View Full Version : it's time we dropped the label - the problem with atheism
This is an edited transcript of a talk given by Sam Harris at the Atheist Alliance conference in Washington D.C. on September 28th, 2007:
Sam Harris wrote:
"In thinking about what I could say to you all tonight, it seemed to me that I have a choice between throwing red meat to the lions of atheism or moving the conversation into areas where we actually might not agree. I’ve decided, at some risk to your mood, to take the second approach and to say a few things that might prove controversial in this context."
having read this, it enlightened me as to how much we live under a banner, and how this banner is used in a negative way by opposing forces, lately atheism has been brought to the fore, by the likes of dawkins, Dennet, and his nibs above, however is this the correct thing to do.
I dont think so, is it time we dropped the label.
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/sam_harris/2007/10/the_problem_with_atheism.html
wise words, dont you think.
snake river rufus
10-21-07, 04:32 AM
Do we use any label( i'm remembering 'brights';)) ourselves as much as the theists do for us. It seems to me that I normally hear the words "godless" ,"heathen", and"damned" before the word atheist. But I am in the bible belt.:rolleyes:
redarmy11
10-21-07, 04:40 AM
An 'alliance' of people who don't believe in something.
That's just the fucking tops! http://www.sciforums.com/images/icons/icon14.gif
The current label is perfectly adequate unless you intend to make not believing in something your main preoccupation.
Baron Max
10-21-07, 07:59 AM
Without such labels, how could we even communicate?
Baron Max
redarmy11
10-21-07, 08:07 AM
Without such labels, how could we even communicate?
Well, I haven't read the link :) but I don't think they want to drop it altogether Baron. I think they just want to replace it with something ludicrous.
Baron Max
10-21-07, 08:13 AM
Well, I haven't read the link, but I don't think they want to drop it altogether Baron. I think they just want to replace it with something ludicrous.
Is this for political correctness? Or because someone's tender little feelings might be hurt? :D
Baron Max
redarmy11
10-21-07, 08:21 AM
So, let me make my somewhat seditious proposal explicit: We should not call ourselves “atheists.” We should not call ourselves “secularists.” We should not call ourselves “humanists,” or “secular humanists,” or “naturalists,” or “skeptics,” or “anti-theists,” or “rationalists,” or “freethinkers,” or “brights.” We should not call ourselves anything. We should go under the radar—for the rest of our lives. And while there, we should be decent, responsible people who destroy bad ideas wherever we find them.
They needed a conference to decide this? :confused:
October
10-21-07, 08:52 AM
Maybe God gives us science to keep atheists happy.
Photizo
10-21-07, 09:00 AM
This is an edited transcript of a talk given by Sam Harris at the Atheist Alliance conference in Washington D.C. on September 28th, 2007:
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/sam_harris/2007/10/the_problem_with_atheism.html
wise words, it is time to drop the label.
Great piece. He's taken the first steps toward God...i.e. by being honest with himself about 'life' as it is sans a connection with/to God...the angst he describes in the article is nothing more than the onset of labor associated with becoming born again. Let's pray it doesn't end in a miscarriage.
The fact that everyone can identify with this angst he describes--if they will but honestly look at theimselves and their so called 'life'-- shows just how pervasive the denial is on the part of humanity concerning their latent desire for God...and how they tend to to meet this desire unsuccessfully through use of physical means: food, sex, travel, etc.
Ironically, he's unwittingly laid out for his fellow atheists the Divine strategy for bringing the prodigal human race back to Himself...that is, intellectual honesty leading to the eventual recognition of an unmet need...an 'itch' that cannot be scratched by any thing physical.
That 'itch' can only be scratched...that connection to God can only be made... through a combination of the physical and spiritual: The God-Man Jesus Christ.
Spud Emperor
10-21-07, 09:07 AM
Why did god make me an atheist?
Nikelodeon
10-21-07, 09:07 AM
Why did god make me an atheist?
Satan did.
snake river rufus
10-21-07, 10:00 AM
Great piece. He's taken the first steps toward God...i.e. by being honest with himself about 'life' as it is sans a connection with/to God...the angst he describes in the article is nothing more than the onset of labor associated with becoming born again. Let's pray it doesn't end in a miscarriage.
What a strange idea. Honest thought towards life leads to irrational beliefs? :shrug:
Photizo
10-21-07, 01:40 PM
What a strange idea. Honest thought towards life leads to irrational beliefs? :shrug:
Honest thought is "The Way" to Him Who is Life and Truth.
superluminal
10-21-07, 01:52 PM
Non-believers United in Truth Spreading (NUTS)
Nah. That sucks.
Atheists Pro Evolution (APE)
Horrible.
We Atheists Don't Buy It (WADBI)
That's it! I'm a WADBI.
charles brough
10-21-07, 02:54 PM
I started the speech but gave up with disgust. Why such a long diatribe just to try to get us to change a name? What is important is what we do and say, not what we and they call us. What we say and do is what needs improvement. There is nothing intrinsicely wrong with the atheism label. I much prefer it to "Brights." To try to change is a subterfuge and a sign of weakness. It is like labeling a race of cripples as a "special olympic." I don't feel desperate myself, do you?
charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com
Medicine*Woman
10-21-07, 03:04 PM
Non-believers United in Truth Spreading (NUTS)
Nah. That sucks.
Atheists Pro Evolution (APE)
Horrible.
We Atheists Don't Buy It (WADBI)
That's it! I'm a WADBI.
*************
M*W: What about:
A Truthful Heretic Emerging In Science Today (ATHEIST)
superluminal
10-21-07, 03:11 PM
*************
M*W: What about:
A Truthful Heretic Emerging In Science Today (ATHEIST)
That's great, but I thought we were trying to ditch the ATHEIST label?
superluminal
10-21-07, 03:13 PM
I started the speech but gave up with disgust. Why such a long diatribe just to try to get us to change a name? What is important is what we do and say, not what we and they call us. What we say and do is what needs improvement. There is nothing intrinsicely wrong with the atheism label. I much prefer it to "Brights." To try to change is a subterfuge and a sign of weakness. It is like labeling a race of cripples as a "special olympic." I don't feel desperate myself, do you?
charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com
I pretty much agree with this.
Atheism doesn't deserve a label. It's just a word the theists use to refer to people that don't believe.
superluminal
10-21-07, 03:44 PM
Atheism doesn't deserve a label. It's just a word the theists use to refer to people that don't believe.
Theism dosen't deserve a label. It's just a word atheists use to refer to morons.
Medicine*Woman
10-21-07, 05:21 PM
That's great, but I thought we were trying to ditch the ATHEIST label?
*************
M*W: Oh, my bad. In my being a creative genius, I wasn't paying attention!
snake river rufus
10-21-07, 05:32 PM
Honest thought is "The Way" to Him Who is Life and Truth.
Nooo, honest thought rejects the supernatural. Irrational thoughts allow one to accept an absurd thought and call it honest.
an Atheist is not something that you so much are. Rather, it's something you are from a Theistic perspective. Ultimately the word only says what you're not.
snake river rufus
10-21-07, 05:36 PM
I started the speech but gave up with disgust. Why such a long diatribe just to try to get us to change a name? What is important is what we do and say, not what we and they call us. What we say and do is what needs improvement. There is nothing intrinsicely wrong with the atheism label. I much prefer it to "Brights." To try to change is a subterfuge and a sign of weakness. It is like labeling a race of cripples as a "special olympic." I don't feel desperate myself, do you?
charles, http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com
Well said:bravo::bravo:
And further, why bother changing what we call ourselves. The uncritical majority will continue to use atheist.
lightgigantic
10-21-07, 05:36 PM
Theism dosen't deserve a label. It's just a word atheists use to refer to morons.
kind of predictable that you open up with some sort of philosophical rhetoric and wind down to ankle biting in a few moments ....
:rolleyes:
Theism dosen't deserve a label. It's just a word atheists use to refer to morons.
The word atheism requires the concept of theism to exist. Do you think it does an 'atheist' justice to be the mirror image of a theist ?
The current label is perfectly adequate unless you intend to make not believing in something your main preoccupation.
Isn't that precisely what the label suggests, to make not believing in something your main preoccupation ?
superluminal
10-21-07, 06:16 PM
kind of predictable that you open up with some sort of philosophical rhetoric and wind down to ankle biting in a few moments ....
:rolleyes:
Kind of predictable that you missed the fact that I was responding to a direct insult.
superluminal
10-21-07, 06:17 PM
The word atheism requires the concept of theism to exist. Do you think it does an 'atheist' justice to be the mirror image of a theist ?
I suppose I get it now. I retract my earlier statement.
snake river rufus
10-21-07, 07:00 PM
Isn't that precisely what the label suggests, to make not believing in something your main preoccupation ?
I do not know of any atheist that makes not believing their main preoccupation. Or even a major preoccupation. I don't think about it at all until a theist pushes themself on me. An example: I have a placard on my front door of 2 young people, holding a bible, witl
h the big red international 'NO over it. Yet nearly weekly some theist will knock and then appear surprised that I really meant "NO". " Surely, you didn't mean it" or "Don't you want to hear about haysoos".
Atheist do not go out of our way to bother you theists. Why won't you give us the same respect? :shrug:
superluminal
10-21-07, 07:16 PM
"haysoos".
Heh. Funny. :D
snake river rufus
10-21-07, 07:19 PM
I suppose I've been on the atheist boards too much
Exhumed
10-21-07, 07:21 PM
redarmy11 said it best.
I suppose I've been on the atheist boards too much
That might even have an ounce of truth.
snake river rufus
10-21-07, 07:39 PM
That might even have an ounce of truth.
Certainly not as long as you have sat in church being indoctrinated 'with scripture";)
I do not know of any atheist that makes not believing their main preoccupation. Or even a major preoccupation. I don't think about it at all until a theist pushes themself on me. An example: I have a placard on my front door of 2 young people, holding a bible, witl
h the big red international 'NO over it. Yet nearly weekly some theist will knock and then appear surprised that I really meant "NO". " Surely, you didn't mean it" or "Don't you want to hear about haysoos".
Atheist do not go out of our way to bother you theists. Why won't you give us the same respect? :shrug:
This was precisely my point though. I do not think about being an atheist, I don't need such a label. But fact is that the label (the word atheist) seems to indicate, to those who don't know what atheism is, that our main occupation is to not believe. Since this is not so it would be better to get rid of the term altogether.
I realize this is not realistic, they would just invent an other name for it. Hopefully a better one though ;)
snake river rufus
10-21-07, 07:56 PM
enmos, I think you're right, I'd go back to calling myself "skeptic", but I don't want to go to the meetings
enmos, I think you're right, I'd go back to calling myself "skeptic", but I don't want to go to the meetings
I rather don't call myself anything ;)
snake river rufus
10-21-07, 08:21 PM
I rather don't call myself anything ;)
What do you say when asked? I say "no" and try to drop it but you know theists. Sooner or later you are going to have to explain your rationality. The the "A" word comes up.
What do you say when asked? I say "no" and try to drop it but you know theists. Sooner or later you are going to have to explain you rationality. The the "A" word comes up.
Yeah, I know what you mean. There are situations you better say it, or else you are stuck for hours lol
Jeff 152
10-21-07, 09:08 PM
While it would be wonderful to not have a label, the label will remain as long as atheists are a minority. Labels are only used to designate devaition from the norm.
For example, I do not think I have ever heard the word "theist" used except in this religion forum. A person need not be labeled a a theist--if they are not labeled as an atheist, it is assumed they are a theist. Only recently has the label "straight" become used to be more politically correct. The label is still rarely used--the person is either labeled as homosexual or else has no label and is assumed straight.
To expand on the label of racist, this label actually reversed, and i think that something of this sort will eventually happen with atheism. A few hundred years ago, a majority thought blacks were inferior and should be slaves. For the sake of the analogy, I am going to equate pro-slavery with racism. When slavery and racism was the norm, racists needed no label, instead, it was the non-racists, or abolitionists, who were labeled. Once racism and slavery were not the majority opinion, the label "racist" emerged and the label "non-racist" or abolitionist disappeared.
So we atheists will continue to be labeled for the reason all deviations from the norm are labeled, to emphasize that we are "not normal" or "different" in society's eye. It is unfortunately inevitable. Whenever a discussion becomes somehow religious in nature or even if it is scientific and we talk about supporting evolution or something than the question inevitably comes up "uhh, are you an atheist?" I have never been talking with someone when their religious beliefs become apparent and ask "uhh are you a theist?" If and when atheism is the norm and belief in god is different, the label will disappear, and it will not disappear until then.
scorpius
10-21-07, 10:14 PM
What do you say when asked? I say "no" and try to drop it but you know theists. Sooner or later you are going to have to explain your rationality. The the "A" word comes up.
I say Im non-religious when theists are polite,friendly.
however if they get obnoxious with their propaganda its fng gloves off ... :D
geeser,
Great article, thanks for posting it.
is it time we dropped the labelYes. Definitely.
Will the label go away anytime soon? No.
Theists will continue to use the label and apply it to others because their scriptures use it to describe what they see as the unfortunates who no not believe as they do.
Our problem is that if we apply the label to ourselves it instantly brings up pre-conditioned theist teachings of what they think atheism means. I've lost count now of the number of times new members here raise their fallacious pre-conceptions and their deceitful conditioning of what atheism means and we have to explain its definition and so on and so on. Even there the idea of strong and weak is somewhat dissatisfying, and there is no consistency with dictionary definitions.
I haven't applied the label to myself for a long time and my perspectives on religion and mysticism go far beyond just a disbelief in gods, but instead are focused on reason versus faith as Sam Harris emphasizes. For example my arguments against the soul concept, which I think is more crucial than theism, applies to nearly all religions and superstitions and not just theistic religions.
The term Bright was an attempt to capture that essence of reasoned thought as a group of like minded people who embrace far more than the term atheism could portray. But even though I have toyed with adopting that label I simply cannot bring myself to tell someone I am a Bright. It feels inherently foolish and I don’t believe it is necessary. I fully endorse Sam’s perspective that we do not need to use any label. The issues are about reasoned thought versus irrationalism, and that encompasses a basic approach to all of life and not just mysticism.
The article is timely since it helps me coalesce in my mind a conclusion that I had been swiftly approaching. I also admit that I have been very hesitant throughout my life and here about adopting the label of atheist since I have always been aware of its inconsistent perceptions by theists. So from here on out I won’t respond to the label but will pursue with a renewed focus the basis of reasoned thought that has always been my real perspective.
Photizo,
Great piece. He's taken the first steps toward God...i.e. by being honest with himself about 'life' as it is sans a connection with/to God...the angst he describes in the article is nothing more than the onset of labor associated with becoming born again. Let's pray it doesn't end in a miscarriage.Well you are consistently one track minded and closed minded to anything other than a god is the answer to everything.
But unfortunately you have missed his fundamental message – that our consciousness is really quite remarkable and that it is capable of providing us much greater satisfaction than we give it credit. There was nothing mystical implied here, quite the reverse.
The fact that everyone can identify with this angst he describes--if they will but honestly look at theimselves and their so called 'life'-- shows just how pervasive the denial is on the part of humanity concerning their latent desire for God...and how they tend to to meet this desire unsuccessfully through use of physical means: food, sex, travel, etc.No, the god concept is the paramount fantasy of the ignorant and is a major distraction from achieving what Sam suggests.
That 'itch' can only be scratched...that connection to God can only be made... through a combination of the physical and spiritual: The God-Man Jesus Christ.Pity that prisons throughout the world reflect the same proportion of believers to unbelievers as it does in the outside world. It would appear that being religious doesn’t satisfy that itch anymore than being an unbeliever. But it is worse; many Christians suffer great pangs of guilt because they imagine how sinful they are. Unbelievers have no such hang-ups. Certainly when I gave up Christianity it was like a major weight being lifted from me.
vBulletin® v3.6.8, Copyright ©2000-2008, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.