Infinity? I was wondering about the being of the universe. I was wondering that as the most believed theory is that a big explosion created the universe we live in now. Now since that the universe began from a point and expanded out from that point. This seams to say that as it expands from a point it has a size at any point in time, which means it has a distance from its starting point. Now to say that the universe has a size, wherever it is expanding of shrinking seams to me that there is a size on the limit of all things in that universe. Thus infinity can’t exist. Would this then change some physical laws on some equations involving infinity? What would this mean if this happens? Just a thought
Infinitey does exist though, afterall you take a number and keep adding one to it, for as long as it equals more than one, it's infinite. The universe itself is infinite, People are only just starting to realise (while some free thinkers had already made such steps) that the universe doesn't necessarily exist on a singular plane like we once saw before. Due to this understanding it's percieved that there are infinite possibilities, shaping infinite universes, some of which similar to our own, while others far different in shape, size and direction. So what ever measurements people perceive now, in the future will just be another historical tale of how it once was.
oggie, I agree with your conclusion that the universe cannot be infinite. I believe that the universe had a certain amount of matter in the beginning and this amount stays constant regardless of the age of the universe(I include energy as a form of matter). As the universe is expanding, I believe that a portion of this initial matter is being converted to space. In other words, if space was to exist, it must contain a small amount of matter. That would mean that the universe would continue to expand until:a)The gravitational fields stop the expansion, and then it begins to contract or b) All the matter in the universe is converted to space. If this were to happen, the gravitational field of empty space would cause the universe to begin to contract. Either way, there is no way to avoid the Big Crunch. Tom
The unavoidable question if the universe got a fixed size 1: What lies behind it? More space, materia or energy? Goto 1
Nothing lies beyond the universe, not even space. You prove my point that if there is a “beyond” space then the space would take up space and therefore have size. If there is a size on the biggest thing “the universe” then there is a limit of everything, including infinity. I believe that infinity is not a number that carry’s on forever but a theoretical “end of the universe”. Even if other universe’s do exists and there’s no evidence that they can’t exist. They would also follow a path as stated above, if maybe a little different from our own. I do find it hard to believe in my own theory that the universe has a size, as what would be after that size? But it seams to me to be the only way of describing infinity in a “big bang” image. afterall you take a number and keep adding one to it, for as long as it equals more than one, it's infinite. What if you counted all the matter in the universe (not such a daft idea as it may seam). What happens when u finally get that number? If you counted in atoms for say, what would happen at the last atom? Would you now have reached infinity? But if u have reached infinity then infinity would not exist. Thus my point on no infinity is reached, has it not?
Assuming nothing can go faster than light, the extent of the universe is the light from the big bang. Beyond this, there is no matter, no energy, nothing. Nothing can be outside, so there is no outside.
Why should infinity have anything to do with the size of the universe, they are unrelated ,you can always have a number which is one bigger cant you. I mean the speed of light is the fastest thing in the universe but doesn't mean that we cant imagine anything going faster then that, we do it all the time we talk about warp speed in star trek or star wars where the ship travels faster then light speed, even if we somehow found out the universe had a specific size and it could no longer be called infinitly large, infinity would still exist, you just add one more to the current size of the universe and then one more to that and again if you dont make an attempt to stop your going to be counting forever or to infinity. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
It doesnt matter infinity still exists. It is a term, a meaning to go on forever. There maybe a size to the whole of the universe and there is definitly not going to be anything bigger but why should forever or never ending no longer exist because of this ? Why cant there be a number bigger then this, something physical may not be bigger but we can surely imagine a number twice three times or even 100 times as big as the size of the universe. Anyway thats all for me on this thread anyway Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
ok last answer on this thread so u agrea that infinity can't exsits in physcaly word, due to the limint on the unversie. but you imagine you could always add 1 to a number, but i don't think that our minds are capable of imaging a limit-less number. if u really think about it, can u?:bugeye:
Prosoothus, how do you explane the casimir effect, and where did all the stuff that went 'bang' come from? Space, by definition, is made of nothing. And it would violate all sorts of conservation laws to convert any enregy/matter into a pure vacuum. We know that everything has to exist for a reason, do you all agree? So, before the big bang, there was no reason for anything to exist so there was nothing, and that means space must be infinite. Now, what makes you think the thing that made the big bang would only do so once in an infinite universe? Wouldn't it most likely create infinite universes, unless masterfully designed by an intelligent species to create one and only one universe? If so, where did that being come from? Space has no gravity. And the big crunch was ruled out many years ago after astronomers discovered their foolish mistake: THEY ASSUMED IT WOULD HAPPEN, BUT IN REALITY THE UNIVERSE IS EXPANDING AT AN ACELLERATED RATE. <I>Reid, Nothing lies beyond the universe, not even space. Tom</I> Thanks for the insite, and even though I would tend to agree (as far as there not being any hidden dimentions or anythiyng beyond space), these are merely beliefs, and you would be just as foolish to assume these are true as you would be to assume the universe will collapse. My belief on infinity: If it is not defined as 1 more than the largest number in the world (infinity), it is a number that cannot be imagined, it is impossible. If you took all thematter in the universe and converted it into penciles and paper (metaphorical) and write down 999999..., when you run out you have reached the number just below infinity. If you try to think of this number, your brain can only think of parts of it at a time. Of course, this is not a difinitive answer, since you could then compress the data to fit more, like 10<SUP>100</SUP> is a number so long I can't even type it here. That is infinity. If there is no matter to hold the value, then you cannot think of a number larger than this is what I'm saying (no number exists that is 100x the number of particals in the universe). But, since I believe there are infinite universes (not antimatter or parrallell universes), then infinity really has nolimit. No, infinitely long numbers are not even virtually/mentally possible. This is because as I have already stated, in your brain, each neuron can hold small values, however each neuron is made up of trillions of atoms. Keep adding one and you will run out of media (neurons).
huh??, It didn't come from anywhere. It was always there, and always will be. Matter can't be destroyed or created it can only be converted to energy or other types of matter. As I mentioned before, I think that empty space has to contain a small amount of matter for it to exist. I believe that space is the least dense form of matter. As the density of space increases, it becomes a field. As the density of fields increase, they become solid matter. The meaning "one" lies in the word "universe". If their were multiple universe, the sum of all of them would still be one universe. I don't believe that there can be infinite universes because that would require infinite mass and energy. If mass and energy were infinite, the laws of conservation of mass and energy would not apply. Whether the expansion of the universe is accelerating or decellerating, the universe will one day run out of matter, and stop expanding. When this happens, the gravitational fields of all the matter and space in the universe will cause it to contract. Tom
there are new theroys that say that the universe getts bigger and crunches, again and again, causeing a big bag every X time. this is known as a circle'ula unversie. (sorry for the spelling, but i am tryed). i belive that infinity can not exisit. does evey1 one else agree?
First of all, Prosoothus, assuming that matter has always been there is taking the easy way out. Second, you obviously are not up to date on the casimir effect. May I refer you <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Casimir">here</a>, because I don't know of any good sites off hand to explane it. It has to do with the heisenberg uncertanty principle, the Higgs field and Hawking radiation. If the definition includes "Virtual photons", these may be interpreted as partical/antipartical pairs. <I>As I mentioned before, I think that empty space has to contain a small amount of matter for it to exist. I believe that space is the least dense form of matter. As the density of space increases, it becomes a field. As the density of fields increase, they become solid matter. </I> Here, you contradict yourself. "Empty" space must be filled with something to exist. Well, since saying space is nothing will get me nowhere with you, I guess you could say it's teeming with virtual photons, is that ok with your theory of space? In addition, ordinary space (not so empty space) is chock full of ordinary matter, energy, and neutrinoes, and MAYBE higgs bosons, or gravitrons if they are prooven to exist. What is so hard for you to understand that nothing (space) is made of nothing? What would happen if there was nothing in it? Would empty space dissapear and create new matter to fill the void? A bit vague at the end. <I>The meaning "one" lies in the word "universe". If their were multiple universe, the sum of all of them would still be one universe. I don't believe that there can be infinite universes because that would require infinite mass and energy. If mass and energy were infinite, the laws of conservation of mass and energy would not apply. </I> Ok, as long as you admit that the universe may not have an end. This wouldn't necessarilly violate any conservations laws, but let's not forget, there are no dogmas in science. The 'Law' of gravity was overthrown, or rather corrected, after 300 years of being thought an unbreakable law of nature by Albert Einstein. What's to say the same is not true for conservation laws? The casimir effect, not the casimir theory, blatantly violates probably the most fundamental of all conservation laws, conservation of matter/energy. The B meson is a subatomic partical that violates another conservation 'law', charge-parity. This basically means that for every bit of matter you create, you must also create an equal amount of antimatter (Even when they decay, the same amount of electric charge and parity must exist in the decay products. But if it is violated, you don't have to create equal amounts and the antimatter decays faster than the matter), and CP-violation is the only known way that the universe can exist as it does (well, there are a few, far fetched ideas that offer other explanation, but none are as simple or have been prooven like CP-violation has). NASA is spending (or should I say wasting?) millions of dollars in their <a href="http://www.lerc.nasa.gov/WWW/bpp/">BPP project</a> which hopes to violate Newton's conservation law of inertia. See, science is something we make up as we go along. If we don't like something, we find a way to defeat it. <I>Whether the expansion of the universe is accelerating or decellerating, the universe will one day run out of matter, and stop expanding. When this happens, the gravitational fields of all the matter and space in the universe will cause it to contract. </I> Not only does this completely ignor the casimir effect, one of the most important forces in nature, but it also assumes that space is made of matter. Now, when you devise and run an experiment to convert matter to space, you tell me so that I might try it myself. <I>i belive that infinity can not exisit. does evey1 one else agree?</I> Yes. It only exists as an abstract concept.
huh, First of all, I'd like to clear up the fact that I believe that the universe is infinite in age, but it is not infinite in size. I read a few articles about the Casimir Effect and found that it more likely confirms that vacuum is made of something than that it isn't composed of anything. You may be confused between the Casimir Effect and some theoretical explanations of the Casimir Effect(virtual photons, etc). I believe that the Casimir Effect is the result of some sort of electromagnetic self-inductance(since the force is measured between two METAL plates). There are two reasons why I believe that space is actually composed of matter: 1. A photon takes 1000 times longer to travel 1 kilometer in a vacuum than it takes it to travel 1 meter in the same vacuum. If we were to assume that space wasn't made of anything, then the photon would travel the two distances in the same amount of time, since in both cases it would pass through nothing. In other words, 1 meter of vacuum would be equivalent to 1 kilometer of vacuum because in both cases, there would be nothing in that space. 2. Attractive forces, such as electromagnetic and gravitational, can be easily explained using the concept of collapsing, or consolidating, space. Example: the reason two oppositely charged objects attract each other is because space is disappearing between the two objects. Tom
in a sense, you see space as some kind of aether (remember, they *did* measure some kind of drag in those exp., but not really what they were expecting Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! what a joke)
We measure time on a scale of real numbers. But we also know about imaginary numbers. If you measure time on a scale of imaginary numbers, i,2i,3i...etc, you get imaginary time. Stephen Hawking has shown that if you do this the universe becomes finite, but bounderyless. Seems contradictory? well imagine it like the 2D surface of a ball, it has no boundaries in 2D, but we can measure its size. We only call imaginary numbers imaginary because we found real numbers first, who's to say that imaginary numbers aren't the real ones and that the universe isn't finite. This throws it open a bit I think.
i dont think infinitey is real if the universe has a size and is the biggest thing even when u could keep addin numbers eventully all the numbers written or what ever would fill the universe to me that says there is no infinity
