Most Common Archetypes

[TruthSeeker]

What are the most common archetypes found throughout religions, and what do they mean?

[spidergoat]

Virgin birth
resurrection
flying

to name a few

[TruthSeeker]

Where do you see those aside from christianity?

[Oli]

Mithraism, Egyptian mythology, Celtic mythology... for resurrection at least.

[spidergoat]

sacrifice

seen famously in mesoamerican religions

[TruthSeeker]

What's the point of ressurection, then? Why is it do popular?

[spidergoat]

transcending death is a common theme because people fear death

[TruthSeeker]

Why do they?

[Athelwulf]

It's a great evolutionary advantage to fear death, for reasons I'm sure are obvious.

[TruthSeeker]

If you live in the wild... I suppose. But not nowdays...

[andbna]

Nowadays things are just as dangerous. Do you check both ways before crossing the street? or better still, do you stroll across a freeway at will? :P

How about "do unto others..." the golden rule? I'd say thats an archetype.
-Andrew

[Michael]

What are the most common archetypes found throughout religions, and what do they mean?The redeemer.

sacrifices himself for the well being of humanity

[Avatar]

Any archetype is met in almost all mythologies of the world, that's why it's an archetype.

Some archetypes: trickster, soul, god, afterlife, virgin birth, resurrection/second birth, redeeming hero, the power of sacriface, spirit world, the serpent.

This is an interesting topic, but unfortunately I have my exams full swing now. Don't have the time... :(

p.s. Golden rule is no archetype, it's just ethics.

[Athelwulf]

If you live in the wild... I suppose. But not nowdays...

Andbna already gave a pretty good reply. But that aside, you asked why people fear death. I answered. ;)

[Avatar]

It's not only fear of death, but on how to live, how to face problems and fear, how to be a good husband/wife, how to deal with enemies, how to be not influenced by others, etc. All to do with modern life, because on the social level it's not much different.

p.s. I spend lots of my time in the wild.

[Athelwulf]

Good, evil, the struggle between the two, and the ultimate triumph of the former over the latter.

Creation. Floods or other natural disasters brought on by the divine. The end of the world. A reward/punishment system tied to behavior.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that the archetypes in religion, for the most part, can be found even in lots of cultures' non-religious arts and literatures. I think we're all describing archetypes in the way humans think, rather than merely archetypes of religion.

[Avatar]

Good, evil, the struggle between the two, and the ultimate triumph of the former over the latter.
Good and evil - no. It's mostly a semitic concept. Many mythologies have nothing to do with good and evil.
Besides not everywhere the 'good' triumphs.

Sorry about the short answers, when the exams finish, I will write a proper reply in this thread.

[Avatar]

I think we're all describing archetypes in the way humans think, rather than merely archetypes of religion.
Religion uses the archetypes, archetypes are independent of religion and are a part of our psyche.

[The Devil Inside]

jung is one of my favorites. :)

[Wisdom_Seeker]

I´m impressed no one had mention the most common archetype of all. And it is the unnatural taboo of sex... ejaculation?

Even the most primitive cultures have this taboo, some african tribes cut down the females´ clitoris. 50% of men in the US are circumsized, and even the Bible starts with a man and a woman, isn´t that normal?
Cosidering we are naturally like animals, it is the superiority complex (belief of being superior than animals) that made men realize they were behaving like animals, sexually speaking.

[Grantywanty]

Yes and no.

And I don't see why you make the difference - internal or external reality, it's all reality, any other is just a concept and does not objectively exist.

The difference is that your position is potentially athiestic. If the idea (complex, father-archetype) is only inside and gets projected on external reality than religious people, in general, are mistaken. Athiests tend to belief that people exist and psyches exist but do not believe in gods (or resurections of dead to living bodies as another example). Nor in Heaven, hell and so on.

You may not be saying this, but I think many Jungians are saying this and I think the word 'archetype' has this baggage and becomes propaganda in this context.

[one_raven]

It's a great evolutionary advantage to fear death, for reasons I'm sure are obvious.

I disagree.

They are not quite so obvious to me.

Do you think animals fear death?
My guess is that they lack the ability for complex abstract thought and belief systems to even grasp the concept of death, let alone fear it.

I think they seek comfort and avoid pain, and nothing more complex than that.

I also think fear is a human invention.

[one_raven]

Human's fear of death and the unknown is at the root of religion and the formation of the archetypes.

Beging very vague and general, of course...
Someone who is holy (is more pure than you and knows more than you) often born of a virgin (again lending to purity and divine origin) and knows the secret to being happy in life, and what happens after death becomes a martyr and is resurrected to avoid death.

[TruthSeeker]

Star Wars have archetypes too... :D

It's like modern day mythology.... :eek:

[Avatar]

George Lucas made Star Wars after consulting Joseph Campbell, so there's no surprise.
Star Wars was modeled on the age old hero myth with the help of one of the top comparative religion scholars.

Skywalker - redeeming hero (walking in the sky)
Darth Vader - dark father
Yoda - classical helper
princess Lea - first lover, then becomes one of the family - same blood
Force - can I say chi?
etc, etc.

[TruthSeeker]

Yes... Star Wars was very inspired by eastern philosophies. Just take a look at Yoda, for instance. And what they say about the force. Even their clothes resemble kimonos! :D

[Light Travelling]

If all these are archetypes, how are they passed?

One either has to take the position that the information is passed genetically? Or that the mind has access to some form of shared consciousness, or pool of information?


If the answer is neither of these, then the archetypal information is just picked up from stories and myths when young. If this is the case then it seems to me that they are not really archetypes (as I understand the term) but just real experiences that have been mythologized and are verbally passed from generation to generation.


Unless I am missing something?

EDIT :- I am missing something, there is another possible way in which archetypes could be passed; if reincarnation occurs then that is how archetypal information is transmitted through generations and comes out of our subconscious memories.

[Light Travelling]

Here's another one.............. are we all no more than walking archrtypes ouselves? Just look through this forum, is not everyone just an archetype?



Do we just pick an archetype for ourselves from within our psyche and then play the role through life..??

[denis]

shared consciousness

[whitewolf]

I disagree.

They are not quite so obvious to me.

Do you think animals fear death?
My guess is that they lack the ability for complex abstract thought and belief systems to even grasp the concept of death, let alone fear it.

I think they seek comfort and avoid pain, and nothing more complex than that.

I also think fear is a human invention.

Do you have any basis for such a guess? During mating contests, animals aren't afraid of pain. When a carnivore grabs its leggy prey by the buttocks, it gets kicked and often has broken bones; yet the carnivore continues hunting, because it needs food in order to remain alive. I recall an episode of Planet Earth from two weeks ago where a wild dog was chasing an antelope (or what was it?) and the prey jumped into a pool of water even though it wasn't a great swimmer and couldn't stay in the water for too long (thus, gave in to prolonged discomfort in order to avoid death). Humans fear pain because this fear is necessary for our survival. It's not an invention but an instinct that we're born with. Why do you think animals don't fear death?

[Avatar]

Archetypes are simply instincts that are expressed as stories, visual images, dreams and other motifs, rather than in a more basic fashion like simpler instincts such as the desire to procreate or run away from a predator.
Great input! I hadn't thought of archetypes as instincts before. Thanks! I have some food for thought now. :)

[TruthSeeker]

Hey! My posts are missing! That's not fair! :mad:

[Avatar]

Not missing, please see here: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=67889
I created a new thread to avoid off topic posting.

[TruthSeeker]

Sorry. I just notice the thread... LOL! :p

:o

[one_raven]

Do you have any basis for such a guess? During mating contests, animals aren't afraid of pain. When a carnivore grabs its leggy prey by the buttocks, it gets kicked and often has broken bones; yet the carnivore continues hunting, because it needs food in order to remain alive. I recall an episode of Planet Earth from two weeks ago where a wild dog was chasing an antelope (or what was it?) and the prey jumped into a pool of water even though it wasn't a great swimmer and couldn't stay in the water for too long (thus, gave in to prolonged discomfort in order to avoid death). Humans fear pain because this fear is necessary for our survival. It's not an invention but an instinct that we're born with.
I think avoidance of pain is not necessarily the same thing as fear of pain.
It may seem a pedantic point to make, but I think it's an important distinction to recognize.
I know that if I place my hand on the hot frying pan, it will hurt a great deal.
By not placing my hand on the frying pan, does that necessarily imply that I fear the frying pan, heat or pain?
I don’t think it does.
If I were afraid of frying pans, I would never touch one again.
If I were afraid of hot frying pans, I would never cook again.
If I were afraid of pain, I would also never cook again (or do anything that might result in hurting me).

When I cook, I do so taking care to avoid touching the hot surfaces, because pain is unpleasant.
What suggests to you that it is any more than simple avoidance of that which causes the discomfort of pain?

This is not to say that there is no such thing as survival instinct.
Instinct, by definition, is not rationalized, however.
Look at your antelope.
He went into the water because he was trying to avoid the pain of being attacked by a vicious dog and he was trying to avoid death.
Avoiding death is simple survival instinct – it does not imply a fear of death.

Why do you think animals don't fear death?
As I said, I think they lack the ability for complex abstract thought and belief systems to even grasp the concept of death, let alone fear it.

Fear of death requires the ability to consider and conjure complex abstract ideas.
You must be able to grasp the concept of death and consider the outcome of your death to harbor a fear of it.
Animals, by all appearances, do not have this ability.
As much as it may upset some atheists to consider, one of the most significant aspects that separate humans from the rest of the animals is religion.
Religion, Worship, Philosophy, Ethics – these are all complex, abstract notions that animals show no ability to grasp.
Yes, I know that some animals appear to have complex social rules and practices – that is a far cry, however, from the practice of exploration of ethics and justification of actions.

Fear, is an abstraction.

[one_raven]

Furthermore, I don't think fear is an advantage in any situation.

The state or condition we generally refer to as "fear" is really a state of heightened sensual awareness.
Your heart pumps faster racing blood to your extremeties.
Your hair stands on end, making your skin more sensitive to touch.
Smells and sounds are more distinct.
Your vision is sharper and more vivid.
Your mind is moving faster.
Your reflexes are keener.
Adrenaline production ramps up.

When we sense danger, our bodies go into this heightened state of awareness, so we can better cope with the situation at hand - whether we choose fight or flight, we will perform better.

People have condition responses to this reaction. They understand, on some visceral, instinctive level, that this is a reaction to danger and the state of heightened awareness sets them into panic mode.
The fear comes from lack of self-confidence, past failures, insecurities, wariness of the unknown and other weaknesses that have been ingrained in the psyche over the years.
A heightened state of awareness is a normal, healthy thing.
Fear is a man-made weakness.

Fear lead to panic, which leads to poor decision making, which leads to negative results (in the wild, it often leads to death).

[one_raven]

Fear also leads to pre-occupation, which leads to obsession, which leads to neuroses.

I can go on and on about the disadvantages of fear - I have lately (it seems it just keep coming up here lately).

[TruthSeeker]

Fear is an emotion that clouds reason.

Hence why we have catholicism...:D

[one_raven]

Fear is an emotion that clouds reason.

Hence why we have catholicism...:D

Fear is not an emotion at all, it's a condition.

[Wisdom_Seeker]

Fear is not an emotion at all, it's a condition.

I think it is an emotion, hence, it provokes a condition
can you elaborate?

[one_raven]

I think it is an emotion, hence, it provokes a condition
can you elaborate?

I did.
A few posts up.

The state or condition we generally refer to as "fear" is really a state of heightened sensual awareness.
Your heart pumps faster racing blood to your extremeties.
Your hair stands on end, making your skin more sensitive to touch.
Smells and sounds are more distinct.
Your vision is sharper and more vivid.
Your mind is moving faster.
Your reflexes are keener.
Adrenaline production ramps up.

When we sense danger, our bodies go into this heightened state of awareness, so we can better cope with the situation at hand - whether we choose fight or flight, we will perform better.

People have condition responses to this reaction. They understand, on some visceral, instinctive level, that this is a reaction to danger and the state of heightened awareness sets them into panic mode.
The fear comes from lack of self-confidence, past failures, insecurities, wariness of the unknown and other weaknesses that have been ingrained in the psyche over the years.
A heightened state of awareness is a normal, healthy thing.
Fear is a man-made weakness.


It's a state of being that involves a slew of emotions related to feeling insecure and unsure - it is not am emotion itelf.

[TruthSeeker]

Huuuuuummm.... I can see that... :)

I guess a lot of "emotions" are really a combination of a lot of things....

[Wisdom_Seeker]

I did.
A few posts up.

It's a state of being that involves a slew of emotions related to feeling insecure and unsure - it is not am emotion itelf.

But when you feel anger:
- Your heart beats stronger.
- The blood concentrates in your arms.
- Your perspective becomes "blurry".

Isn´t this a condition as well then?