Ashkenazic and Sephardic Jews

[Islamsmylife]

I got into a debate with one of my friends the other day that lead us to stop speaking to each other. I was born Muslim and practice still today, he was born and raised Jewish but converted to Islam a few years ago against his Jewish families wishes. I informed him of the little know history of Ashkenazic Jews. Ashkenazic Jews descend from a group of Turkic-Russian's called the Khazars. During the crusades the Khazars converted to Judaism as political tactic to maintain a neutral position in the crusades and avoid forced conversion or allegiances from either the Christian or Muslim forces. Sephardic Jews are considered pure blooded Jews, for they descend from Israel and his sons (the 12 tribes). Therefore the majority of the present day Jews are in-fact converts and not pure-blooded. This is an embarrassing fact for many Ashkenazic Jews and even though my friend is now Muslim he was offended by that information and that lead to us not speaking to each other.

[Zephyr]

Tell your friend he is being silly. Judaism is a religion, not a blood type. The Devil Inside is a sciforums poster who converted to Judaism.

This history is not 'little known'; it pops up on every so often on all political forums. It's also not entirely accurate - there was a Jewish kingdom of Khazaria, although it's uncertain whether the entire population or just the rulers had converted. But modern Ashkenazi Jews have testable DNA links with Palestinians, Lebanese and other people of the Levant, so they can't all be descended from a Turkic tribe, although some intermarriage is plausible. Nor is there anything wrong with Turkic tribes. But if they converted to Judaism out of convenience, I would guess they would've converted to Islam or Christianity when their kingdom collapsed and was absorbed by neighbouring Muslim and Christian powers.

http://www.khazaria.com/

[mathman]

The original Ashkenazi were Jews who lived in western Europe, particularly France and the German Rhineland. Yiddish (their language) was originally a German dialect using the Hebrew alphabet. Similarly, the Sephardic Jews were originally from Iberia and used Ladino, a Spanish dialect using the Hebrew alphabet. The main reason for the separation was the fact during the middle ages Iberia was largely under Moslem control while France and Germany were Christian.

[Fraggle Rocker]

Tell your friend he is being silly. Judaism is a religion, not a blood type.That isn't exactly the way all Jews see it. It's not an evangelical religion like its two aggressive offshoots, so in many communities conversion is not regarded as an important issue, whereas blood is. The way many Jews see Jewry is often described as a "tribe." It's possible to leave, but it's discouraged and lamented. It's possible to join by marriage, but some communities take seriously the tradition of deciding whether the new person will make a good addition to the tribe. And it's possible to join just by wanting to be a Jew and trying hard to fit in, but the test of "will this person make a good addition" will usually be applied much more assiduously than if it were a joining by marriage.

"Judaism" is a religion, but "Jewishness" is something else.

The Khazarian thing is fascinating. I hope they eventually dig up more information on it. So are the DNA results showing a tight kinship between Jews and Palestinians. It could turn out that the Hebrews were simply the Canaanites who chose to convert to Abrahamism, whereas the Palestinians were simply those that did not, and the two communities separated like Catholics and Protestants.

[Zephyr]

"Judaism" is a religion, but "Jewishness" is something else.
I suppose it's similar to "Greekness" vs "Greek Orthodox Christianity". I'm sure you've seen My Big Fat Greek Wedding?

But I think the religion aspect changes more slowly than the cultural one. I would guess that Ashkenazi Jews in America are culturally very different to Jews in the European townships of centuries past. But the (Orthodox) religion is probably much the same.

It could turn out that the Hebrews were simply the Canaanites who chose to convert to Abrahamism, whereas the Palestinians were simply those that did not, and the two communities separated like Catholics and Protestants.
I remember reading somewhere that Palestinians may be descended partly from Jews who remained in the area and intermarried and converted as successive empires controlled the land.

People of the Levant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant) are supposedly more closely related to one another than to nomads like the Syrian and Israeli Bedouins who are from Arabia. Most of the people considered Arabs are now Arabs culturally, but didn't originally come from Arabia.

[GeoffP]

I got into a debate with one of my friends the other day that lead us to stop speaking to each other. I was born Muslim and practice still today, he was born and raised Jewish but converted to Islam a few years ago against his Jewish families wishes. I informed him of the little know history of Ashkenazic Jews. Ashkenazic Jews descend from a group of Turkic-Russian's called the Khazars. During the crusades the Khazars converted to Judaism as political tactic to maintain a neutral position in the crusades and avoid forced conversion or allegiances from either the Christian or Muslim forces. Sephardic Jews are considered pure blooded Jews, for they descend from Israel and his sons (the 12 tribes). Therefore the majority of the present day Jews are in-fact converts and not pure-blooded. This is an embarrassing fact for many Ashkenazic Jews and even though my friend is now Muslim he was offended by that information and that lead to us not speaking to each other.

Oh, Y-hw-h, not this one again.

Khazarene Jews are associated primarily with the tribe of Levi, which was the priestly caste, and a tiny, tiny proportion of all Judaism (probably less than 5%). The vast majority of Jews are from the tribe of Judah (hence the word "Jew") and Benjamin. Genetic analysis confirms high relatedness between Ashkenasi and Sephardi Jews, and of both to Palestinians. Ergo, there has been little genetic differentiation, which certainly meets the broad expectations of minor migration into the Ashkenasi group. So: the majority of Ashkenasi Jews are, indeed, as "pure blooded" as statistical population genetics can discern.

[iceaura]

During the crusades the Khazars converted to Judaism as political tactic to maintain a neutral position in the crusades and avoid forced conversion or allegiances from either the Christian or Muslim forces. That, I think, would take some demonstration or evidence. It doesn't sound right, offhand - and I can't help but notice that the people who assert it are often the same people who ascribe intrinsic character flaws to the "Jewish race".

[Zephyr]

Probably because they assume that only a cunning, sly, tricksy people would convert for political reasons. Which is rubbish. Most of the Roman Empire became Christian because the emperor converted, and suddenly not being Christian meant a whole lot of trouble. And what did Zeus ever do for me, anyway?

I would guess the same happened with many countries the Arabs conquered.

Of course, that doesn't mean that their descendants didn't believe sincerely. Until conquered by the next religion anyway.

[Rickjames]

I believe there was a study done where they traced paternal male lineages in ashkenazi jews from europe and found substantial middle eastern (aka jewish) ancestry.

[GeoffP]

Yep. 'Xactly. I should probably look that one up.

[Lord Hillyer]

One of the world's most pressing concerns, surely.

[GeoffP]

To some people; indeed. But others like MTV.

[Fraggle Rocker]

Yeah. Here in America we don't put much stock in ancestry. We're all of mixed blood, like the entire hemisphere. Our founding principle is that you are who you want to be, although we don't promise to make that easy. It's currently fashionable in America to make a big stink over immigration, but in two generations their children will be just as American--and just as intermarried--as we are.

My distant ancestors were Catholic, Protestant and Jewish. My grandparents said screw this crap so I'm a third-generation atheist.