I'd like to acknowledge Buffalo Roam for his contributions in this thread: [thread=65449]Deadly shooting at a US University[/thread] The following is essentially a copy of his comments, adapted to the topic of the present thread. ------ It seems that most people here don't get it, the United States is a loser, and you're trying to understand it as a rational nation, that is your mistake, the country isn't rational, it is irrational, and doesn't care that it is. It didn't seek any help for its problems ... The government doesn't have to protect you, the police don't have to protect you ... it is up to you to protect your self, that means start making a plan think it out ... ...well sorry it was America, and the American people alone that chose the path that they embarked on. They are the ones who went down this road of personnel failure in not having gun controls, and when they realized this, rather than accepting that it was their own failing, and doing something constructive about, they let a gunman destroy 32 lives, and the livers of their families. What America should have done is shoved its guns as far down its own throat as it would go and pulled the trigger, then they would have gotten the people that was truly responsibly for their failure of his life. And it is a personal decision to defend the "right to bear arms", and the wrong decision, there are many other things that can be done with out killing others, and taking out your own failure on the innocent, and it is America and America alone who is responsible for the actions of distrubed individuals who have ready access to guns. Americans made the choices, all along the way, they alone. They were the ones who didn't seek help, they were the ones who failed to take the help offered by other nations that have taken a sensible approach to gun control. They are the ones who choose to let the killings continue. A big pile of Bull Shit, no rational nation would let its citizens own high-powered weapons without restriction, let alone use them against 32 people that present no threat, only a loser country shoots 32 people to assuage its own failure in life. America is the one who couldn't face its collective failure and make the choice to seek help to change the situation, it was its decisions, in trying not to face and accept the facts in his life, and seek help out side itself that led to this. It was so afraid to admit that it was responsible for its own failings that it placed the blame on others and rationalized the killings to salve its own failings. That is right. America is the country responsible for its actions on gun control, and for all the help that is offered to it, it is its responsibility to accept that help, but it doesn't. In that country today, because of the liberal do gooders and redneck NRA members, you can't force the nation into treatment for its gun-problem blindness, and in the PC world we are are not supposed to question the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. We might set people off by doing so. Well it doesn't matter if we ask or not about America's problems, until we can place them into treatment without their consent, and they can't decide for themselves to leave the treatment program they are going to live in their own little world and when they can't accept any longer, that they are the ones responsible for their own failure, they will take it out on people who are innocent. It is they who make the choice, and they alone who have to carry the blame. ------ Thanks, Buffalo. Well said.
the government has no right to restrict what i choose to include in a list of my personal property. they are not an authority, they are servants of the people. if i wanted to buy a ground to air missile defense system, the government should have no say in it.
Part of what makes this country great is that the government has to fer the people and not the other way around. If these people were not able to get guns they would figure out other amusing ways of inflicting mass casualties i thought of three while typing the first sentence. Freedom is always dangerous and it can be made so much safer with just one of several small steps towards tyrany. But it is almost impossible to get freedom back once it is lost. It is a tragedy that these people died but that does not mean that I who have not committed a crime should lose my rights.
Logical fallacy. You are the government. Hence you do have a say in what you put in your backyard. Hence you do have a say in what you not put in your backyard. Of course the rant on freedom is all meaningless if you do things such as watch TV, follow blindly the cultural indoctrination that you should be free at all costs. Let's define freedom. 1. to do whatever you want to do? No. You picked the wrong species. The humans species is a social species. Individual rights once were instigated to combat the tyranny of certain individuals, and many people seem to have lost track on what it is really about. Social structure that allows healthy social interactions. It's not really interesting if you can own a gun or not. Humans have been around for thousands of years without owning a gun. It doesn't make us human.
I'd like a ground missile to large population center offense system. I'd show those bloody Dutch what-for.
not anymore. you of all people should know that the american government doesnt represent the will of its citizens, and hasnt for a very long time. the government in the united states is forced on the people by the threat of the barrel of a gun...
No but granting the government more power is like giving cookies to children. it only encouages them to want more. They are my cookies not the governments thank you. Yes I am part of the government but I am resticted by 300 million other parts or Iran might be the worlds largest pot hole. I only surrender those rights that are absolutely necessary to communal harmony. I only surrender them conditionally and reiterate. They are my rights. Thousands of Americans have died to preserve these freedoms. It is a tragedy that these victims died. Think how many lives could be saved as well as the fuel savings if every car had a governor on it that resticted its speed to 30 miles per hour. How many lives would be saved by random searches of cars and vehicles. There is always a good reason for giving up a right that you do not use or to restrict someone elses frivolous freedoms.
Are the gun-ownership rights of one haunted individual more important than the right to life of the other 32 innocents he killed?
yes. they are dead. this should not have an effect on the rights of the living. its a shitty thing to have happened, but there is no reason to give up liberty for security. thats tyranny in action.
Is having a gun liberty or tyranny in action. Isn't not having any guns liberty? Isn't the threat of unchecked lethal violence tyranny? Isn't the government oppressing the people/sheople with their monopoly on state violence tyrants? Is having a large distrubution of guns into a population of sheople tyranny? When is the last time a well regulated militia rose against the US government to say no more? What I am trying to say is let's cut down on the rethoric and let's analyze what is really going on.
theoretically, i shouldnt have to even worry about the government monitoring what i do with the internet..... unfortunately, i will be forced to use layers upon layers of proxy servers in order to look at some of the things i look at now, upon my arrival in the states. its a sad state of affairs when an individual feels the need to hide personal interests from the government (as long as the interests are legal).
Sure they have. You have no right to own a slave, endangered spieces, RPGs, ICBMs, deadly viruses,etc. Society has to deffend itself from its own members...
1. the point is that guns are personal property, and as long as your guns arent used in illegal activities, they should not be regulated. 2. the freedom to bear arms in the united states is one of the most important checks against tyrannical government (in spirit). 3. there are several operating militias in the united states, and i was raised in the company of one of them (michigan militia). i dont agree with many of their philosophies, but i respect their right to organize, and would defend that right to the death. 4. what is really going on is a situation in which certain political entities within the united states are going to attempt more regulation of firearms, where the constitution expressly forbids such governmental interference against its citizens. the only way the government can strip gun ownership from the civilian population is through a violation of the posse comitatus act. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! edit: forgot link.
Let's take it from here. line 2 is pure propaganda from a rational viewpoint. There has never been a military uprising against the US government. And there will never be. The thought that people own guns and they need guns for an uprising are two different concepts. Uprisings cannot be won by civilizations or paramilitary organizations with small arms (as in weapons and not limbs). See the situation in Iraq. The revolutionaries have access to more than small arms. Still the occupying forces have the general command and have installed a puppet regime. The US people cannot overthrow their government with their meager weapons. 1. To let them have guns is merely a means of indoctrination. The US government knows that it means nothing whether the people have guns or not, other than that it pacifies them. I have my gun so in principal I can revolt. And that is of course a complete sham. The american people cannot even make a difference by voting, let alone revolt. 2. The American government has promoted the idea of super-individualism. This has created a society based on greed and self-interest. It also eroded the social structure that kept the american people together and replaced it by singing the national anthem and pledging allegiance to the US constitution. A fake social fabric: the impotent social fabric of loyalty to the Nation state. The nation state being of course the flag, the constitution, the right to own guns, the US military, the US government, the US president. Not your neighbour of course. He is out there to get you. One could go on and on but I will spare you the ramblings of an old fool and leave it at this. And now I ask you to re-examine everything you ever thought and took for granted. What is the American people? What does it really mean that I can own a gun? Is the convenience of owning a car worth the death and destruction it causes? Is convenience freedom? What is the USA? And do I need a gun to fight against the US regime of tyranny? Did Ghandi need a gun to overthrow the British regime? Is there maybe another reason why the American government wants you to have guns and stimulates you to think it means freedom? yes, conspiracy on the highest order. Matmarr is my guru.
There have been numerous uprisings. Civil war is a big one. Prior to that, there was John Brown at Harper's Ferry. There were numerous uprisings in the decades after the Revolutionary War- vets demanding pay, poor farmers demanding reform, angry militias heading down to the local jail to bust the arrested leader out of lockup, taking over the local infrastructure, getting chased by the cavalry. Americans also turned to their guns during the strikes of the late 19th and early 20th century. While this usually ended in tragedy and the strikers broken up, national attention was called to the issue as dozens of strikers would be killed in shoot outs with company men.
Did the american people pick up their guns to fight the civil war against the tyranny of government? let's not go off a silly tangent.
