View Full Version : Are you there God? ...it's uh, Sciforums.
spidergoat
10-22-07, 09:54 PM
VitalOne has agreed to an experiment testing the God hypothesis. The creation of this project is documented here. (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=1589557#post1589557) The origin:
Why don't you pray (sincerely) for my understanding of God's existence? We will see if that works. I promise to be honest and tell you if God turns me religious.
You really want me to try to do that? You realize that manifesting someone becoming religious is almost like mind control right?
It seems like a good test. I volunteer.
Try it on me too.
Really? This should be fun, anyway what would happen is you will feel more and more compelled to believe its all true all of a sudden, of course you will struggle with your mind trying to cancel it out, but the feeling of believing its all true will become very very strong
First I have to change my intention so that it becomes very very desirable, once that happens simple intense concentration upon the desire will cause great results
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So, if either I or Enmos, known atheists, suddenly admit belief in God, sometime after VitalOne declares the prayer to be finished, it will be proof that prayer works. It will also be a miracle. I agree to be receptive of suggestion (not actively working against the prayer), and honest about my beliefs. VitalOne has a good chance. I own a bible, and some Elaine Pagels books about Gnostics. Also one volume of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh's essays on Jesus, and the Book of Morman.
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Discussion questions:
Couldn't VitalOne pray for all atheists? ...or is that too ambitious?
How long will it take?
Should I rename this thread, "The God Delusion...contagious?"
If it works, is it really proof of God or just very improbable?
If it works twice, is that doubly improbable?
How do we know VitalOne will pray? what proof is there?
How could you all forget the fundamental rule of Christiandom making this test totally obsolete? Thou shalt not test thy God?
How could you all forget the fundamental rule of Christiandom making this test totally obsolete? Thou shalt not test thy God?
I am a buddhist.
Are you now? How long have you been a buddhist?
Are you now? How long have you been a buddhist?
4 years now, but I am still not following the true buddhist ways. I will be fully converted...self-converted by the end of this year.
Mmmm
Well... why? Enlightment|?
Mmmm
Well... why? Enlightment|?
no I am not pure yet in mind.
Pure?
I have body needs...I have sexual desires, desires of food, desires for chaotical behavior...I must minimize these completely.
You are human draqon. No amount of trained mind can overcome genetics.
spidergoat
10-22-07, 11:00 PM
How do we know VitalOne will pray? what proof is there?
He seems sincere. It's the honor system.
You are human draqon. No amount of trained mind can overcome genetics.
wrong.
How? Can mind overcome matter so that genetics no longer rule the subconscious? Is that even possible>?
shichimenshyo
10-22-07, 11:30 PM
I think this should be interesting but let me bring up the point that Vital also made, and thats that god only helps those who helps themselves, so he now has a wonderful copout, he can say that he prayed for you, but that you didnt convert because you didnt help yourself convert. So in a sence if you are not trying to become a christian you never will become one.
But lets see, Im interested.
VitalOne
10-22-07, 11:49 PM
How could you all forget the fundamental rule of Christiandom making this test totally obsolete? Thou shalt not test thy God?
I don't feel that I'm tempting God "Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah" (Deutronomy 6:16)
Rather I am simply manifesting a desire, just the way Jesus describes to, rather I am testing my own self (I'm not directly asking God to fulfill a desire)
How do we know VitalOne will pray? what proof is there?
I'll tell you when the manifestation (prayer) has begun, I didn't correctly think out the intention yet
Correct intention destroys craving, desperation, insecurity, the intention has to be highly desirable
I think this should be interesting but let me bring up the point that Vital also made, and thats that god only helps those who helps themselves, so he now has a wonderful copout, he can say that he prayed for you, but that you didnt convert because you didnt help yourself convert. So in a sence if you are not trying to become a christian you never will become one.
But lets see, Im interested.
Well there will definitely be some effect, just depends on how well I frame the desire and how much concentration I put into it, if it doesn't then I have failed
shichimenshyo
10-22-07, 11:50 PM
Good luck then
VitalOne
10-22-07, 11:55 PM
I am a buddhist.
Are you really a BUddhist? I don't think you are...I sincerely believe in Gautama Buddha, but I don't think you do...do you really believe in heaven/hell, Brahmas, ghosts, devas, spirits, reincarnation, reality is an illusion, faith in Gautama Buddha is good, the effect of karma?
Anyway regardless of if you really are a Buddhist I suggest the fastest path to full perfection in this lifetime is to destroy all your insecurities, develop a high concentration ability (there's this book called the Power of Concentration with good exercises in it), and maintain constant rememberance that all problems simply exist as feelings, impulses, etc...and nothing more
He seems sincere. It's the honor system.
I am sincere, but I have one question, what exactly am I manifesting? Is it that you all should "fully believe that God really exists"? I have to get the correct intention down
Oh yeah there should be some type of deadline for results, I say give it at least one month from when I start the manifestation...is that ok?
spidergoat
10-23-07, 12:03 AM
Pray that God turns me on to your logic system, so I will realize the error of my atheistic ways, and believe.
Pray that God turns me on to your logic system, so I will realize the error of my atheistic ways, and believe.
so who is it who is supposed to pray for who?
spidergoat
10-23-07, 12:06 AM
VitalOne is going to prove God's existence by praying me out of my faith in atheism.
VitalOne
10-23-07, 12:08 AM
Pray that God turns me on to your logic system, so I will realize the error of my atheistic ways, and believe.
Firstly I'm not praying to God directly, just manifesting a desire, the way Jesus and others have described to, to prove that it really works, this doesn't logically prove that God exists just that prayer manifestation works
Secondly that intention is too vague, it won't breed good results. What do you mean by my logic system? What is the end result?
VitalOne is going to prove God's existence by praying me out of my faith in atheism.
faith in no God, is that really a faith...more like a hole in the middle of white piece of clean paper.
spidergoat
10-23-07, 12:16 AM
And I am that hole.
And I am that hole.
very revealing. ;)
spidergoat
10-23-07, 12:39 AM
I think I'm supposed to see a bright light, or something. And an angel leading me up out of the pit.
I think I'm supposed to see a bright light, or something. And an angel leading me up out of the pit.
nope...you are supposed to see the mirror reflections of yourself...recognize them as your own and be reborn...do not recognize them as your own and you shall drift amidst nothingness.
Crunchy Cat
10-23-07, 01:42 AM
VitalOne has agreed to an experiment testing the God hypothesis. The creation of this project is documented here. (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=1589557#post1589557)
...
...
...
Ooh, if Vital is still accepting volunteers to be 'theised' through the power of paryer then I volunteer too!
greenberg
10-23-07, 03:39 AM
VitalOne is going to prove God's existence by praying me out of my faith in atheism.
My take is that you already believe in God, in some way or other, but you have no faith to find happiness with God.
What Vital One (or any other theist) would have to do, is to actually convince you that true happiness lies only with God, can only be given by God, that you are helpless and that you need God.
As long as you have your wits about, I don't think anyone could convince you of that!
:)
crunchy: lets not all try to overwhelm the guy, it's impossible now, without stopping him before he starts, there’s more chance of a God existing, then him converting an Atheist.
Wisdom_Seeker
10-23-07, 09:57 AM
This thread is interesting, I believe in the power of prayers considering that words are magical talismans... Something might just happen you guys, stop fooling around, the end is near!!!
SkinWalker
10-23-07, 10:41 AM
One thing's for sure, when it doesn't work, VO has an infinite number of ways out of the challenge: spidergoat didn't truly want "help;" we can't know [insert favorite god]'s plan; it did work and spidergoat won't admit it; etc., etc.
I'm sure VO isn't worried about losing the challenge since he can always transfer blame for its ultimate and predictable failure.
VitalOne
10-23-07, 10:52 AM
This thread is interesting, I believe in the power of prayers considering that words are magical talismans... Something might just happen you guys, stop fooling around, the end is near!!!
Words are magic talismans? I'm not using mantras or anything like that
I don't know if that will be effective, all I'm doing is taking a desire and imagining the feeling of it already happening, thats what I've found to work everytime
But I didn't start yet, I need to get the right intention
VitalOne
10-23-07, 10:55 AM
One thing's for sure, when it doesn't work, VO has an infinite number of ways out of the challenge: spidergoat didn't truly want "help;" we can't know [insert favorite god]'s plan; it did work and spidergoat won't admit it; etc., etc.
I'm sure VO isn't worried about losing the challenge since he can always transfer blame for its ultimate and predictable failure.
If it doesn't work, then the only person who has failed is me, my own self
I didn't start yet, still trying to get the best desire, but when I do spidergoat and Enmos will definitely feel the effects
I'm sure after it DOES work SkinWalker and all the atheists will always have a way out (atheism is unfalsifiable), they'll say something like "this doesn't prove anything, it must be some psychological trick" they always have the way out either way, atheism is unfalsifiable, just like any other faith-based belief system
Spud Emperor
10-23-07, 11:05 AM
Concentrate hard Vital One, atheists have one thing in common, they seek the truth.
Show us the truth!
Can I ask Vital One or Seti alpha or Lightgigantic to show me the truth?
My belief is that Yee who follow the path of the lord must relinquish their sense of humour to honour thy lord who it seems was quite a serious chap!
I therefore believe that a true believer has their humour removed from their being.
Being a seeker of truth I ask that the lord showeth me througheth his disciples a sign.
A sign that despite their allegiance to his will, they will each relinquish their abstinence from said humour to have me rolling around the aisles at which point I shall declareth a freakin' miracle and sign up for eternity and then some.
Respectfully, Spud ( in God's image but a bit blacker).
VitalOne
10-23-07, 11:16 AM
Concentrate hard Vital One, atheists have one thing in common, they seek the truth.
Show us the truth!
Can I ask Vital One or Seti alpha or Lightgigantic to show me the truth?
My belief is that Yee who follow the path of the lord must relinquish their sense of humour to honour thy lord who it seems was quite a serious chap!
I therefore believe that a true believer has their humour removed from their being.
Being a seeker of truth I ask that the lord showeth me througheth his disciples a sign.
A sign that despite their allegiance to his will, they will each relinquish their abstinence from said humour to have me rolling around the aisles at which point I shall declareth a freakin' miracle and sign up for eternity and then some.
Respectfully, Spud ( in God's image but a bit blacker).
If you were really a seeker of the truth then you would be agnostic at least, but you're just another delusional atheist trapped in your own ignorant delusional fantasy world, believing "evidence causes something to become true", atheists don't seek the truth, thats why they never consider any evidence of God given, they always have a new excuse a new way out, then when asked "So what can be considered evidence of God and not a 'god of the gaps'?" they are speechless, get upset and are angered, knowing that they really can't give an example and their faith is unfalsifiable
Atheists ALWAYS have a way out, regardless of it works (just like James Randi), atheism is unfalsifiable, if it really does work they'll just say "so what this doesn't prove anything, must be some psychological trick or a causeless coincidence", if it doesn't work they'll say "see manifestation doesn't work" all done in order to preserve the atheistic faith-based beleif system
SkinWalker
10-23-07, 11:23 AM
One thing's for sure, whether it works or doesn't work, this thread is more about pyschic powers than divinity and probably should be in the parapsychology or pseudoscience forums. But we'll tolerate it for now....
Spud Emperor
10-23-07, 11:30 AM
Yeah, I think that's quite funny, I'm waivering.
You have me all wrong Vital One.
One question, Vital One, If I died now, would I die young, die pretty or diagnostic?
Fark I'm a funny bastard! Someone show me the light!
Shit! One more question...if it's O.K and I presume it's O.K because I'm led to believe that good Christian folk ARE forgiving by nature( not to be confused with naturism)
If I'm a delusional atheist, does that mean I'm a confused Theist?
Please help. I fear I can not much longer face these eternal questions without some ... intervention! At your Forgiving and merciful hands, Spud ( the black incarnation, it's not a flower, of Gawd)
Seriously, help me through this!
Crunchy Cat
10-23-07, 12:16 PM
One thing's for sure, whether it works or doesn't work, this thread is more about pyschic powers than divinity and probably should be in the parapsychology or pseudoscience forums. But we'll tolerate it for now....
Technically, all Theistical claims belong in parapsychology / pseudoscience :)
Crunchy Cat
10-23-07, 12:23 PM
...theres more chance of a God existing, then him converting an Atheist.
Now thats comedy!
I promise to be honest and receptive as well. I had a Christian upbringing until the age of ten or so when I started thinking for myself regarding this subject. I also own a bible and went to Christian schools until the age of 19.
In Roman times, those charged with believing in God were called atheists. So, in a relative way, you have already declared your belief in God.
In Roman times, those charged with believing in God were called atheists. So, in a relative way, you have already declared your belief in God.
We don't live in Roman times.. i think..
shichimenshyo
10-23-07, 03:10 PM
In Roman times, those charged with believing in God were called atheists. So, in a relative way, you have already declared your belief in God.
your soo right!!!
Wisdom_Seeker
10-23-07, 05:15 PM
Words are magic talismans? I'm not using mantras or anything like that
I don't know if that will be effective, all I'm doing is taking a desire and imagining the feeling of it already happening, thats what I've found to work everytime
But I didn't start yet, I need to get the right intention
That is the only reason I say that words are talismans. Each word is full of intention, and when you say a word, you inmediately project an image of what it means to you in your head, and that is the power behing mantras. The power is not in the word itself, but the feelings and images you get in your head by the mere fact of thinking of the word.
If you can project the intentions without words, then it is the same stuff, but it is more difficult to achieve by most people; you normally use words, even when you donīt say them outloud.
I don't know if that will be effective, all I'm doing is taking a desire and imagining the feeling of it already happening, thats what I've found to work everytime
But I didn't start yet, I need to get the right intention
Oh, I see what youīre saying. But this is not prayer, it is Law of Attraction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Attraction).
This will be fun to watch, it will be like a movie: "Spidergoat and Emmos Reloaded - The realization of the theist within".
ghost7584
10-23-07, 05:33 PM
Are you really a BUddhist? I don't think you are...I sincerely believe in Gautama Buddha, but I don't think you do...do you really believe in heaven/hell, Brahmas, ghosts, devas, spirits, reincarnation, reality is an illusion, faith in Gautama Buddha is good, the effect of karma?
Anyway regardless of if you really are a Buddhist I suggest the fastest path to full perfection in this lifetime is to destroy all your insecurities, develop a high concentration ability (there's this book called the Power of Concentration with good exercises in it), and maintain constant rememberance that all problems simply exist as feelings, impulses, etc...and nothing more
I am sincere, but I have one question, what exactly am I manifesting? Is it that you all should "fully believe that God really exists"? I have to get the correct intention down
Oh yeah there should be some type of deadline for results, I say give it at least one month from when I start the manifestation...is that ok?
I predict complete failure of this experiment. A real Christian does not believe in bhudda, or reincarnation or any other false religious junk. If you are not a real Christian, or at least seeking to become one, then the true God won't even hear your prayers, according to the bible.
Failed experiment. Even if a real Christian prayed for these guys, it would still be up to them to get saved. If they are demon possessed, (many people are) the problem of them coming to a belief in God and true knowledge of salvation would be greatly hindered.
IT IS NOT ENOUGH TO BELIEVE IN GOD. YOU MUST ALSO BELIEVE IN JESUS AND REPENT OF SIN. [Read the King James version New Testament for the true teachings of the real God.]
Wisdom_Seeker
10-23-07, 05:41 PM
A real Christian does not believe in bhudda, or reincarnation or any other false religious junk.
lol;
First, thank God that Christians donīt believe in "bhudda", that guy had no clue.
So reincarnation is false religion junk, but hell, heaven, virgin birth, walk on water, transform water into wine: that is all so damn scientific.
Sock puppet path
10-23-07, 05:42 PM
I propose everybody just cut out the snide remarks and accusations and await results with baited breath theist and atheist alike.
VitalOne
10-23-07, 08:47 PM
That is the only reason I say that words are talismans. Each word is full of intention, and when you say a word, you inmediately project an image of what it means to you in your head, and that is the power behing mantras. The power is not in the word itself, but the feelings and images you get in your head by the mere fact of thinking of the word.
If you can project the intentions without words, then it is the same stuff, but it is more difficult to achieve by most people; you normally use words, even when you donīt say them outloud.
Well I know that, its because sounds are energy, but I don't find it effective
Oh, I see what youīre saying. But this is not prayer, it is Law of Attraction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Attraction).
This will be fun to watch, it will be like a movie: "Spidergoat and Emmos Reloaded - The realization of the theist within".
THERE IS NO LAW OF ATTRACTION, ITS JUST NEW AGE BS
From what I've found...you see the New Ager in their mind says "Manifestation works, so that means that Law of Attraction must work", how disgusting are New Agers, but after meditating on true knowledge of how manifestation works, it doesn't work like that at all, there is no Law of Attraction to be found anywhere in science like they falsely procalim, also manifestation has been mentioned by everyone, Buddha, Jesus, Krishna, etc...
The way it really works is this is your personal universe, everything is made of thought-energy, when you imagine the feeling of already having a desire you generate the thought-energy of the desire, from this thought-energy you move closer into the universe where your desire has occured
The movie "The Secret" is the most disgusting of all, falsely making it seem like wishful positive thinking works, when in reality positive thinking can have no effect, it just depends on the thought-energy (karma) you output
VitalOne
10-23-07, 08:53 PM
I predict complete failure of this experiment. A real Christian does not believe in bhudda, or reincarnation or any other false religious junk. If you are not a real Christian, or at least seeking to become one, then the true God won't even hear your prayers, according to the bible.
Failed experiment. Even if a real Christian prayed for these guys, it would still be up to them to get saved. If they are demon possessed, (many people are) the problem of them coming to a belief in God and true knowledge of salvation would be greatly hindered.
IT IS NOT ENOUGH TO BELIEVE IN GOD. YOU MUST ALSO BELIEVE IN JESUS AND REPENT OF SIN. [Read the King James version New Testament for the true teachings of the real God.]
I say the opposite, a REAL Christian believes in Jesus, and Jesus had mentioned reincarnation in early authentic Christian writings...
Also Jesus says "Forbid him not, for he who is not against us is for us", proclaiming religious tolerance, no problem with believing in Buddha
The supposedly real Christians are fake Christians, they are pretenders, just like Jesus says "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of God; but only he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matt 7:21-23)
The supposedly "REAL" Christians can careless about Jesus, what he says, the works he says to do, etc...they only care about hating others in name of Jesus
VitalOne
10-23-07, 10:45 PM
I just tried a test on spidergoat, this is what happened
For a moment spidergoat started believing God existed, but then he thought about the Bible something about 6000 years and tried to cancel it out, but there's still the effect
I need to fine-tune this...it'll definitely work
I just tried a test on spidergoat, this is what happened
For a moment spidergoat started believing God existed, but then he thought about the Bible something about 6000 years and tried to cancel it out, but there's still the effect
I need to fine-tune this...it'll definitely work
:o oh what a joker.
VitalOne
10-23-07, 10:49 PM
:o oh what a joker.
Ok...only spidergoat knows if its true or not
Can't wait to seriously try this...but even after it works atheists will have a brand new excuse refusing to believe in God "oh it doesn't matter doesn't prove anything, must be a psychological trick or a causeless coincidence"
Still need to fine-tune the desire to a perfect 10 in desirability...this is fun
Carcano
10-23-07, 10:50 PM
I will be fully converted...self-converted by the end of this year.
"God, make me chaste...but not yet."
-Saint Augustine.
"God, make me chaste...but not yet."
-Saint Augustine.
:rolleyes: I'm the one perfecting myself...not God.
Carcano
10-23-07, 10:54 PM
:rolleyes: I'm the one perfecting myself...not God.
Does that mean you'll be fully enlightened by the end of 2007?
VitalOne
10-23-07, 10:54 PM
:rolleyes: I'm the one perfecting myself...not God.
You're not a Buddhist stop faking, you're an Alan Watts fan, the Westerner type of Buddhist (you know ignore everything in Buddhism sounding supernatural)
Gautama would be ashamed...
So draqon, if it really does work, will you believe God exists or believe what I say is true or anything?
spidergoat
10-23-07, 10:59 PM
Nothing yet. Just checking in.
You're not a Buddhist stop faking, you're an Alan Watts fan, the Westerner type of Buddhist (you know ignore everything in Buddhism sounding supernatural)
Gautama would be ashamed...
So draqon, if it really does work, will you believe God exists or believe what I say is true or anything?
what works? your telepathy? ha ha ha...faked.
Does that mean you'll be fully enlightened by the end of 2007?
no it does not mean I will be full enlightened by than. It only means that I will be fully contempt of myself from there on to start my living as I have always dreamed of.
VitalOne
10-23-07, 11:02 PM
what works? your telepathy? ha ha ha...faked.
Thanks for the re-confirmation...you'll never believe regardless of it works or not :rolleyes:
Atheism is unfalsifiable, its just another faith
Thanks for the re-confirmation...you'll never believe regardless of it works or not :rolleyes:
Atheism is unfalsifiable, its just another faith
oh how did I know that you would purposely ask me something like that and whatever I answer you would claim to see the truth of light in all atheism combined...the paranoia...
VitalOne
10-23-07, 11:04 PM
oh how did I know that you would purposely ask me something like that and whatever I answer you would claim to see the truth of light in all atheism combined...the paranoia...
What are you talking about? You said if it does work you'll think it was faked...
Its a real shame these delusional atheists just can't admit that atheism is unfalsifiable, just like any other faith-based belief system, and that atheism IS a faith-based belief system
What are you talking about? You said if it does work you'll think it was faked...
Its a real shame these delusional atheists just can't admit that atheism is unfalsifiable, just like any other faith-based belief system, and that atheism IS a faith-based belief system
everything is faith based. :p you silly. one cannot not not believe.
Carcano
10-23-07, 11:08 PM
fully contempt of myself What does that mean?
What does that mean?
that means... I am sorry I cannot tell you what it means.
Carcano
10-23-07, 11:12 PM
that means... I am sorry I cannot tell you what it means.
Well say something poetic then, that suggests a meaning.
Come on...I know you can do it! :D
Well say something poetic then, that suggests a meaning.
Come on...I know you can do it! :D
to simply put it is a renovation project: converting 1800'th windmill into nuclear power station.
shaman_
10-24-07, 12:20 AM
Thanks for the re-confirmation...you'll never believe regardless of it works or not :rolleyes:
Atheism is unfalsifiable, its just another faithIf a god appears then atheism is falsified. Simple.
VitalOne
10-24-07, 01:33 AM
If a god appears then atheism is falsified. Simple.
You're basing this off an event...you can't gather this happening, its like a foolish person saying "Well you know if a comet hits Earth, then it exists, otherwise until then it cannot possibly exist, its just a delusional lie"
So atheism remains unfalsifiable, except for hypothetical evidence no one can possibly gather
Let me awaken yet another delusional atheist...
The truth is the truth with or without evidence...regardless of if something is proven or not, if its true its already true
Medicine*Woman
10-24-07, 01:36 AM
Thanks for the re-confirmation...you'll never believe regardless of it works or not :rolleyes:
Atheism is unfalsifiable, its just another faith*************
M*W: "Faith" is where you believe in something. "Atheism" is not. Why is it you people can't understand this? There is nothing to believe in.
VitalOne
10-24-07, 01:38 AM
*************
M*W: "Faith" is where you believe in something. "Atheism" is not. Why is it you people can't understand this? There is nothing to believe in.
Time to awaken another delusional atheist...
If you don't believe in something then you believe in something else...obviously
When will you guys wake up from this delusinal fantasy world
Carcano
10-24-07, 01:47 AM
If you don't believe in something then you believe in something else...obviously
Except that 'nothing' is not a something.
shaman_
10-24-07, 01:56 AM
You're basing this off an event...you can't gather this happening, its like a foolish person saying "Well you know if a comet hits Earth, then it exists, otherwise until then it cannot possibly exist, its just a delusional lie"If a comet hit the earth we could gather evidence of the event. If god appeared and performed amazing miracles we could gather evidence of the event.
Your analogy does nothing to support your position.
Atheism is falsifiable. Just because the evidence required to falsify atheism hasn't appeared that doesn't change that fact.
VitalOne
10-24-07, 02:01 AM
Except that 'nothing' is not a something.
No its not, its something, if you don't believe in something then you believe in an alternative obviously..
Time to awaken yet another delusional atheist....
Both of these are beliefs:
"I don't believe OJ Simpson killed his wife"
"I believe OJ Simpson killed his wife"
If a comet hit the earth we could gather evidence of the event. If god appeared and performed amazing miracles we could gather evidence of the event.
Your analogy does nothing to support your position.
Atheism is falsifiable. Just because the evidence required to falsify atheism hasn't appeared that doesn't change that.
YEAH ONLY AFTER THE EVENT HAPPENS
Weren't you paying attention? Ofcourse after the event happens you can gather evidence, but you can't gather an event happening...you can't possibly gather "God coming down one day" or "a comet hitting Earth", those events just happen, but you can't gather it happening
Atheism IS NOT FALSIFIABLE, why are you lying to yourself for? You can't gather an event happening, you can only gather evidence of after the event happened
So basically your argument is "Atheism is falsifiable if some hypothetical event happened of which no one possibly gather happening, but if it happened it would be falsified"
ROFL great tactic
Carcano
10-24-07, 02:13 AM
No its not, its something, if you don't believe in something then you believe in an alternative obviously.
Except that 'nothing' is not an alternate something.
VitalOne
10-24-07, 02:16 AM
Except that 'nothing' is not an alternate something.
Yes it is, atheists usually believe in naturalism, which is also unfalsifiable, everything happens by causeless chance + nature
How did the universe begin? "It spontaneously came into existence, naturally"
How did evolution happen? "By natural selection and mutations"
So basically atheists belive in causeless chance + nature are the cause of all things
pjdude1219
10-24-07, 02:24 AM
Yes it is, atheists usually believe in naturalism, which is also unfalsifiable, everything happens by causeless chance + nature
How did the universe begin? "It spontaneously came into existence, naturally"
How did evolution happen? "By natural selection and mutations"
So basically atheists belive in causeless chance + nature are the cause of all things
um their is evidence that proves the whole evolution thing you know right and there are a few different theories about how the universe started but i do not have enough understanding of that level of science to explain them
VitalOne
10-24-07, 02:26 AM
um their is evidence that proves the whole evolution thing you know right and there are a few different theories about how the universe started but i do not have enough understanding of that level of science to explain them
I never said there was no evidence...I'm not arguing whether or not evolution is true :rolleyes:
spidergoat
10-24-07, 02:46 AM
If Jerry Falwell prayed before a scientific panel of experts and God caused something extremely improbable to happen, like turned them all into chickens, that would prove atheism wrong. Thus, falsifiability.
VitalOne
10-24-07, 02:48 AM
If Jerry Falwell prayed before a scientific panel of experts and God caused something extremely improbable to happen, like turned them all into chickens, that would prove atheism wrong. Thus, falsifiability.
No it wouldn't they would say the ability to make things happen by your own will doesn't show that God exists....
So atheism would remain unfalsifiable
spidergoat
10-24-07, 02:49 AM
But it would show that naturalism is false, and superstitious and unexplainable powers existed.
VitalOne
10-24-07, 02:53 AM
But it would show that naturalism is false, and superstitious and unexplainable powers existed.
No it wouldn't...not if you found out how it naturally happens (like how I explained it happens)...naturalism is unfalsifiable
Its like someone saying since a caveman doesn't know how a TV works it proves magic exists
spidergoat
10-24-07, 02:59 AM
It's axiomatic that it's falsifiable. Just show something that doesn't follow natural laws, a brick defies gravity at whim. As Einstein said, the miracle is that miracles don't happen.
greenberg
10-24-07, 03:01 AM
Time to awaken yet another delusional atheist....
You have a bad attitude. And you're shooting yourself in the foot. If you spit at someone, no matter how much you think they deserve it - don't be surprised if they are not receptive of your message.
If you want people to heed you, you better stop treating them like shit.
VitalOne
10-24-07, 03:02 AM
It's axiomatic that it's falsifiable. Just show something that doesn't follow natural laws, a brick defies gravity at whim. As Einstein said, the miracle is that miracles don't happen.
If you showed a brick defying gravity they would try to explain how the brick naturally happened to defy gravity and if you said it was supernatural they would say it can't be, and if they could not explain it by naturalistic means they would say the "natural cause is currently unknown"...so naturalism is unfalsifiable...
There are lots of things where the natural cause is currently unknown..does this cause you to believe naturalism is false? Exactly.
VitalOne
10-24-07, 03:04 AM
You have a bad attitude. And you're shooting yourself in the foot. If you spit at someone, no matter how much you think they deserve it - don't be surprised if they are not receptive of your message.
If you want people to heed you, you better stop treating them like shit.
According to the moderators this is not an insult, so its allowed
I wonder why you don't tell atheists they have a bad attitude when they the same things :rolleyes:
greenberg
10-24-07, 03:07 AM
But it would show that naturalism is false, and superstitious and unexplainable powers existed.
But so what if those powers exist? Does it really make any difference? How would your life change if they existed?
I'd like to understand how come you're basing this "experiment" on beginning to believe in God by seeking proof for the existence of God.
If God (as various theisms describe God) existed, and you knew it, what do you expect knowing this would change for you?
pjdude1219
10-24-07, 03:07 AM
If you showed a brick defying gravity they would try to explain how the brick naturally happened to defy gravity and if you said it was supernatural they would say it can't be, and if they could not explain it by naturalistic means they would say the "natural cause is currently unknown"...so naturalism is unfalsifiable...
There are lots of things where the natural cause is currently unknown..does this cause you to believe naturalism is false? Exactly.
i think you spouting bullshit so i'm going to ask you to prove your statements
greenberg
10-24-07, 03:24 AM
I wonder why you don't tell atheists they have a bad attitude when they the same things
Because by virtue of your claims, you (and your knowledge) are superior to the atheists.
But if you are superior, then we are inferior; and if we are inferior, we can't know you (and your knowledge) are superior and honor you accordingly.
The problem is that you expect us to take your superiority for granted. Which we, delusional - per you - as we are, of course refuse to do - and how could we do any other way.
If you really want us to believe you and take you seriously, you'll have to do better.
VitalOne
10-24-07, 03:29 AM
Because by virtue of your claims, you (and your knowledge) are superior to the atheists.
But if you are superior, then we are inferior; and if we are inferior, we can't know you (and your knowledge) are superior and honor you accordingly.
The problem is that you expect us to take your superiority for granted. Which we, delusional - per you - as we are, of course refuse to do - and how could we do any other way.
If you really want us to believe you and take you seriously, you'll have to do better.
Yeah whatever, I could say the same about atheists "by your virtue atheists are superior to theists"
The real reason you don't say anything to the atheists is because you're not offended by the statements "theists are delusional and believe imaginary fantasy", thats fine with you...but "yet another delusional atheist" is such a horrible thing, you see your immense bias prevents you from seeing this
I don't care if you believe me or not, everything I say is logically sound, atheists can't handle it, their only option is to ignore the whole situation and pretend like it never happened
pjdude1219
10-24-07, 03:32 AM
Yeah whatever, I could say the same about atheists "by your virtue atheists are superior to theists"
The real reason you don't say anything to the atheists is because you're not offended by the statements "theists are delusional and believe imaginary fantasy", thats fine with you...but "yet another delusional atheist" is such a horrible thing, you see your immense bias prevents you from seeing this
I don't care if you believe me or not, everything I say is logically sound, atheists can't handle it, their only option is to ignore the whole situation and pretend like it never happened
um you logic is not sound you see first it has to be valid which it is not and also you know for something to be logically sound it must be true in the real world
VitalOne
10-24-07, 03:32 AM
um you logic is not sound you see first it has to be valid which it is not and also you know for something to be logically sound it must be true in the real world
What are you talking about?
Next time try to make sense
pjdude1219
10-24-07, 03:36 AM
What are you talking about?
Next time try to make sense
if you truely understood logic you would have understood what i said. the concepts of validity and soundness are the basis of logic but you don't seem to grasp them
VitalOne
10-24-07, 03:37 AM
if you truely understood logic you would have understood what i said. the concepts of validity and soundness are the basis of logic but you don't seem to grasp them
ROFL
pjdude1219
10-24-07, 03:40 AM
ROFL
i study logic in college i debate with my brother alot he is pre-law and has taken numerous logic courses i know what i'm talking about and if you want me to belive you understand the concepts just state the meanings of them
greenberg
10-24-07, 03:40 AM
I don't care if you believe me or not
This says it all.
The thing is, that you even might know God personally, you even might be superior to us, you might be God's Special Messenger - I am not excluding this possibility.
But with an attitude like this - I don't care if you believe me or not - you are betraying any gift that God might have bestowed upon you and you are betraying any knowledge that you might have.
But you seem to be too young and too inexperienced to know and value what it is that you're wasting.
VitalOne
10-24-07, 03:42 AM
i study logic in college i debate with my brother alot he is pre-law and has taken numerous logic courses i know what i'm talking about and if you want me to belive you understand the concepts just state the meanings of them
Then explain why its not logically sound instead of saying "its just not logically sound"
Sorry your "I just say so" arguments don't work
VitalOne
10-24-07, 03:44 AM
This says it all.
The thing is, that you even might know God personally, you even might be superior to us, you might be God's Special Messenger - I am not excluding this possibility.
But with an attitude like this - I don't care if you believe me or not - you are betraying any gift that God might have bestowed upon you and you are betraying any knowledge that you might have.
But you seem to be too young and too inexperienced to know and value what it is that you're wasting.
I never claimed to be God's messenger, if I was then maybe I would care, maybe I will become God's messenger
You also dodged out of everything else I said knowing that truly you are filled with immense bias
pjdude1219
10-24-07, 03:47 AM
Then explain why its not logically sound instead of saying "its just not logically sound"
Sorry your "I just say so" arguments don't work
because it cannot be known if some of your premises are true or nor not for it to be sound it must a be valid and b all premises must be true the lack of knowing if some are true or not makes it impossible for it to be sound
VitalOne
10-24-07, 03:50 AM
because it cannot be known if some of your premises are true or nor not for it to be sound it must a be valid and b all premises must be true the lack of knowing if some are true or not makes it impossible for it to be sound
Give an example...all you do is say things
greenberg
10-24-07, 03:53 AM
Vital One,
We don't really exist for you, do we?
pjdude1219
10-24-07, 03:55 AM
Give an example...all you do is say things
If you showed a brick defying gravity they would try to explain how the brick naturally happened to defy gravity and if you said it was supernatural they would say it can't be, and if they could not explain it by naturalistic means they would say the "natural cause is currently unknown"...so naturalism is unfalsifiable...
There are lots of things where the natural cause is currently unknown..does this cause you to believe naturalism is false? Exactly.
example found
Wisdom_Seeker
10-24-07, 12:07 PM
Well I know that, its because sounds are energy, but I don't find it effective
You donīt find it effective, but you are trying to do the same thing; therefore it cannot be effective if not even you trust in it.
THERE IS NO LAW OF ATTRACTION, ITS JUST NEW AGE BS
From what I've found...you see the New Ager in their mind says "Manifestation works, so that means that Law of Attraction must work", how disgusting are New Agers, but after meditating on true knowledge of how manifestation works, it doesn't work like that at all, there is no Law of Attraction to be found anywhere in science like they falsely procalim, also manifestation has been mentioned by everyone, Buddha, Jesus, Krishna, etc...
The way it really works is this is your personal universe, everything is made of thought-energy, when you imagine the feeling of already having a desire you generate the thought-energy of the desire, from this thought-energy you move closer into the universe where your desire has occured
The movie "The Secret" is the most disgusting of all, falsely making it seem like wishful positive thinking works, when in reality positive thinking can have no effect, it just depends on the thought-energy (karma) you output
Ok, so for you, Law of Attraction do exist, and you personally practice it as youīve claimed, but you find the term "Law of Attraction" disgusting. Oh, and New Age BS, when it is just a name for what you are doing; there is something wrong there dude.
spidergoat
10-24-07, 12:53 PM
But so what if those powers exist? Does it really make any difference? How would your life change if they existed?
I'd like to understand how come you're basing this "experiment" on beginning to believe in God by seeking proof for the existence of God.
If God (as various theisms describe God) existed, and you knew it, what do you expect knowing this would change for you?
Good question. I think the impact of this would be significant, not just for me, but for all of society. We would give up science and start praying. Religious people would gain political power and promote theocracy. Science would be an illusion, since natural laws could change at whim.
spidergoat
10-24-07, 12:55 PM
For VitalOne,
What if a brick suddenly turned into a flower, with all trickery accounted for, a controlled situation. This would prove naturalism is false.
greenberg
10-24-07, 01:19 PM
Good question. I think the impact of this would be significant, not just for me, but for all of society. We would give up science and start praying. Religious people would gain political power and promote theocracy. Science would be an illusion, since natural laws could change at whim.
But in that case, we wouldn't perceive this to be a loss or a disadvantage. I do suspect we'd live in a tempest of fear and hope.
To add - I'm not Buddhist, but their teachings make some good points, such as this one:
"Monks, there are these three sectarian guilds that when cross-examined, pressed for reasons, & rebuked by wise people even though they may explain otherwise, remain stuck in [a doctrine of] inaction. Which three?
...
"Having approached the priests & contemplatives who hold that... 'Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by a supreme being's act of creation,' I said to them: 'Is it true that you hold that... "Whatever a person experiences... is all caused by a supreme being's act of creation?"' Thus asked by me, they admitted, 'Yes.' Then I said to them, 'Then in that case, a person is a killer of living beings because of a supreme being's act of creation. A person is a thief... unchaste... a liar... a divisive speaker... a harsh speaker... an idle chatterer... greedy... malicious... a holder of wrong views because of a supreme being's act of creation.' When one falls back on creation by a supreme being as being essential, monks, there is no desire, no effort [at the thought], 'This should be done. This shouldn't be done.' When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. One cannot righteously refer to oneself as a contemplative. This was my second righteous refutation of those priests & contemplative who hold to such teachings, such views.
Source (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.061.than.html)
I agree with the Buddha on this point. I can't conceive how one could believe in God and still be happy. Hence my wondering about how come you took up this experiment.
spidergoat
10-24-07, 02:21 PM
I have no desire to be happy. I am taking up this experiment because if God would reveal itself to me, I would have to accept it as truth. I only want to know the truth. I'm also a big fan of Buddhism, but I'd like to respond to this:
"When one can't pin down as a truth or reality what should & shouldn't be done, one dwells bewildered & unprotected. "
Yes. Exactly.
Look, and it can't be seen.
Listen, and it can't be heard.
Reach, and it can't be grasped.
Above, it isn't bright.
Below, it isn't dark.
Seamless, unnamable,
it returns to the realm of nothing.
Form that includes all forms,
image without an image,
subtle, beyond all conception.
Approach it and there is no beginning;
follow it and there is no end.
You can't know it, but you can be it,
at ease in your own life.
Just realize where you come from:
this is the essence of wisdom.
TTC vs 14
Wisdom_Seeker
10-24-07, 02:29 PM
Buddhism and Daoism together? We are talking "Zen" here dude.
greenberg
10-24-07, 02:35 PM
I have no desire to be happy.
I do, though.
I think that all people want to be happy, and that nobody wants to suffer. But the pursuit of happiness has gotten a bad reputation, especially in the West. As if it were something shallow and fake.
I only want to know the truth.
There are many truths. Most of them are useless in the pursuit of happiness and making an end to suffering.
My focus is on the truths that are both true and useful.
spidergoat
10-24-07, 02:45 PM
The pursuit of happiness is precisely what causes misery.
ghost7584
10-24-07, 02:50 PM
I say the opposite, a REAL Christian believes in Jesus, and Jesus had mentioned reincarnation in early authentic Christian writings...
Also Jesus says "Forbid him not, for he who is not against us is for us", proclaiming religious tolerance, no problem with believing in Buddha
The supposedly real Christians are fake Christians, they are pretenders, just like Jesus says "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of God; but only he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works. And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity" (Matt 7:21-23)
The supposedly "REAL" Christians can careless about Jesus, what he says, the works he says to do, etc...they only care about hating others in name of Jesus
Jesus never mentioned reincarnation. Reincarnation comes from Hindu religion. Jesus speaks of heaven and hell. The bible speaks of resurection, being reunited with your body, and then you either go to the kingdom of heaven or into the lake of fire.
Believe in Jesus and repent, (follow His teachings in the KJV New Testament) and you will be happy forever in heaven. Don't believe in Jesus or don't repent of sin, and you will be tormented forever in a lake of fire as a punishment.
Eternal happiness is balanced against eternal suffering.
greenberg
10-24-07, 02:58 PM
The pursuit of happiness is precisely what causes misery.
Of course, much of our pursuit for happiness causes suffering.
But I have faith that not all pursuit of happiness causes suffering.
spidergoat
10-24-07, 03:01 PM
Jesus never mentioned reincarnation. Reincarnation comes from Hindu religion. Jesus speaks of heaven and hell. The bible speaks of resurection, being reunited with your body, and then you either go to the kingdom of heaven or into the lake of fire.
Believe in Jesus and repent, (follow His teachings in the KJV New Testament) and you will be happy forever in heaven. Don't believe in Jesus or don't repent of sin, and you will be tormented forever in a lake of fire as a punishment.
Eternal happiness is balanced against eternal suffering.
Doesn't revelations say something about all the dead coming back to live in a paradise on Earth when it's all over?
spidergoat
10-24-07, 03:07 PM
Buddhism and Daoism together? We are talking "Zen" here dude.
I find they are very similar. Only by giving yourself up to be unprotected and bewildered can the truth enter. Ideologies are like self-defense mechanisms. Jesus seemed to do the same thing on the cross. Instead of getting all his disciples to fight back or go into hiding, Jesus gave himself up, and thus served as an example to others of the evil of the Roman justice system (one presumes this was already obvious, but hey).
spidergoat
10-24-07, 03:17 PM
Here's a great debate between Christopher Hitchens and some religious guy.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6851159367044940771&hl=en
Crunchy Cat
10-24-07, 03:33 PM
So, has Vital prayed anyone into a Theist yet?
He turned me into a Myuunitarian.
spidergoat
10-24-07, 03:46 PM
I don't feel any more theistic. Give it time to work.
Wisdom_Seeker
10-24-07, 04:00 PM
Jesus never mentioned reincarnation. Reincarnation comes from Hindu religion. Jesus speaks of heaven and hell. The bible speaks of resurection, being reunited with your body, and then you either go to the kingdom of heaven or into the lake of fire.
Believe in Jesus and repent, (follow His teachings in the KJV New Testament) and you will be happy forever in heaven. Don't believe in Jesus or don't repent of sin, and you will be tormented forever in a lake of fire as a punishment.
Eternal happiness is balanced against eternal suffering.
Luke 16:9
"And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations."
=
Reincarnation
VitalOne
10-24-07, 04:06 PM
You donīt find it effective, but you are trying to do the same thing; therefore it cannot be effective if not even you trust in it.
Well I have tried mantras before, they generate energy but its not as effective from my personal experiences, you have to get the correct sounds and all this unneccessary things
Ok, so for you, Law of Attraction do exist, and you personally practice it as youīve claimed, but you find the term "Law of Attraction" disgusting. Oh, and New Age BS, when it is just a name for what you are doing; there is something wrong there dude.
No, for the me the Law of Attraction DOES NOT exist...didn't you read what I wrote?
The Law of Attraction states that "like energy attracts like energy", which I found to be false while seeking the truth, though before I considered that it could be true...the reason New Ageism isn't attractive to me is simply because it's just another faith-based belief system, they don't care about the actual truth, they care about preserving their propaganda, just like atheists, Christians, etc...the truth is irrevelant to them
For VitalOne,
What if a brick suddenly turned into a flower, with all trickery accounted for, a controlled situation. This would prove naturalism is false.
:rolleyes:
No it wouldn't, all it proves is that it's possbile for matter to be transformed...which we already know is possible :rolleyes:
I don't know how anyone could possibly think that would falsify naturalism in any degree...otherwise everything we already know to be true falsifies naturalism
Jesus never mentioned reincarnation. Reincarnation comes from Hindu religion. Jesus speaks of heaven and hell. The bible speaks of resurection, being reunited with your body, and then you either go to the kingdom of heaven or into the lake of fire.
Believe in Jesus and repent, (follow His teachings in the KJV New Testament) and you will be happy forever in heaven. Don't believe in Jesus or don't repent of sin, and you will be tormented forever in a lake of fire as a punishment.
Eternal happiness is balanced against eternal suffering.
Sure, he did, he says it right here:
Jesus said, "Lucky is the lion that the human will eat, so that the lion becomes human. And foul is the human that the lion will eat, and the lion still will become human."
"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" (John 8:58)
Your beliefs are not based off Jesus himself but rather the Church, the people which Jesus proclaimed were the ''generation of vipers", ofcourse I agree that repenting and having faith in Jesus is good, but Jesus NEVER says you'll eternally burn in hell, nor does he preach intolerance :rolleyes:
Wisdom_Seeker
10-24-07, 04:08 PM
I find they are very similar. Only by giving yourself up to be unprotected and bewildered can the truth enter. Ideologies are like self-defense mechanisms. Jesus seemed to do the same thing on the cross. Instead of getting all his disciples to fight back or go into hiding, Jesus gave himself up, and thus served as an example to others of the evil of the Roman justice system (one presumes this was already obvious, but hey).
Yes yes, very similar, although misinterpreted much. Thatīs why I brought up "Zen", Zen is nothing but a fusion of Buddhism and Taoism. That is what Bodhidharma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhidharma) was inflluenced by, Mahayana Buddhism and Taoism.
spidergoat
10-24-07, 04:10 PM
Yes yes, very similar, although misinterpreted much. Thatīs why I brought up "Zen", Zen is nothing but a fusion of Buddhism and Taoism. That is what Bodhidharma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhidharma) was inflluenced by, Mahayana Buddhism and Taoism.
yes probably
and western zen, which is sometimes ridiculed, is a fusion of western secularism and zen buddhism
VitalOne
10-24-07, 04:11 PM
So, has Vital prayed anyone into a Theist yet?
I haven't tried anything yet, but I will soon, still didn't get the intention down
Crunchy Cat
10-24-07, 04:11 PM
I haven't tried anything yet, but I will soon, still didn't get the intention down
Thanks for the update.
Crunchy Cat
10-24-07, 04:12 PM
He turned me into a Myuunitarian.
Glory Hallelujah! All praise the great Myuu!
"Spidergoat and Emmos Reloaded - The realization of the theist within"
lol Well, lets wait and see.
The movie might be canceled though, rumors are that a very important actor to the plot didn't show up yet :p
Just being humorous, no need to get all upset :)
Oh and it's Enmos ;)
Michael
10-24-07, 08:36 PM
So anything happen yet?
ghost7584
10-24-07, 10:28 PM
Doesn't revelations say something about all the dead coming back to live in a paradise on Earth when it's all over?
The way it is in the bible:
There is a resurection of the righteous Christians and they go up to meet Jesus in the air, along with the living Christians at Jesus' return. Then He comes down with an army of angels (possibly ufo aliens) they take over the planet by force at armageddon. The angels gather the sinners, people that heard of Jesus but never got saved, etc. and cast them into hell. Jesus and the saints then rule and reign with Christ on the Earth for a thousand years. Satan and the devils are bound for those thousand years and can't tempt anyone, so there is peace and prosperity for a thousand years. At the end of the thousand years Satan is let loose to deceive whoever can be deceived. Those that are deceived and turn away from God, will be destroyed. Then there is a resurection of the dead sinners and wicked people. They are reunited with their bodies, judged out of what is recorded in the books about them and then cast into the lake of fire, to be punished forever. The people that remained Christians and were not deceived at the end of the thousand years will enter into a city about 15oo miles square and high called new Jerusalem. It has streets of gold, precious stones in the walls. There will be no more pain or suffering for those saints. No more tears. Happy forever.
Wisdom_Seeker
10-25-07, 11:16 AM
Then there is a resurection of the dead sinners and wicked people. They are reunited with their bodies, judged out of what is recorded in the books about them and then cast into the lake of fire, to be punished forever.
Apart from the obvious similarities between the whole statement and the "Lord of the Rings" plot; I wish to comment on this specific part because for me, it is a clear and simple explanation of reincarnation.
The "lake of fire" is nothing but our state of "constant desires" that arise in the mind during life. It is only desires that cause unconscious reincarnation over and over again; until worldly desires dissapear, in an eternal bliss.
So anything happen yet?
Not to me.. :shrug:
And I really doubt anything happened to Spidergoat either.
Wisdom_Seeker
10-25-07, 11:45 AM
Oh and it's Enmos ;)
God damn!! I didnīt see that letter there, very subliminal.
VitalOne
10-25-07, 02:54 PM
I didn't try anything yet I should really start...
spidergoat
10-25-07, 02:58 PM
Come one dude, the rapture's coming, evidently, and I want to be ready.
Crunchy Cat
10-25-07, 04:25 PM
Spidergoat... Spidergoat. Does whatever a Spidergoat can. Can he swing from a boat? No he can't 'cause he's a goat. Look out! Here comes the Spidergoat!
shichimenshyo
10-25-07, 04:27 PM
Spidergoat... Spidergoat. Does whatever a Spidergoat can. Can he swing from a boat? No he can't 'cause he's a goat. Look out! Here comes the Spidergoat!
:bugeye:
spidergoat
10-25-07, 04:40 PM
http://www.kevhopgood.co.uk/New%20Stuff/Spider-Goat.jpg
Crunchy Cat
10-25-07, 05:00 PM
http://www.kevhopgood.co.uk/New%20Stuff/Spider-Goat.jpg
Hahahah... beautiful!
VitalOne
10-25-07, 07:16 PM
Come one dude, the rapture's coming, evidently, and I want to be ready.
Yeah I'll get there eventually, still trying to get this desire right, maybe after 150 replies
Yeah I'll get there eventually, still trying to get this desire right, maybe after 150 replies
What do you mean replies ? On here ?
Michael
10-25-07, 07:42 PM
:bugeye:note: sung to the Spiderman tune :)
Michael
10-25-07, 07:45 PM
http://www.kevhopgood.co.uk/New%20Stuff/Spider-Goat.jpg
brilliant :)
brilliant :)
except its a picture of goat human...there is none there from a spider (the web looks more like a rope)
Michael
10-25-07, 07:48 PM
well i liked it :)
Dragon, do you want to post your rendition of a Spidergoat?
spidergoat
10-25-07, 07:51 PM
This is a serious thread about religion and the power of prayer, guys.
Crunchy Cat
10-25-07, 08:11 PM
That's right you heathens.
greenberg
10-26-07, 07:12 AM
Spidergoat, Enmos, and all others who are genuinely interested in someone else doing something so that you would begin to believe in God -
Watch out so that you don't become like those manic-depressed homeless people, dirty and stinky, muttering pseudophilosophical arguments about God to themselves. One moment praising God for His greatness, and the next moment cursing God for not existing.
This danger is real.
Yes, God might exist. Yes, you might come to know God. But God might also overwhelm you and rob you of sanity.
And God might not necessarily be the best option in the Universe.
spidergoat
10-26-07, 01:09 PM
I know someone like that, but it's due to schizophrenia. Ideas won't rob me of sanity.
http://russellsteapot.com/images/comics/2007/Image090.jpg
Spidergoat, Enmos, and all others who are genuinely interested in someone else doing something so that you would begin to believe in God -
Watch out so that you don't become like those manic-depressed homeless people, dirty and stinky, muttering pseudophilosophical arguments about God to themselves. One moment praising God for His greatness, and the next moment cursing God for not existing.
This danger is real.
Yes, God might exist. Yes, you might come to know God. But God might also overwhelm you and rob you of sanity.
And God might not necessarily be the best option in the Universe.
Thanks, but don't worry. The chance of that happening is practically zero ;)
greenberg
10-26-07, 02:03 PM
I know someone like that, but it's due to schizophrenia. Ideas won't rob me of sanity.
Never underestimate the power of ideas - for they can translate into intentions, and those into actions.
Also, beware that in theism, there is a lot of double binds. There is evidence that double binds can even lead to schizophrenia - link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind), or at least anxiety.
spidergoat
10-26-07, 02:10 PM
If this experiment works, then the idea that we should chose a religion based on it's psychological effects would be heresy. In other words, if it's possible for prayer to make me a believer, then the person who prayed for me is absolutely correct, and I have no choice but to believe in the truth of it. If it makes me crazy, then God wants me to be crazy.
greenberg
10-26-07, 02:38 PM
In other words, if it's possible for prayer to make me a believer, then the person who prayed for me is absolutely correct, and I have no choice but to believe in the truth of it. If it makes me crazy, then God wants me to be crazy.
All this along with the unspoken stipulation that believing in God is the absolutely best option in this Universe, and all others are inferior.
But are you sure that believing in God is the best option in this Universe?
Surely, God might be (about) the truth - but is it the best one?
By expressing willingness to believe in God, you are also implying that you are willing to forsake at least some, if not all other truths in this Universe, however beneficial for you (and others) they might be.
spidergoat
10-26-07, 03:00 PM
Not at all. I'm saying if VitalOne's prayer works and turns this atheist into a theist, then God must exist and there is no option except belief.
greenberg
10-26-07, 03:15 PM
I apologize, I previously haven't made my point sharply enough. I'll put it this way -
The Buddha believed in God (in that he acknowledged the existence of gods), but the Buddha didn't think that believing in God is the best option in this Universe.
I'm with the Buddha on this. The danger with believing in God is that a person gives the belief in God absolute supremacy above all other beliefs they might have - which is, of course, exactly what various theisms want.
But giving the belief in God absolute supremacy above all other beliefs one might have, possibly is NOT the best option in this Universe.
In fact, giving the belief in God absolute supremacy above all other beliefs one might have, is likely to cause tremendous suffering.
I find it scary that you seem to be willing to go crazy if God wants you so.
spidergoat
10-26-07, 03:20 PM
That doesn't make any sense. You can't be convinced there is a God, and then abandon that belief because you feel it doesn't suit you. Even Satanists believe in God, although they reject the moral lessons attributed to a God.
If God exists and I believe it, and that belief drives me crazy, I cannot make myself not believe it out of practical considerations.
greenberg
10-26-07, 03:31 PM
You can't be convinced there is a God, and then abandon that belief because you feel it doesn't suit you.
I defy that.
Even Satanists believe in God, although they reject the moral lessons attributed to a God.
Exactly. Believing in God does not necessarily mean agreeing with God or particular theistic claims.
If God exists and I believe it, and that belief drives me crazy, I cannot make myself not believe it out of practical considerations.
That might be so. But it is my stance that "practical considerations" eventually take over.
(To be noted here that I find the Buddhist concept of rebirth the most sensible one among various concepts of identity and life forms. The "practical considerations" might take a few lifetimes to take over, though.)
greenberg
10-26-07, 03:55 PM
PS.
Along with believing in God, you'd also have to believe many other things - to name just a few: that you are a finite entity, that you have identity, that you and God are two separate entities ...
These concepts are very problematic, to say the least, as the millenia of philosophical and religious ponderings show.
I'll leave you be now. But beware that being willing to believe in God can lead to great suffering.
thank you vitalone
i am now a bonafide theist
you will be rewarded
spidergoat
10-26-07, 04:11 PM
OK, let me try and clarify your position. You can believe in God, but not accept what has historically been said about it?
My point is that you cannot believe in God and not believe in God at the same time.
I defy that.
Exactly. Believing in God does not necessarily mean agreeing with God or particular theistic claims.
That might be so. But it is my stance that "practical considerations" eventually take over.
(To be noted here that I find the Buddhist concept of rebirth the most sensible one among various concepts of identity and life forms. The "practical considerations" might take a few lifetimes to take over, though.)
Greenberg, you are taking this way too seriously.
Spidergoat and I are both atheists for a very good reason and Vitalone claims he can convert us by using prayer.
We are just saying that he can take his best shot at it. And we, well I at least have little doubt that he is going to fail.
On the other hand, if I wake up one morning believing in God then that would show that God really exists (at least to me). Vitalone's prayers will then have worked.
greenberg
10-27-07, 09:29 AM
OK, let me try and clarify your position. You can believe in God, but not accept what has historically been said about it?
My point is that you cannot believe in God and not believe in God at the same time.
My point is that one can believe in God and not care about God or believing in God.
Something like having a scar on your skin: It's there, you acknowledge it, you don't deny it, but you pay it little or no attention and you don't think it defines you - because you have better things to focus on, like the strength of your muscles or your ability to concentrate.
greenberg
10-27-07, 09:34 AM
Greenberg, you are taking this way too seriously.
No, I'm not. I apologize if I came across as too interested.
I can only give you my personal testimony that seriously being willing to believe in God, seriously allowing for the possibility that believing in God is the best thing one can do, can lead to tremendous suffering. I've been there.
But if you're not taking this experiment seriously and are into it only half-heartedly - then I'm afraid you're just squandering precious time and energy.
spidergoat
10-27-07, 11:47 AM
I've never heard of that position, greenberg. There is a God, but so what, I don't worship it, and it doesn't play a part in my life. Strange.
No, I'm not. I apologize if I came across as too interested.
I can only give you my personal testimony that seriously being willing to believe in God, seriously allowing for the possibility that believing in God is the best thing one can do, can lead to tremendous suffering. I've been there.
But if you're not taking this experiment seriously and are into it only half-heartedly - then I'm afraid you're just squandering precious time and energy.
Well, if you mean by half-heartedly that I am an atheist then yeah I suppose you are right. But that's the whole point isn't it ?
Vitalone says he can convert atheists by using prayer, that's what's being tested right now.
All I really have to do is say "go ahead, test prayer on me". But I don't have to believe in it, otherwise the experiment is kind of nonsense don't you think ?
greenberg
10-28-07, 06:03 AM
I've never heard of that position, greenberg. There is a God, but so what, I don't worship it, and it doesn't play a part in my life. Strange.
It's not strange at all. It's from a fairly common Christian doctrine about who goes to hell. Namely, according to that doctrine, there are people who know God, but who refuse to worship Him, people who refuse to acknowledge God's superiority. According to that doctrine, these are the worst kind of people, destined for eternal damnation.
That there are people who know God, but who refuse to worship Him - this is also a fairly common assumption many theists are making when addressing atheists. When they accuse us of "lying to ourselves", "being proud", "being dishonest", "knowing the Truth but wilfully rebelling against it" - this is when they are implying that we know God, but refuse to bow to Him.
greenberg
10-28-07, 06:12 AM
Well, if you mean by half-heartedly that I am an atheist then yeah I suppose you are right.
No, that's not what I meant.
You said earlier -
On the other hand, if I wake up one morning believing in God then that would show that God really exists (at least to me).
I hope I'm wrong, but your attitude strikes me as a bit light.
It appears you're not all too worried over the possibility that believing in God could be severely detrimental for you.
Take another example: If someone claimed they can cast a spell on you, and then you'd become crazy - would you invite them to cast that spell on you?
No, that's not what I meant.
You said earlier -
I hope I'm wrong, but your attitude strikes me as a bit light.
It appears you're not all too worried over the possibility that believing in God could be severely detrimental for you.
Take another example: If someone claimed they can cast a spell on you, and then you'd become crazy - would you invite them to cast that spell on you?
Yeah sure, I know that can't be done. Spells are a fantasy.
Thing is, I am not too worried about waking up to believe in God because I don't think it is ever going to happen.
Let me put it this way, it would be a downright miracle if that happened.
:eek: ok spider if you pray iso i dont mind as long as no one gets hurt it dont matter what a person does with their beleif as long as they dont hurt others
but ahmm well prayer works for sum people and dont work for others
are you after a miracle or perhaps a superstring or are you just playing round with prayers to see if they work or not
i guess a child can give you that answer if you ask a child did they pray for sumthing and did it come true the answer is NO IT DIDNT and they still waitng for their wish from the falling star to work
well am sorry but if you do think it works does it look like it works to other people do you ever wonder why people laugh at others when they believe sumthing works to them it dont so you may see differently to others and you may look funny to kids if you say it does work prayer only works for people who believe adn dont care if others cant see it or not
as long as you believe and dont hurt no one is ok by me :eek:
Crunchy Cat
10-29-07, 02:02 AM
Oh my, our dear VitalOne appears to have been banned. I wonder if he can pray the system to unban him as well?
SnakeLord
10-29-07, 02:09 AM
I haven't tried anything yet
I don't get it. Usually you can't stop a theist "praying for you" and yet the minute someone asks you to pray for them you don't have the time?
Be honest: Are you scared you're going to fail?
[edit] Bugger, just saw the post above. Oh well
Oh my, our dear VitalOne appears to have been banned. I wonder if he can pray the system to unban him as well?
lol I wondered why things were so civilized all of a sudden ;)
Well, at least he has some time to focus on creating intend, or whatever..
Oww..!! I must have missed this LOL :roflmao:
I just tried a test on spidergoat, this is what happened
For a moment spidergoat started believing God existed, but then he thought about the Bible something about 6000 years and tried to cancel it out, but there's still the effect
I need to fine-tune this...it'll definitely work
Is it true Spidey ? ;)
mis-t-highs
10-29-07, 10:15 AM
vital ones banning: it's only short term he'll be back in a couple of days.
Godless
10-29-07, 06:44 PM
I've never heard of that position, greenberg. There is a God, but so what, I don't worship it, and it doesn't play a part in my life. Strange.
Well yes the position is called deists. Deists believe in god, but they don't follow any typical religion nor do they believe that god is involved in human affairs.
As for the prayer to change someone's point a view, is it this kind of pointless?
I've been prayed for many times, so they claim, yet I'm still 100% rational, I've not given up reason for myth & supernaturalism, I don't intend to give up logic over faith, so the prayer VO may or may not project is bound to fail, for the same fact that neither Spidergoat nor Enmos would abandon reason for myth. I suppose I'm correct in this assumption...:shrug:
spidergoat
10-29-07, 06:50 PM
I believe it's bound to fail, which is why if it does succeed, it would be miraculous.
To think of God as a metaphor for the interconnectedness of everything in the universe is a useful idea, but would this be much different than atheism? Since we aren't commanded to do anything in particular, it still leaves secular humanism in charge.
greenberg
10-30-07, 04:30 AM
Since we aren't commanded to do anything in particular
Actually, you are, but Vital One left that out.
You are commanded to love God, on your own accord.
The whole point with believing in God is that a person deliberately submits to God.
So for proper belief in God, two things are required:
1. knowing God
2. deliberately submitting to God.
You are not fulfilling these criteria, this is how this "experiment" doesn't work.
Actually, you are, but Vital One left that out.
You are commanded to love God, on your own accord.
The whole point with believing in God is that a person deliberately submits to God.
So for proper belief in God, two things are required:
1. knowing God
2. deliberately submitting to God.
You are not fulfilling these criteria, this is how this "experiment" doesn't work.
Who in his right mind would submit to something he doesn't belief in ??
spidergoat
10-30-07, 12:57 PM
Actually, you are, but Vital One left that out.
You are commanded to love God, on your own accord.
The whole point with believing in God is that a person deliberately submits to God.
So for proper belief in God, two things are required:
1. knowing God
2. deliberately submitting to God.
You are not fulfilling these criteria, this is how this "experiment" doesn't work.
But if God isn't involved in human society (deism), then he never commanded anything.
greenberg
10-30-07, 01:58 PM
That follows, yes.
But I'm not sure that a deist belief in God is of any use or makes any difference, or that it is even discernible (other than merely nominally).
(My point earlier about knowing God but refusing to worship Him, was not deist, though.)
Michael
10-30-07, 06:57 PM
So Spider are you theist yet??
Also, when I look at your avatar I can actually automatically imagine a roaring ghost-like noise. Anyone else have this happen to them?
Michael
spidergoat
10-30-07, 07:05 PM
Not yet.
superluminal
10-30-07, 07:30 PM
It's not strange at all. It's from a fairly common Christian doctrine about who goes to hell. Namely, according to that doctrine, there are people who know God, but who refuse to worship Him, people who refuse to acknowledge God's superiority. According to that doctrine, these are the worst kind of people, destined for eternal damnation.
And I always picture god up on his throne peering down through his magic looking glass, all red in the face with his fists balled up and going "Oooohhh! They make me sooooo mad! Those non-worshippers! I'll show them. When they die..."
Crunchy Cat
11-02-07, 12:18 PM
VitalOne is back from his ban. Has he prayed anyone into a Theist yet?
No. Maybe he has given up..
Crunchy Cat
11-02-07, 12:48 PM
No. Maybe he has given up..
If that's the case then he would have falsified his own claim :)
If that's the case then he would have falsified his own claim :)
Yeap.
greenberg
11-02-07, 01:23 PM
If that's the case then he would have falsified his own claim :)
He did say earlier on that he doesn't care whether we believe him or not - http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1591545&postcount=91.
If he doesn't care whether we believe him or not, I wonder how he is going to develop the right intention to pray for us to know God.
spidergoat
11-02-07, 03:26 PM
VitalOne is back from his ban. Has he prayed anyone into a Theist yet?
Yeah, last night I was drinking beer and watching my Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker re-runs on VHS, which I usually do for fun, then a bright light illuminated the entire room, and I felt a peace flow through me, and I knew that the Lord was real. I got down on my knees right then and prayed for forgiveness for my athiest ways. Praise the Lord!
redarmy11
11-02-07, 03:29 PM
How much beer?
Crunchy Cat
11-02-07, 11:44 PM
Yeah, last night I was drinking beer and watching my Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker re-runs on VHS, which I usually do for fun, then a bright light illuminated the entire room, and I felt a peace flow through me, and I knew that the Lord was real. I got down on my knees right then and prayed for forgiveness for my athiest ways. Praise the Lord!
Glorry Hallelujah! Amen brotha' goat!
VitalOne
11-03-07, 09:58 PM
Just a question, after this works will anyone actually re-consider their atheism?
Crunchy Cat
11-04-07, 12:01 AM
You bet.
Yes.
If it works I don't even need to reconsider, will I ?
greenberg
11-04-07, 05:57 PM
Just a question, after this works will anyone actually re-consider their atheism?
That is not a fair question, it is a double bind.
Regardless whether they answer yes or no, they lose.
If they answer yes, they have made an unqualified statement about the future; ie. they now don't know God yet and they don't know what it would be like to know God, therefore, they now can't make qualified statements about a possible future where they would know God.
If they answer no, they are sabotaging the experiment.
snake river rufus
11-04-07, 06:59 PM
OOH, OOH (waving hand wildly) I awoke this morning and and had to shout " Oh, haysoos" of course a large breasted blond stripper was performing felatio on me.:shrug:
Crunchy Cat
11-05-07, 03:08 AM
So, when is VitalOne going to perform?
VitalOne
11-05-07, 03:16 AM
That is not a fair question, it is a double bind.
Regardless whether they answer yes or no, they lose.
If they answer yes, they have made an unqualified statement about the future; ie. they now don't know God yet and they don't know what it would be like to know God, therefore, they now can't make qualified statements about a possible future where they would know God.
If they answer no, they are sabotaging the experiment.
Why isn't it a fair question?
Your answer seems to be no, re-confirming precisely what I said, atheism is unfalsfiable
The question was not would they become theists, the question was would they re-consider their atheism...
greenberg
11-05-07, 04:33 AM
VitalOne, do you know what a double bind is?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind
VitalOne
11-05-07, 05:50 PM
VitalOne, do you know what a double bind is?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_bind
This isn't double bind, it's a simple question would you reconsider your atheism....your answer?
TruthSeeker
11-06-07, 01:07 AM
So, if either I or Enmos, known atheists, suddenly admit belief in God, sometime after VitalOne declares the prayer to be finished, it will be proof that prayer works. It will also be a miracle. I agree to be receptive of suggestion (not actively working against the prayer), and honest about my beliefs.
It will never work. You have free will and that cannot be overriden. No matter how much Vital prays, it won't do nothing to you. Trust me, if prayer worked that way I would have had over 10 girlfriends in my life, not just 3.... :D
greenberg
11-06-07, 04:41 AM
would you reconsider your atheism....your answer?
I don't know. I don't know what it would be like to know God, so I can't answer either way.
Crunchy Cat
11-08-07, 11:49 PM
So Vital's second ban is over. When the hell is he going to perform? Or is his committment a lie?
fruityfigtree
11-09-07, 01:15 AM
This is the saddest thread I've come across. One of many things I don't get about athiests is their obsession with theism.
This is the saddest thread I've come across. One of many things I don't get about athiests is their obsession with theism.
:confused: lol
It's VitalOne that is obsessed.. :shrug:
VitalOne
11-09-07, 02:48 PM
Hey
After I finish this manifestation I'll be leaving the forum forever, the moderators won't tolerate criticism of atheism so I'm not welcomed here
I still didn't start, but once I do Enmos and spidergoat will be compelled to believe in God...in their mind they will say "no it couldn't possibly be because of VitalOne" and eventually become theistic
VitalOne
11-09-07, 02:51 PM
It will never work. You have free will and that cannot be overriden. No matter how much Vital prays, it won't do nothing to you. Trust me, if prayer worked that way I would have had over 10 girlfriends in my life, not just 3.... :D
You lack understanding....
Here's what's actually happening...
There's already another reality/universe where Enmos and spidergoat are theistic
We each exist in our own personal reality/universe
I'm alternating myself into the reality/universe where Enmos and spidergoat are theistic
You see, it doesn't contradict free will at all, because in that reality I enter into, Enmos and spidergoat with their own free-will are theistic
You lack understanding....
Here's what's actually happening...
There's already another reality/universe where Enmos and spidergoat are theistic
We each exist in our own personal reality/universe
I'm alternating myself into the reality/universe where Enmos and spidergoat are theistic
You see, it doesn't contradict free will at all, because in that reality I enter into, Enmos and spidergoat with their own free-will are theistic
...that was a joke right? Please tell me that was a joke.
VitalOne
11-09-07, 02:55 PM
...that was a joke right? Please tell me that was a joke.
No it's not, you're using personal incredulity, the many-minds interpretation of QM supports my assertion
spidergoat
11-09-07, 03:02 PM
I told you it worked in post #188.
Medicine*Woman
11-09-07, 06:15 PM
Hey
After I finish this manifestation I'll be leaving the forum forever, the moderators won't tolerate criticism of atheism so I'm not welcomed here
I still didn't start, but once I do Enmos and spidergoat will be compelled to believe in God...in their mind they will say "no it couldn't possibly be because of VitalOne" and eventually become theistic
*************
M*W: Buh bye.
Medicine*Woman
11-09-07, 06:16 PM
You lack understanding....
Here's what's actually happening...
There's already another reality/universe where Enmos and spidergoat are theistic
We each exist in our own personal reality/universe
I'm alternating myself into the reality/universe where Enmos and spidergoat are theistic
You see, it doesn't contradict free will at all, because in that reality I enter into, Enmos and spidergoat with their own free-will are theistic
*************
M*W: Why is it that atheists lack understanding, in your opinion, when the brainwashed among us seem to know it all?
greenberg
11-10-07, 03:52 AM
Hey guys,
I woke up the other day with a spot of about 7mm in diameter, on my forehead, right in the middle of the hairline. It has no crust, it looks bloody, and it won't heal. I have no idea how I got it, it just was there in the morning.
...
Hey guys,
I woke up the other day with a spot of about 7mm in diameter, on my forehead, right in the middle of the hairline. It has no crust, it looks bloody, and it won't heal. I have no idea how I got it, it just was there in the morning.
...
Maybe you turned Hindu.. blame VitalOne for screwing up ;)
Hey
After I finish this manifestation I'll be leaving the forum forever, the moderators won't tolerate criticism of atheism so I'm not welcomed here
I still didn't start, but once I do Enmos and spidergoat will be compelled to believe in God...in their mind they will say "no it couldn't possibly be because of VitalOne" and eventually become theistic
Well alright.
What's keeping you so long.. ? :shrug:
Crunchy Cat
11-16-07, 01:44 AM
Well I guess VitalOne lied.
I think he quietly left..
He said he was going to leave as soon as he converted us, but I haven't heard of him since.. and I'm not converted yet.
snake river rufus
11-21-07, 04:15 AM
This is the saddest thread I've come across. One of many things I don't get about athiests is their obsession with theism.
We don't try to force you to believe as we do. We don't form cults and hold meetings in tax exempt buildings denouncing you. We don't go door to door with our version of the 'watchtower'.
The obsession is entirely the theists.
snake river rufus
11-21-07, 04:17 AM
I think he quietly left..
He said he was going to leave as soon as he converted us, but I haven't heard of him since.. and I'm not converted yet.
Perhaps he left to study "logic" and "reason";)
Perhaps he left to study "logic" and "reason";)
:D
I'm sure he left without even trying. Not that it would have mattered.
Spud Emperor
11-21-07, 06:10 AM
I'll kind of miss Vital One.
I had him pictured as lanky, grey bearded chap with flowing robes to match his flyaway hair, singlemindedly trying to save the heathens, tapping away madly on his elevated keyboard from his rickety fruitbox, barely eating in his highly focussed quest.
I'm sure someone else will take up the mantle.
I'll kind of miss Vital One.
I had him pictured as lanky, grey bearded chap with flowing robes to match his flyaway hair, singlemindedly trying to save the heathens, tapping away madly on his elevated keyboard from his rickety fruitbox, barely eating in his highly focussed quest.
I'm sure someone else will take up the mantle.
I'm sure. It was pretty sad though..
snake river rufus
11-21-07, 07:35 AM
:D
I'm sure he left without even trying. Not that it would have mattered.
He appears to have left being unable to define the words, let alone apply either. But he was only 19 wasn't he? I would like to think that education and experience help most people to mature.
Of course, I'm often disappointed:bugeye:
He appears to have left being unable to define the words, let alone apply either. But he was only 19 wasn't he? I would like to think that education and experience help most people to mature.
Of course, I'm often disappointed:bugeye:
*Nods in agreement*
Jan Ardena
11-21-07, 08:14 AM
spidergoat,
So, if either I or Enmos, known atheists, suddenly admit belief in God, sometime after VitalOne declares the prayer to be finished, it will be proof that prayer works.
The underlying reason, IMO, why you don't believe in God, is because you don't have to, and therefore you choose not to.
It will also be a miracle. I agree to be receptive of suggestion (not actively working against the prayer), and honest about my beliefs.
Then you should view the transformation of former atheists like Anthony Flew, Fransic Collins, Alistair McGrath as miraculous events, stop beating about the bush, and open your mind to the broad aspect of life. :)
But somehow I don't think you will
VitalOne has a good chance. I own a bible, and some Elaine