unification of abrahamic religions?

[The Devil Inside]

i have been sitting and wondering this morning on the idea that perhaps the three major abrahamic faiths might be one day congealed into one religion.

what doctrines would need change from each faith (islam, christianity, and judaism) in order to accomplish this on a widespread basis (at least 70 percent of practitioners agreeing with the "unified" religion)?

ive been doing some writing on the subject, and would appreciate some input from muslims and christians (im jewish).

[S.A.M.]

Thats an intriguing notion.

Being a Muslim, I would have to say, to me the easiest way would be if all the Prophets were recognised as such.

So the greatest change would be in Christianity, since Judaism and Islam are already pretty similar, in fact recognising the Prophet would make the Jews essentially Muslim (since thats the only major difference in faith).

[The Devil Inside]

Thats an intriguing notion.

Being a Muslim, I would have to say, to me the easiest way would be if all the Prophets were recognised as such.

So the greatest change would be in Christianity, since Judaism and Islam are already pretty similar, in fact recognising the Prophet would make the Jews essentially Muslim (since thats the only major difference in faith).

indeed.
during the time of ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of jews refused to move from babylon to israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- haggai, zechariah and malachi

....that certainly creates a bump in the road. well, is the foundation of islam based on the status of mohammed? just wondering.

[ashura]

indeed.
during the time of ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of jews refused to move from babylon to israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- haggai, zechariah and malachi

....that certainly creates a bump in the road. well, is the foundation of islam based on the status of mohammed? just wondering.

Yup, the foundation is "Allah is the one true god and Mohammed is his last prophet".

[The Devil Inside]

Yup, the foundation is "Allah is the one true god and Mohammed is his last prophet".

you are muslim?

[ashura]

you are muslim?

Was.

[The Devil Inside]

Was.

ah, ok.
well, the first thing i think would help the discussion is to simplify the basic tenets of each of the three religions, and find the broadest similarities to expound upon.

anyone want to go first?

[S.A.M.]

Yup, the foundation is "Allah is the one true god and Mohammed is his last prophet".

The exact shahadah is "There is no god but God, and Mohammed is his Prophet"

[S.A.M.]

ah, ok.
well, the first thing i think would help the discussion is to simplify the basic tenets of each of the three religions, and find the broadest similarities to expound upon.

anyone want to go first?

The basic premise of Islam is that there is only God, he has no partner (La sharika ).

[ashura]

The basic premise of Islam is that there is only God, he has no partner (La sharika ).

I'm 99% sure that Mohammed being the last prophet is also an essential part of it.

[nietzschefan]

Please....no more religions.

[one_raven]

Good thread - it should be in Comparitive Religion.

[S.A.M.]

I'm 99% sure that Mohammed being the last prophet is also an essential part of it.

That is a belief that speaks to revelations; it does not invalidate messengers. Besides, it is not an article of faith; the shahadah says nothing about last rasool, merely Mohammed ur Rasoolullah.

[The Devil Inside]

Good thread - it should be in Comparitive Religion.

i thought it also had a home here, hopefully.
comparative religion is a seperate beast, in my eyes. this is about dogma....mostly.

sam, do you foresee the importance of muhammed's "prophet status" being marginalized in the reasonably near future (we are talking a thousand years or so...something akin to the protestant revolution that christianity experienced)...i think that if muhammed were portrayed as "an enlightened teacher", much like jesus, there would be nothing seperating islam and judaism....that is the central issue, aside from cultural and political divisions (admittedly problematic, but not a deal breaking quandry).

now, the real quagmire: how do we integrate christians into the new entity of judaislam? :D

edit: i suppose it could also be called islamojudaism?

[S.A.M.]

i thought it also had a home here, hopefully.
comparative religion is a seperate beast, in my eyes. this is about dogma....mostly.

sam, do you foresee the importance of muhammed's "prophet status" being marginalized in the reasonably near future (we are talking a thousand years or so...something akin to the protestant revolution that christianity experienced)...i think that if muhammed were portrayed as "an enlightened teacher", much like jesus, there would be nothing seperating islam and judaism....that is the central issue, aside from cultural and political divisions.

now, the real quagmire: how do we integrate christians into the new entity of judaislam? :D

edit: i suppose it could also be called islamojudaism?

I think Muhammed is given far too much importance in Islam; the message is more important than the messenger, sah?

So yes, if Muhammed is portrayed as a teacher, that would not take away from the faith in the least. As it is there is a lot of unnecessary emphasis on the Hadiths, leading to caricaturisation of the faith, with medieval legal opinions practised in modern society.

[The Devil Inside]

I think Muhammed is given far too much importance in Islam; the message is more important than the messenger, sah?

So yes, if Muhammed is portrayed as a teacher, that would not take away from the faith in the least. As it is there is a lot of unnecessary emphasis on the Hadiths, leading to caricaturisation of the faith, with medieval legal opinions practised in modern society.

i think that the (very recent, and certainly only a political tool to rally israelis....lets not get into that!) idea of a jewish only zion would have to be the breaking point for jews, in respect to islam.

obviously, its the whole "jesus is the messiah" thing with the christians. :)

[S.A.M.]

i think that the (VERY RECENT) idea of a jewish only zion would have to be the breaking point for jews, in respect to islam.

obviously, its the whole "jesus is the messiah" thing with the christians. :)

Do ALL Christians believe in the trinity? What about gnostics?

[one_raven]

Do ALL Christians believe in the trinity? What about gnostics?

No, not all.

[S.A.M.]

No, not all.

Oh goody, whats your input here?:)

[The Devil Inside]

Do ALL Christians believe in the trinity? What about gnostics?

the main emphasis in the last hundred years or so placed on the trinity has been by american protestant denominations. it has become an almost brand new religion, in the sense that it has revolutionized nearly every idea on prosetylizing, conversion, and the meaning of the religion.

[The Devil Inside]

oh GOODY! skinwalker cant handle a serious conversation taking place in his forum, so he moves it to an inappropriate one!

good show, assbutt.

[S.A.M.]

I think this is a more appropriate forum, since we are comparing religious edicts. :)

[The Devil Inside]

I think this is a more appropriate forum, since we are comparing religious edicts. :)

i seriously disagree. this conversation isnt about comparison, its about synthesis.

[Avatar]

Hi, Skinwalker informed me about moving this thread.
I think this is a decend discussion, please stay on topic.

i seriously disagree. this conversation isnt about comparison, its about synthesis.

For which you need to compare the abrahamic religions in order to understand what sticks together and what not.

[The Devil Inside]

Hi, Skinwalker informed me about moving this thread.
I think this is a decend discussion, please stay on topic.



For which you need to compare the abrahamic religions in order to understand what sticks together and what not.

well, certainly a comparison has to take place, but the root of the issue is not the comparison.

[Avatar]

I absolutely agree, so when you all have done the comparison, make another thread in Religion and start from there.
Since Skinwalker moved this thread here, and there is no more appropriate subforum, you are invited to discuss this topic here, till you have finished with the comparison. There is no point in moving this thread back since the moderator of the Religion forum has already made his decision.

[one_raven]

Oh goody, whats your input here?:)

I answered the question you asked.

[S.A.M.]

I answered the question you asked.

I meant to the OP; what do Christians, who do not believe in the trinity, believe in?

What are the basic articles of their faith?

Also, who are these Christians?:)

[one_raven]

Most Christians are Trinitarians, but not all.
The Mormons are not trinitarian - they believe that teh Godhead, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are three distinct entities.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe similarly - that there are three distinct entities, and the Trinity is apologist dogma invented by the Catholic Church.

The Jehova's and the Mormons reject all catholic Dogma whole heartedly. In fact, the Mormons equate the Catholic Chrurch withe the "Whore of Babylon" mentioned in the Bible.

The Unitarians and the Unification Church got their names from trying to unify the triune Godhead, but specifically how they do that is unclear to me.

[S.A.M.]

So the Jehovahs, Mormons and Unitarians how are they different in their beliefs about Christ?

What do they consider him?

Also, who are the gnostics?

[one_raven]

So the Jehovahs, Mormons and Unitarians how are they different in their beliefs about Christ?

What do they consider him?
The Jehova's beliefs about Jesus are not really different than mainstream Christianity, other than the fact that they do not believe him to be the physical manifestation of God on Earth - rather simply God's son.
They also believe that after the raputure he will rule over a physical paradise on Earth.

The Mormons are, perhaps, the most divergent from mainstream Christianity regarding their beliefs about Jesus.
They do see him as the prophesied savior, but he was just a man - as everyone else is.
He is praised because he achieved what any man can, but most do not.
Think of the Eastern version of enlightenment.

They also believe he came back after the resurrection and travelled to different parts of the world to spread his gospel.
Thie "Book of Mormon" is an account of his visit to North America and the Native Americans.

Also, who are the gnostics?
The Gnostics are a completely different animal altogther.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnostics

[S.A.M.]

The Mormons sound like their beliefs are very close to what Muslims believe about Christ.

[one_raven]

The Mormons sound like their beliefs are very close to what Muslims believe about Christ.

I can definitely see why you would say that.

[mybreathyourlung]

I understand this is a purely hypothetical topic, as it would be impossible to unite these three religions into one seeing that problematic dogma separates them, but I can understand it's significance on a smaller scale. I was brought up Pentecostal, but my personal views of faith side more with Judaism and from what I know about Islam (which isn't much) I agree more or less with. So in a sense, it's easy for someone to embrace all three, but in a worldwide view, impossible.

[The Devil Inside]

I understand this is a purely hypothetical topic, as it would be impossible to unite these three religions into one seeing that problematic dogma separates them, but I can understand it's significance on a smaller scale. I was brought up Pentecostal, but my personal views of faith side more with Judaism and from what I know about Islam (which isn't much) I agree more or less with. So in a sense, it's easy for someone to embrace all three, but in a worldwide view, impossible.

well, what are the problematic dogmas to you, and what is a way in which they can be reconciled?

[mybreathyourlung]

I think the most major problem especially coming from a Christian background is the issue between Jews and Christians concerning Jesus being the Messiah. The Christian faith certainly couldn't change on this issue, seeing that it's centered on Jesus being the son of God. The Jewish faith on the other hand isn't dictated around Jesus NOT being the Messiah, so that is part of their religion that COULD change, or, added upon, rather. But that all depends on how strong the case is that Jesus was in fact the son of God.

As for Islam, I certainly need a stronger understanding of that faith. I believe I'm correct in saying that Jesus was viewed as a teacher and messenger of Allah, but not a prophet. And I'm not sure how the whole of Christianity or Judiasm views Mohammed as a true prophet of God either.

It's understood that all three religions agree that there is but one God, so in theory, it must be the same central character with more or less the same attribues and characteristics, but it's the next figure down in the heirarchy that is disagreed upon, and from there is where it all branches out.

[The Devil Inside]

I think the most major problem especially coming from a Christian background is the issue between Jews and Christians concerning Jesus being the Messiah. The Christian faith certainly couldn't change on this issue, seeing that it's centered on Jesus being the son of God. The Jewish faith on the other hand isn't dictated around Jesus NOT being the Messiah, so that is part of their religion that COULD change, or, added upon, rather. But that all depends on how strong the case is that Jesus was in fact the son of God.


well, the jewish perspective on how modern christians view jesus is simple: idolatry.

i dont personally see jesus being the son of god or even the messiah as the foundation of christianity, though...i see the teachings of a guy named jesus as the foundation....an attempt to reform the judaism of his day. *shrug* just my opinion, though.

[one_raven]

As for Islam, I certainly need a stronger understanding of that faith. I believe I'm correct in saying that Jesus was viewed as a teacher and messenger of Allah, but not a prophet. And I'm not sure how the whole of Christianity or Judiasm views Mohammed as a true prophet of God either.

Correct me if I am wrong, sam, but I think he IS seen as a Prophet, just not the LAST prophet.
Islam seems Muhammed as the LAST and final Prophet - which completely blows Mormons out of the water, because the Mormons ALWAYS have a Prophet.
Gordon B Hinckley is the current Mormon Prophet, as far as I am aware.

[mybreathyourlung]

well, the jewish perspective on how modern christians view jesus is simple: idolatry.

i dont personally see jesus being the son of god or even the messiah as the foundation of christianity, though...i see the teachings of a guy named jesus as the foundation....an attempt to reform the judaism of his day. *shrug* just my opinion, though.

No, that is true, at the original intention of what I think Christianity was meant to be, but I was pulling from a more modern example of what Christians define as the foundation of their religion. I definitely think that the intentions of Jesus are not what has evolved to today.

[The Devil Inside]

No, that is true, at the original intention of what I think Christianity was meant to be, but I was pulling from a more modern example of what Christians define as the foundation of their religion. I definitely think that the intentions of Jesus are not what has evolved to today.

the point i was trying (badly, i might add) to make is that perhaps a unification could only happen if christianity returned to its roots?

[John99]

the point i was trying (badly, i might add) to make is that perhaps a unification could only happen if christianity returned to its roots?

Its roots are in belief that JC is IT. In Islam Christ is a prophet, in Judaism Christ was a pain in the ass.- thats a joke...relax.

and if this isnt Comparative Religion thread then what is?

[John99]

Thats an intriguing notion.

Being a Muslim, I would have to say, to me the easiest way would be if all the Prophets were recognised as such.

So the greatest change would be in Christianity, since Judaism and Islam are already pretty similar, in fact recognising the Prophet would make the Jews essentially Muslim (since thats the only major difference in faith).


gee never heard that before.

[one_raven]

if this isnt Comparative Religion thread then what is?

This is the very essence of Comparative Religion.

[Light Travelling]

well, the jewish perspective on how modern christians view jesus is simple: idolatry.
.

Well thats one thing all three have in common.... A disdain for idolatry.




The difference being what constitutes an idol.

[Light Travelling]

The unifying things though, I think would be;


Faith
Faith in the existence of a God
A God that bestows eternal life in a heaven
A God that rewards good and punishes evil.
A God that informs humanity of what is good and evil via holy books. i.e. revealed scripture.
Belief that god sends Prophets into the world (just cant agree on which ones)
Belief in soul
Belief in the existence of a spiritual realm i.e. an unseen world of angels, jinn, demons, god.
Belief that the life to come is more important than the current life (with the exception of Jehovahs witnesses…. I think).
Belief that there should be one holy day of the week dedicated to God (just cant agree on which one).
Belief that unbelievers in the faith will receive some form of punishment.



That should be a start.....

[Fraggle Rocker]

I think the most major problem especially coming from a Christian background is the issue between Jews and Christians concerning Jesus being the Messiah. The Christian faith certainly couldn't change on this issue, seeing that it's centered on Jesus being the son of God. The Jewish faith on the other hand isn't dictated around Jesus NOT being the Messiah, so that is part of their religion that COULD change, or, added upon, rather. But that all depends on how strong the case is that Jesus was in fact the son of God.Isn't the belief that the Messiah is coming one of the key elements of Judaism? Ani maamin beviat hamashiakh. A patient people, they are waiting, generation after generation after generation, for the glorious day when the messiah comes. When that happens they will explode into rejoicing and their holy books will be rewritten, amended, replaced, or maybe just vaporized in a magical beam of light as they go dancing off into the Promised Land with klezmer music all around and Gentiles weeping in shame for the way they treated them. The Entire World Will Change.

You think somebody can say to the Jews, "Sorry guys, the messiah was already here and you missed him. I'm so sorry about that big party you were planning. Oh by the way, I guess the world didn't really change that much after his arrival and departure, apparently you were wrong about that whole messiah thing. You're still the underdogs and quite a lot of humanity still hates you."

No, I don't think so!I have been sitting and wondering this morning on the idea that perhaps the three major abrahamic faiths might be one day congealed into one religion.That seems to be at odds with their very nature. Christianity and Islam, and to a lesser extent Judaism, keep splintering into sects that squabble among themselves. I can't imagine what force it would take to reverse that and cause them to settle their differences. Mutual hatred is just part of the deal and if they can't find one of the other religions to hate, they just break up and start hating each other.

Within Christendom, first Catholics and Orthodox, then Protestants, then the Methodists vs. the Baptists, and now at least in my country the staid old Episcopalians are splitting off from their parent Anglicans with great animosity over whether to adopt 21st century attitudes about homosexuality.

Within Islam one hardly has to point out the hatred between Sunnis and Shiites, apparently over some incredible little nuance that happened more than a thousand years ago.

Orthodox Jews in Israel throw rocks at ambulances driven on the Sabbath by Unorthodox Jews.

The whole problem with Abrahamism is its stifling one-dimensional model of the rich and complex human spirit. Everything has to fall on a linear scale with Good at one end and Evil at the other--a binary system that looks like it was invented by a computer geek. People find a great complexity of competing spirits inside themselves, one day they're The Hunter and the next day The Healer, and the polytheistic religions gave them a model and a vocabulary to talk about it and make sense out of it. Abrahamism tells them to find their place on that little line and hope they're on the Good end of it, and they stay bewildered.

They end up so frustrated that they begin fighting among themselves over the best way to interpret that line because it provides no room to embrace the diversity within themselves, in their community, or in the world.

I suppose that would be all right except the rest of us always get caught in the crossfire.

[mybreathyourlung]

the point i was trying (badly, i might add) to make is that perhaps a unification could only happen if christianity returned to its roots?


Ah, I see. I agree, but I think this unification could only happen if all religions returned to their roots. But, as Fraggle Rocker said above, with all the different thoughts and ideas on different issues of all the denominations, for everyone to agree on just the simplicity of faith is highly unlikely.

It's kind of silly, how for most faiths they're united by one book, yet somehow so many people pick and choose and re-interpret what they want to suit their own needs.

[Light Travelling]

so many people pick and choose and re-interpret what they want to suit their own needs.

Religion is all about interpretation.


And then you have the esoteric arguments - that religious writings are written deliberatley not to be taken at face value and have secret meanings that one has to be initiated into.


The higher paths of (at least eastern) religion always take the view that the highest truths are beyond; words, books, discourse and therefore intepretations.

[John99]

Religion is all about interpretation.


And then you have the esoteric arguments - that religious writings are written deliberatley not to be taken at face value and have secret meanings that one has to be initiated into.


The higher paths of (at least eastern) religion always take the view that the highest truths are beyond; words, books, discourse and therefore intepretations.

I think for the majority of religious people it is more cultural and not about who is right and who is wrong. From my own experience with all the major religions this is the attraction.

[S.A.M.]

I think for the majority of religious people it is more cultural and not about who is right and who is wrong. From my own experience with all the major religions this is the attraction.

What about one culture with many religions?

[mybreathyourlung]

Religion is all about interpretation.


I would certainly have to agree with that as pretty much everything we observe is subject to interpretation. Especially something as individualistic as religion.

[John99]

What about one culture with many religions?

That is what i am exposed to all the time.:shrug:

In your experience is religion more about tradition or steadfast belief.

[S.A.M.]

That is what i am exposed to all the time.:shrug:

In your experience is religion more about tradition or steadfast belief.

Both, tradition is what maintains it in society, but belief is what sustains it if you move.

[John99]

Both, tradition is what maintains it in society, but belief is what sustains it if you move.

The first part is entirely true, but i see that when people do move they move right into what is their cultural norm. Whole neighborhoods in the U.S are built upon this, and it is not a problem as far as i have seen.

For example, i live right next to a large Indian population and they took their culture with them...right down to the details. It is interesting to note how exposure forms your perception. You unknowingly appreciate the natural beauty in the Indian female.

um, do you work at Subway?

[DiamondHearts]

I don't think it is possible that the three religions will join together.

First of all, Judaism is essentially a religion for Jewish people and has appeal mainly for that ethnic group. Though there are sects which allow conversion, it is not very common. The belief in One God and its teachings, however, gives many people a favorable view of the religion.

Christianity is a religion with a wide scope, however the problem I see with the religion is that it is associated with colonialism in many parts of the world. Also, the belief in trinity alienates many people who do not accept it. The appeal of the Christian religion are the teachings of Prophet Jesus (peace be to him).

My belief is that Islam is the religion which has the most potential to unite different people, though many people on this forum would not agree with me. This is evident to me by the fact that wherever Muslim followers exist, Islam has become a part of the region and culture. Only a minority (20%) of Muslims are Arabs. This becomes even lower if we only consider the original Arab tribes of the center of the Peninsula. Muslims accept all the Hebrew prophets such as David, Moses, Jesus, John (Yahya), along with the Prophet Muhammad (peace be to them). Muslims also believe in the fact that all nations of humanity where sent prophets, though we only are informed of the Middle Eastern prophets.

For Muslims, atleast, Islam is the continuation of the Jewish and Christian traditions. This is the reason why it has an immense following among the descendants of the ancient Christians (Egyptians, Levant, Yemen, Turkey) and Jews (Palestine) of the Middle East.

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be to him) is praised in Islam because he is the final prophet and the greatest example to humankind. Also, his message is the one we have most knowledge and detail of.

As related by the Prophet Muhammad (peace be to him), "My similitude in comparison with the other Prophets before me is that of a man who has built a house nicely and beautifully, except for a place of one brick. The people go about it and wonder at its beauty, but say: "Would that this brick be put in its place." So I am that brick, and I am the last of the prophets." (Sahih Bukhari)


Within Islam one hardly has to point out the hatred between Sunnis and Shiites, apparently over some incredible little nuance that happened more than a thousand years ago.


There is a disagreement between Sunni and Shiat, however, this occurred centuries ago and was of political origin. Sunni and Shiat Muslims generally don't define themselves as of a sect, but as Muslims. There are five madhabs (classical schools) of Islamic thought and each differ in minor areas (such as where to place hands while praying). These five schools are defined by their teachers Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal, Imam Shafi'i, Imam Malik, Imam Abu Hanifah, and the Shiat school Imam Jafari. All of the five Imams were acquaintances, and learned from each other.

It is in the interest of those uninformed of Islam to attempt to show that Muslims hate each other, when this is not clearly a case. If anyone is interested and wants to ask more questions, I will be glad to answer.

[Archie]

I don't see much chance for a reunification of the three groups in question until the Messiah returns and takes direct control of the world.

The primary difference between Judaism and Christianity is the identity of the Messiah. Christians identify the Messiah as Jesus Christ and mainstream Judaism rejects that indentification. (I don't recall anything in Islam regarding the Messiah.)

For Judaism and Christianity to merge, both groups would have to agree on the identity - or lack of identification - of the Messiah. I doubt if the Jews (as a group) will ever admit they 'missed' the appearance of the Messiah; I equally doubt if Christians (as a group) will ever admit they were mistaken in their identification of the Messiah. That is, until the Messiah comes; that should pretty well answer the question.

Islam differs from Judaism and Christianity by the negation of the Messiah and the addition of certain aspects of Arabic mythology. I hasten to add this is not intended to offend - although I'm sure it is not popular - this is simply the view from the outside.

Christianity claims to be the final word from God regarding His intentions toward mankind. Christianity claims to be the fulfillment of Judaism. It says in so many words no new word or teachings will come.

For Islam to merge with either Judaism or Christianity, Islam would have to essentially give up Islam. I see that as far less likely than the merge of Judaism and Christianity.

[DiamondHearts]

Islam differs from Judaism and Christianity by the negation of the Messiah and the addition of certain aspects of Arabic mythology. I hasten to add this is not intended to offend - although I'm sure it is not popular - this is simply the view from the outside.

Christianity claims to be the final word from God regarding His intentions toward mankind. Christianity claims to be the fulfillment of Judaism. It says in so many words no new word or teachings will come.

For Islam to merge with either Judaism or Christianity, Islam would have to essentially give up Islam. I see that as far less likely than the merge of Judaism and Christianity.


Muslims believe that Jesus (peace be upon him) is the Messiah.

We believe the Messiah was of virgin birth, and was sent to save the Jews from their disbelief but they rejected him, therefore Allah (swt) made his religion dominant and cursed the Jewish community who rejected him.

It is interesting to note that the regions of the Levant, Yemen, Egypt, and Turkey were Christian until the advent of Islam, where the people of these regions promptly converted to the new faith.

Muslims view Islam as the successor to the Christian and Jewish religions, we belief that all the biblical prophets including Jesus and Moses (peace be to them) taught the same message, Islam.

We also believe in the second coming of Jesus (peace be upon him) and in the descendant of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) al Mahdhi who will be born in Madinah, then establish a pure Muslim state there and will have the name Muhammad ibn Abdullah. We also believe in the Antichrist, who we refer to as al Masih ad-Dajjal, the false messiah who will cause mischief in the Middle East, then the Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) will fight his army and kill him.

Christianity, Judaism, and Islam aren't that different from each other.

[Grantywanty]

Christianity is a religion with a wide scope, however the problem I see with the religion is that it is associated with colonialism...

My belief is that Islam is the religion which has the most potential to unite different people...

I associate Islam with the oppression of women. In Egypt, as one example, MOST, I repeat, MOST women have undergone cliterodectomies. Such is the fear and hatred of women's sexual desire that it must be cut out by the root.

Nowhere have I heard an Islamic prohibition or even criticism of this practice. I have heard much criticism of 'Western' morals relating to women, but this fundamental crime seems to have tacit approval at the very least.

[DiamondHearts]

I associate Islam with the oppression of women. In Egypt, as one example, MOST, I repeat, MOST women have undergone cliterodectomies. Such is the fear and hatred of women's sexual desire that it must be cut out by the root.

Nowhere have I heard an Islamic prohibition or even criticism of this practice. I have heard much criticism of 'Western' morals relating to women, but this fundamental crime seems to have tacit approval at the very least.

Christianity is associated with colonialism in many parts of the world whether it is fair or not, and this is mostly because of Western Imperialism in the 19th and 20th centuries and modern American evangelists who only give aid to Christians and tempt people to embrace their religion to necessity.

Female Genital Mutilation is not an Islamic custom, it is a pre-Islamic African custom which is not only limited to Egypt.

Islam doesn't encourage it, the majority of modern Islamic scholars condemn it.

Please start another thread if you want to discuss this topic further.

[mybreathyourlung]

We also believe in the Antichrist, who we refer to as al Masih ad-Dajjal, the false messiah who will cause mischief in the Middle East, then the Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) will fight his army and kill him.

Do you (or Islam) believe that this impending war will be a physical or spiritual war? In other words, the passage from the Qur'an that speaks of this war, do you translate that literally or metaphorically?

[DiamondHearts]

Do you (or Islam) believe that this impending war will be a physical or spiritual war? In other words, the passage from the Qur'an that speaks of this war, do you translate that literally or metaphorically?

The Quran doesn't refer to this, it is found in the hadith books (saying of the prophet Muhammad(peace be to him)).

The Islamic prophecy of the war in the end times (yawm al qiyamah, literally last day) is a real historical event.

According to the Muslim view, the Mahdi is to be born in a time of strife and oppression in the Middle East. He will overthrow the tyrant Arab kings and establish Islamic law and justice starting from the holy city Madinah, where he will be born, and the Hijaz (sacred region of Arabia). The Prophet said, his name is my name and he is my descendant. Therefore, Muslims assume his name will be Mohammad ibn (son of) Abdullah from the tribe of Quraish.

During the time of the Mahdi's reign, the Anti Christ will emerge from the Jews of the city of Isfahan in Iran, so the Anti Christ is a Persian Jew. He is to start his rule in the Holy Land punishing those who embrace Islam, and slaughtering Muslims there. From the Holy Land (modern Israel/Palestine) he will initiate a war of conquest into the Muslim lands.

At this time when all hope seems lost in the world, Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) will descend from Heaven (we believe he never died on the cross, but was taken up alive to Heaven) and enter from the gates of Damascus. He will then join with the Mahdi and fight the Anti Christ. At the end of the last battle, he will kill the Anti Christ with his own hands.

After this there will be seven years of peace, and then the believers will perish as a cold wind will strike the Middle East. Then the world will be destroyed on the worst people of humanity. the skies will be ripped and the mountains will trun to sand, the Quran describes it vividly.

I want to comment that these events are highly subjective, and no one needs to believe them if they don't want to. I am merely stating the Islamic end times prophecy. I have not included all the details, if anyone interested please ask for more information.

[mybreathyourlung]

That's very interesting how there is alot similar between that version of the end times and the Christians view. I only get the internet at work so I don't have much spare time or else I would read much more about Islam.

So the idea that the Anti-Christ may be a Persian Jew, does that cause some of the underlying problems between Jews and people of the Islamic faith?

[DiamondHearts]

No, however this is one of the main reasons why Muslims are really worried about the war between the Israelis and Palestinians, because the Anti-Christ is supposed to govern that area and the Jews are supposed to destroy the Masjid al Aqsa, the holiest Muslim place in the Holy Land which will initiate the war. The Masjid al Aqsa has already been destroyed and rebuilt two times, first from the destruction of the Babylonians, then the Romans.

They have already begun excavations and demolitions of the areas underneath the Mosque. The Imam of the Mosque is currently trying to make Muslim governments aware of this as the foundations of the Mosque are getting weaker.

It is interesting to note that the start of the recent Palestinian intifada (uprising) started when Ariel Sharon went to the Mosque and banned all Muslims except for the elderly to attend the Mosque. This is a very serious issue, and resolution of this would solve many problems.

[madanthonywayne]

i have been sitting and wondering this morning on the idea that perhaps the three major abrahamic faiths might be one day congealed into one religion.
Don't worry. There's already a guy planning to do just what you're talking about. Unfortunately, he's the antichrist.
The most popular apostasy in Christendom today is the teaching that God has revealed Himself in many different ways to different cultures and that, therefore, all religions worship the same god, but just use different names. From this viewpoint, the Allah of Islam is the same as the Yahweh of Judaism and both are the same as the Krishna of Hinduism. The natural conclusion that is drawn from this apostate idea is that there are many different paths to God, Jesus being only one of them. This has led liberal leaders of groups like The National Council of Churches in the United States and the World Council to condemn missionary activity as "arrogant" and "anti-cultural."1

The Bible teaches that these apostate Christian leaders are eventually going to succeed, at least temporarily. Their triumph will occur when the Antichrist forms his one world religion (Revelation 13:12).

[The Devil Inside]

Don't worry. There's already a guy planning to do just what you're talking about. Unfortunately, he's the antichrist.
The most popular apostasy in Christendom today is the teaching that God has revealed Himself in many different ways to different cultures and that, therefore, all religions worship the same god, but just use different names. From this viewpoint, the Allah of Islam is the same as the Yahweh of Judaism and both are the same as the Krishna of Hinduism. The natural conclusion that is drawn from this apostate idea is that there are many different paths to God, Jesus being only one of them. This has led liberal leaders of groups like The National Council of Churches in the United States and the World Council to condemn missionary activity as "arrogant" and "anti-cultural."1

The Bible teaches that these apostate Christian leaders are eventually going to succeed, at least temporarily. Their triumph will occur when the Antichrist forms his one world religion (Revelation 13:12).

:) i suppose from a christian viewpoint, this is valid.
i have always wondered if the christian "antichrist" was the jewish "messiah".

[Light Travelling]

Their triumph will occur when the Antichrist forms his one world religion (Revelation 13:12).[/I][/INDENT]

I looked this up and revelation 13:12 says;

Revelation 13:12 (New International Version)

"He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed."


Which is slightly different than your quote, so would you mind telling where your quote comes from, or are you making it up?

[Avatar]

and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast
Sounds like a one world religion to me.

[Light Travelling]

Sounds like a one world religion to me.

I think the interesting thing about that line is "the earth and its inhabitants", where its talks of the earth as being capable of worship as if its a separate entity from the inhabitants.

[madanthonywayne]

I looked this up and revelation 13:12 says;

Revelation 13:12 (New International Version)

"He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed."

Which is slightly different than your quote, so would you mind telling where your quote comes from, or are you making it up?
What I posted is the traditional interpretation of the coming to the antichrist. He will be accompanied by a false prophet who will unite all the worlds religions into one.
:) i suppose from a christian viewpoint, this is valid.
i have always wondered if the christian "antichrist" was the jewish "messiah".No, much closer to the Muslim Mahdi. The Mahdi will arrise from a well to restore order in a time of chaos (wars and rumors of wars) and create a one world government based in ancient Babylon (Iraq).

The antichrist will arise from the pit to restore order during a time of chaos (wars and rumors of wars). He will then create a one world government based in Babylon (Iraq).

PS al Qada has announced its goal of a global calliphate based in Iraq.

[DiamondHearts]

No, much closer to the Muslim Mahdi. The Mahdi will arrise from a well to restore order in a time of chaos (wars and rumors of wars) and create a one world government based in ancient Babylon (Iraq).

Who exactly told you this, Pat Robertson?

You seem to have completely ignored reading my post about the Mahdi when you posted this.

Care to explain Christian end times prophecy in the light of what most Muslims actually believe? Please read my previous posts on this thread for more information.


The antichrist will arise from the pit to restore order during a time of chaos (wars and rumors of wars). He will then create a one world government based in Babylon (Iraq).

PS al Qada has announced its goal of a global calliphate based in Iraq.

That's odd considering that in the Muslim view, the Anti Christ is supposed to bring misery and chaos to the Middle East (this has not happened yet).

So is the Anti Christ good or bad for the Middle East if he brings order to the world as you say?

Who is the Anti Christ and is he alive yet, and what will be his religion?

[madanthonywayne]

You seem to have completely ignored reading my post about the Mahdi when you posted this.I'm not saying that the prophesies are identicle, just strikingly similiar.
That's odd considering that in the Muslim view, the Anti Christ is supposed to bring misery and chaos to the Middle East (this has not happened yet).
So is the Anti Christ good or bad for the Middle East if he brings order to the world as you say?
Who is the Anti Christ and is he alive yet, and what will be his religion?
The Anti-Christ will seem good, at first. Everyone will love him. He will restore order. He will bring world peace and a one world government.

Then all hell will, literally, break lose.

[DiamondHearts]

I'm not saying that the prophesies are identicle, just strikingly similiar.


They are not similar.


According to the Muslim view, the Mahdi is to be born in a time of strife and oppression in the Middle East. He will overthrow the tyrant Arab kings and establish Islamic law and justice starting from the holy city Madinah, where he will be born, and the Hijaz (sacred region of Arabia). The Prophet said, his name is my name and he is my descendant. Therefore, Muslims assume his name will be Mohammad ibn (son of) Abdullah from the tribe of Quraish.

[S.A.M.]

The Prophets name was Abu al-Qasim Ibn Abd Allah Ibn Abd al-Muttalib Ibn Hashim; Mohammed is just an appellation (the praised one).

[Michael]

i have been sitting and wondering this morning on the idea that perhaps the three major abrahamic faiths might be one day congealed into one religion.It has been and is called Baha'i'.

[Zephyr]

It has been and is called Baha'i'.

For some reason people don't seem to consider it a major monotheistic faith, even though it has almost as many followers as Judaism.

[madanthonywayne]

The Prophets name was Abu al-Qasim Ibn Abd Allah Ibn Abd al-Muttalib Ibn Hashim; Mohammed is just an appellation (the praised one).
Holy cow. That is one insanely long name. I wonder what his friends called him? Was this his name as a kid, or is some of that titles and whatnot?

[DiamondHearts]

The Prophets name was Abu al-Qasim Ibn Abd Allah Ibn Abd al-Muttalib Ibn Hashim; Mohammed is just an appellation (the praised one).

Yes, you are correct, however his mother Hazrat Amina named him Muhammad (peace be to them both).

Abul Qasim means Father (Abu) of Qasim because his eldest son was Qasim (rahmat allah alay).

Ibn (son of) is referring to his lineage.

The sahabah often called him using a variety of names Nabi, Rasool, Muhammad, Abu Qasim, and many other names.

[Michael]

For some reason people don't seem to consider it a major monotheistic faith, even though it has almost as many followers as Judaism.As far as monotheism goes I think it's the fastest growing faith in AU. Second only to Buddhism in terms of religous profession. Or so I read a couple years ago.

Actually all of the Bahai I have met are nice people and very educated. I met a Baha'i once when two Muslim guys, who thought I was Christian for some reason, wanted to tell me how the Qur'an was just like a perfected Bible (which of course was corrupted over time by men). When all of a sudden this girl sitting next to us started using the same arguments against the Qur'an they were using about the Bible to promote the Baha'i faith. I have to say it was funny watching their faces as she spouted off dates and names. Then they fell back on the old "you really don't know what you are talking about because you read the Qur'an in English" and so she started speaking Arabic.

Haa! Very funny. They just sat there dumbfounded. Here was this girl trying to convert them just as they were trying to convert me! Then I told them all I was Atheist and they should convert to Atheism. Haa even funnier.

In short the Muslims walked away remaining Muslim
The Baha'i walked away Baha'i
and I am of course still Atheist.

And the reasons for that are the reasons why there will never be a unified monotheistic faith.

[Zephyr]

That's brilliant. :D

I guess we will remain one species with many faiths (or lack thereof).

[S.A.M.]

Holy cow. That is one insanely long name. I wonder what his friends called him? Was this his name as a kid, or is some of that titles and whatnot?

Not really the Ibn stands for "son of" and gives the lineage for the previous 3 generations.:p

Friends called him Amin (the trustworthy one) before Prophethood and Mohammed or Ahmed (the praised one) later.

[madanthonywayne]

Not really the Ibn stands for "son of" and gives the lineage for the previous 3 generations.:p

Friends called him Amin (the trustworthy one) before Prophethood and Mohammed or Ahmed (the praised one) later.
So his name was really Abu al-Qasim? Why did no one call him Abu?

[DiamondHearts]

So his name was really Abu al-Qasim? Why did no one call him Abu?

Abu translates to literally Father. Abu Qasim means father of Qasim, who was his eldest son. (rahmat allah alayhuma)

[madanthonywayne]

Abu translates to literally Father. Abu Qasim means father of Qasim, who was his eldest son. (rahmat allah alayhuma)
So he had no name? His name is just a list of who he is the father/son of? Why is that? I'm starting to wonder if he even existed.:confused:

[UriahtheHittite]

There are in fact seven primary religions that are monotheistic (as in having only one god): Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Samaritanism, Christianity (sorta), Islam, Sikhism, and Bahai.

There is a certain degree of moral agreement between them, at least among the orthodox elements. But each religion and most of the individual sects of those religions claim to the be "The Truth" and the "Only Truth," which makes unity difficult. While they war upon each other, verbally and literally, they have seven opponents who are making huge progress: atheism, secularism, humanism, materialism, sensualism, neo-paganism, and non-deistic religion (religions without a god or supernatural being).

Unity need not come between the monotheisms by coming to an agreement about doctrine, so much as an agreement that above all other things there is ONE GOD, and moreso agreeing on "moral principles." But here again, there are usually liberal and conservative factions within each of the monotheisms, and within the various sects thereof, and so even moral agreement is impossible to achieve. The conservative elements are not going to even entertain the notion of unity and the liberal elements are so concerned with being politically correct and kissing the arses of the popular culture that they are sell-outs (watered down religion tailored to the ideal of "Do whatever you want as long as it does not hurt anyone").

So moderates are the target group---those who can see the big picture of the necessity for unity in the face of being overrun by secularist forces and forced into a liberalistic worldview that excludes the centricity of God and God's will.

Bahai is attempting to unite the various forms of monotheism, but also the non-monotheistic and non-deistic as well, and they are so pacifistic and so concerned about being "nice" that I just cannot imagine that they can succeed at anything accept helping to create the New Secular World Order.

Anyway, I am feeling greatly distressed as of late about the Global Effort to EGO (edge God out), and don't understand why more people are not upset by the secularist agenda to force liberal values upon God-centered societies and people.

:confused:

[Fraggle Rocker]

There are in fact seven primary religions that are monotheistic (as in having only one god): Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Samaritanism, Christianity (sorta), Islam, Sikhism, and Bahai.Don't forget the Rastafarians.Anyway, I am feeling greatly distressed as of late about the Global Effort to EGO (edge God out). . . .Why??? Monotheistic religion has, arguably, been responsible for more evil than any other force in human history. (Sam will jump in at this point and mention communism, and I will remind her that communism is an offshoot of Christian civilization and that "To each according to his needs, from each according to his ability" is a quote from the New Testament that no self-respecting Hindu or Confucian would have thought up.) The armies of monotheism, in the name of their god and with the blessing of their religious leaders, obliterated three of the world's six irreplaceable civilizations: Egypt, Aztec and Inca.. . . . and don't understand why more people are not upset by the secularist agenda to force liberal values upon God-centered societies and people.Like peace and tolerance, the two "liberal values" that monotheist communities defy en masse every couple of generations when they restart their incessant wars? As Carl Jung said, "No wars in history have been as bloody as those between the Christian nations."

Let's hope the forthcoming war between the Christian, Muslim and Jewish nations doesn't prove him wrong.

[Photizo]

... "To each according to his needs, from each according to his ability" is a quote from the New Testament...

A quote from the New Testament, eh? For the benefit of the οἱ πολλοί, kindly cite the passage where that "quote" can be found.

[Fraggle Rocker]

A quote from the New Testament, eh? For the benefit of the οἱ πολλοί, kindly cite the passage where that "quote" can be found.Hmm. I've never looked it up before since I don't have a bible. The best I can do is this website, (http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/From-each-according-to-his-ability,-to-each-according-to-his-need#Origin_of_the_phrase) which says that Marx was inspired by the two lines reproduced from the Book of Acts. Obviously it turns out not to be a quote. Sorry.

BTW, hoi is the Greek plural definite article, so "the hoi polloi" is redundant.;)

[spidergoat]

Have religions ever unified? I can't think of a single instance. If anything, they split off sects like crazy. Mormonism is only 180 years old and there are already dozens of spin-off religions.