult to reveal insight into their superstitions and beliefs?

Well they did build a seventy-foot wicker man, you know. Honestly. Just look up.

[Grantywanty]

No, you are making an irrational choice. A choice. Which would mean one is choosing.



No, I didn't say, nor imply that. Avatar was saying you cannot convert, you are either one thing or another. You agreed. In that context it seems pretty clear you are saying you cannot make this choice. Now you are saying it is an irrational choice. So be it. This does not fit with Avatar's assertion which you claimed to be agreeing with.



No, I didn't say, nor imply that. I implied, in this instance, that the attraction seemed to be romantic, rather than rational, actually implying it is better to make a rational choice. Comprehension not your forté, eh? I can only assume you did not read Avatar's post, the one you were agreeing with, where he makes it clear you cannot convert. You cannot make this choice. You are saying you can make this choice but it is irrational. You do not agree with him. Keep your snideness to yourself. At the very least you can see how in the context of your support for his position, you points are not clear.



Meditating for a day does not make you a buddhist. Other religions meditate. So no, your scenario would not mean someone could ACCURATELY deem themselves to be buddhist! I said ' and so on and one day'. I did not say 'on that day' or within 24 four hours.


But herein you highlight the difference, even though your analogy is flawed and inaccurate. Your observer sees the religion in practice, and makes enquiries. Our OP is too shy to approach a hippie and ask them about their new age BS religion. The reasons for being interested in the first place are not stated.

Thankyou, it's been fun playing with you. If you wish to take another blade, open your eyes next time.

Oh, Jesus, another Jedi or samurai wanna be. I can only hope you are physically still in puberty for your sake. I will not read your response. Have your errors and misplaced smugness.

[phlogistician]

A choice. Which would mean one is choosing.

There are different types of choices. Whether it is a choice or not was not the debate, you are drawing it off topic. If this kid doesn't know anything about Wicca, the decision to attempt to become one is an irrational choice. One has to question his motives.

Avatar was saying you cannot convert, you are either one thing or another. You agreed. In that context it seems pretty clear you are saying you cannot make this choice.

Like I said, comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong point. You miss the point entirely, and that the OP hasn't explained their attraction to, or knowledge of Wicca. It sounds like they know squat at this point.

I can only assume you did not read Avatar's post, the one you were agreeing with, where he makes it clear you cannot convert.

Convert is an interesting word. It implies a membership of an existing religion, then schooling in another, and then conversion to that new religion. Usually due to marriage, and it usually involves some ceremony.

I think Avatar was saying that with Wicca, with it's loose structure, that once you know enough about the religion, you can call yourself a Wiccan. You don't need to convert.

You cannot make this choice. You are saying you can make this choice but it is irrational.

Which angle are you battering now? The kid has made an irrational choice to get involved with Wicca. It's that simple. There is a simple answer to his needs too, BUY A BOOK ABOUT WICCA.

I said ' and so on and one day'. I did not say 'on that day' or within 24 four hours.

So being vague makes you correct does it? All you mentioned was meditation. There's more to buddhism than that. If you were implying investigation and schooling, well that would be a different matter. The loci of your vague and fractured analogy would then be making a rational choice based on their experiences, unlike our OP.


Oh, Jesus, another Jedi or samurai wanna be.

It was a fencing term, actually.

I can only hope you are physically still in puberty for your sake. I will not read your response. Have your errors and misplaced smugness.

With your lack of comprehension and predeliction for stuffing straw men, this retreat doesn't surprise me.

[Grantywanty]

[QUOTE]There are different types of choices. Whether it is a choice or not was not the debate, you are drawing it off topic. If this kid doesn't know anything about Wicca, the decision to attempt to become one is an irrational choice. One has to question his motives.

Avatar did not say: 'your conversion sounds problematic.' He spoke about conversion IN GENERAL. You agreed. Fine, you meant only in relation to this case. But you want to keep insulting me (below), when in context my point was quite reasonable. Avatar was make a categorical denial of the possibility of choosing a religion. I would not have reacted to your post if he had been specific about his doubts here.



Like I said, comprehension doesn't seem to be your strong point. You miss the point entirely, and that the OP hasn't explained their attraction to, or knowledge of Wicca. It sounds like they know squat at this point.

See above. Also, your point seems to be that I am off topic because I am talking about choice and conversion IN GENERAL. If you read Avatar's post you will see he did precisely this. You seemed to be in agreement with his post. I did not open the door to a general discussion of conversion and if it is a choice. I joined it. It seemed like you joined it earlier also by agreeing with his post.



Convert is an interesting word. It implies a membership of an existing religion, then schooling in another, and then conversion to that new religion. Usually due to marriage, and it usually involves some ceremony.

But of course includes conversions not related to marriage. And history is replete with a variety of reasons for conversions including personal choice - without the threat of torture for example.

I think Avatar was saying that with Wicca, with it's loose structure, that once you know enough about the religion, you can call yourself a Wiccan. You don't need to convert.

REally. Do you really believe that? Read his second paragraph and just by yourself ask yourself if you believe that.

If he meant this he communicated poorly since his post DENIES THE POSSIBILITY of conversion. You keep implying I can't comprehend what I read. I keep going back to his post and the portion YOU QUOTED and it seems to me I read his post and that quote quite well while you are interpreting it rather strangely.

And the way you word it here makes it sound like he was somehow neutral about Wicca or saying 'Oh, you can just join' when in fact he says

Any way, what's wicca? I read the wiki article on it and didn't get it.
It says that wicca comes from old European witchcraft religion, but there was no such thing,
so it seems that it was invented in 1920s to accommodate for the newly emerging eco movement.

which strongly suggests he thinks it is a bunch of bullshit and is not about to say something like 'hey, it's no big deal you can just join.'



Which angle are you battering now? The kid has made an irrational choice to get involved with Wicca.

same issue. I thought you read and understood Avatar's post. I was speaking about conversion and choice in general as Avatar was and thought you understood this when you agreed with him.



So being vague makes you correct does it? All you mentioned was meditation. There's more to buddhism than that. If you were implying investigation and schooling, well that would be a different matter. The loci of your vague and fractured analogy would then be making a rational choice based on their experiences, unlike our OP.

You misread it. It was clear it was not about 24 hours. 'and so on' in English can include any number of steps. 'and one day' tends to imply a long time, in English. I was not equating this with the OP. Avatar, who you agreed with, was saying you could not convert. I was showing how in fact one can take steps from curiosity to conversion. 'and so on' in English can include any number of steps. 'and one day' tends to imply a long time, in English. Since it turns out that you in fact do not agree with Avatar, I can see how this post was confusing for you. Since you said you did agree I began an argument to show conversion was possible and that his 'either you are or you aren't' did not match reality.




It was a fencing term, actually. Same adolescent vibe in context.



With your lack of comprehension and predeliction for stuffing straw men, this retreat doesn't surprise me.

If your reading of Avatar's post was that he was only talking about the OP's experiences and not generalizing that choice in such a case is not possible and are continuing to maintain this position despite your misreading being pointed out, I really don't care what surprises you.

Can't you have the integrity to admit that you agreed with Avatar's post when in fact you don't. Keep on insulting me if you need to, but in the privacy of your own head you might as well be honest. There is no crowd. No buzzer when your hallucinated point hits me. No awards.

Pardon my lack of optimism about your character when I don't come back to read whatever interpretational gymnastics you go through to avoid seeing your part in our earlier miscommunication.

[phlogistician]

I will not read your response.

Ah, but you are snared by your own ego, and felt compelled to do so.

Everything posted on this thread is about the OP, unless stated otherwise. So your excuse discussing things in general does not hold. It's simple, replies not quoting subsequent replies to the OP, are to the OP, not general comments.

Your excuses and defence of your flawed buddhist analogy do you no good. Abandon it.

It doesn't matter if Avatar thinks that new age bullshit is bullshit. The point was, and that I agree, is that if this kid knew enough about Wicca, he could call himself a Wiccan. You can call yourself a Christian without following a major schizm, and there is less structure and hierarchy to the Wiccan faith, no induction ceremony required, no 'conversion' required, and like I said, 'conversion' implies ditching one religion for another, you seem to be avoiding this thorny issue, that the OP has not stated what, if any religion they already are! Their own use of the word 'conversion' displays rather a lack of the undertanding of the relevant terminology. This is a forum, words are important.

btw, you are putting words into Avatars mouth. He said 'conversion is bollocks', you are arguing from a point of view he hasn't personally expressed! You are still stuffing that straw man trying to make your point, and that is intellectualy dishonesty.

Anyway, please make good on this promise;

when I don't come back to read whatever interpretational gymnastics ...

because you really are embarrassing yourself.


If you are going to carry on flailing though, don't nit pick line by line, answer some questions.

What religion is the OP 'converting' from? Is the OP converting, or adopting?

Is there a Wiccan equivalent of baptism, that is required before one can call themselves a Wiccan; ie, does the OP actually need to meet a Wiccan?

Toodle pip!

[pjdude1219]

Ah, but you are snared by your own ego, and felt compelled to do so.

Everything posted on this thread is about the OP, unless stated otherwise. So your excuse discussing things in general does not hold. It's simple, replies not quoting subsequent replies to the OP, are to the OP, not general comments.

Your excuses and defence of your flawed buddhist analogy do you no good. Abandon it.

It doesn't matter if Avatar thinks that new age bullshit is bullshit. The point was, and that I agree, is that if this kid knew enough about Wicca, he could call himself a Wiccan. You can call yourself a Christian without following a major schizm, and there is less structure and hierarchy to the Wiccan faith, no induction ceremony required, no 'conversion' required, and like I said, 'conversion' implies ditching one religion for another, you seem to be avoiding this thorny issue, that the OP has not stated what, if any religion they already are! Their own use of the word 'conversion' displays rather a lack of the undertanding of the relevant terminology. This is a forum, words are important.

btw, you are putting words into Avatars mouth. He said 'conversion is bollocks', you are arguing from a point of view he hasn't personally expressed! You are still stuffing that straw man trying to make your point, and that is intellectualy dishonesty.

Anyway, please make good on this promise;



because you really are embarrassing yourself.


If you are going to carry on flailing though, don't nit pick line by line, answer some questions.

What religion is the OP 'converting' from? Is the OP converting, or adopting?

Is there a Wiccan equivalent of baptism, that is required before one can call themselves a Wiccan; ie, does the OP actually need to meet a Wiccan?

Toodle pip!

no i could be a solitary practishner but i would feel more comfertable worshipping in a group and i would be converting from roman cathilicism

[Carcano]

i would feel more comfertable worshipping in a group and i would be converting from roman cathilicism
I dont if theres much worship going on in Wicca.

Rituals of reverence maybe...but not worship.

[pjdude1219]

I dont if theres much worship going on in Wicca.

Rituals of reverence maybe...but not worship.

why do you think that

[Carcano]

why do you think that
Because theres no deity tossing you into hell if you abstain from worship.

No deity to flatter in exchange for great blessings...trick or treat! :D

[pjdude1219]

Because theres no deity tossing you into hell if you abstain from worship.

No deity to flatter in exchange for great blessings...trick or treat! :D

wiccans from my research belive in two dieties a god and goddess

[Carcano]

wiccans from my research belive in two dieties a god and goddess
Yes, I've read that too...but they dont appear to do much in terms of making judgements and handing out fringe benefits.

[pjdude1219]

Yes, I've read that too...but they dont appear to do much in terms of making judgements and handing out fringe benefits.

and you say that if its a bad thing

[Carcano]

and you say that if its a bad thing
No, I'm making rather objective statements really.

However, personally I think its foolish to chase after any religion. Spirituality is a different matter altogether.

[pjdude1219]

the nonjudgement of the dieties is one of the reasons i like wicca

[phlogistician]

the nonjudgement of the dieties is one of the reasons i like wicca


OK, some information to work with finally. I guess there is more to come, like some dissatisfaction with your existing religion, but you need to fulfill some spiritual element still?

I guess the hellfire and brimstone, God is watching you, everything is a sin confessed to a stranger (even though God knows) stuff is getting tired. Good show, it is all BS.

So Wicca. Well yes it's laid back, because it's a revivalist movement. But coming from a very rigid background, will it satisfy all your requirements? Do you want ritual to re-inforce a community spirit amongst fellow wiccans? How often? They aren't that active to be honest.

You might find a martial art, and buddhism more satisfying. How about Kung Fu? Good exericise, a spiritual element in Chi, and a tie in with Buddhist philosophy. Mind, body and spirit, better than wafers and weak wine, eh?

You'll get to attend every week, twice possibly, and be involved with an ancient and respected tradition still.

Give it some thought, make a list of things you want to keep, and things you want to discard, and then look around.

[cosmictraveler]

Could always look into deism:

The religious philosophy and movement that became prominent in England, France, and the United States in the 17th and 18th centuries that rejects

supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and divine revelation prominent in organized religion, along with holy books and revealed religions that assert the

existence of such things.

WIKI

[pjdude1219]

OK, some information to work with finally. I guess there is more to come, like some dissatisfaction with your existing religion, but you need to fulfill some spiritual element still?

I guess the hellfire and brimstone, God is watching you, everything is a sin confessed to a stranger (even though God knows) stuff is getting tired. Good show, it is all BS.

So Wicca. Well yes it's laid back, because it's a revivalist movement. But coming from a very rigid background, will it satisfy all your requirements? Do you want ritual to re-inforce a community spirit amongst fellow wiccans? How often? They aren't that active to be honest.

You might find a martial art, and buddhism more satisfying. How about Kung Fu? Good exericise, a spiritual element in Chi, and a tie in with Buddhist philosophy. Mind, body and spirit, better than wafers and weak wine, eh?

You'll get to attend every week, twice possibly, and be involved with an ancient and respected tradition still.

Give it some thought, make a list of things you want to keep, and things you want to discard, and then look around.

one of the reason i want to convert is i don't like going to church that much so the inferquency of gatherings in wicca also appeals to me

[phlogistician]

one of the reason i want to convert is i don't like going to church that much so the inferquency of gatherings in wicca also appeals to me

If you don't like going to church, stop going.

Why do you need to replace Catholicism with something, in order to stop doing something you don't like? That doesn't make any sense.

[Hapsburg]

If you don't like going to church, stop going.
A conversion isn't absolutely necessary, but then again, a conversion isn't the changing of one's views.

It is a useful symbolic demonstration which publicly slows a shedding of the views of your old ideology, and the assumption of those of your new one. It is not, however, the changing of the views itself.

Why do you need to replace Catholicism with something, in order to stop doing something you don't like? That doesn't make any sense.
Just because he doesn't agree with Catholicism doesn't mean he disagrees with every other religion or philosophy as well.
Some people like having an ordered set of philosophical views; it makes it easier to structure one's beliefs. Apparently, his views agree with most of the Wiccan religion's views.

why do you think that
Neopaganism, especially Wicca, doesn't have a set idea on deity, and as such, allows its practitioners to decide on their own, what their relationship to the divine is. Some choose worship, some choose simple reverence, some others even choose a relationship of equality. It depends on the individual, and there is no set doctrine.

wiccans from my research belive in two dieties a god and goddess
For one thing, belief does not equal worship.

Secondly, Wiccan's don't necessarily believe in the God and Goddess.
It depends, not only on the tradition, but from individual to individual. Traditional Gardnerian and Alexandrian Wicca do hold to the duotheistic idea, but they often associate polytheistic gods and goddesses as avatars or manifestations of the Horned God and Mother Goddess.
However, an increasing amount of Wiccans today, most of which are in the US, are breaking away from British Traditional Wicca, and are exploring more eclectic approaches, often adopting polytheistic pantheons into their belief system. Some others are monotheistic, some believe in only the female aspect of Deity, and some are atheists who view the goddess and god as archetypes.

Wicca, and neopaganism in general, doesn't have a concise, precise, or exact doctrine of faith when it comes to theology. It allows one to decide their own ideas, and still remain a Wiccan.

[Why?]

So, you want to do something stupid? Magic is non-sense. Don't waste your time on b.s.

[cosmictraveler]

So, you want to do something stupid? Magic is non-sense. Don't waste your time on b.s.

You know all about BS don't you WHY?

[pjdude1219]

So, you want to do something stupid? Magic is non-sense. Don't waste your time on b.s.

spoken from one who will never understand

[phlogistician]

A conversion isn't absolutely necessary, but then again, a conversion isn't the changing of one's views.

It might help if you follow the thread before replying? Anyway, of course a conversion is changing one's views! According to his current religion, his new religion is forbidden, idolatrous, evil, and there are specific commands about no tolerating witches ffs! You cannot be a Catholic and accomodate Wiccan beliefs, so a change of view is very definitely required!

It is a useful symbolic demonstration which publicly slows a shedding of the views of your old ideology,

Hold on, in your previous paragraph you said conversion wasn't changing your views, but in this one you say it's abotu shedding views and

and the assumption of those of your new one.

and then compound this lunacy with;

It is not, however, the changing of the views itself.

So 'shedding' one set of views, and 'assuming' another set is not 'changing' your views? When you change your trousers how do you do that? Shed one pair and put on another? What is the difference?


Just because he doesn't agree with Catholicism doesn't mean he disagrees with every other religion or philosophy as well.

He is a Catholic. He has stated so himself, so one would think if he he says he is a Catholic, and goes to church, he must agree with a fair portion of the credo. I didn't imply he didn't agree with other religions either, again it might help if you actually read the thread before quoting people and chiming in.

I said if he doesn't like the frequency of church visits, instead of swapping to a more ad-hoc organisation, why doesn't he just stop going to Church? It's like this guy is looking for an excuse not to go to Church, like he needs to justify it to his parents, rather than himself, and becoming a Wiccan would be an excuse.

[phlogistician]

spoken from one who will never understand


Rational people do not undertand the attraction of the irrational.

[pjdude1219]

It might help if you follow the thread before replying? Anyway, of course a conversion is changing one's views! According to his current religion, his new religion is forbidden, idolatrous, evil, and there are specific commands about no tolerating witches ffs! You cannot be a Catholic and accomodate Wiccan beliefs, so a change of view is very definitely required!



Hold on, in your previous paragraph you said conversion wasn't changing your views, but in this one you say it's abotu shedding views and



and then compound this lunacy with;



So 'shedding' one set of views, and 'assuming' another set is not 'changing' your views? When you change your trousers how do you do that? Shed one pair and put on another? What is the difference?




He is a Catholic. He has stated so himself, so one would think if he he says he is a Catholic, and goes to church, he must agree with a fair portion of the credo. I didn't imply he didn't agree with other religions either, again it might help if you actually read the thread before quoting people and chiming in.

I said if he doesn't like the frequency of church visits, instead of swapping to a more ad-hoc organisation, why doesn't he just stop going to Church? It's like this guy is looking for an excuse not to go to Church, like he needs to justify it to his parents, rather than himself, and becoming a Wiccan would be an excuse.

accually i was raised catholic i never really thought of my self as a catholic and i stopped going to church often long ago

[phlogistician]

accually i was raised catholic i never really thought of my self as a catholic and i stopped going to church often long ago

Then it would be helpful if you made more accurate statements about yourself. You referred to yourself as Catholic, and stated that the frequency of attendance at church was a problem for you with Catholicism, That implied you were still practising.

[Hapsburg]

Hold on, in your previous paragraph you said conversion wasn't changing your views, but in this one you say it's abotu shedding views and
No, I said that a ceremony of conversion is the symbolic act of shedding one's views. Normally, changing one's views takes place beforehand, and an act of conversion is mere symbolism.

The true shedding of one's views is simply changing one's mind.

However, that is no reason to say that he cannot convert to Wicca.

[phlogistician]

However, that is no reason to say that he cannot convert to Wicca.

No-one said he could not convert, just that conversion was bollocks.

[Crimson Peaceful Wol]

Wicca is a difficult religion to define, as there are many different aspects of Wicca, Witchcraft and Neo-paganism. When we refer to "the Old religion", we aren't speaking of a particular religion with a specific name... instead what we are referring to is the ambiance of certain religious practices that predate modern religions... most notably on one hand we speak about primal, or tribal gatherings, encompassing worshipping aspects of Diety in connection with the Earth, and on the other hand we speak about worshipping the Divine by various aspects represented symbolically by their specific attributes. The "Old Religion" refers to these sorts of practices, such as oral traditions, folklore, mythology, circular communities. Some people mistakenly assume this term "The Old Religion" means that Wicca predates Christianity. But what we are really refferring to is that the ideas that are interwoven into the Wiccan religion predate modern Judeo-Christain customs.

[ltcmmdr]

Yep. It's real easy to becoming wiccan but real hard to find a coven. There is a website you can post to find a coven at http://www.witchvox.com and http://circlesanctuary.org.

[Tht1Gy!]

are there any wiccans here because i'm thinking about converting to wicca and i would like some advice on how to find a coven from a wiccan

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=70409

[Tht1Gy!]

Yes.

In my younger years, i've read over fifteen different books of shadows.

I guess that would have made me a warlock, other than wiccan.

Hmm, as warlock means 'oath-breaker'* and is generally regarded as a 'poser term'; and
Wiccans don't refer to 'white magic' and/or 'black magic', and a 'book of shadows' is generally a private* (read "not to be shown to others") book of rituals composed by the owner... Hmmm.

Please list some authors; The Farrars? Buckland? StarHawk? Amber K? Silver Ravenwolf? (Don't remember if she uses an 'e' -wolfe.)
There are many more.


*To be fair; there are a few folks who have written a 'Book of Shadows' primer for beginners, (hence the book's 'primer' status:D)
Still, they tend to be books of rituals, and limited on theory.

*Old Scottish word. So I've read in a couple of places, tho admittedly not book on linguistics.

[K.FLINT]

As a separate choice you may wish to look into Druidism.

As a path in life or a belief system it has worked for me. it's a spiritual way of thinking rather then a practiced religion. Though it does not embrace any specific code or doctrine it is similar to Wiccan/Pagan beliefs on one side and Buddhism on the other. Here is a link that can give you the basic idea: http://www.druidry.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&topic_id=1&page_id=30

Though this path is solitary {as is life} and it *seems that you are looking to others to share in your belief structure.

I would be leery to jump into any religion that would surround you with people you do not know who share a belief you are not sure about. Doing such a thing could not only lead you down the wrong path, it could lead you to the end of yours. Be careful.

My suggestion is look into what YOU believe/feel is the right spiritual mind set for YOU. Then look on the net for more information to lead your path. Good luck!

As for having to be Pagan or Christian NOT both, I laugh :p
Pagan beliefs are so interconnected with Christian doctrine it is not even funny. I was born and raised Roman Catholic. I still attend mass,
{sometimes :shrug:} BUT I follow my own path while still believing in the BASIC principles and beliefs as the Christian main stream.



One of my favorite portions of the Bible is Matthew 6:1, 6:5, and 6:6.

6:1 “Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven."

6:5 “When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full."

6:6 “But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you."


:D

[answers]

Just be careful of what you are getting yourself into. All these things are Entries. Look into a bit of demonolgy before opening yourself up to it.

Just a quick question for anyone in the know. My ex girlfriend used to be into white-witchcraft a while before she met me. What is that?

[Tht1Gy!]

One of my favorite portions of the Bible is Matthew 6:1, 6:5, and 6:6.

6:1 “Beware of practicing your righteousness before men to be noticed by them; otherwise you have no reward with your Father who is in heaven."

6:5 “When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full."

6:6 “But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you."

:D

I'd have to agree that the sermon on the mount is full of good stuff.

I also find these very passages very cool.
Fundy thumpers really don't like to be reminded of them.

One thing; when the OP says s/he's thinking of "converting" I give a, oh some where between a head shake and a full shiver.
While I think I understand what you mean, pjdude1219, "conversion" is not the best word to use. Not really. The vast majority of us/those who claim Wicca as our 'faith' will quickly say "Umm, I'm not looking to 'convert' you or anyone for that matter". In fact I've never met anyone who'd fit that description.
Tho I once heard of a Wiccan who actively pursued converts. But that was a third hand account, making it now 'fourth hand'.

[Tht1Gy!]

Just be careful of what you are getting yourself into. All these things are Entries. Look into a bit of demonolgy before opening yourself up to it.

Just a quick question for anyone in the know. My ex girlfriend used to be into white-witchcraft a while before she met me. What is that?

Something curious Christians and posers have dreamed up.

I strongly advise anyone interested in Wicca, or its variants to get ahold of True Magic by Amber K. I forget if she uses a 'k' on magick.

Silver Ravenwolf has a couple of good books on the subject as do... I'll get back to ya on this, as, while I have some of these books it's late and I'll look in my library for titles and authors tomorrow. Or rather later today.

[answers]

so what is white-witchcraft? It just sounds like a watered down version of normal witchcraft to me. Is that right? No one line smart arse answers please.

[Tht1Gy!]

so what is white-witchcraft? It just sounds like a watered down version of normal witchcraft to me. Is that right? No one line smart arse answers please.

See my previous post. Gotta go for now I will respond more later.

BTW: I was not being a smart ass with the "Christian/poser" response

[Carcano]

As a separate choice you may wish to look into Druidism.

As a path in life or a belief system it has worked for me.

http://www.druidry.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&topic_id=1&page_id=30

Ive been reading this link Flint.
In the intro it says:

"One of the most striking characteristics of Druidism is the degree to which it is free of dogma and any fixed set of beliefs or practices. In this way it manages to offer a spiritual path..."

How does it manage to offer a spiritual path if it has no fixed set of beliefs or practises???

[Tht1Gy!]

Ive been reading this link Flint.
In the intro it says:

"One of the most striking characteristics of Druidism is the degree to which it is free of dogma and any fixed set of beliefs or practices. In this way it manages to offer a spiritual path..."

How does it manage to offer a spiritual path if it has no fixed set of beliefs or practises???

Follow your personal Tao.

[K.FLINT]

How does it manage to offer a spiritual path if it has no fixed set of beliefs or practises???

Respect towards all of life, nature as the cradle of life. You would see the same type of spiritual engagement in Buddhism and the American Indians. The wheel of life, Karma, respect of nature, oneness with the self, and a personal spiritual path are concepts held by both American Indians and Buddhists, so to with those who follow the path set by the druidical faith.

Take the basic fundamentals you find in the ten commandments they are just moral concepts and from them several religions with different sets of fixed beliefs have been created. With those beliefs the basic concepts have been blurred and for a different reason for each religion.

The biggest concept of Druidical thought is that of neutrality, the ability to look at everything around you in a third perspective. The idea being that only by being neutral can one see the truth hidden behind self illusion and preconceptions. How different would world history be if it was rewritten by a third perspective neutral view instead of that of the conquerors?

[Hapsburg]

How does it manage to offer a spiritual path if it has no fixed set of beliefs or practises???
While neodruidry has no set doctrine, and definitely not dogma, most neopagan druidic organisation have a common ideal, which, while not official or set, is generally accepted.

I forget if she uses a 'k' on magick.
I personally find the use of the "k" at the end of the word an idiotic, presumptuous thing to do. English is full of words with multiple meanings, but the same spelling. I see no reason to add the terminal "k".

Silver Ravenwolf has a couple of good books on the subject as do.
I absolutely cannot stand that woman. She is, in my opinion, a liar and a fraud; A lot of what she talks about is blatant falsehood, taken from Margaret Murray's works, which were repeatedly disproved decades ago, and she is, quite frankly, a religious bigot.
And bigotry has no place in Wicca.

so what is white-witchcraft?
Total bollox, resulting from applying Western dualism onto an inherently pluralistic philosophical view.

[Tht1Gy!]

I personally find the use of the "k" at the end of the word an idiotic, presumptuous thing to do. English is full of words with multiple meanings, but the same spelling. I see no reason to add the terminal "k".
ABSOLUTELY. Crowley was just fucking with people, (as he so enjoyed) when he came up with that. Quite the jokester.

Total bollox, resulting from applying Western dualism onto an inherently pluralistic philosophical view.

And resulting from people unable to unite themselves into a whole, unable to be yin AND yang at the same time.

It is only when we deny and repress our shadows that they convolute, and emerge with malevolence.

[Tht1Gy!]

Ive been reading this link Flint.
In the intro it says:

"One of the most striking characteristics of Druidism is the degree to which it is free of dogma and any fixed set of beliefs or practices. In this way it manages to offer a spiritual path..."

How does it manage to offer a spiritual path if it has no fixed set of beliefs or practises???

Still unable to add any of your own thoughts, hmmm?