Are there shortcuts through Space

[LIGHTBEING]

I found this very interesting. What are your thoughts

Stardate

According to accepted models of general relativity, it is feasible in areas of intensely strong gravity for the fabric of local space-time geometry to become so severely warped that it folds in on itself and "re-connects" to another area in space-time — perhaps another universe, or another place and time in our own. The connections are called "wormholes," and have often been postulated as potential means of traveling to distant stars and galaxies.

Unfortunately, the intense gravity needed to produce such an effect — such as that of a black hole — collapses the wormhole before it could be used for a real traveler. Astrophysicists remain undaunted, however, and study continues into means of artificially producing a wormhole, and keeping it open long enough to use.

I believe it is our destiny to keep those holes open.

Peace

[(Q)]

A rotating black hole or 'Kerr black hole' is theorized to have a deformed ring shaped singularity. A mathematical description of this geometry allows for certain paths to act as entry and exit points that will avoid the singularity. In other words, you may theoretically travel through the singularity to another spacetime or a different universe altogether thus avoiding the singularity.

But wormholes, like black holes, are mathematical models of general relativity. Nature may chose not to follow these models. And although evidence of massive gravitational sources have been detected and have been theorized to be black holes, evidence for wormholes does not exist.

The amount of gravitational radiation makes wormholes an unlikely candidate for travel.

[apolo]

I read Lightbeeing's post and Q's reply, and I find the subject interesting as a thought experiment. But let us not forget that black holes and worm holes are purely hypothezised objects. There is no solid evidence for their existence.
A ringshaped singularity ? is'nt that an oxymoron. My understanding of a singularity is an infinitely small point o zero dimention, correct me if I am wrong.

Signed APOLO

[LIGHTBEING]

Singularity is a point in space-time at which gravitational forces cause matter to have infinite density and infinitesimal volume, and space and time to become infinitely distorted.

[(Q)]

A ringshaped singularity ? is'nt that an oxymoron. My understanding of a singularity is an infinitely small point o zero dimention, correct me if I am wrong.

Kerr black holes have spinning singularities. As the star collapses, the core conserves its angular momentum similar to that of a skater pulling in their arms to increase the speed of their spin. The singularity takes on a ring shape as the equatorial region begins to bulge outwards due to the rapid spinning. The singularity is no longer a mathematical point but instead becomes a ring singularity with a finite radius.

Black holes are generally defined by their 3 physical parameters; mass, charge and spin.

[alice]

nope..cuz of singularity

[alice]

anyone been reading on faster than light theories, light as a superfluid? quantum gravity info?

[Magic Chicken]

Singularities do not have general bulk properties such as mass, density, curvature, etc. Singularities (in particular in general relativity solutions) are areas where the metric stops, blows up, isn't defined properly. This area can have any particular shape you like.

The additional properties of "infinite density, curvature, etc" are added by looking at the environment the singularity lives in. For example, we know a black hole ought to have a lot of mass. The theory tells us that once inside the horizon all the mass heads for the centre. The metric tells us that along the way to the centre there's no mass. So we infer that the mass which is there must all be at the centre.

The "infinities" in density and curvature are unlikely to be accurate. General relativity cannot account for quantum effects in the near vicinity of the centre. It's most likely that quantum gravitational effects will smear the centre out to finite (but high) densities and curvatures.


Hope this helps!
The Chicken

[ElectricFetus]

I believe that wormholes can be made but estimates on the amount power needed to make one and keep it open are so titanic that we can only hope if feasible to make one large enough to pass light through… let alone things as big as people. Yet still a wormhole optic (hehe like Fiber optic) network would be able to seamlessly link any point in the universe with no ping or latency. Instantaneous communication could still be jest as good as instantaneous transportation: you could still teleport your mind and thoughts anywhere… you would just have to leave your body.

[alice]

you want to space travel, you're gonna have to make yourself quantumly small... ditto for your space ship.

good luck

[herbicide]

to simplify other posts, wormholes.

[Dinosaur]

From everything I have read, no practical use can be made of a wormhole. The knowledgeable people who write about them mention fierce energy requirements. The vicinity of a wormhole associated with a Black Hole cannot be anything but an incredibly hostile environment for a person or for equipment.

Is there reason to believe that we would have control over where the other end of a wormhole might be? Nobody mentions this detail, so I am guessing that we would have no such control.

If wormholes exist and if they are somehow usable, what makes anybody expect them to provide a pathway to something worth going to? Why should the other end of the wormhole be light years away instead of 500 yards?

I see no reason to expect our universe to be embedded in hyperspace in such a way to provide incredible shortcuts via a wormhole. Imagine 2D creatures living on the surface of a torus. A trip through the center would be at best 32% of the long way on the surface. For other trips, the short cut might be 75% or more of the long way. 32-75% of an astronomical distance is still an astronomical distance.

If the wormhole led to another universe, what are the chances of it leading to some place worth going to? If somebody from another universe came to a random place in our universe, he would have little chance of being within a million light years of any star. Without FTL drive, the trip does not seem worth the effort, although it would have some satisfaction effects for a scientist type. If guaranteed a return trip, I would like to go for much the same reason that I once went to the Salt Flats. I would not expect to see anything really interesting, but a trip to a different place is interesting in itself.

[Vortexx]

The nearly instant communication of quantum entangled particles reminds me somewhat of a wormhole. It is like they have become part of a string or M-brane that connects them through another dimension bypassing our ordinary 4d space?

[Reinstein]

Dinosaur,

I think a strong pattern in science has been SMALL steps. We are no where near knowing the practicability or means that would be undertaken if one was able to create a wormhole. The first wormhole won't send a manned mission to a planet thousands of light years away. It will probably be a single subatomic particle that jumps a few nanometers in a lab. The idea may seem far fetched, but it is hard to speculate either way because we just DONT KNOW how it would work. Long ago flying seemed incredulous, only because it seemed impossible, one couldn't grasp how physical laws would allow flight. My only point is that you should keep your eyes open to possibilities, not shut. The image or idea in your mind, as well as mine, will most definitely be entirely different from the reality of taking a cosmic shortcut. Until it happens, one can only argue specific approaches, rather than refuting the entire topic.

Haha, wow. 9 smiley's to chose from plus a marijuana leaf. Seems rather odd dont you think?

[Dinosaur]

Reinstein: There seems to be no doubt in your mind that a practical wormhole will be invented.. . .The first wormhole won't send a manned mission to a planet thousands of light years away. . .

Until it happens, one can only argue specific approaches, rather than refuting the entire topic. . .The human mindscape will forever include concepts that will not be achieved. I suspect that a usable wormhole is one of them, along with other types of magic.

The lack of knowledge of hundreds of years ago is presented as a reason to believe anything. This is a fallacious argument, usable to support any wild notion.. . .Long ago flying seemed incredulous, only because it seemed impossible, one couldn't grasp how physical laws would allow flight. . .I consider human knowledge to be analogous to a converging series. As terms are added to the series, the sum gets closer to some limit. As we learn more about our universe, there is less left to discover.

The current forntiers of physics are far removed from what they were hundreds of years ago. Chemistry was limited to a knowledge of making various compounds, with no knowleged of valance electrons or nuclear structure. Physics was primitive, with no equations for gravity or mechanics.

Do you really think it is reasonable to believe in almost anything because people 500 years ago had poor concepts? I have seen posts suggesting belief in the Star Trek Transporter. Do you consider that credulous also?

We do not know it all, but we keep getting closer. Some knowledge will always be beyond our ability to understand, like the ability to visualize 4D & 5D geometric objects. Other concepts from the mindscape will be forever impossible like the Star Trek transporter.

[Paul W. Dixon]

Quantum Computation

Where these variables of time and space may also reach a more immediate transcendance is in the now emerging quantum computer. With the possibility of employing quantum entanglement for communication between computers, instantaneous communication over infinite distances may obtain. Since tensors form essential linkage in the information flow for the quantum computer, it may be possible to communicate both forwards and backwards in time using these devices since this capacity is clearly explicated by the tensor forms used in these equations.

May the next generation in the search for extraterrestrial intelligence use this kind device!

These equations are described in the The American Mathematical Monthly in the article by Stan Gudder entitled: Quantum Computation (Volume 110 Number 3, March 2003, pp. 181 - 191)
This journal is a very standard mathematical journal which is very correct and complete in its mathematical derivations.

It may, therefore, be possible to provide for the overcoming of spatio-temporal difficulties long before we have mastered the intricacies of white wormhole geometry.

Many thanks for your most kind attention in these most salient matters.

Yours sincerely,

Paul W. Dixon, Ph.D.

[wet1]

I consider human knowledge to be analogous to a converging series. As terms are added to the series, the sum gets closer to some limit. As we learn more about our universe, there is less left to discover.

Interesting... but I have another view on this. As long as discoveries lead to more questions than it answers, it gives indication that there is a long way to go to reach any limit of knowledge. If past indications have any type of pointer in this direction, it is that the more you learn, the more unfolds to be learned that wasn't suspected to be there. Like layers of an onion, you can not percieve the next layer till you have passed through the one before it, at some point. Many examples exist of this, I am sure it is easy for the reader to come up with far more than I could supply as an example.

I have always wondered if there might not be a species blindspot also. Something that we would not consider to even discover because our make-up prevents us from thinking in that direction. Without clues we could recognise as such we would never discover it by ourselves. Thinking of what a two dimension plane might consist of would be within our understanding. Thinking of what a 12 dimension plane might consist of is entirely outside our capabilites (or if you think it is then raise the number to whatever). That is a poor example, as it grants that we know and can think of dimensional planes whether they exist or not. But surely there is enough there that you catch my drift.

Nor am I totally sure that there comes an end of knowledge. That there is some point where we can not learn anymore. Much like the Star Trek movie where Voyager needed to combine to gain additional insite and viewpoint to continue to learn. It kind of demonstates the point above in an outlandish way. At any rate we are on the voyage of knowledge as a species and have been ever since we discovered caves and fire. Maybe at some point we get a glimse of whether this is true or not...

[Vortexx]

I think there are shortcuts through space, but using them would probably be like taking a shortcut through a meatgrinder....

But who knows, maybe asymmetric Kerr singularities allow us to arrive in one piece, but I really insist that you go first mmkay?:p

[Paul W. Dixon]

QUANTUM ENTANGLEMENT

"It's not your grandfather's quantum mechanics. Today researchers treat entanglement as a physical resource: Quantum information can now be measured, mixed, distilled, concentrated and diluted."

The phenomenon of teleporation, albeit at the quantum level, has now been demonstrated in the laboratory - as mentioned in a recent article in the Physics Journal, Physics Today by Barbara M. Terhal, et al entitled Quantum Entanglement: A Modern Perspective, Physics Today April 2003 Volume 56, Number 4 pp 46 - 52.

All of the short-cuts through spacetime are now part of the standard model in physics. Additional research and technological development will soon bring these new developments out of the laboratory and into the classroom, the office and the home.

Bon Chance for one and all!!

Yours sincerely,

Paul W. Dixon, Ph. D.

[eburacum45]

Quantum entanglement does offer hope of communication across interstellar distances, but I believe that the information transmitted has to travel through classical channels so does not exceed light speed...
from the Wikipedia
http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_entanglement

Entanglement obeys the letter if not the spirit of relativity. Although two entangled systems can interact across large spatial separations, no useful information can be transmitted in this way, so causality cannot be violated through entanglement. This occurs for two subtle reasons: (i) quantum mechanical measurements yield probabilistic results, and (ii) the no cloning theorem forbids the statistical inspection of entangled quantum states.
However
Although no information can be transmitted through entanglement alone, it is possible to transmit information using a set of entangled states used in conjunction with a classical information channel. This process is known as quantum teleportation. Despite its name, quantum teleportation can not be used to transmit information faster than light, because a classical information channel is involved.
For the purposes of fiction, the Orion's Arm worldbuilding group follow Matt Visser's ideas of using exotic negative matter to keep wormholes open-
http://www.orionsarm.com/tech/wormhole_design_and_physics.html
http://www.orionsarm.com/tech/wormholes-faqs.html
of course, no-one has isolated exotic matter yet, but we do put this event safely two thousand years from now :)
__________________
SF worldbuilding at
http://www.orionsarm.com/main.html

[jcsd]

I don't think there is really much practical uses for quantum teleportation, teleporting a single particle is easy enough, but you just couldn't use practically on a macroscopic object.

Even if you could figure out a way to use it practically, it doesn't really help interstellar travel as you need someone at the other end anyway and the speed is still limited to classical commiunications. the only difficult in teleportation it resolves is the so-called "no clone theorum" which was thought to be a result of quantum mechanics.