How many languages / What languages do you speak?

[Giambattista]

Cool new subforum addition! I was wondering if anyone would ever add something like this.

Despite my screenname, I am not fluent in Italiano. Working on that, slowly but surely.

I have an enormous amount of interest in linguistics, but my shifting priorities and moods sometimes make it difficult for me make headway in studying, as well as other things. :(

How many languages are you fluent in?

If bi-lingual (or more), how and/or why did you learn those languages?


And I'm pleased to say that I'm the first to post in this new subforum. Excellent!:o

[Plazma Inferno!]

Thanks for the first post in new Linguistics forum! :)

I have decent knowledge in two and I 'think that I'm good' in two more. :D

[Giambattista]

Thanks for the first post in new Linguistics forum! :)

You're welcome!:p

Thanks for the first reply to the first post in the new Linguistics forum!

I have decent knowledge in two and I 'think that I'm good' in two more. :D

What would those be, by chance?

[Plazma Inferno!]

Thanks for the first reply to the first post in the new Linguistics forum!

Now you're welcome!

What would those be, by chance?

German and English. Swedish-wannabe and Italian-poorly.

Also some Slavic languages, mostly some swears and bad words. :D

[Giambattista]

Now you're welcome!
;)


German and English. Swedish-wannabe and Italian-poorly.

Took Deutsch in high school. Learned some beyond that on my own time, but sadly I've neglected it more than I would like.
Svenska seems interesting. For Germanic languages, I'd really like to learn Dutch.

Also some Slavic languages, mostly some swears and bad words. :D
Polish seems interesting, if I were to learn a Slavic language.

[orcot]

I'm pretty fluent in dutch,english and french.

[Zardozi]

I know english & gujarati very well, than comes in spanish for a strong third than Hindi as a weak fourth.

Zardozi

[UltiTruth]

Telugu, English & Hindi.

[Avatar]

I'm fluent in English and Latvian,
understand everything in Russian, can read it, but sometimes speaking gets hard,
I'm currently learning Spanish with my eyes set on French after that.

[Roman]

English and bad English.

[madanthonywayne]

English is my native tongue, but I'm also pretty good in Spanish. I learned Spanish in high school and "on the job". Since I have a Spanish last name, I used to get all the Spanish speaking patients in our group practice. I'm now fluent as far as doing an eye exam goes, but just OK otherwise.

This gets me in trouble sometimes as some of my patients think I speak perfect Spanish based on my performance during the exam. They soon learn otherwise.

[thedevilsreject]

i can speak english and am at a reasonably poor standard in french and italian

[John Connellan]

I did French in school, I studied Spanish for nearly a year, know a lot of Italian through study and similarity to Spanish and I know a lot of Polish people so I know basic Polish verb conjugation and phrases.

I also studied Irish Gaelic for 8 years

[D1v1ne]

I currently speak 9, 3 fluently, 3 decently, 3 need work.

[superluminal]

111

[spidergoat]

I speak American and Ebonics.

[John Connellan]

Can you count mathematics?!

[superluminal]

111

[francois]

A little French, German and Mandarin. And obviously, English.

[Genji]

Genji is English Only.:( I know several revolutionary slogans in Spanish but even that is getting rusty. I wish I knew several languages. Certainly Spanish and then French, German, Russian, Japanese.

[nicholas1M7]

Genji is English Only.:( I know several revolutionary slogans in Spanish but even that is getting rusty. I wish I knew several languages. Certainly Spanish and then French, German, Russian, Japanese.

I thought you knew two, gay and english.

[Fraggle Rocker]

I have my own scale of fluency, based on powers of three. 0 means you know 1 word, 1 means you know 3 words, 2 means you know 10 words..., 7 means you know 3,000, 8 means you know 10,000. It's harder to rate mastery of grammar objectively, but at this granularity most people have a consistent correlation between other elements of "fluency" and vocabulary size.

It conveniently peaks out at 10, there's probably never been a person who knew 100,000 words of any language, even Chinese. People like Winston Churchill would get a 9.5 in English.

On my own scale I'm 8.5 in English and 7.5 in Spanish. Then I drop embarrassingly in other languages which I feel I can "speak" well enough to be useful. 6.5 in Mandarin and German, 6 in French, Portuguese and Catalan, 5 in Czech and Yiddish.

Perhaps my scale doesn't work on Esperanto. I speak it much better than Spanish yet I don't think I have a large vocabulary. I guess that's the whole point of Esperanto, it's kind of a polysynthetic language in which you build your own words as you go. I had much better conversations with Esperanto speakers in Bulgaria and Hungary than with Spanish speakers in Spain and Mexico. I guess I have to assign myself an 8 subjectively.

[Genji]

I thought you knew two, gay and english.I don't speak gay. I told you I'm butch.:cool:

[James R]

I speak, write and understand English better than most (I hope!), and can comprehend many dialects of English (US, British, Australian etc.) I read French but certainly am not a fluent speaker. I know snippets of various other languages, but not so I can speak or understand them when spoken.

Do computer languages count? If they do, then I'm fluent in about 10 of them.

[Prince_James]

Fluent in English, proficient in Latin, and know I know a bit of German and Japanese.

[Medicine*Woman]

I speak American and Ebonics.

*************
M*W: Is Ebonics a native language for you?

[tablariddim]

I used to speak 'in tongues', praise da lord.

[phlogistician]

Fluent English (first language) can get by fairly well in French. I also have some German, albeit rusty.

[The Devil Inside]

um...

[Athelwulf]

Only one language, unfortunately: English. Aber ich kann ziemlich gut Deutsch. Y estoy familiarizado con español por que soy de una área (¿o un país? :D) donde unas personas lo hablan — pero yo sé apenas lo hablar.

And on another note: Yay for my first post in this forum. I'll try to get the most use out of this baby. :D

[Zephyr]

Just the one fluently, with smatterings of several more.

Esperanto tre bonas, sed mi ne trovis amikojn kun kiuj mi povas paroli. Kaj mi ne havas nun multan tempon.
(Esperanto is very good, but I didn't find friends with whom I can speak. And I don't have now much time.)

Do computer languages count? If they do, then I'm fluent in about 10 of them.
Most of them are dialects rather than languages - e.g. C, Pascal, C++, Java, and C# all descend from Algol. What's probably more important is how many programming paradigms you're familiar with - imperative, functional, concurrent, meta, etc.

[beholder]

English, German
and some French.

[Fraggle Rocker]

You folks should adopt my powers-of-three fluency scale:

0 = 1 word
1 = 3 words
2 = 10 words
3 = 30 words
4 = 100 words
5 = 300 words
6 = 1,000 words
7 = 3,000 words
8 = 10,000 words
9 = 30,000 words
10 = 100,000 words

Some of you who say you know "a little" of this or that may have a rating of 5 or 6. I got along remarkably well with my 5.5 in Italy.

[Athelwulf]

You folks should adopt my powers-of-three fluency scale:

I could be a six or even a seven in German. I guess I'm a nine in English. I don't think I'm quite a six in Spanish, or quite a five in French.

But I'm not sure how to estimate this. Suggestions?

[Facial]

According to Fraggle's scale:

English - 8.5
Spanish - 5 to 6
Mandarin - 5 to 6
Japanese - 3.5
Latin - 3
French - 2
Russian - 1
Korean - 1

Not too sure of this.

[Oniw17]

Other than English, I can answer specific questions that I learned from this CD in Gaelic, and I can somewhat understand Magyar, but I'm not very good at writing in either. I was able to have a conversation in Spanish when I was in seventh grade, and I know the numbers/colours/school supplies in French. I wouldn't say that I can speak fluently in any of these languages at the moment, but I'd probably be able to understand someone talking to me in spanish or magyar with only a small amount of confusion.

[draqon]

9 English
10 Russian
2 French

[river-wind]

I like the scale method. Very earthquake-y

English - 8.5
Spanish - 5.5
Japanese - 2.5
Chinese - 2.5
Hindi - 2
Cherokee - 3
Hodenoshonee - 2
Quechua - 1
Gealic - 2.5
My own lanaguage for my books #1: 4
My own lanaguage for my books #2: 3

I voted 1, though, 'cause I'm far from fluent in all but English (and computer languages).

[spuriousmonkey]

You folks should adopt my powers-of-three fluency scale:

0 = 1 word
1 = 3 words
2 = 10 words
3 = 30 words
4 = 100 words
5 = 300 words
6 = 1,000 words
7 = 3,000 words
8 = 10,000 words
9 = 30,000 words
10 = 100,000 words

Some of you who say you know "a little" of this or that may have a rating of 5 or 6. I got along remarkably well with my 5.5 in Italy.


Are you sure? You only need knowledge of 2000 words to write a PhD thesis in the field of history of science. My old professor told me that.

Of course he could be wrong, but he was like you one of those people who know a shitload of things.

[hug-a-tree]

Despite my screenname, I am not fluent in Italiano. Working on that, slowly but surely.


Oh la la, Italiano is super hot.

[hug-a-tree]

Gealic - 2.5


Okay, so Gaelic has to be one of the coolest languages in the world. I would say so.

[river-wind]

heh, sadly, I can't spell it ;)

Luckily for me spelling is not a requirment for life. I would have forgotten to breath a long time ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic_language

I like Hodenoshonee alot too, as far as pronounciation and word forms. Not nearly as much written on the subject, though. I'm just getting into a great book on common Unami jargon (Lenape of SE. PA, SW. NJ, N. DE), and it has some similarities, though the roots are completely different. Like a Latin Language vs a Germanic language.

Lots of fun to see how a culture influences it's language, and vise versa.

[Fraggle Rocker]

I could be a six or even a seven in German. I guess I'm a nine in English. I don't think I'm quite a six in Spanish, or quite a five in French.But I'm not sure how to estimate this. Suggestions?I meant for this to be a pretty coarse scale. Most people can make a good intuitive estimate of whether they know 1,000 or 3,000 or 10,000 words of a language. I guess I set a bad precedent by rating myself in increments of .5, but you don't have to do that.Other than English, I can answer specific questions that I learned from this CD in Gaelic.Hey hey hey! Does that mean you can answer the burning question that is perplexing us on another thread? How do they pronounce R in Gaelic??? Is it a trilled R with a tongue-flap as in most European languages, Japanese, and many others? A gargled uvular sound as in most Germanic languages and Parisian French? That strange semi-vowel of ours which, as far as I know, is unique to English? The simultaneous R and ZH that is, I guess, unique to Mandarin? Do the Scots and the Irish even pronounce Gaelic the same way, or is Scots Gaelic influenced by English phonetics?I like the scale method. Very earthquake-ySo you can tell I'm from California? :)Are you sure? You only need knowledge of 2000 words to write a PhD thesis in the field of history of science. My old professor told me that.I think he's putting you on, or else like most people he's dismally bad at numerical estimates. It's certainly true that if you get into a specialty you may be communicating primarily with a limited number of words peculiar to the specialty. I suppose if a foreigner came here, learned those 2,000 words, and wrote a successful thesis, I would have no qualms about rating him at 6.3 in English. Because once he walks out the door of the university science building, he'll find that he's not really fluent in English, not even just barely fluent. He won't be able to order food, find his way around by reading signs, or even carry on a casual conversation with a drunk in a bar. He certainly won't be able to get a job doing anything more than menial labor or writing theses on the history of science. :) In most languages, you need somewhere around 5,000 words to "get along" comfortably and be able to handle yourself in typical real-life situations, if both you and the native speaker are patient with each other.Of course he could be wrong, but he was like you one of those people who know a shitload of things.Yeah okay, I suppose he is like me. I say a lot of things that are wrong too. :)9 EnglishWell aren't you brave. You and Athel. I was a little reluctant to rate myself that high. I think I remember hearing that Churchill had a vocabulary of around 30,000 words when I was a kid (and he was still alive) and I don't think I'm in his league.

Ultimately it comes down to the definition of a "word." Obviously inflections don't count: see/sees/saw/seen. But what about syntheses from other languages that we still use as living tools: unify/unification? Or English-Latin hybrids like read/readable? As English continues to evolve from an inflected language into an analytic one, the concept of a "word" will be as difficult to define as in Chinese.

How do we count Chinese on my scale anyway? 5,000 kanji = 5,000 morphemes, and that's considered to be a very good written vocabulary. But you can put them together analytically into around 25,000 combinations that many Chinese scholars would say are their equivalent of words. Ji qi jiao ta che = gas engine foot stroke vehicle = motor bicycle = motorcycle. All made with "words" in my Fenn 5000 dictionary. If you know the Fenn 5000 are you a 7.5, which seems stingy, or a 9, which seems generous?

So my scale isn't perfect. Please don't anybody agonize over whether you're a 6.5 or a 7.0 in Swahili.

[w1z4rd]

English, Afrikaans, IsiXhosa and IsiZulu

[superstring01]

English and Spanish. Ugh. I'd really like to learn Mandrin and/or Arabic.

~String

[Fraggle Rocker]

English and Spanish. Ugh. I'd really like to learn Mandrin and/or Arabic.Mandarin is surprisingly easy. The most difficult part is the pronunciation. If you're young that shouldn't be bad. And of course the writing, but nobody bothers with that unless they want to be a scholar and read Kong Fu Zi in the original.

[BelgoHead]

Just wondering what languages everyone here can speak...


as for me, my first language was french but i forget it when i moved to canada :bawl:

[orcot]

:bugeye: you forgot you own language...
annyway dutch, english and a decend word of french

[Enmos]

Hey Orcot :D

I speak dutch (first language), english and a few words of german (very few).
I understand dutch, english and german.

[mikenostic]

English (native language)
German, semi-fluently (was fluent when I lived in Germany)
un poco Espanol

[draqon]

Russian
English
and a bit of french

[BelgoHead]

you forgot you own language...


Hey its pretty easy when your 4 year old and everyone speaks only english.

[Fraggle Rocker]

* * * NOTE FROM MODERATOR * * *

This thread has been merged with the one that already existed.

[Sir. Brilliance]

I though I saw this post a while back but I couldn't find it so...

How many languages do you know and how well?

Me:
English - Native
German - Native
Latin - Learning
Spanish - going to learn
Dutch- can guess at it
another language - going to learn

[EmptyForceOfChi]

well, i cant honestly vote for over 1 language. i speak english, (try to) obviously. but im not fluent in any other languages. i know enough of the following to survive in the culture though. i have not got advanced with any other than english though.

madarin/cantonese.
french.
korean.
japanese.


i can speak basic of the above. do you have to be very fluent in the votes?, and be able to use them as well as i can communicate in english?.


peace.

[Sir. Brilliance]

For the voting, I am assuming that you can speak well enough to converse about any general topic to decent enough levels. So not, hey what is your name. My name is John. But like Hey how are things today. Well at the office thigns are pretty good but my fiance is a fool. Or Hey, isn't that the guy we saw at wherever and be able to converse about it. Basically enough so that if you were to visti a country where the language is spoken, you wouldnt have to use a dictionary more then a few times to do everything you wanted.

[EmptyForceOfChi]

no i cant speak anything other than english at that kind of level. if i were living in another country for more than say 6 months, i will pick up anything quite fast. i am learning korean at the moment. im getting along ok, but as im not in the actual culture having to use it, im slacking ang going at a real slow pace.

i tend to try and learn too much stuff at the same time.


peace.

[Fraggle Rocker]

I can speak basic of the above. Do you have to be very fluent in the votes, and be able to use them as well as I can communicate in English?You can rate your own fluency. You're welcome to use Fraggle Rocker's Powers-of-3 Scale. (It's not copyrighted but I'd appreciate the credit if you share it.) It's based on vocabulary size, which is easy to estimate objectively. Obviouly it's assumed that you have a sufficient command of grammar at any level to make good use of that number of words, so you're not just a walking dictionary.

0 = 1 word
1 = 3 words
2 = 10 words
3 = 30 words
4 = 100 words
5 = 300 words
6 = 1,000 words
7 = 3,000 words
8 = 10,000 words
9 = 30,000 words
10 = 100,000 words

I find this to be a useful scale because the gradations are the right size to allow most people to give an integer rating. Although as you'll see in earlier posts, pedantic folks like myself get carried away and give ourselves fractional ratings. The logarithmic scale synchronizes with the way the rate of growth increases as we become more fluent: the second thousand words come far more quickly than the first thousand. And it fits neatly between a realistic maximum and minimum. Most cosmopolitan people know one word in almost any language they're interested in (sombrero, glasnost, shalom, fengshui), so that doesn't count. I don't think a human has ever lived who knew more than 100,000 words; Winston Churchill and William Shakespeare were estimated to have fallen just shy of that limit.

"Fluency" is difficult to appraise. I've been persuaded that fluency means that you think in the language, rather than thinking in your primary language and translating in real time. This is the threshold at which you begin to pick up the culture that goes with the language, because your thought patterns are strongly influenced by the structure and limitations of the language in which you think. For me, and I suspect for most adults learning a second language, fluency begins around Level 6 or 7. Obviously the level is much lower for children and for the immersion technique. When I insisted that my Chinese girlfriend speak Chinese with me at home, I was thinking in the words I knew clear down at Level 5.

Obviously this is designed by an American around the structures of the Indo-European languages I studied first. Feel free to reinterpret the scale (or the meaning of "word" in languages like Finnish and Chinese. If you know the entire Fenn Five Thousand in Chinese (or Japanese or Korean) you're surely at Level 9.5 . :)

[Oli]

Nice Fraggle - I will use that (and credit you).
Now bookmarked.

[sniffy]

Does body language count?

[Oli]

How many words?

[hypewaders]

Giambattista: "If bi-lingual (or more), how and/or why did you learn those languages?"

Living in multiple countries has been far more effective for me than language courses, although I did learn Russian that way in the military. Recency is the primary factor for me. Although my earliest schooling was in Arabic, my fluency in that language has severely atrophied over the years I've lived away from the Mideast. My most fluent languages are simply the ones I have used most recently.

I have found it interesting how "forgotten" language skills do come back precipitously, provided re-immersion for only a matter of days. I tend to think in the language that I'm most surrounded by, and I suspect it's the attainment of such inner narrative that most enables fluency. I feel very fortunate to have been immersed in multiple languages when I was young, because there is much evidence that the brain's acceptance of new language-sets is wired up in our early mental development.

I have known highly-intelligent and motivated people who have great difficulty learning new languages, and it seems that a monolingual upbringing has been the greatest hurdle. I suspect that there exists a related human trait involving cultural outlooks as well.

The two seem intertwined for me. I find that when I think exclusively in another language, I also discover my own thoughts take on a different outlook. It's similar to the way different styles of music have very different ways of expressing a common feeling. Sounds and grammar express culture as recognizeably, and with deep nuance, like rhythm and melody.

Gaining a new language may be greatly facilitated by approaching a new language or culture in a mentality of self-discovery- making a new language and culture your own. Children may not be cultural and linguistic savants, but they certainly do approach learning differently- embracing their new worlds as a matter of course, and far outperforming adults in structured language learning. I don't advocate learning languages as an "adult". Sitting in a classroom conjugating verbs seems ineffecient to me. Starting out like a baby, babbling for your life, and up through baby-talk (don't skip that part!) adolescence, formal speech, literature, etc. makes more sense to me. The full-sensory association and context that immersion in a new language provides can greatly accelerate learning. I think anyone considering adoptinng a new language should also consider at least a short period of total immersion in order to begin the journey most efficiently.

I don't have the time or inclination to count words for the Fraggle Scale, but it's an interesting proposition to estimate one's present language skills. It's also interesting to compare where you've been with your skills, if you have lived around a quite a bit like me, and gone through changes in your brain's linguistic operating system.

On an imaginary scale of 1-10, arbitrarily assigning 1 with complete ignorance of a language, 3 being conversational in social settings, 5 being conversational in professional/technical settings, and 10 being native and well-educated fluency. Here's where I think I am linguistically right now- It's a depressing tally if I allow myself to forget that getting it back is not so hard, provided a return to the fitting environment:

English - 10
Spanish - 6
Czech - 5
Russian -4
Arabic - 3
French - 3
German -2

[Fraggle Rocker]

I have found it interesting how "forgotten" language skills do come back precipitously, provided re-immersion for only a matter of days.Indeed. I had one year of German in college. "Scientific" German at that, useful stuff like, "The scientist heated the flask of acid with his Bunsen burner." Ten years later I found myself picking up a BMW motorcycle at the factory in München, and within a couple of hours I was speaking everything I knew and picking up new words quickly.I feel very fortunate to have been immersed in multiple languages when I was young, because there is much evidence that the brain's acceptance of new language-sets is wired up in our early mental development.I think there is also evidence suggesting that simply learning one additional language during childhood--whether at home or in class--keeps the brain in tune and makes learning the third one easier even if it happens in adulthood.I have known highly-intelligent and motivated people who have great difficulty learning new languages, and it seems that a monolingual upbringing has been the greatest hurdle.My mother was raised speaking Bohemian (Czech as we call it now) in the Chicago ghetto. But in my day it was thought to be a disadvantage to be raised bilingually so she and her friends and relatives didn't even speak it around me. Fortunately they had done that when I was too small to talk back, thinking it wouldn't do any "harm," and the synapses for those foreign phonemes never atrophied. I may be the only American who can pronounce Dvorak correctly. :) I was lucky that in Arizona in the 1950s Spanish was a required class in the 7th grade, but I do regret losing the advantage of learning a second language from birth.The two seem intertwined for me. I find that when I think exclusively in another language, I also discover my own thoughts take on a different outlook.Unless you're a musician, sculptor, etc., the majority of your thinking is done in words. Our thoughts are limited by the limitations of our language. Chinese is not limited by the Stone Age paradigm of parts of speech, much less inflection. It only has nouns and verbs and relationships are expressed logically. I suspect that's why Chinese people are so adaptable.Sitting in a classroom conjugating verbs seems ineffecient to me.Then you really should study Chinese. :)I don't have the time or inclination to count words for the Fraggle Scale, but it's an interesting proposition to estimate one's present language skills.It's not hard using a logarithmic scale. If you have a high school education you know 10,000-20,000 words. A college education generally doubles that. High school classes give you 2,000 - 5,000, more if you're precocious. Again, college classes will double that. People like Winston Churchill are up around 70,000.

Admittedly my scale does not adjust for lack of practice. I don't think it matters since as we both learned you can reattain your maximum level of fluency rather quickly and easily.

[Echo3Romeo]

3.

English is my first.

Fluent in "American" Spanish, with no discernible accent (I grew up on the New Mexico side of El Paso).

Pretty good Korean thanks to some years stationed in South Korea at the UN garrison there. I can talk shit and throw out slang like I'm from the gutters of Texas Street in Pusan.

I developed conversational Arabic prior to my sojourns in Afghanistan and Iraq, although the hajis always made fun of me when I was over there, lol. (I would have too.) :)

Every time I've visited a foreign country, I've felt like a tool if I didn't know the local language. It is amazing how pleasant foreigners became when I addressed them in their native tongue before transitioning to English.

[Fraggle Rocker]

Fluent in "American" Spanish, with no discernible accentI was sitting in a Cuban restaurant in L.A. forty years ago with a Mexican-American friend, listening to the Cubans talk, all of whom at that time were first-generation immigrants. To my ears (then), Spanish was Spanish (non-Castilian anyway). I asked him whether Cubans and Mexicans can tell each other apart by accent. He said, "Well actually you picked an atypical example because there are some noticeable differences. But among many of the other Spanish-speaking nationalities they can be almost impossible to tell apart, especially well-educated people who avoid colloquialisms. But boy, no matter where they're from, they can sure pick us Americans out."Pretty good Korean thanks to some years stationed in South Korea at the UN garrison there. I can talk shit and throw out slang like I'm from the gutters of Texas Street in Pusan.Most people consider that an insult to their language. They're just too polite to tell you so until they get to know you better.

I was on the subway one night when some kid struck up a conversation with the Indian man across across the aisle. He said he had picked up some Hindi from his friends in college, and he started "talking some shit." All the Indians within earshot got really uncomfortable and were squirming and giving each other sidelong glances. Eventually he noticed. I said, "There's only one Indian word that you need to know: Namaste." They all immediately relaxed and smiled, bowed slightly, and said "Namaste" in unison. A light went on in his eyes. (Near as I can tell it has more connotative meaning than denotative, like "Shalom.")

[s0meguy]

Dutch ,English and German for me.

I can also speak French but not fluent and I never really used it.

Basically we're supposed to learn 4 languages at school: Dutch, English and 2 languages that we can choose depending on which ones the school offers. Mostly German and French. Officially schools are allowed to teach at least all European languages, Arabic , Turkish, Hebrew and Russian that I know of. At the highest possible 'level' of high school (we call it "middelbare school" or 'middle school' which is divided in several levels of difficulty or rather study intensity. It's designed so that people perceived to have higher than average learning capability/intelligence attend the higher levels) you have to learn those 4 languages plus latin. Whatever good that is.

I've had Spanish and Mandarin on my list of languages I want to learn for a while. I'm also interested in Arabic. I've quite a few of friends that speak that language plus I just like to learn languages.

[whitewolf]

Most people consider that an insult to their language. They're just too polite to tell you so until they get to know you better.

It's not really an insult on its own. When people say they picked up a bit of a language, it usually means they picked up some slang and curses, a sort of language they ought not use with strangers anyway. In addition, people are uncomfortable and at a loss for words when asked to speak their language merely for practice. Really, what would you say if someone came up to you and asked you to say something in English?

[whitewolf]

Basically we're supposed to learn 4 languages at school: Dutch, English and 2 languages that we can choose depending on which ones the school offers. Mostly German and French. Officially schools are allowed to teach at least all European languages, Arabic , Turkish, Hebrew and Russian that I know of. At the highest possible 'level' of high school (we call it "middelbare school" or 'middle school' which is divided in several levels of difficulty or rather study intensity. It's designed so that people perceived to have higher than average learning capability/intelligence attend the higher levels) you have to learn those 4 languages plus latin. Whatever good that is.

That's incredible. Is it confusing? In U.S. high schools, we're required to learn one foreign language and not all European languages are offered. In New York the language chosen for study is usually either Spanish or the language that matches the background from which the student comes.

Learning many languages is relatively easy; at least it should get easier with each language that is mastered. Grammar is similar in principle and many words migrated from language to language. If you know English, you can already comprehend some French, Latin, and even modern Russian.

[s0meguy]

That's incredible. Is it confusing?

It can be confusing when learning more than one language at the same time. But in usage no... and like I said. While all those languages are officially allowed to be taught at schools, like I said, at most schools you just get German and French. The schools in cities where there is a lot of ethnic diversity usually do allow much more languages.

[Scull]

English. Does Latin count?? I know a decent amount.

[Fraggle Rocker]

Really, what would you say if someone came up to you and asked you to say something in English?If they were totally unfamiliar with English and just wanted to know what it sounds like, I'd recite the lyrics to a familiar song like "Yesterday" or "Me and Bobby McGee." Or depending on my mood, the Preamble to the U.S. Constitution. ("We, the people...") If they actually wanted to learn a tiny bit of the language I would look around and describe something we could both see. "Three women are walking toward that large building with their dogs." The last thing I'd present to them is profanity.

It always bothered me when I walked across the border into Tijuana, the little Mexican kids would start cursing at me. They were innocent, those were the words the sailors taught them when they went down from the big Navy base in San Diego to get drunk and find prostitutes. (The drinking age is 21 in California and the only state in which prostitution is legal is Nevada.)English. Does Latin count?? I know a decent amount.Of course Latin counts! I counted Esperanto. :)

[Michael]

I put 1 because I can only fluently speak one language - and to top it off I grew up in a monolinguistic environment :(

That said, I studied Spanish, I can remember to count and say a few greetings. I studied Russian and I even thought I was pretty good at it, I visited Russia and I tried a couple phrases out and people seemed to know what I was saying :) BUT I worked with a Russian women who said OMG your Russian is very very bad Michael! She could hardly understand a word I said?!?!

Presently I am studying Japanese. I can speak a little and can get along in a conversation if someone is there to help me over the hurdles. I just started memorizing the next set of Chinese characters (kanji) I am on and that puts me a little over 1000 (meaning only). I actually find learning the kanji easier than memorizing the pronunciation of new words!?!

Someday in the long far off future I have a plan to make a website to learn the Chinese characters. I know there are many out there but what the hell. It'd be fun :)

[lucifers angel]

Cool new subforum addition! I was wondering if anyone would ever add something like this.

Despite my screenname, I am not fluent in Italiano. Working on that, slowly but surely.

I have an enormous amount of interest in linguistics, but my shifting priorities and moods sometimes make it difficult for me make headway in studying, as well as other things. :(

How many languages are you fluent in?

If bi-lingual (or more), how and/or why did you learn those languages?


And I'm pleased to say that I'm the first to post in this new subforum. Excellent!:o


i can speak 2 langauges english and welsh, i learnt welsh because i am welsh and english because that is the langauge i use every day because i now live in england

Ddeisyfa pawb acha sci - forums da ddiwrnod!!

[Fraggle Rocker]

I put 1 because I can only fluently speak one languageWe all have languages that we've studied and can use, even if we don't qualify as "fluent." That's why I posted my Powers of Three scale, so you can count those.And to top it off I grew up in a monolingual environment.Many of the people who post on Linguistics grew up in bi- or multilingual homes, but that's not common among the general population. In most large countries it's extremely unusual to grow up with two languages. America is cursed with a bullying nativist movement that actually discourages it. I've met many people whose Spanish-speaking parents refused to teach the language to them, hoping it would help them assimilate faster.That said, I studied Spanish, I can remember to count and say a few greetings.That gives you somewhere between 31 and 56 words and puts you between 3.0 and 3.5 on my scale.I studied Russian and I even thought I was pretty good at it, I visited Russia and I tried a couple phrases out and people seemed to know what I was saying :) BUT I worked with a Russian women who said OMG your Russian is very very bad Michael! She could hardly understand a word I said?Well that just means you haven't quite mastered Russian grammar or pronunciation, neither of which is not for the faint of heart. You apparently know several hundred words and you can use them in sentences, and that makes you a 5.Presently I am studying Japanese. I can speak a little and can get along in a conversation if someone is there to help me over the hurdles. I just started memorizing the next set of Chinese characters (kanji) I am on and that puts me a little over 1000 (meaning only). I actually find learning the kanji easier than memorizing the pronunciation of new words!That's interesting. I am between 5 and 6 in spoken Chinese but I only recognize a couple of hundred han zi and can probably only write a few dozen of them. I would think that Japanese pronunciation would be much easier to learn than Chinese.I can speak 2 langauges, English and Welsh, I learnt Welsh because I am Welsh and English because that is the langauge I use every day because I now live in England Ddeisyfa pawb acha sci - forums da ddiwrnod!Are you saying that you grew up speaking Welsh and only learned English later in life? I didn't realize that Welsh was the language of everyday life. It seems like in Ireland English is spoken most often and a lot of Irish people can't even speak Gaelic fluently--and Ireland isn't even part of the U.K.

[Echo3Romeo]

Most people consider that an insult to their language. They're just too polite to tell you so until they get to know you better.
Well, I fit in fine with the guys I worked and drank with (SK Army officers). I suppose that sort of lets you know why I did, though. Heh.

[Michael]

That's interesting. I am between 5 and 6 in spoken Chinese but I only recognize a couple of hundred han zi and can probably only write a few dozen of them. I would think that Japanese pronunciation would be much easier to learn than Chinese.OMG spoken Chinese is sooo difficult - I almost wonder if I am tone deaf because it's very difficult for me. Could you imagine Thai or Cantonese - geesh!

For all of my Chinese friends I get their Chinese name and work really hard to memorize it. I hate the English names they sometimes pick. I'd rather go for the real deal. It's always a two or three syllable word anyway. I used to date a Chinese girl Lok-won ... aka: Lorraine

I think the characters are fun to memorize (I use a story technique associated with each primitive/element). For now I am mainly just remembering the English meaning and I have to say it's pretty fun reading things in Japanese or to read a Chinese sign.

Michael

[wanneszinnig]

Dutch 10
English 8
French 8
Serbo-Croat 5
German 4
Russian 2

Long live languages!

[wanneszinnig]

the more languages you speak, the more interesting the world becomes!

to je to!

[s0meguy]

Dutch 10
English 8
French 8
Serbo-Croat 5
German 4
Russian 2

Long live languages!

There's more people here that speak Dutch than english? Find that a bit difficult to believe lol...

[Enmos]

There's more people here that speak Dutch than english? Find that a bit difficult to believe lol...

Believe what you want, the Dutch are taking over ! :D

[wanneszinnig]

There's more people here that speak Dutch than english? Find that a bit difficult to believe lol...

There are only +- 25 milion idiots like me that actually speak the language...so don't worry:)
Speaking the language has some advantages though: in Belgium you can order the best beer in the world :)

[Fraggle Rocker]

There's more people here that speak Dutch than english? Find that a bit difficult to believe lol...This is a problem in the logging. Presumably all of the Dutch speakers also know English so they should have checked English too. It would be difficult for them to participate if they don't also know English since virtually all of the posts on SciForums are in English. I've translated one that was in Spanish, someone else took one in French, and we had trouble with a guy spamming us in Turkish. But none of those were on the Linguistics board. A person who speaks Dutch but not English would be highly visible because his posts would probably be in Dutch. :)

As for ordering beer in Belgium, don't 95% of the people in Belgium also speak French, German or English--if not all three? Probably 100% for bartenders. In fact, don't the people in Vlanderland claim that the language they speak is Flemish, and not Dutch at all? :)

From our American perspective, it seems like all Europeans are bilingual. The old European joke:

What do you call a person who speaks three languages? -- "Trilingual"

What do you call a person who speaks two languages? -- "Bilingual"

What do you call a person who speaks one language? -- "American"

[wanneszinnig]

This is a problem in the logging. Presumably all of the Dutch speakers also know English so they should have checked English too. It would be difficult for them to participate if they don't also know English since virtually all of the posts on SciForums are in English. I've translated one that was in Spanish, someone else took one in French, and we had trouble with a guy spamming us in Turkish. But none of those were on the Linguistics board. A person who speaks Dutch but not English would be highly visible because his posts would probably be in Dutch. :)

As for ordering beer in Belgium, don't 95% of the people in Belgium also speak French, German or English--if not all three? Probably 100% for bartenders. In fact, don't the people in Vlanderland claim that the language they speak is Flemish, and not Dutch at all? :)

From our American perspective, it seems like all Europeans are bilingual. The old European joke:

What do you call a person who speaks three languages? -- "Trilingual"

What do you call a person who speaks two languages? -- "Bilingual"

What do you call a person who speaks one language? -- "American"

Lol...
Most of us indeed speak different languages. We start learning French (our 2nd official language) at the age of 9. At the age of 12 we add English. Most of us don't stop there and add another 2 or 3 languages at age 14.
At the end 90% of us are bilingual, 70% are trilingual and still a lot of people speak 4 or more languages.
About the Flemish in flanders: officialy our language is Dutch. Still Dutch in Holland and Dutch in Flanders has a total different accent. Compare it with the difference between American and Brittish English.
And about our beer: it realy is the best :)

[Fraggle Rocker]

About the Flemish in Flanders: officially our language is Dutch. Still Dutch in Holland and Dutch in Flanders has a total different accent. Compare it with the difference between American and British English.America and England have been defined as "two peoples divided by a common language." The technology of the last century has served as a subversive reunification movement. We see each other's movies, listen to each other's music, watch each other's TV shows. We're not changing our pronunciation very quickly--although I do sometimes hear Brits pronounce "schedule" as SKEH-jool instead of SHEH-dyool--but we're picking up each other's slang. We understand each other much better than we did when I was a kid, a mere half century ago. If a British student tells an American colleague that he intends to "knock up" his sister, he will not be shot. ("Come to her door" in England, "Make her pregnant" lin America.)And about our beer: it really is the best.Most beer is mouse urine. I like beer that makes me notice what I'm drinking, so I order stout ale and porter, which are almost exclusively the products of the British Isles, Australia and a few progressive breweries in America. Do you guys make that good stuff too, or are your breweries giant warrens of guinea pig cages with tiny funnels, like Budweiser and Coors? :)

[wanneszinnig]

America and England have been defined as "two peoples divided by a common language." The technology of the last century has served as a subversive reunification movement. We see each other's movies, listen to each other's music, watch each other's TV shows. We're not changing our pronunciation very quickly--although I do sometimes hear Brits pronounce "schedule" as SKEH-jool instead of SHEH-dyool--but we're picking up each other's slang. We understand each other much better than we did when I was a kid, a mere half century ago. If a British student tells an American colleague that he intends to "knock up" his sister, he will not be shot. ("Come to her door" in England, "Make her pregnant" lin America.)


Most beer is mouse urine. I like beer that makes me notice what I'm drinking, so I order stout ale and porter, which are almost exclusively the products of the British Isles, Australia and a few progressive breweries in America. Do you guys make that good stuff too, or are your breweries giant warrens of guinea pig cages with tiny funnels, like Budweiser and Coors? :)


Still you can compare the differences between Brittish and American English with the differnces between Dutch in Holland and Dutch in Belgium. I guess Someguy is from Holland, so he'l probably admit.


Man, all the beers you have been drinking so far are crap..I am quiet sure.
I don't know how easy you can get imported beers...but if you can let me know and I'll tell you the difference between ordenary piss and heavens piss :cool:
..Oh and Heineken is a non-Belgian crap beer!

[shichimenshyo]

I am learning japanese

[wanneszinnig]

Arigato Osaimas!! :)

[s0meguy]

Is Japanese similar to Mandarin or Cantonese? I heard people say that Cantonese is more difficult to learn than Mandarin, is this true? I'd like to learn an Asian language but don't know which I should go for.

[shichimenshyo]

Japanese has the most confusing writing system( in my opinion), but i dont believe that it is that similar to mandarin. dotashite mashite

[wanneszinnig]

Is Japanese similar to Mandarin or Cantonese? I heard people say that Cantonese is more difficult to learn than Mandarin, is this true? I'd like to learn an Asian language but don't know which I should go for.

I have been in Japan and it totaly ddn't souned simillar to a Chinese language.
Knowng Japanese is cool though!

[Fraggle Rocker]

Man, all the beers you have been drinking so far are crap..I am quiet sure. I don't know how easy you can get imported beers.It's easy to get imported beer in America. I usually like "dark" beers okay. Beck's and St. Pauli Girl dark from Germany, Bohemia and Dos XX negra from Mexico, etc. And I like stout, Foster's from Australia and there are several good stouts made in America. Oddly I don't like Guinness stout from Ireland and that is world famous; it tastes kind of sissy to me. I like Porter too. I don't even mind bock beer. I just don't like regular lager, that's what most Americans like. I think if you gave them a glass of ice cold hamster weewee they wouldn't know the difference. Really good beer does not have to be served cold.Is Japanese similar to Mandarin or Cantonese?Chinese and Japanese are not related, or if they are you have to go back tens of thousands of years to find the common ancestor. Many linguists think Japanese is part of the Mongolic superfamily, with Korean, Mongolian, and the Turkic, Ural-Altaic and Finno-Ugric families. That includes a huge swath of languages from eastern Europe (including Hungarian) to the eastern edge of Asia and covers most of the southern ex-Soviet republics except Tajikistan. The Chinese languages are in a very small family with Tibetan and some minor languages to the southeast.

However, Chinese Buddhist monks brought their culture to Japan around 1,500 years ago, and whenever that happens a lot of the vocabulary for new unfamiliar things and ideas comes with it. Japanese has an extensive vocabulary of words it borrowed from Chinese, just the way we have a huge stock of French words including everyday ones like very, use, beef, and question. If you know Chinese, learning Japanese can give you a weird sense of deja vu. They pronounce most of the words quite differently, due to 1,500 years of phonetic changes in both languages.I heard people say that Cantonese is more difficult to learn than Mandarin, is this true?As you surely know, the Chinese non-phonetic writing system unites all the Chinese languages in terms of vocabulary and syntax. They speak 99% of the same words in the identical sequence, they just pronounce them totally differently. So once you've learned any of the Chinese languages, all you have to do to speak another one is learn to pronounce every word totally differently. :) You've already got the grammar and vocabulary.

But yes, Kuangdong hua is much harder to speak than Beijing hua. It has (I think) eight tones instead of four. For speakers of non-tonal languages that is really difficult. The phonetics are more complicated in other ways: Mandarin syllables can only end in a vowel, N or NG. Cantonese syllables can end in a variety of consonants and they can start with NG. Shanghai hua is even harder, and every Chinese I know says Fujian hua is the hardest; it has twelve tones.

Americans refer to them all as dialects, but since they are absolutely not intercomprehensible, they are distinct languages. There are some dialects of Mandarin, such as Sichuan hua. It has six tones and there are some predictable phonetic shifts (they call it Shicuan for example), but with a little work Sichuan ren and Beijing ren can understand each other. Since we Westerners don't hear the tones the way Chinese do, I find it easier to understand Sichuan hua than Mandarin speakers do. I've surprised a few Sichuan people who thought I couldn't understand what they were saying.I'd like to learn an Asian language but don't know which I should go for.Depends on what you want to learn it for. If you have any practical purpose at all, your only choice is Mandarin. You don't need to learn Japanese or Korean to work with Japanese or Korean people. Bit if you want to be a scholar, then you have to decide which culture you're most interested in.

If you just want to enrich yourself, I would strongly recommend Chinese. It is a very powerful language that will break you free of the Stone Age paradigms of English: inflections, tense, number, gender, prepositions, etc. You'll learn to think in a more modern and more adaptable way in Chinese and you'll understand why their country is advancing so quickly despite the handicap of a repressive government with a schizophrenic economic system.Japanese has the most confusing writing system( in my opinion), but i dont believe that it is that similar to Mandarin. dotashite mashiteThe standard newspaper character set uses 2,000 han zi, or kanji as it's pronounced in Japanese. These are used for the important words in the sentence, the nouns and verbs. But Japanese has a phonetic alphabet of syllables that are used for connecting words, modifiers and inflections. It also has a second phonetic alphabet that is used for transcribing words borrowed from foreign languages, trademarks, etc. So you have to learn three parallel writing systems to read and write Japanese, two of which are phonetic and the third is borrowed from a totally unrelated language and is not phonetic at all.

A Chinese person can puzzle his way through much of the meaning of written Japanese since most of the main words are Chinese borrowings. A Japanese can read written Chinese at an elementary level. Chinese are expected to know 1,200 characters at the end of the fourth grade, so they probably know the 2,000 that the Japanese know after the fifth or sixth grade. A really well educated Chinese knows 5,000. A scholar might know ten thousand or even twenty thousand, but that gets into ancient writings which used characters that are not present in normal writing any more, not even sophisticated modern scholarly writing.

Koreans have a better phonetic alphabet, with each symbol representing one phoneme as in our Western alphabets. They use Chinese characters also, but not to the same extent as the Japanese. Mostly for names.

A well-educated scholar in Japan or Korea who specialized in classic studies will have learned as many Chinese characters as the equivalent level of education in China, and they can read ancient Chinese philosophy as well as their Chinese peers. This is similar to Western scholars being able to read Latin and/or ancient Greek, Indian scholars reading Sanskrit, pious Jews outside of Israel reading Hebrew, and pious Muslims in any country reading Arabic.

[Enmos]

What do you call a person who speaks one language? -- "American"

What about German ? ;)

[wanneszinnig]

Well all the beers you just named are piss...we are used to strong, tastefull beers.
I ll give you a list...I would be surprised if you could find them...but if so...let heaven piss on yr tongue:

Duvel (Blond, strong beer...8,5%)
Westmalle (Blond...8,5%)
Leffe
Stella (regular pint, 5%)
Rochefort (6, 8 and 10%..dark beer)

Well we have + 2000 sorts of beer..
Go to yr supermarket and check out what they have. Post it and I ll tell you what is good.One rule...never drink it ice-cold!! Beer being drunk ice-cold is no beer...it should be shilled.
Guiness is ok, but it has a very bitter taste. I am not a big fan either.

[s0meguy]

What about German ? ;)

Or French

[I-Am-Invisible]

What about German ? ;)

today many germans/swiss speak english aswell... the french and british are worse...

[Oli]

today many germans/swiss speak english aswell... the french and british are worse...

Nope, to the best of my knowledge the French are taught (certainly were when I was kid) English from 11 years old onwards.
Any monolinguistic tendencies in the French tend to be *cough* snobbery rather than inability. :D

We Brits though... pah, I'm ashamed when I go abroad of the "they're not really foreigners, just stupid, and they can understand me if I'm loud and slow enough when talking" attitude.

[Fraggle Rocker]

We Brits though... pah, I'm ashamed when I go abroad of the "they're not really foreigners, just stupid, and they can understand me if I'm loud and slow enough when talking" attitude.Americans do that too, to other Americans. Especially women, but men do it too.

"Why did you leave this like this?"

"Like what?"

"Like this!"

"I don't understand what you mean."

"L I K E - - T H I S - - ! ! !"

[keyfur]

Pedantically, Cantonese has ten tones. To switch from Cantonese to Putunghua is much more difficult than simply pronouncing words differently. Cantonese has many 'words' of its own, (incl. the characters) which do not appear in 'Mandarin'.

[Fraggle Rocker]

Pedantically, Cantonese has ten tones. To switch from Cantonese to Putunghua is much more difficult than simply pronouncing words differently.But it's even harder to go the other way. The four tones in Mandarin are real no-brainers: high, low, rising and falling. Americans can master them, even if we can never hope to sound like a native. For a Mandarin speaker to learn to differentiate among tones that are high, low and medium, rising low to medium and medium to high, etc., is a challenge. Not to mention, some of the tones in Guandong hua are differentiated by their length, which is not phonemic in Mandarin. I think the short ones end in glottal stops--another sound absent from Mandarin--which is variously transcribed as gwok, yip, etc. On the other hand, Mandarin uses Z and ZH as vowels, which are difficult for Cantonese, although they use M and NG as vowels.Cantonese has many 'words' of its own, (incl. the characters) which do not appear in 'Mandarin'.I think the Fenn Five Thousand, the standard set of pre-Communist hanzi, will service any of the languages of China. The written language has held the Chinese people together for a couple of thousand years. There are only a handful of important words in any of them that are incomprehensibly different to a scholar of another. Shanghai hua uses ala for the pronoun I instead of wo, ngo, nguai,etc. If you look up the characters they use to write a and la, they were just chosen for the phonetics. But that's remarkable and rare, and when they're not trying to stress the fact that a person is speaking Shanghai, they generally write it with the standard wo character. If you're talking about slang, then of course there are differences because slang is dialectal even within a single language.

I've been told--by a Chinese who regarded it as a possible urban legend--that during the war years when some American G.I.'s were stationed in China, the incidence of rape by soldiers was quite a bit higher in Shanghai than in other cities. The supposed reason is that "I don't want to," which is wo bu yao in Mandarin, is ala fu you in Shanghai hua. Spoken in normal candence and interpreted by a drunken foreigner, it sounds a little bit like "Ah luff you."

[keyfur]

Agreed on the 5000. I was thinking of the Cantonese "mow" (low rising) for 'negative have' and keoi (LR) for third person singular pronoun, as well as the pluralising suffix "dei" (low level).
Loved the Shanghai story.

[keyfur]

Incidentally, a propos one of your earlier posts, it is rare in English to use the compound verb "knock up" except in the very precise circumstances of "wake someone up by knocking on their door".

[Fraggle Rocker]

I was thinking of the Cantonese "mow" (low rising) for 'negative have.'My Chinese friends always assumed that mow is just the Kuangdong pronunciation of the mei in mei you, "not have." The word stands on its own in compounds with the meaning "don't have," as in mei chian de, "lack money (-ing)," i.e., "poor."

I remember the poem our Chinese teacher (who was from Fujian and an outsider to the rivalry) taught us:

Tian bu pa,
Di bu pa.
Zuei pa Tong ren
Shuo guan hua.

"I fear nothing in heaven or on earth
so much as the sound of a Cantonese speaking Mandarin."Incidentally, a propos one of your earlier posts, it is rare in English to use the compound verb "knock up" except in the very precise circumstances of "wake someone up by knocking on their door".On this side the compound also has only one meaning: "to impregnate," but it's considered vulgar.

From one round of the Washington Post's weekly word contest a few years back. Rules: to rewrite a well-known set of instructions in the style of a famous poet.

The warning on a liquor bottle, by Eminem:

"If you a knocked-up ho,
Don't drink no mo."

(I can't resist reposting my absolute favorite from that week.)

How to Do the Hokey Pokey
by William Shakespeare

O proud left foot, that ventures quick within
Then soon upon a backward journey lithe,
Anon, once more the gesture, then begin:
Command sinistral pedestal to writhe.
Commence thou then the fervid Hokey-Poke,
A mad gyration, hips in wanton swirl.
To spin! A wilde release from Heaven's yoke.
Blessed dervish! Surely canst thou go, girl.
The Hoke, the Poke—banish thou now thy doubt:
Verily, be this what 'tis all about.

[keyfur]

Yes, orally I'm sure your Chinese friends are right. However, it has its own ideogram (the 2 parallel bars removed from 'to have'). Further, looking at the verb "to be", Cantonese pronunciation and ideogram are far from the national language 'shr'.
I love the Shakespearian Hokey Cokey: thank you for that.
How many meanings can you think of for the syllable MAN, disregarding tone, in Mandarin and Cantonese??

[Fraggle Rocker]

Yes, orally I'm sure your Chinese friends are right. However, it has its own ideogram (the 2 parallel bars removed from 'to have').Are you saying that Mandarin mei and Cantonese mou have two different symbols?Further, looking at the verb "to be", Cantonese pronunciation and ideogram are far from the national language 'shr'.Yes, that stands out. I don't know if they write hai with the symbol for shi or if it's just a different word with a similar meaning. There's no way they could be the same word with phonetic shifts. Cantonese also don't use the Mandarin word chi for "eat," but they say set, which is Mandarin shi, one of many words for "food."

You must have learned the Yale transliteration system like I did. I thought it was superior for actually studying the pronunciation. In Pinyin, "be" is shi and it's shih in Wade-Giles.How many meanings can you think of for the syllable MAN, disregarding tone, in Mandarin and Cantonese??I don't really know any Cantonese. My Mandarin vocabulary is so small that I don't have two readings for every syllable. (And maybe not even one for all of them.) The only one I can think of is man fourth tone (I think), "slow down."

[keyfur]

1. Yes, your Mandarin mei is a negative prefix: Cantonese simply alters the positive verb form.
2. The Cantonese hai (to be) is indeed a totally different word and ideogram. You are right, too, about the verb 'to eat'.
3. I never learned Mandarin formally. I was an interpreter in Cantonese many years ago and learned the written and spoken languages using the Barnett-Chao romanisation system.
4. Sorry about the apparent trick question "man". It was one of my favourites for illustrating tonality.

Wherein lies your interest in the Middle Country?

[Fraggle Rocker]

Sorry about the apparent trick question "man". It was one of my favourites for illustrating tonality.Long before I studied Chinese, I was told a story that I haven't verified. A regional administrator rose to power during wartime and was not well educated. He surrounded himself with scholars to help him finish his education. One made a reference to the tonality of Chinese and the ruler said, "What? I have never heard of such a thing. Give me an example demonstrating this tonality if you expect me to believe you." The scholar crafted a four-word sentence using the same syllable in all four tones, meaning something like, "Whatever Your Grace requires of me."

I think the example betrays its apocryphal nature. If I'm not mistaken, ancient Han had six tones, as are preserved in some regional dialects of Mandarin like Sichuan hua.Wherein lies your interest in the Middle Country?I always wanted to study a non-Indo-European language. Books on Hebrew were easy enough to find in the 1950s, but in a cowboy town I couldn't find any live speakers. Eventually I moved to L.A. and after finishing college and getting a job that had nothing to do with any language except Cobol, I discovered that the nearby community college offered classes in Mandarin. A year later I found myself with a Chinese girlfriend and I prevailed upon her to speak Mandarin at home even though for her it was like living with a three-year-old. (Turns out it was a good match emotionally but that's another story.)

I think I made it to about four and a half eventually, which is not bad. What little I know, I am completely fluent in. I think in kiddie-Chinese and my pronunciation is pretty good. Although she was from Sichuan and I still have traces of a Sichuan accent. They get the tones right, but they reverse S C Z with SH CH ZH. Final NG after certain vowels becomes N and final N becomes a nazalised vowel like French or Portuguese.

[temur]

If you just want to enrich yourself, I would strongly recommend Chinese. It is a very powerful language that will break you free of the Stone Age paradigms of English: inflections, tense, number, gender, prepositions, etc. You'll learn to think in a more modern and more adaptable way in Chinese and you'll understand why their country is advancing so quickly despite the handicap of a repressive government with a schizophrenic economic system.

Can you create an artificial language that is based on the word roots that modern English uses and with Chinese grammar? That would be easy to learn, adaptable and modern.

[Sangamon]

New kid on the block here


I'm fluent in English & Dutch, I can have a not-too-technical conversation in French and if I'm lost in Germany or Spain I will be able to talk to the locals and get home.

Then there's bits and pieces of Thai, Swedish, Portugese and Mandarin floating around in my head, but none of those are of much use outside of a bar :)

[Fraggle Rocker]

Can you create an artificial language that is based on the word roots that modern English uses and with Chinese grammar? That would be easy to learn, adaptable and modern.I think, easy. Brit speech word short, China speech word short. I speak China speech use Brit word, you understand.

I can't always come up with a one-syllable English word to match a one-morpheme Chinese "word," but the opposite is also true so it balances out. The simplified grammar would need to be adapted carefully. There are only nouns and verbs. "Short" is a verb: "to be short." When I say "short man" it is really "being-short man," with no participial suffix since Chinese has no inflections. The meaning is obvious from the word order, which is very rigid in Chinese. Sometimes a sentence gets so complicated that the relationships between the words are not obvious. In that case the particle de is inserted strictly as a parsing aid, indicating that the previous phrase or clause is complete and is a modifier of the following word, phrase or clause.

This is not so necessary in writing, where the 1,600 phonetically possible syllables of spoken Chinese explode into several thousand distinct homonymic morphemes and the possibility of misunderstaning is greatly reduced.

This exercise would be much easier for speakers of English than many other languages. We are not used to heavy use of inflections, our syntax is fairly similiar, and we build new words by shoving old ones together just like they do. We'd have to drop the notions of tense and number, and discover that they're really not as useful or necessary as we think. It would be great to dump our useless articles, and to replace our pathetic stock of Stone-Age prepositions with verbs that describe relationships far more precisely.

[Myles]

I spoke Irish at school until the age of twelve. It is now very rusty as I have not used it since moving to the UK some fifty years ago. I taught myself German using a book , listening to German radio stations and reading German magazines. I finally became fluent by dating German girls in an International club. Later, I taught computer programming in Germany for six months. Most of my students knew very little English so I inproved my knowledge of their language quickly, socialising after classes.

I taught myself French in much the same way. I can also manage enough Spanish to get by.
If you wish to get past the "can you tell me the way to the station" stage and communicate using everyday expressions and idioms, I suggest reading novels and paying close attention to the dialogue. Try not to use a dictionary. You will find that you will learn expressions in their proper context unlike those poor souls who rely wholly on a dictionary, thereby producing quaint expressions. Remember, translations are seldom exact; you must learn to convey meaning rather that a word-for-word version of what you would say in your own language,
I hope this helps.

Myles

[cosmictraveler]

I speak english, American english that is. I still am trying to learn it and keep

trying everyday.

[pjdude1219]

i speak english but i would like to learn german, polish, romanian, and hungarian.

[kaneda]

I speak some French. Well, I should since I live in France but apart from bills almost all my French is bonjour, merci, au revoir, used in shops. Only once in a blue moon do I need more.

I have travelled around the world mainly on my own and managed in dozens of countries where English is not the first language, or in places where it is hardly spoken at all. You point, hold fingers up, use common-sense, etc. It isn't hard. Ideally I'd speak 20 or more languages but I find what little I learn, I lose by not using them.

I remembered reading of a man who was fluent in 66 languages and could get by in quite a few more. He couldn't understand why everyone else wasn't the same since he found languages easy. But that was a quirk in his brain. He never found a cure for cancer or anything. He was just ordinary outside his language skills.

[s0meguy]

I was thinking of doing an EF (ef.com) course and go to different countries and learn Spanish and Chinese. Theres other options or additions that I'm looking at: French for instance. It's an official language in 41 countries but I'm not really sure what I'd use it for, since almost everyone these days speaks either English, Chinese or Spanish. Not really sure about the last one, but its just a language I'm interested in. Thoughts?

[Fraggle Rocker]

Hindi and Bengali also have huge numbers of speakers. Arabic, Japanese and Portuguese are also in the top ten. I'm not sure which languages are #9 and 10 these days. German was hanging in there for a while.

I would recommend learning languages that are as unrelated as possible, because this will introduce you to vastly new ways of thinking. Assuming you're a native speaker of English, why not pass up the other Indo-European languages? That excludes everything mentioned so far except Chinese, Japanese and Arabic. You could choose Hebrew instead of its cousin Arabic because it's easy to find a teacher in any country with a large Jewish community. Vietnamese, Thai, Tagalog and Korean come to mind. Also the family that includes the major non-Indo-European languages of Europe: Turkish, Hungarian, Finnish and Estonian. Or something offbeat that's in the news like Georgian, or one of the myriad African languages.

If your goal is to be able to travel and talk to people everywhere you go, then that's different. But if you're interested in expanding your mind, I recommend that you consider not selecting languages more-or-less closely related to English like Spanish, French, Gaelic, Greek, Russian, Farsi, Hindi, Armenian, etc.

If you chose Arabic, Japanese and Xhosa, you'd have your life's work cut out for you. ^_^

[USS Exeter]

For me Spainish and English (my strongest) and German.

[Sock Puppy]

There's no vote option for "zero".

[s0meguy]

If your goal is to be able to travel and talk to people everywhere you go, then that's different. But if you're interested in expanding your mind, I recommend that you consider not selecting languages more-or-less closely related to English like Spanish, French, Gaelic, Greek, Russian, Farsi, Hindi, Armenian, etc.

If you chose Arabic, Japanese and Xhosa, you'd have your life's work cut out for you. ^_^

Well thats kind of my goal (being able to talk where ever I travel, at least, at the places I like to travel to, which is also why I'm mostly interested in the big languages. I'm 20 years old, and I think that learning more languages could be a good investment in the future, for getting a good job, with all the globalism and all. Plus I just like learning to understand languages). And my native language is Dutch.

But expanding my mind is also a good thing. I understand how languages like Japanese and Arabic are vastly different from the languages that I understand currently (Dutch, English, German and French somewhat) but besides understanding a language that has different rules, could you elaborate more on the "expanding your mind" thing?

[Fraggle Rocker]

I understand how languages like Japanese and Arabic are vastly different from the languages that I understand currently (Dutch, English, German and French somewhat) but besides understanding a language that has different rules, could you elaborate more on the "expanding your mind" thing?Sure. I'll give you three examples from one language: Chinese.

1. Tone is phonemic. You can't use tone of voice to indicate how you feel. You have to express it in words.

2. There are no inflections. No gender, number, case, tense, mode, etc. "Dog eat fish." If it's really necessary to make it clear that there was one dog, three fish, and this took place yesterday, you say, "Yesterday one dog eat three fish." If it's clear from context you don't need the extra words: a general statement that dogs like to eat fish if it's available, or my dog eats fish every chance he gets, or if you leave your fishbowl on my coffee table when we come back from the movies your fish will be gone.

3. There are no prepositions. No vague words like "in," "at" and "for," with so many meanings that they are now essentially meaningless. Chinese has only nouns and verbs, so you have thousands of verbs to choose from to help you express relationships very precisely. Instead of "the apple is in the box," you say, "apple occupy box interior." In the last century we began struggling to free ourselves from our Stone Age paradigm of prepositions by inventing a new kind of grammatical construction, as seen in a steady stream of unorthodox compounds like user-friendly, carbon-neutral and labor-intensive. The Chinese have had that facility for thousands of years.

(Okay, in addition to nouns and verbs Chinese also has a couple of particles, which are nothing more than placeholders to help you parse a complicated sentence.)

[oreodont]

I did most of my schooling in French Catholic schools...but university in English (and a few university courses in German with English permitted for exams and papers).

French and English are interchangeable for me. I can also get by in German and get by 'well' in German after a few days emerged in the language. I studied Russian for two years and can read it if a dictionary is handy but can no longer follow a movie or program in Russian. I also studied Latin for 4 years and ancient Greek for 1 year in school. Latin was my favorite subject in school.

The sum total of my knowledge of non Western languages is zero.

[Orleander]

I'm only fluent in English. But I can speak enough Spanish, Portugese, Japanese, German, and Chinese to get a free drink from a man who likes to hear how handsome he is .;)

[Zyxoas]

So languages with prepositions are primitive? Good thing the Bantu languages (like the isiXhosa you mentioned in an earlier post) don't have prepositions...

In my native Sesotho, which is closely related to isiXhosa (Bantu S branch), there are (by Doke & Mofokeng's analysis) 12 parts of speech, none of which include any "small words" (such as prepositions and particles). Generally, words are constructed from roots, and their meanings and relationships are indicated by prefixes and suffixes. Word order tends to be quite free, and this is further facilitated by the fact that verbs, qualificatives (adjectives, relatives, enumeratives, and possessive nouns and adjectives), copulatives, and pronouns describing a noun agree with it using a "concord" prefix.

Tone is phonemic, and emphasis is achieved by usually changing word order, putting the most important element first. Some verb tenses are constructed by changing some of the tones of the inflected verb. There are up to 5 basic tenses, instead of English's 2. The verb conjugation system is so ridiculously complicated it would make you cry...

There are 17 noun classes (the Bantu group as a whole has 25, if one includes classes 1a and 2a, though no modern language has retained all the classes) and most classes have their own unique sets of concords. Colours and a few other descriptive words are adjectives while most others are relatives (the difference essentially lies in the use of concords). There are 3 demonstrative pronoun positions (the Bantu norm is 4). Ideophones are an integral part of the language (not simply isolated utterances) and have their own syntax. Conjunctives (basically like English conjunctions when used between sentenses or clauses) may be formed from special verbs.

Learning about strange languages certainly does expand one's mind. I tried learning 'Arabic a while ago but it didn't work since I was basically trying to do it from the Qur'an (like leaning English from Shakespear). I may still continue trying to learn it, as well as (written) Chinese. I would also like to learn more about the major Khoisan language Khoekhoegowab (aka Nama or Hottentot) but there seems to be very few resources available for it (which makes me wonder how the Namibian education department manages to teach the language in school as a first language).

[Fraggle Rocker]

So languages with prepositions are primitive?No, sorry if that's the impression I gave. I think any "part of speech" that gives you a small number of words to express a small number of concepts, without any way of creating new ones, is going to seem primitive after the next Paradigm Shift. Prepositions in the Indo-European languages have gone through the Neolithic Revolution, the Dawn of Civilization, the Industrial Revolution, and are now entering the Post-Industrial Era or Information Age. There are only a couple of dozen of them in any of our languages, and unlike nouns, verbs, adjectives and adverbs, there is no convenient mechanism for creating or borrowing new ones. (We have doggedly managed to create a small handful of new ones over the centuries, such as "beyond," "during" and "without.") In, on, with, at, by, to, for, over, under... Most of them obviously originally denoted physical relationships like relative location, but as life became more complicated they were pressed into service for a host of new meanings. In time, in love, in English, in disagreement, in the lead... these are all different relationships, poorly expressed by the same word. It would be difficult for me to explain to a foreign student the difference between arriving at a meeting "in time" and "on time," despite the fact that I sense and understand that difference.

Prepositions in English are a handicap. So are verb tenses and noun cases (in languages that decline nouns like German, Russian, Greek and Romanian) because there are so few of them. Inflections generally stifle the development of a language by not being easily adaptable to a new structure of the external world. That was the problem with Esperanto. It has what seemed 140 years ago like a generous assortment of suffixes and prefixes that "allow you to create any word you need," but it's rather awkward in a post-industrial society. The fact is downright embarrassing today that it has a suffix denoting female, but not male. Titles of occupations and such are assumed to be male.I tried learning Arabic a while ago but it didn't work since I was basically trying to do it from the Qur'an (like leaning English from Shakespeare).That seems to be a very common way to teach Arabic.I would also like to learn more about the major Khoisan language Khoekhoegowab (aka Nama or Hottentot) but there seems to be very few resources available for it (which makes me wonder how the Namibian education department manages to teach the language in school as a first language).Do they emphasize writing in the early school grades? Perhaps not!

[Zyxoas]

What do you mean "do they emphasis writing in the early school grades?" I've seen on the internet final Khoekhoegowab papers, meaning that the children learn it all through their school careers.

Are you saying that closed word classes are outdated? But I believe that every language has those. The only difference in Sesotho between the closed adjective and enumerative classes and the open relative classes is that the three sets use different concords (they are all qualificatives, distinguished only by morphology). I honestly can't think of any Sesotho words with similar problems as you cited for "in," as the language is aglutinative (while English is analytic) thus there are no "little words" since their functions are provided by affixes with definite meanings.

I don't think you can get rid of "little words" in an analytic language, since they provide the same function as affixes in a more synthetic language.

I didn't mean I was being taught Arabic from the Qur'an, I meant that I was teaching it to myself...

Please elaborate on your concerns about inflection (in general, not just crazy IE declension). Does Finnish have the same limitation? What do you think of re-anima-t-ion and thousands of other words constructed from Greek, Latin, and Germanic affixes, similar to inflection (or do you strictly mean I pray/he prayS/I prayED/etc)?

[Fraggle Rocker]

What do you mean "do they emphasis writing in the early school grades?" I've seen on the internet final Khoekhoegowab papers, meaning that the children learn it all through their school careers.You wondered how they teach the written language in school, since you didn't find a lot of written instructional materials. How exactly do they teach it then? There must be some textbooks available somewhere.Are you saying that closed word classes are outdated?Some extremely small closed classes reflect logical abstraction and are, therefore, probably as timeless as arithmetic. E.g., personal pronouns: One would suppose that I, you and he will be the only people we can talk about for all eternity, no matter where society's structure and technology take us. (Chinese dispensed with the he/she/it variants of the third person pronoun in ancient times.) But larger closed classes, such as prepositions, which attempt to catalog all possible types of relationships, are doomed to obsolescence. A farming society living in permanent villages is going to have a lot more types of relationships between nouns and activities to describe than nomadic hunter-gatherers. People whose lives are full of engineered technology will have even more, and 21st century humans who live a large part of our lives in a virtual universe will have still more. I honestly can't think of any Sesotho words with similar problems as you cited for "in," as the language is agglutinative (while English is analytic) thus there are no "little words" since their functions are provided by affixes with definite meanings.I agree that the class of prepositions would be useful instead of limiting if it were not closed. The Indo-European languages have a taboo against coining new prepositions.

However, after studying Chinese I have the same criticism of a language structure with a limited set of classes. Nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, conjunctions, prepositions, numbers... this is starting to look very much like the structure of computer programming languages. They become obsolete very quickly as the hardware engineers hand new domains over to the software engineers and the limitations of their languages prevent them from developing high-quality software efficiently. Programming languages reflect the structure of the universe they were built for, and human languages do the same thing.

China, the world's oldest continuous civilization and possibly the world's oldest continuous society going back to the Neolithic Era, has had to adapt to Paradigm Shifts in the structure of its universe. Its solution has been to simplify its language structure, making it more adaptable. It only has two parts of speech, each of which are expandable without limit, no inflections, and it has lost paradigms that once seemed like sensible representations of reality such as singular/plural and past/present/future.I don't think you can get rid of "little words" in an analytic language, since they provide the same function as affixes in a more synthetic language.Chinese has done an admirable job. The Wikipedia article on analytic languages goes to great lengths to define Chinese particles. But in practiceThere are only three or four of them; di for possessive and dei for participial are merged into de in standard Mandarin Their practical purpose is to parse spoken sentences They can be omitted when the meaning is clear without them, and often are in writing where homonyms have distinct charactersPlease elaborate on your concerns about inflection (in general, not just crazy IE declension). Does Finnish have the same limitation? What do you think of re-anima-t-ion and thousands of other words constructed from Greek, Latin, and Germanic affixes, similar to inflection (or do you strictly mean I pray/he prayS/I prayED/etc)?I don't know anything about Finnish. My knowledge of inflection in non-Indo-European languages is limited to a cursory view of Japanese and Hebrew. The Japanese language is full of ritual and formality, and a Zen master would surely insist that struggling to express oneself in Japanese builds character. :) Inflection builds a type of complexity into a language that is recursive: it's about the language itself rather than about its use as a technology for communication. If it's difficult to create new prepositions to describe an increasingly rich and complex world, how difficult is it to create new inflections?

I am not as critical of English's word-building engine, which includes tools borrowed from other languages, because it is not a closed paradigm. We find Germanic, Greek and Latin elements like "un-," "ize" and "-able" useful, so we use them. (Sometimes all at the same time as in "unrealizable," a word that would frustrate a traditional etymologist.) As we need more, we invent them or find them. In America we already use Russian "-nik" and Spanish "-ito." "E-", our own prefix meaning "online," is well established.

[Frud11]

These symbols (phonemes and morphemes) in english, that are called "tack-ons", are the same thing Latin did, to absorb other languages.

They're also sememes, and memes, or they mean something basic. Like e- does.

The 21st century will be the age of the image, and I don't mean just CGI.

[Elucinatus]

I grew up in a Mexican neighboorhood. Never learned Spanish as a kid, never wanted to. I never really made an effort to succeed in Spanish class, and eventually dropped it as a High School course.

I would however, have liked to taken Latin, but our shitty school didn't offer it. In the future I plan on learning some 'Gammon', which is an 'under the table' language used by travelling Irish gypsies.

[tim840]

I'm only fluent in one language, English. I've been working on Chinese for three or so years now, but I'm far from fluent. I speak it pretty well, but when it comes to understanding others speaking it I'm terrible. Too many homophones. And confusing grammar (like verbs or entire sentences being used as adjectives).

[Fraggle Rocker]

I grew up in a Mexican neighboorhood. Never learned Spanish as a kid, never wanted to. I never really made an effort to succeed in Spanish class, and eventually dropped it as a High School course.That's becoming quite common. It's fashionable now in L.A. for children of Latino immigrants not to know Spanish. A few years ago the DJs on the leading Latin music radio station had to switch to announcing in English. And the Rednecks worry that Mexican immigrants are going to destroy our culture!

Still it's unfortunate. Since most of the thoughts of most people are formed in words, I agree with the scholars who insist that our thoughts are shaped by our language. Knowing a second language not only gives you a second way of thinking, but it also allows you to analyze your thoughts in both language by an external standard, something most people can't do. I was rather inarticulate in English and struggled to express myself until I started to study Spanish.I would however, have liked to taken Latin, but our shitty school didn't offer it.When you start studying Latin you will kick yourself in the butt for not learning Spanish when you had the chance. 3/4 of the vocabulary would be at least vaguely familiar, and the complex paradigms of verb conjugation that bewilder most anglophones would make intuitive sense.In the future I plan on learning some 'Gammon', which is an 'under the table' language used by travelling Irish gypsies.Actually "Irish Gypsies" is a misnomer. The Irish Travellers, as far as we can tell from their DNA and culture, are an Irish people, not members of the Indic people who migrated west to Byzantium a thousand years ago. Many similarities between the Traveller and Gypsy lifestyle, as well as the way they're treated by the surrounding populations, reinforce the erroneous notion that they're related.

The language of the Travellers is widely known as Shelta, and strictly speaking it is not a language at all, but a "cant" or "secret argot" developed artificially to prevent outsiders from understanding them. Its vocabulary is predominantly Irish Gaelic with borrowings from English and Rom (the language of the true Gypsies), with a lot of deliberate fanciful twists like swapping letters and turning words backwards. But the structure and syntax of the language is based on English.

The origin of Shelta goes back at least 300 years and possibly earlier. The modern form of Shelta has been heavily hybridized with English and the name "Gammon" may be used to distinguish it from its predecessor which was purely Celtic in vocabulary if not structure.

The opening line of The Lord's Prayer for comparison:Irish: Ár n-Athair atá ar neamh, go naofar d'ainm. Shelta: Mwilsha's Gater, swart a manyath, Manyi graw a kradji dilsha's manik. Modern Traveller cant or "Gammon": Our Gathra, who cradgies in the manyak-norch, we turry kerrath about your moniker. English: Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.There is currently a critically acclaimed TV show on fX, a U.S. cable channel, called "The Riches," about a Traveller family who are living a high life in Louisiana after stealing the identities of a dead family. It's well researched and uncompromising in its portrayal of Traveller culture and their interaction with "Buffers," which is what they call us. It's a typical American sitcom with plenty of laughs but frequent sojourns into dramatic situations and social commentary. Oddly enough the stars are British: Eddie Izzard and Minnie Driver, doing perfect American Southern accents (the only American dialect most British actors can get halfway right).

There are several thousand Travellers in the U.S., around 25,000 in Ireland, and two or three hundred thousand in the U.K.

One Shelta word that has become an everyday word in British English is "bloke" for "guy." Shelta "moniker" for "name" was common slang in the U.S. early in the last century. Both of these words have fairly well-established origins in Irish.

[Tyler]

English, French, Chinese. I can read and mildly understand the other romantic languages to some degree.

[Tyler]

Fraggle I like your ranking system, but it's worth making it more clear.

In French my reading is about a 7.5 - 8 while my speaking is about a 6. In Chinese my reading is about a 6.5 while my speaking is about a 7 and my listening slightly above that. In Spanish and Italian I'm much closer to a 5.5 or so. In Cantonese my speaking is non-existant but listening is about a 5.5 as well.

[Tyler]

Also, Fraggle, I think fluency is more fluid than you may have indicated.

I'm not quite sure how many hanzi you know, but it may be more than I do. Of course, my speaking and listening far exceed my reading and writing. Yet when I speak Chinese with someone I am never even close to thinking in English. My mind completely switches to Chinese mode the minute someone speaks the language around me.

This is probably due to living in the environment and learning in a native setting.

[Fraggle Rocker]

Also, Fraggle, I think fluency is more fluid than you may have indicated.Of course. But I thought it was time somebody came up with a simple scale so I invented my own. It's still the only one I've seen. I think the advantage is being logarithmic. Learning 500 words when you only know a thousand vastly improves your mastery of the language, but learning 500 words when you're already getting along pretty well in a language doesn't have quite the same impact.I'm not quite sure how many hanzi you know, but it may be more than I do.I don't think I ever knew 500 and probably less than half of that now since I don't keep in practice.Of course, my speaking and listening far exceed my reading and writing.I'm only concentrating on oral/aural fluency. Some languages are easier to understand in print than spoken (French, Danish) while others are the opposite (Chinese). In languages that use the Roman alphabet I'd suppose that understanding writing is easiest and understanding speech is hardest. Making yourself understood in speech and writing are in the middle but the order varies from one language to the next. Some languages are very challenging phonetically (Czech) and it's difficult for people to figure out what you're trying to say. Others come at you in overdrive (Italian) and you can't parse the sentences.Yet when I speak Chinese with someone I am never even close to thinking in English. My mind completely switches to Chinese mode the minute someone speaks the language around me.That's a milestone for anyone in any language. Psychologists say the giveaway is whether you or anyone else ever speaks the language in your dreams. Although I don't find that very helpful since the only other language I've ever heard in a dream was Portuguese. I've had very few opportunities to converse in it so I can't believe I can think in it. I know I can think in Spanish, Esperanto and Chinese, although my thoughts are more limited than in English.This is probably due to living in the environment and learning in a native setting.That helps. The biggest factor is age. The younger you learn your second language, the quicker you'll attain both fluency and thinking. The second biggest factor is already knowing a second language; the third is much easier even if it's totally unrelated. Learning a second language as a child makes it easier to learn a third, even decades later.

[Tyler]

Of course the more you learn the easier it is to learn vocabulary. I had to work hard to add ten words a day in Chinese when I first came here. Now that can be achieved with almost no effort.

As for hanzi, I can communicate fully through text message - which means my writing and recognition is well over 500 characters. I would probably guess I can accurately read 1000 characters on any given day. But free-hand writing I'd have to double-check a bunch of those before I'd write them correctly.

I do dream in Chinese. The weirdest dreams I have are where my friends from back home speak Chinese! That really freaks me out.

And I did learn French starting from a young age, though I'm not fluent by any means. I know that is still a helping factor.

[Aquaria89]

I am only fluent in English(US). I took Spanish in high school and middle school. I know the basics.

[Tyler]

I've been trying to answer whether or not I think in Chinese. When I spend a few hours with a friend who can't speak English I think I hit that groove, but I'm not sure. The problem is that as soon as I start thinking about whether or not I'm thinking in Chinese I revert to English. It throws my whole speaking off.

I think I do think in Chinese, but it produces these weird moments where I have no idea how to produce the thought my brain is attempting to push through. Maybe there's an underlayer of English there. Or maybe it's more like a very young child. I can find a way - very quickly - to do what I believe is express my thought, but I know it's not correct grammar or ideal vocabulary. Much like a child with their first language who often uses strange grammar and out-of-place vocabulary until they pick up the details.

But I do find it excruciatingly difficult to switch back and forth some times. If I spend one or two days speaking nothing but Chinese the first time I speak to someone in English feels like a total dream-like state. The other way around is easier because I'm used to switching from English to a second language (French and, for a time, Italian). But once my brain is fully in Chinese mode it's hard to flip back to English. Like when I was learning French I find myself forgetting English words. For the life of me I still can never remember how to say 'remparts' in English most of the time. There are certainly nouns (mostly historical or vegetable related) I know in Chinese but have no idea the English for.

[Rick]

English, Hindi, Sanskrit (fluent in writing, used to be able to communicate fluently years back!), Marwadi (can understand but cant speak ...)

Rick

[shedevilx]

three

[mrow]

English and French

[skaught]

I never noticed this thread before!
Using Fraggles scale.
English is my native language
German: 5 (300 words give or take)
Dutch: 4
Croatian: 3
Laotian: 2
Farsi: 2

The latter 3 I know mostly curses and insults. I had a friend from croatia once who taught me how to say some terrible things in his language. Then I would say them and he would laugh histerically at my accent.

I would love to learn russian. I don't know why, I'm just obsessed with that language. Also would really like tyo learn latin, sanskrit, and Hebrew. But thats another lifetime.

[LanguageLover]

Fluent:

English
Finnish
Swedish [Norwegian is understandable to a point since I speak Swedish.]
Icelandic

Okay:

Dutch
Russian

[Fraggle Rocker]

Norwegian is understandable to a point since I speak Swedish. . . . IcelandicIf you're fluent in Swedish, familiar with Icelandic, and you can understand Norwegian, then surely you can also understand Danish?

[ylaviva]

I currently speak 9, 3 fluently, 3 decently, 3 need work.

Hi! I might like to meet you someday.
I am a language freak, and my greatest pleasure in travelling comes from being exposed to the magic of a new sound system.
I have studied up to now about twenty modern languages and seven or eight ancient ones, although I am fluent in just a few and the rest are often dormient.
Anytime I experience a sense of loss or of failure in life I tackle a new language. This gives me real consolation. And associating that loss with this new acquisition re-establishes the balance and makes me come out a winner.
Would you like to go and improve Greek this Summer? or to learn Turkish?
Ciao
ylaviva

[Norsefire]

I speak English and Arabic fluently and a bit of French but I didn't count it because I only know a few phrases

[Randwolf]

2.57

[deathfix]

I voted '2' on the poll even though I'm much more fluent in English than my parents' native language. I grew up with English and a Nigerian language called Igbo being spoken in our house.

I also took a few crappy years of German in high school. I'm currently trying to build upon that by reading German stuff online. Speaking is definitely harder since I have nobody to practice with.

[Fraggle Rocker]

I voted '2' on the poll even though I'm much more fluent in English than my parents' native language. I grew up with English and a Nigerian language called Igbo being spoken in our house.Igbo: a language in the Niger-Congo family with about 30 million speakers, primarily in southeastern Nigeria. It is a tonal language like Chinese, and also has several phonemes that challenge the conventional paradigms of phonetics. It has a vast continuum of dialects that are said to be almost all mutually intelligible. However Chinua Achebe, the famous author who is a native speaker, denounces the current "standardized" dialects as artifacts of the colonial era, and once gave a speech in the Onitsha dialect, which half the people in the audience could not understand.I also took a few crappy years of German in high school. I'm currently trying to build upon that by reading German stuff online. Speaking is definitely harder since I have nobody to practice with.Talking to yourself helps. I do it all the time. I didn't meet a Portuguese speaker for thirty years after I studied the language but I'd been practicing out loud and when I finally met one we could understand each other.

The one thing you'll be weak on is pronunciation, without having a native speaker to criticize you. But listening to yourself carefully can help. Or better yet, record yourself and play it back.

You have the advantage of already being bilingual. The third language is always much easier.

With German, remember that the writing is not perfectly phonetic. B, D, or G at the end of a word is pronounced P, T or K. Single S between two vowels or before a vowel at the beginning of a word is pronounced Z. Before a consonant at the beginning of a word it's pronounced SH. The digraph ß is pronounced like SS but it only counts as a single letter, not a double, so a vowel in front of it is long, not short. There are two sounds for CH. After I, Ö or Ü, and in the suffix -CHEN, it's palatalized, like Chinese X; most of the rest of the time it's a KH sound.

There are phonetic variances in dialects. In some regions a final unaccented E is pronounced I, but in standard German it's a schwa. You might hear the suffix -UNG pronounced -UNK, but standard is -UNG. Some dialects pronounce W like English V (a soft F), others like Spanish V (lips together instead of upper teeth on lower lip), and in this case I'm not sure which is standard because the difference is almost too subtle for an anglophone to notice.

[deathfix]

Thanks for the tips.

A funny thing I (and a few of my classmates) noticed back in my first year of German was the pronunciation of G at the end of numbers. The teacher pronounced them like the normal G in English, but the kids in the cheesy videos he showed always had a K or KH sound at the end of any numbers that ended in -zig or -ssig. When questioned about it, the teacher said he didn't hear any difference. :confused:

[Fraggle Rocker]

A funny thing I (and a few of my classmates) noticed back in my first year of German was the pronunciation of G at the end of numbers. The teacher pronounced them like the normal G in English, but the kids in the cheesy videos he showed always had a K or KH sound at the end of any numbers that ended in -zig or -ssig. When questioned about it, the teacher said he didn't hear any difference.G in the suffix -IG is never pronounced like an English G sound. That's the way foreigners pronounce German: badly. This is another sound that is pronounced two ways and I'm not sure either one is preferred. The easiest for anglophones is just to pronounce it as a K, like any other G at the end of a word. The other way is to pronounce it as a palatalized KH, like the Mandarin phoneme that's transcribed X in the Pin-Yin system. The same way you pronounce the pronouns ich, mich, dich, euch. That is NOT the same KH sound as in Buch, mach, doch. You have to learn to hear that difference, and then say it.

[deathfix]

G in the suffix -IG is never pronounced like an English G sound. That's the way foreigners pronounce German: badly. This is another sound that is pronounced two ways and I'm not sure either one is preferred. The easiest for anglophones is just to pronounce it as a K, like any other G at the end of a word. The other way is to pronounce it as a palatalized KH, like the Mandarin phoneme that's transcribed X in the Pin-Yin system. The same way you pronounce the pronouns ich, mich, dich, euch. That is NOT the same KH sound as in Buch, mach, doch. You have to learn to hear that difference, and then say it.
I recognize and can pronounce the subtle differences with no problems. The other two German teachers I had in later years knew and correctly taught proper pronunciation of -ig and other rules.

[onlineaddict]

English
Spanish (beginner's level)

[olipt_crushed]

So far, Croatian, English, Italian, German, Esperanto, but will be learning languages for the rest of my life now. :thumbsup:

[Atopos]

Lots of multilinguists here! And many 4+ even!
I am mother tongue italian, fluent in english - oh, surprise surprise - and good in french. I am decent in German and learning some Finnish too. I can understand spanish, to some extent.
I've been born with the first, learnt english since I was six, took french in high school and later German at university. I have been in a spanish speaking environment for some time. Finnish? Well, my girlfriend is a finn!

[Atopos]

I recognize and can pronounce the subtle differences with no problems. The other two German teachers I had in later years knew and correctly taught proper pronunciation of -ig and other rules.

My teacher is Austrian and pronounces all (or most?) of the -ig endings as... [ig]. Just as is it written. Is she a fake mother tongue :confused: or just has a regional accent?

[Fraggle Rocker]

My teacher is Austrian and pronounces all (or most?) of the -ig endings as... [ig]. Just as is it written. Is she a fake mother tongue :confused: or just has a regional accent?I suspect that you're hearing it as IG because it's written that way, when in fact what she's saying is actually IK. There are quite a few dialects of German. One of the most notable things they differ on is the pronunciation of the "soft" CH sound. (As opposed to the "hard" CH sound of Buch and machen, which is a more common phoneme in the Indo-European languages, e.g. Spanish, Scots, Greek and most of the Slavic languages. All German dialects pronounce that the same way, as the sound we usually transcribe as KH in other languages.)

The soft CH sound of ich, moechte, saftig is usually taught to us foreigners as a palatalized KH, very similar to the Mandarin phoneme that is transcribed as X. But in some German dialects it's pronounced more like SCH. And in some dialects the final G in the ending -IG is pronounced K, just as it is in any other word ending in G, such as Tag.

[CharonZ]

Actually I am not sure whether there is a regional distinction in the pronunciation of ig. I have heard and used it myself randomly in both ways. I assume they started off as regional dialects (like using -ik or -isch) but permeated throughout Germany. I honestly wouldn't know whether there is a official "preferred" pronunciation.

[Atopos]

I suspect that you're hearing it as IG because it's written that way, when in fact what she's saying is actually IK. There are quite a few dialects of German. One of the most notable things they differ on is the pronunciation of the "soft" CH sound. (As opposed to the "hard" CH sound of Buch and machen, which is a more common phoneme in the Indo-European languages, e.g. Spanish, Scots, Greek and most of the Slavic languages. All German dialects pronounce that the same way, as the sound we usually transcribe as KH in other languages.)

The soft CH sound of ich, moechte, saftig is usually taught to us foreigners as a palatalized KH, very similar to the Mandarin phoneme that is transcribed as X. But in some German dialects it's pronounced more like SCH. And in some dialects the final G in the ending -IG is pronounced K, just as it is in any other word ending in G, such as Tag.

Thanks for the wonderful explanation!
Actually, I know there are several differences on the [ç] phoneme (while the [X] is usually only misunderstood by foreigners) but, this far, I was pretty sure that my teacher said "fertig" as [fertig], litterally. I'll pay more attention tomorrow!

[Atopos]

Fluent:

English
Finnish
Swedish [Norwegian is understandable to a point since I speak Swedish.]
Icelandic

Okay:

Dutch
Russian

Can I guess that you are finnish? ;)

[draqon]

Russian
English

some: french

want to learn: japanese

[Cellar_Door]

Un peu de français and English.

[LilyCao]

I've been trying to answer whether or not I think in Chinese. When I spend a few hours with a friend who can't speak English I think I hit that groove, but I'm not sure. The problem is that as soon as I start thinking about whether or not I'm thinking in Chinese I revert to English. It throws my whole speaking off.

I think I do think in Chinese, but it produces these weird moments where I have no idea how to produce the thought my brain is attempting to push through. Maybe there's an underlayer of English there. Or maybe it's more like a very young child. I can find a way - very quickly - to do what I believe is express my thought, but I know it's not correct grammar or ideal vocabulary. Much like a child with their first language who often uses strange grammar and out-of-place vocabulary until they pick up the details.

But I do find it excruciatingly difficult to switch back and forth some times. If I spend one or two days speaking nothing but Chinese the first time I speak to someone in English feels like a total dream-like state. The other way around is easier because I'm used to switching from English to a second language (French and, for a time, Italian). But once my brain is fully in Chinese mode it's hard to flip back to English. Like when I was learning French I find myself forgetting English words. For the life of me I still can never remember how to say 'remparts' in English most of the time. There are certainly nouns (mostly historical or vegetable related) I know in Chinese but have no idea the English for.


The thread is interesting.
French or Italian seems easier because you use international phonetics when learning them, but we Chinese use Chinese phonetic alphabets, i.e. Chinese Pinyin. There are four tones (the 1st tone: neither falling or rising; the 2nd tone: rising; the 3rd tone: falling, then rising; the last tone: falling) and there is no verb tense.
I have been learning English, and last year I learnt little Japanese. After that, My English sound strange. It took a long time for me to recover, however, I nearly forgot Japanese.

[LilyCao]

And I also find something interesting (or sad?): Friends from US or Europe speak Chinese better than those from Japan or Korea. For example, if they went to Beijing for a long time, they Can speak fluent Beijing Dialect. It's difficult for a Chinese to speak pure English. Many Chinese- including me- learn English, but are poor in speaking. We can speak, but are shy and nervous to do that.

[Fraggle Rocker]

And I also find something interesting (or sad?): Friends from US or Europe speak Chinese better than those from Japan or Korea.Despite being unrelated, English has many similarities to Chinese. The grammar is fairly simple, and it uses compound words. This makes Chinese easier for English-speakers. I'm not familiar with Korean but Japanese is vastly different in structure from both English and Chinese. So it makes sense that Chinese would be difficult for Japanese people to learn. English is very difficult for them too, but they do so much business with America that they work hard at learning it.For example, if they went to Beijing for a long time, they can speak fluent Beijing Dialect.Linguists call Mandarin a separate language, rather than a dialect, since there is no intercomprehensibilty among Mandarin, Cantonese, Shanghai, Fujian, etc. However, there are dialects within Mandarin such as Beijing and Sichuan; the speakers can understand each other with a little practice. Amusingly, it may be easier for foreigners to understand the various dialects of Mandarin than for native speakers. Most of the phonetic differences are in the tones. Since tones are not phonemic in our native languages, we notice the similarites in the vowels and consonants before we realize that the tones are different. 30-40 years ago I had a girlfriend from Chengdu and sometimes she would speak Sichuan dialect with her friends. (Sichuan has six tones and some of the consonants are opposite, like Shi-cuan instead of Si-chuan.) She was embarrassed one day when I joined their conversation. She assumed since I was studying Beijing Mandarin, that I couldn't understand what they were saying... about me!It's difficult for a Chinese to speak pure English.You're being too critical of yourself and your people. English is as easy for Chinese people as Chinese is for anglophones (English speakers). Of course learning a foreign language is difficult if one starts as an adult, and one may never succeed in sounding like a native. But having spent most of my life in Los Angeles, I've met hundreds of Chinese people, and most of them spoke English just fine. That's not the same as perfectly, but it's more than adequate for carrying on a conversation at normal speed--a business, personal, technical or scholary conversation--with complete understanding for both parties.Many Chinese- including me- learn English, but are poor in speaking. We can speak, but are shy and nervous to do that.You need to overcome that because it's not necessary--at least in American cities. We're accustomed to hearing our language from the lips of foreigners and we're not overly concerned with minor errors so long as understanding is not impaired. The purpose of language is communication, and as long as you can communicate, you're welcome to speak English with us.

After all, the alternative would be for Americans to learn foreign languages and, unlike the British and most Europeans, my people really hate doing that. The Europeans have a joke:What do you call a person who speaks three languages? "Trilingual." What do you call a person who speaks two languages? "Bilingual." What do you call a person who speaks one language? "American." ^_^

[LilyCao]

Thank you Moderator. Thank you for your encourage.:D

[tim840]

yeah... my Chinese teacher said one of the things she liked most about Americans was that they didnt criticize her for her English mistakes. We can understand just about anyone, and most Americans dont really mind having to interpet imperfect English, because we hear it all the time.

[Atopos]

yeah... my Chinese teacher said one of the things she liked most about Americans was that they didnt criticize her for her English mistakes. We can understand just about anyone, and most Americans dont really mind having to interpet imperfect English, because we hear it all the time.

You mean.... you hear it from americans or from foreigners? The first case would be quite shameful!:)

[ThaWalrus]

English is my native tongue, and I'm quite good at Latin in school, but I wouldn't consider myself fluent, amateur at best.

[Tyler]

And I also find something interesting (or sad?): Friends from US or Europe speak Chinese better than those from Japan or Korea. For example, if they went to Beijing for a long time, they Can speak fluent Beijing Dialect. It's difficult for a Chinese to speak pure English. Many Chinese- including me- learn English, but are poor in speaking. We can speak, but are shy and nervous to do that.

I can't count the number of times I've been told I speak more standard Chinese than the locals. I live in 广东 province (south east China) and of course any local speaks Cantonese, and when they speak Mandarin it's with a very heavy southern accent. Seeing as how the Maoists chose Beijing as the only proper Chinese, I've been forced to somehow learn a Beijing accent while living hours and hours away from anyone who speaks like that. But I think I can do it pretty well.

I have been learning English, and last year I learnt little Japanese. After that, My English sound strange. It took a long time for me to recover, however, I nearly forgot Japanese.

I've been terrified of what learning Chinese will do to my French (it's nearly killed any Italian I had left in me). Thankfully the local francophone says I still have a better accent than the other anglos.

The grammar is fairly simple, and it uses compound words.

I think you should revise this oft-used comment. The beginning grammar - or early stages - is very easy and simple. But as you learn more Chinese the "grammar" becomes more a trick of complex vocabulary that often has little discernible meaning but radically changes the placement of words. As a friend of mine is fond of saying "中文没有什么语法。" (Chinese has no grammar at all).

Amusingly, it may be easier for foreigners to understand the various dialects of Mandarin than for native speakers.

This is true. I think because we grow up with so much outside media, it's not quite the same in English. That is to say, I've seen many Brits, Yanks, Australians, etc. on television all my life and talked to many of them as well, so it's not hard for me to understand their accent. But someone in Guangdong may go their whole life never hearing a Xinjiang person speak.

I had a girlfriend from Chengdu and sometimes she would speak Sichuan dialect with her friends. (Sichuan has six tones and some of the consonants are opposite, like Shi-cuan instead of Si-chuan.) She was embarrassed one day when I joined their conversation. She assumed since I was studying Beijing Mandarin, that I couldn't understand what they were saying... about me!

This same thing has happened to me. I've eaten with a local friend's family a few times and his grandfather speaks poor Mandarin - mainly Cantonese and the local language. But he tries to speak Mandarin and it comes out as 1/3 Mandarin 1/3 Cantonese 1/3 Huizhouhua. I can follow him pretty well, but one of the northerners who ate dinner with us didn't understand him at all.

English is as easy for Chinese people as Chinese is for anglophones

On this point I completely disagree. I think English is a fundamentally more difficult language to reach conversational level. Yes, the tones are hard, but realistically after about 4 weeks of practice you should have that down.

But to speak English without making 15 grammar mistakes in one sentence takes Chinese students nearly 15 years of study. I pulled it off in Chinese in a half a year. This is partially because I live in China, but more so it's because I didn't have to spend day after day learning how to conjugate or which particle to use or... The fundamentals of daily speech in English are much more difficult to get down than Chinese. It's once you move into the advanced stuff that matters become hard in Chinese. I could probably study Chinese for ten years and still be more or less incapable of reading Confucius.

Of course learning a foreign language is difficult if one starts as an adult, and one may never succeed in sounding like a native.

But the Chinese start learning English at around 4 years old. Still, by 18 many of them can only come out with "How are you?" and the next four sentences of a conversation before they stop understanding anything at all.

Mind you, this may be way more of a statement on their education system than on the language.

You need to overcome that because it's not necessary--at least in American cities. We're accustomed to hearing our language from the lips of foreigners and we're not overly concerned with minor errors so long as understanding is not impaired. The purpose of language is communication, and as long as you can communicate, you're welcome to speak English with us.

This is the second biggest problem following the education system. People are way too shy and nervous. No one seems to realize that this hurts their ability to learn more than anything else.

-----------------------------

I've now reached the level where I can easily switch to thinking in Chinese. The interesting recent development is that I can listen to one language and act in another. So, for example, I have no problem watching a movie in English, following the story, and at the same time translating to the girl sitting next to me. Or I can listen to English news while writing Chinese homework. Or watch a Chinese movie while marking my students' English test. Though I think my writing quality goes down when I'm going multi-lingual.

-----------------------------

Fraggle, I wonder if you have any good information regarding the HSK(汉语水平考试) test. It's very difficult to find online sources for old tests. As well, I've heard rumour that the test system has been completely changed. Do you know anything about this?

[Tyler]

Oh, I meant to add....

I've been seeing a girl recently who speaks English about as well as I speak Chinese. (Though she has the horrible habit of nodding as if she understands my English even when she doesn't know what the hell I'm saying.)

We seem to switch back and forth from English to Chinese with almost no rhyme or reason. Halfway through a sentence one of us will just switch to Chinese and the other will follow and then the next 20 minutes of conversation are in Chinese.

But last night we tried something different. She suggested we go an hour with her speaking Chinese and me speaking English. We couldn't do it. After about 10 minutes I wasn't thinking and just responded to her question in Chinese. She scolded me and we went back to our respective languages. But then ten minutes later she was making fun of me for losing in our little game of language wars and she started speaking English! I had to point out to her "hey! You're making fun of me for failing, but you're speaking English right now!" She hadn't even realized.

It made me start thinking that I have become so comfortable now with Chinese that I don't even notice a transition when I switch from one to the other. My Chinese is still far from fluent, but my fluency rate is at a very comfortable level. (That is to say, I may use the wrong word, i.e. 表示 when I should say 表达, but the meaning is clear and in my head it makes sense.) Before, moving to Chinese was like going from smooth sailing to a mountain range. Now it's just like switching lanes on the highway.

[Fraggle Rocker]

Seeing as how the Maoists chose Beijing as the only proper Chinese. . . .You can't blame Mao for that. Mandarin has been the leading language of China for centuries and has 800 million speakers today. Wu, the collection of dialects that includes Shanghai, is second, with fewer than 100 million, although that's still more people than speak Swedish or Greek. [Reference here.] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varieties_of_Chinese) No doubt the number of Mandarin speakers has increased since the communist revolution, but still even back then it was a no-brainer for the choice of a national language.I've been forced to somehow learn a Beijing accent while living hours and hours away from anyone who speaks like that. But I think I can do it pretty well.I don't think I've never actually known anyone who spoke Beijing dialect. Every Chinese I know speaks Mandarin with his own regional accent. The Sichuan-stereotype reversal of S/C/Z with SH/CH/ZH seems quite common. I've been terrified of what learning Chinese will do to my French (it's nearly killed any Italian I had left in me). Thankfully the local francophone says I still have a better accent than the other anglos.Half an hour after landing in Paris or Rome it will all come back. Trust me.I think you should revise this oft-used comment. The beginning grammar - or early stages - is very easy and simple. But as you learn more Chinese the "grammar" becomes more a trick of complex vocabulary that often has little discernible meaning but radically changes the placement of words. As a friend of mine is fond of saying "中文没有什么语法。" (Chinese has no grammar at all).I call it "microgrammar" as opposed to the "macrogrammar" of most Indo-European languages. Like one measure-word for large flat things (zhang) and another one for animals (tiao). There are a large number of rules that each apply to a small number of cases. But I think that makes it less daunting because you can master one micro-rule at a time.

Every language has micro-rules. You can simplify your sentence construction, find a way around them or just break them and still be understood, and not knowing them only slightly impedes your understanding. But if you don't know macro-rules, it's difficult to understand people's speech, such as (frequently irregular) verb and noun inflections.On this point I completely disagree. I think English is a fundamentally more difficult language to reach conversational level. Yes, the tones are hard, but realistically after about 4 weeks of practice you should have that down. But to speak English without making 15 grammar mistakes in one sentence takes Chinese students nearly 15 years of study. I pulled it off in Chinese in a half a year. This is partially because I live in China, but more so it's because I didn't have to spend day after day learning how to conjugate or which particle to use or... The fundamentals of daily speech in English are much more difficult to get down than Chinese.Well I'm not going to quibble and perhaps I was exaggerating. Still English is a lot easier for them to learn to speak than a highly inflected language like Russian, and a lot easier to learn to understand than one that's spoken at machine-gun speed like Italian, or one that is riddled with phantom phonemes like French.I've eaten with a local friend's family a few times and his grandfather speaks poor Mandarin - mainly Cantonese and the local language. But he tries to speak Mandarin and it comes out as 1/3 Mandarin 1/3 Cantonese 1/3 Huizhouhua. I can follow him pretty well, but one of the northerners who ate dinner with us didn't understand him at all.Tian bu pa, di bu pa. Zuei pa Tung ren shuo Han hua. "I fear nothing in heaven or earth so much as the sound of a Cantonese speaking Mandarin."It's once you move into the advanced stuff that matters become hard in Chinese. I could probably study Chinese for ten years and still be more or less incapable of reading Confucius.That's like saying you could study Italian for ten years and still not be able to read Virgil. Ancient Chinese is not the same language as modern Mandarin. A friend of mine spent her teenage years in Greece, mastered Greek and went off to college. Then she discovered to her shock that all university lectures and textbooks are in ancient Greek.Fraggle, I wonder if you have any good information regarding the HSK(汉语水平考试) test. It's very difficult to find online sources for old tests. As well, I've heard rumour that the test system has been completely changed. Do you know anything about this?Sorry, never heard of it, and only one of those han zi is among the couple of hundred that I recognize.

[Tyler]

You can't blame Mao for that. Mandarin has been the leading language of China for centuries and has 800 million speakers today. Wu, the collection of dialects that includes Shanghai, is second, with fewer than 100 million, although that's still more people than speak Swedish or Greek. [Reference here.] No doubt the number of Mandarin speakers has increased since the communist revolution, but still even back then it was a no-brainer for the choice of a national language.

I think you misunderstood. I'm well aware of the prevalence of Mandarin. However the Beijing accent has not always been considered the "finest" or "most standard" accent. That was a relatively recent development. From Beijing to Tianjin you'll hear a difference. It's not a difference of dialect or language, it's a difference of accent. It's like the French-speaking community choosing Parisian accent as standard. And then making fun of the Quebecois for speaking differently.

I don't think I've never actually known anyone who spoke Beijing dialect. Every Chinese I know speaks Mandarin with his own regional accent. The Sichuan-stereotype reversal of S/C/Z with SH/CH/ZH seems quite common.

Yes. And if you live in China you will be mocked for speaking anything less than Beijing standard. And you'd be especially mocked for speaking like a Guangdong native.

Every language has micro-rules. You can simplify your sentence construction, find a way around them or just break them and still be understood, and not knowing them only slightly impedes your understanding. But if you don't know macro-rules, it's difficult to understand people's speech, such as (frequently irregular) verb and noun inflections.

I agree. This is a major reason it's difficult for the Chinese to move up to conversational in English. Their innate sense is that the macro-rules are not so important. So they don't try particularly hard to get them down. My problem was the opposite; I obsessed over the rules no matter how many times my friend would say not to worry and that I was perfectly understandable as it was. Of course, my problem is much nicer than their problem!

Well I'm not going to quibble and perhaps I was exaggerating. Still English is a lot easier for them to learn to speak than a highly inflected language like Russian, and a lot easier to learn to understand than one that's spoken at machine-gun speed like Italian, or one that is riddled with phantom phonemes like French.

True. Although thanks to the popularity of a certain Chinese English language course book the majority of adult Chinese think that they should speak English at Italian speed.

I can't tell you how many arguments I've had with Chinese where they insist I'm wrong. They are absolutely certain that because this Chinese fellow is wealthy, he must be right. The fact that English is my first language doesn't seem to dissuade them. They're pretty sure this guy is right and that "fluent English" means "really fucking fast English".

Tian bu pa, di bu pa. Zuei pa Tung ren shuo Han hua. "I fear nothing in heaven or earth so much as the sound of a Cantonese speaking Mandarin."

Little more than barely veiled elitism. In many ways the Cantonese speakers sound more pleasant. Though I like speaking with a northern accent and want to speak standard Chinese, I still break into laughter at the sound of northerners some times. It reminds me of the Swedish chef from The Muppets. "Ar de dar dar dar scar blar..." Just a whole bunch of "arrrrr" sounds thrown in every other word.

My southern Chinese ex-girlfriend and I used to make fun of it all the time, though always in a light-hearted sort of way. The difference with northerners (and I've spent time with northern gals as well) is that when they speak of southern Chinese it's not light-hearted. They genuinely consider them to be lesser people.

That's like saying you could study Italian for ten years and still not be able to read Virgil. Ancient Chinese is not the same language as modern Mandarin. A friend of mine spent her teenage years in Greece, mastered Greek and went off to college. Then she discovered to her shock that all university lectures and textbooks are in ancient Greek.

Fair enough. I'll put it another way. I could probably study for 10 years and still not be able to read a normal adult book.

Sorry, never heard of it, and only one of those han zi is among the couple of hundred that I recognize.

Is your wife not Chinese? Have you stopped learning Chinese?

[codanblad]

i learnt japanese through highschool, and my teacher had the same experience, that when faced with another foreign language, (for me especially if the person was asian) i'd automatically respond/think in japanese. the teacher was fluent (lived in japan for years) and when he went to france on a holiday he kept speaking japanese on accident. anyone else get that?

[Fraggle Rocker]

Sorry I missed this one. The "sticky" threads are easy to overlook.It's not a difference of dialect or language, it's a difference of accent. It's like the French-speaking community choosing Parisian accent as standard. And then making fun of the Quebecois for speaking differently.Or even the people from the south, who are the descendants of the Celtic Gauls and trill their R's instead of gargling them like the Germanic Franks.True. Although thanks to the popularity of a certain Chinese English language course book the majority of adult Chinese think that they should speak English at Italian speed.How fast does he speak? British English has a much faster cadence than American. Some of it comes from eliding syllables, but the rest is from simply talking faster.They're pretty sure this guy is right and that "fluent English" means "really fucking fast English".That's too bad. The faster a foreigner speaks incorrectly, the harder he is to understand. I have that problem a lot with Indians. They all speak Indian English, which is modeled on British English, but the grammar is a little vague for most of them. They can be very hard to understand.Is your wife not Chinese? Have you stopped learning Chinese?I did not marry the girlfriend from Sichuan. My wife and I have been married since 1977. I don't live in L.A. any more so the opportunities to practice Chinese are limited. I wish I could learn one of the Indic or Dravidian languages but since my seven Indian coworkers have six different native languages they always speak English. Besides, they need the tutoring more than I do. ;)

[Fraggle Rocker]

i learnt japanese through highschool, and my teacher had the same experience, that when faced with another foreign language, (for me especially if the person was asian) i'd automatically respond/think in japanese. the teacher was fluent (lived in japan for years) and when he went to france on a holiday he kept speaking japanese on accident. anyone else get that?I didn't do exactly that. However, since I first studied Spanish when I was eleven and rather naive, I unconsciously assumed that the phonemes in all foreign languages were the same as Spanish. Fortunately I found Spanish fascinating enough that I soon delved into other languages and learned better.

When I went to Czechoslovakia in 1973 I spoke what little Russian I had learned in college, figured out some of the major phonetic shifts, and picked up some new vocabulary. Then I did the same thing in Bulgaria and again in Bosnia. By the time I reached Slovenia I was speaking pidgin Slavonic with a transnational accent.

[Arachnakid]

I speak English fluently and Español fairly well. I'm in my third year of high school Spanish class, not so much because I like Spanish (although I do) but because I want to be a linguist, probably a translator of some sort. At some point I want to learn Russian, because it interests me, and Swedish, because I am Norse by heritage, but these are second to any languages that are more likely to require translation.

[Arachnakid]

I suspect that you're hearing it as IG because it's written that way, when in fact what she's saying is actually IK. There are quite a few dialects of German. One of the most notable things they differ on is the pronunciation of the "soft" CH sound. (As opposed to the "hard" CH sound of Buch and machen, which is a more common phoneme in the Indo-European languages, e.g. Spanish, Scots, Greek and most of the Slavic languages. All German dialects pronounce that the same way, as the sound we usually transcribe as KH in other languages.)

The soft CH sound of ich, moechte, saftig is usually taught to us foreigners as a palatalized KH, very similar to the Mandarin phoneme that is transcribed as X. But in some German dialects it's pronounced more like SCH. And in some dialects the final G in the ending -IG is pronounced K, just as it is in any other word ending in G, such as Tag.

I learned a little bit of German a while back, and my teacher commented that I had a "high german" r-- instead of the glottal r I make a kind of trill in the back of my throat that sounds a little bit like the Spanish erre. Actually, when I first started speaking Spanish I used this German r instead of the Spanish rr because it was easier (my Spanish teacher couldn't hear the difference :) )

[Tyler]

How fast does he speak? British English has a much faster cadence than American. Some of it comes from eliding syllables, but the rest is from simply talking faster.

The book series is titled 'Crazy English'. The man actually speaks English quite well, and his pace of speaking - while quicker than my own - does not make him difficult to understand. My problem with his method is that he instructs all students to speak at the same pace he does. His philosophy is that speaking quickly and loudly will make you look more confident, and therefore make native speakers assume your level is relatively high. This is true in some respect: speaking loudly and confidently does fool me into thinking someone's level is higher than it is in reality. However, for students below intermediate level - or below advanced level and speaking about difficult topics - speaking quickly robs me of being able to predict their speech. If their pronunciation is so awful as to render certain words completely indiscernible - and it is - then speaking faster just creates a mess of gargled syllables.

That's too bad. The faster a foreigner speaks incorrectly, the harder he is to understand.

Definitely. The thing I'm most confused by is the Chinese insistence on doing everything without help and their general belief that in any dispute between a native-speaker of English and a Chinese-speaker of English, the Chinese-speaker is correct. Children and teenagers don't seem too plagued by this disease, but it certainly runs rampant among the adults. Our English school constantly has new signs and information put up, usually written by the local staff or the marketing department (a mere 5 meters away from my desk). Not once have we been asked to edit. Not once have we been asked for a proper translation. Consequently, there are dozens of English mistakes up around the school. Only one staff member - who I've become quite good friends with - seems to have either the intelligence or modesty to ask for help; ironically, he is the best English speaker among them*. Moreover, I've had numerous arguments with students where they insist their Chinese teacher/friend is correct and that my English is incorrect. I've wasted far too much time in class going to find a book and showing them exactly why what they are saying is wrong.

I understand that certain times a student will feel an aspect of the language makes absolutely no sense. (In Chinese I'm still baffled by what can and cannot be called 漂亮 (piaoliang). I've been told by some I trust that a 'city' cannot be '漂亮'. Why? "Because it's too big." But you call the country 漂亮? Isn't a country bigger than a city? I don't get it. On top of which, I've heard other local friends use exactly that word to describe cities.) But how are they so certain that the local teacher knows more about English than the native speakers???


*The Chinese cultural norm that asking lots of questions makes one appear stupid is probably the greatest hindrance to English language learners in this country. Without fail the best students ask more questions than the others.

[Fraggle Rocker]

I learned a little bit of German a while back, and my teacher commented that I had a "high german" r-- instead of the glottal r I make a kind of trill in the back of my throat that sounds a little bit like the Spanish erre. Actually, when I first started speaking Spanish I used this German r instead of the Spanish rr because it was easier (my Spanish teacher couldn't hear the difference)There are two Spanish R's. The single R is a flap like the T or D in American English liter/leader; it's also the intervocalic R of some "upper class" British dialects. The double R (and a single R in certain initial positions) is a roll or trill.

The glottal or uvular R is a hallmark of the Germanic language subfamily and not common in the other branches of Indo-European. All the Scandinavian languages have it and I'm pretty sure it's what I hear in Dutch. English alone (possibly unique in the world) has our strange liquid R, which could almost be categorized as a semivowel and even functions as a full vowel in American English, e.g., "fur." The Franks were a Germanic tribe and they carried this phoneme into the Latin dialect that became French (along with several other Germanisms such as umlauted vowels and the replacement of the past tense with the present perfect). The Gauls were a Celtic tribe and in southern France you still hear the flapped Latin R of the other Romance languages.

But German has its dialects too and in some regions you'll hear a flapped "Italian" R.

His philosophy is that speaking quickly and loudly will make you look more confident, and therefore make native speakers assume your level is relatively high.How silly. It will also cause you to make more mistakes! Not only are you saying things you haven't had a chance to think out thoroughly, but your vocal organs haven't been exercised enough to simulate a native speaker.This is true in some respect: speaking loudly and confidently does fool me into thinking someone's level is higher than it is in reality.I'm sure you're not that easily fooled. Once he's made a couple of mistakes no native speaker would make, the scam becomes obvious.However, for students below intermediate level - or below advanced level and speaking about difficult topics - speaking quickly robs me of being able to predict their speech. If their pronunciation is so awful as to render certain words completely indiscernible - and it is - then speaking faster just creates a mess of gargled syllables.They may also be getting the cadence wrong: the difference in stress, pitch and length among the syllables and the quality of the breaks between them. You might not recognize this consciously (perhaps you will now that I've given you the clues), but it makes it difficult to parse the sentences: to identify where one word ends and the next begins. This is something Chinese speakers have particular difficulty with. For one thing pitch is phonemic in Chinese and therefore is not used the same way as in our language. But for another, since a Chinese sentence tends to have a lower syllable count than its translation into most other languages (7:10 in English or French and more like 1:2 in Spanish or Italian, by my own measure), the language is typically spoken more slowly than we're accustomed to, and the syllables often come out in a steady stream, almost like a drumbeat. When they speak English this way--especially if they speak it too fast--we can't group the syllables into words.

For example, if you speak Spanish quickly--at the velocity of a native speaker--you MUST convert every set of adjacent vowels into a diphthong or triphthong. This is done mercilessly, even if such a compound doesn't really exist such as OA or IAE. You have to turn it into the same makeshift sound they do, or it will be hard for them to understand you. This gives you up as a foreign speaker just as clearly as speaking too slowly, but at least they will be grateful for the courtesy of letting them understand you.

You Chinese friends are being discourteous to you. Perhaps if you explain it that way they will take notice. Courtesy is much more important in their culture than in ours. For example, if you walk into a group of Chinese people and start shouting, they might act like you're not there. Tell them that's analogous to what they're doing to you.The thing I'm most confused by is the Chinese insistence on doing everything without help and their general belief that in any dispute between a native-speaker of English and a Chinese-speaker of English, the Chinese-speaker is correct.We do the same thing. There are signs up in Spanish all over America that are rife with spelling errors. And as an earlier post pointed out, Brits practically pride themselves on pronouncing the names of Spanish drinks and foods wrong. After all, they turned kha-GWAHR into JAG-yoo-er. :) Language is arguably the most wonderful and important technology our species has invented. Language skills touch deeply into our psyche and we all want to feel that we're good at it.Children and teenagers don't seem too plagued by this disease, but it certainly runs rampant among the adults.Children have an instinct to learn (not to mention a greater ability), which is reinforced socially. Adults don't, something I have to deal with as a corporate trainer.Only one staff member - who I've become quite good friends with - seems to have either the intelligence or modesty to ask for help; ironically, he is the best English speaker among them.Obviously! That's how he got to be so good.Moreover, I've had numerous arguments with students where they insist their Chinese teacher/friend is correct and that my English is incorrect.Well these are the folks who call themselves the Middle Nation; all the rest of us are satellite peoples. The fact that they have the world's longest-running continuous civilization--by a factor of at least two--tends to reinforce that sense.The Chinese cultural norm that asking lots of questions makes one appear stupid is probably the greatest hindrance to English language learners in this country.That comes naturally from a culture that values stability over progress, in which change occurs at glacial speed. There isn't as much new stuff to learn, so by the time you're an adult you are quite reasonably expected to know everything.

[Lord Vasago]

dutch, french, english, german, i can speak rather well, writing is a other matter lol

[Tyler]

I'm sure you're not that easily fooled. Once he's made a couple of mistakes no native speaker would make, the scam becomes obvious.

I would never be so fooled as to think someone was a native speaker when they are not. But I can honestly say that if two students come in with roughly the same speaking level, student 1 sits upright, pronounces clearly and forcefully, looks relaxed and doesn't seem nervous, whereas student 2 is the polar opposite, I'm much more likely to put student 1 in a higher level class. Mind you, this is only speaking about a short interview (5 minutes or so), and after only or two full classes I would be able to pinpoint both students' level precisely.

They may also be getting the cadence wrong: the difference in stress, pitch and length among the syllables and the quality of the breaks between them. You might not recognize this consciously (perhaps you will now that I've given you the clues), but it makes it difficult to parse the sentences: to identify where one word ends and the next begins.

I did in fact take linguistics in university and have been keeping up to date with pedagogy for ESL, so I'm familiar with the terms and norms. However any lower-level student who is trying to mimic this fast-speak will not produce such difficulties in their sentences. Primarily because they have no choice but to think in between each word. The difficulty understanding them comes in the singular word or two-three word groupings. I've one student in particular who speaks individual words or small groups at break neck speed and then needs a 3-4 second pause while thinking of the next word. I've tried very hard to encourage her to change, but she's adamant that I'm wrong.

This is something Chinese speakers have particular difficulty with. For one thing pitch is phonemic in Chinese and therefore is not used the same way as in our language.

An oft-repeated claim that I still disagree heavily with. I understand that the 'four tones' make it easy to claim that pitch is used entirely differently than in English, but it's not the case all of the time. Many a textbook attempts to show this difference by saying that amazement, questioning or disbelief can be indicated by tone in English, whereas the tone is set rigid to the word in Chinese. But this horribly overlooks the numerous 'sentence ending characters' used which have no tone but can be used with any tone. Also overlooked is the fact that even within a rigid tone structure, Chinese speakers will start a sentence at a higher or lower tone than normal and proceed following the same structure but at a different pitch-level.

Pitch is used differently, but it's not purely phonemic.

Well these are the folks who call themselves the Middle Nation; all the rest of us are satellite peoples. The fact that they have the world's longest-running continuous civilization--by a factor of at least two--tends to reinforce that sense.

But then why pay a foreign teacher?
(In fact, many people don't go to foreign teachers specifically because they don't believe there is any use.)

That comes naturally from a culture that values stability over progress, in which change occurs at glacial speed. There isn't as much new stuff to learn, so by the time you're an adult you are quite reasonably expected to know everything.

Awfully frustrating, though!

[Fraggle Rocker]

Pitch is used differently, but it's not purely phonemic.I agree and was merely oversimplifying so the point would not be lost. Still I maintain that there is a qualitative difference between the use of pitch in Chinese and English, which creates a difficulty for a speaker of one language in learning the other.

We can say:

"He's here."

and

"He's here?"

and make the difference between a declarative and interrogative sentence obvious through the modulation of pitch. You can't do that with Ta zai jer. You can't put a rising or falling tone on a single Chinese syllable that doesn't have it, or you change it into a different morpheme and lose the meaning.

Yes, I know they do that in pop songs, but they restrict themselves to short sentences and a very small vocabulary that slavishly follows the context, thereby reducing ambiguity. I can almost understand Chinese pop lyrics.

[Tyler]

I think it's more accurate to say that Chinese simply uses pitch for phonemic uses more, and we use it for feeling/sentiment more.

That said:

"ta zai a!"

and

"ta zai a?"

(also... "ta zai zher", not "jer"!)

Are perfectly acceptable constructs in Chinese. Different charater for 'a', but the same sound except the tone is changed colloquially.

For that matter: "a???" is a common statement for confusion or disbelief, whereas "ah.." is disappointment (as in "ah, hao kelian ah"), and "a!" is understanding. Slap these on to the end of any sentence and you can use pitch to express sentiment.

I know for a beginner learning the language it's much easier to just tell them "Chinese questions are constructed using positive-negative form or adding 'ma' and 'ne' to the end of sentence". But it's very far from the whole truth.

[Tyler]

Truth be told, this is one of the biggest difficulties I have with Chinese! I can never remember which character for 'a' is surprise, which is understanding, which is... Same for some other sounds.

[Fraggle Rocker]

also... "ta zai zher", not "jer"!Sorry. I originally learned the Yale system and occasionally I lapse back into it. Dzai jyali wo syihwan shwo junggwo hwa, keshr wo bu hwei sye junggwo tsz.

[Cellar_Door]

English - 9
French - 6
German - 1
Russian - 1

[Fraggle Rocker]

English - 9; French - 6; German - 1; Russian - 1Are you using my powers-of-three scale??? A "1" means you know approximately three words. If you can stumble through an understandable sentence, with a vocabulary of 100-300 words and a rudimentary grasp of elementary grammar, that's a 4 or a 5.

Passable pronunciation of a restaurant menu might qualify for a 2. :)

[superstring01]

Engrish: 9.0
Spanish: 7.8
French: 6.0
Latin: 4.0
German: 4.0
Ancient Greek: 3.5

~String

[brokenpower]

It's hard to tell how much of each language i know. Some i learned while young, some i learned recently.

I can speak all of them fairly well, Icelandic was by far the hardest to learn...

English
Spanish
German
Icelandic
Danish
Chinese
Korean
Japanese
Latin
and of course Russian

[Walter L. Wagner]

Wish I knew more.

English - 9
German -7
Spanish - 6
Latin - 5
Italian - 4
French - 3
Russian - 2
Swahili - 1
Japanese - 1

[chuuush]

Farsi: 9,5
English: 8,5
Turkish: 8
Uzbeki: 7
Arabic: 7
Spanish: 2
Russian: 1
Urdu: 1
French: 1

[-ND-]

Romanian-10
English-9
Spanish-7

I understand German, French, and Arabic.

[Cellar_Door]

Are you using my powers-of-three scale??? A "1" means you know approximately three words. If you can stumble through an understandable sentence, with a vocabulary of 100-300 words and a rudimentary grasp of elementary grammar, that's a 4 or a 5.

Passable pronunciation of a restaurant menu might qualify for a 2. :)

Erm, I thought I was.

Ok, all the words/phrases I know in German:

Guten Tag
Auf Wiedersehen
Wo Wohnst Du?
Ich Wohne in ...
Ich bin sechzehn Jahre alt.
(Meine) Liebchen
Mutter
Vater
Grossmutter
Grossvater
Ich bin dich
Shizer (and various other rude words)
(Numbers up to 100)

Perhaps a 3/4 then if you count numbers?

All the phrases I know in Russian (transliterated of course):

Da
Niet
Niet Dorma
Pajalusta

That looks like a 1 (just about) to me.

Oh, I could add Welsh:

Yaown
Diolch
Bore da
Chi
Llan
Euraid
Losinen
Ambwlans
Nyrs
Araf
Ysgol
Jennie dw i

So that's about a 2.

Apart from my 6 in French, I know nothing of any other languages. Pretty shaming really.

[Fraggle Rocker]

Let's break out your individual German words:Guten, Tag, wo, wohnen, du, ich, bin, sechzehn, Jahre, alt, meine, Liebchen, Mutter, Vater, Grossmutter, Grossvater, (Numbers up to 100)That's sixteen words plus the numbers. Let's see, ein - neun and zehn - hundert, that makes nineteen more and 35 words gives you a 3. Perhaps my scale is too generous at the low end but I didn't want to make it too difficult to use.Auf WiedersehenYou probably don't know what wiedersehen means (again-see), nor auf, so I didn't give you credit for them.Ich bin dichI think you're trying to say Ich liebe dich, "I love you." Your sentence would translate as "I am you," but the grammar is incorrect.Shizer (and various other rude words)I'm not giving you credit for that one because you spelled it wrong and if that's the way you pronounce it you're also saying it wrong. I don't recommend learning profanity when you know hardly anything else of a language, so I'm not going to teach you how to say it right.Perhaps a 3/4 then if you count numbers?It's a power-of-three scale. Zero = one word, 1 = three words, 2 = ten words.... 10 = one hundred thousand words. 3/4 would mean you know two words and you know many more than that.All the phrases I know in Russian (transliterated of course): Da, Niet, Niet DormaDo you mean nye doma, not at home? There's no R in it. Unless you speak a non-rhotic (silent R) British dialect and throw the R in to make it look like an AW sound. That's not the standard way of transliterating Russian.PajalustaThat's a ZH, not a J. The ZH in "Asian," "collision," and many French words like jour and garage. It's customarily transliterated as "pozhaluysta" because that's the way it's spelled in Russian. But Russian spelling is not perfectly phonetic: the unaccented O is pronounced as an "uh" and the Y is silent. Sometimes it's written "pozhalu'sta" in Roman letters, to get it half right.Apart from my 6 in French, I know nothing of any other languages. Pretty shaming really.6 = one thousand words. That's nothing to be ashamed of. Very few Americans know a thousand words in any foreign language.

[alexslasce]

My mother tounges are Castilian and Catalan. I grew up speaking Polish and Romanian as well as those are my parents origins. But I can't read or write very well in those languages.
And English of course, but my english is horrible. I went to a British School and I barely learned, I think I've been doing better since I met my partner who's British.

[ptvo]

English, french, dutch

[PsychoTropicPuppy]

German, French, English..

[Fraggle Rocker]

German, French, English.Didn't you just post something in Czech on the other thread? Or was that Ukrainian--it also has the G-->H shift.

[PsychoTropicPuppy]

Didn't you just post something in Czech on the other thread? Or was that Ukrainian--it also has the G-->H shift.

Lol....I also speak Czech..but nothing admirable when it comes to written form. Reason why I didn't...mention it. =(

PS: I think Ukrainians type in Cyrillic.

[Fraggle Rocker]

I think Ukrainians type in Cyrillic.Yeah, but that's a lot of work if you don't have the keyboard interface. I suppose I have it on this Mac, since it came out of the box with everything else. I just never learned to touch-type on a Russian keyboard.:(

[hypewaders]

I would like for more people, who have not done so already, to list their languages and proficiency.

[Darkie]

English
Russian
Hebrew
French
German
Ukrainian

[amark317]

1.88, actually.
English and I'm half way through my 4th year of German.

[flameofanor5]

English, Spanish, and Pig Latin. I also know all of the Greek letters, but I cannot speak "Common" Greek.

[science man]

I voted two because I, well, obviuosly know English and I took two years of Spanish which where I live is extremely handy and I plan to continue learning Spanish but also learn Italian because I'm half Italian. If my school oftered Italian I would've never taken Spanish but it doesn't so to fill the requirement I chose the language to it.

[Fraggle Rocker]

I voted two because I, well, obviuosly know English and I took two years of Spanish which where I live is extremely handy and I plan to continue learning Spanish but also learn Italian because I'm half Italian. If my school oftered Italian I would've never taken Spanish but it doesn't so to fill the requirement I chose the language to it.Knowing Spanish will be a tremendous help in learning Italian, since they're both descended directly from Latin.Nouns, adjectives and articles have gender. Verbs are conjugated in enormous, complicated paradigms. Many of the inflections (grammatical suffixes) will be familiar to you. Many of the words in their vocabulary are identical except for some simple phonetic alterations.You should be able to breeze through your first-year course.

There's a huge community of expat Italians in Argentina. They've developed a patois that is a mixture of Spanish and Italian.

[ejderha]

Only English as a foreign language. Time to start a new one. I am late.

[ejderha]

Knowing Spanish will be a tremendous help in learning Italian, since they're both descended directly from Latin.

Italian is so easy. Almost no irregulars. Pronounciation is as the written. If you studied Latin or understand French, you'd learn it in 6 months at most. I am not fluent in Italian, but will be the easiest one to go. And it's a lovely language. Spanish is much more complicated.

[Grim_Reaper]

I know one English I would like to someday learn the African Bushman Clicking Language.

[science man]

Italian is so easy. Almost no irregulars. Pronounciation is as the written. If you studied Latin or understand French, you'd learn it in 6 months at most. I am not fluent in Italian, but will be the easiest one to go. And it's a lovely language. Spanish is much more complicated.

Wow I heard that Spanish and Italian were similar but never that Italian is easier than Spanish. THATS AWSOME!!!

[s0meguy]

intellectual masturbation topic alert

most of you probably dont speak half the amount of languages you say you do anyhow

[Fraggle Rocker]

most of you probably dont speak half the amount of languages you say you do anyhowNot true. Many of SciForums' members are not Americans. Outside of our country it's quite common for people to speak multiple languages. They have a cute riddle in Europe:

Q: What do you call a person who speaks three languages? A: Trilingual
Q: What do you call a person who speaks two languages: A: Bilingual
Q: What do you call a person who speaks one language: A: American

[s0meguy]

Not true. Many of SciForums' members are not Americans. Outside of our country it's quite common for people to speak multiple languages. They have a cute riddle in Europe:

Q: What do you call a person who speaks three languages? A: Trilingual
Q: What do you call a person who speaks two languages: A: Bilingual
Q: What do you call a person who speaks one language: A: American

actually, i am a european, and i would think that joke has american origins, quite a few americans that bash the shit out of their own country. i dont think that europeans in general occupy their time like that. not to say that america isn't disliked/thought lowly of among a large part of the european population.

so you dont think that there are a bunch of people that go to this thread to simply brag and stretch the truth a little to be able to brag more? sure, there are some that don't do this. im not putting your language skills in question, fraggle rocker. ive read enough from you to know that :)

[nex]

Native - Russian, official - Ukrainian, foreign - English. And I want to learn German in the future :)

[ejderha]

actually, i am a european, and i would think that joke has american origins, quite a few americans that bash the shit out of their own country.

It's European as far as I know. I heard it countless of times from them. They also call the person 'American' simply without the riddle.

[John99]

Not true. Many of SciForums' members are not Americans. Outside of our country it's quite common for people to speak multiple languages. They have a cute riddle in Europe:

Q: What do you call a person who speaks three languages? A: Trilingual
Q: What do you call a person who speaks two languages: A: Bilingual
Q: What do you call a person who speaks one language: A: American

to be fair, that is because the main language doesnt change every 30 miles.

[Fraggle Rocker]

so you dont think that there are a bunch of people that go to this thread to simply brag and stretch the truth a little to be able to brag more?Of course there must be people who have done that, but I doubt that it's very many. Linguistics is not the most popular subforum on this website. The people who bother to come here are generally very interested. They usually stick around long enough to demonstrate their language skills.

Besides, nobody follows the rule any more of rating their fluency on my powers-of-three scale. (E.g., 4 = 100 words, 7 = 3,000 words.) So if somebody says they can speak Polish and all they can really do is order food in a Polish restaurant, pronounce the words correctly, and get what they thought they were ordering, well then that just means they're around level 3.to be fair, that is because the main language doesnt change every 30 miles.Which is not necessarily an advantage. Unless you're a musician, sculptor, etc., most of your thoughts are formed in words. Therefore the paradigms of the language you speak shape and limit those thoughts. If you can think in two languages, you can test the thoughts in one language against the other and it might make you a better thinker.

[science man]

Italian is so easy. Almost no irregulars. Pronounciation is as the written. If you studied Latin or understand French, you'd learn it in 6 months at most. I am not fluent in Italian, but will be the easiest one to go. And it's a lovely language. Spanish is much more complicated.

Man you are so right. I found an Italian verb conjugator online and saw that conjugations are soooo much easier on top of the fact that there's only one to be verb instead of Spanish where there's two.

[philipthegreat]

English and Spanish and I also speak some broken French.

[shichimenshyo]

English and some japanese.

[christa]

i feel all bad now!!
i know English the best, very little Spanish, and i live around alot of Spanish.. i also live around the Navajo Indians and can't speek it either...

i would love to learn Italian, German-my heritage, also Turkish, and i am sure some others.

[shichimenshyo]

How many Spanish would you say you live around? Is it more or less than five Spanishes?:D

[christa]

lol, like most of my street is spanish, and both neighbors....tho one side is half, and the other side moved in I think after the dad got his greencard....

[science man]

i feel all bad now!!
i know English the best, very little Spanish, and i live around alot of Spanish.. i also live around the Navajo Indians and can't speek it either...

i would love to learn Italian, German-my heritage, also Turkish, and i am sure some others.

ya I want to learn Italian because it is my hertiage too.

[Darkie]

i feel all bad now!!
i know English the best, very little Spanish, and i live around alot of Spanish.. i also live around the Navajo Indians and can't speek it either...

i would love to learn Italian, German-my heritage, also Turkish, and i am sure some others.

Try Navajo! It's a real challenge!

[Fraggle Rocker]

Man you are so right. I found an Italian verb conjugator online and saw that conjugations are soooo much easier on top of the fact that there's only one to be verb instead of Spanish where there's two.In Italian the verb stare is occasionally used where we would use "to be," just like the Spanish cognate estar, although not nearly as often. Come sta? = "How are you?"

In Spanish estar is used only in certain constructions.Location. Mi padre está en Bolivia. My father is in Bolivia. With a participle. Yo estoy comiendo. I am eating. La tierra está cubierto de nieve. The land is covered with snow. A few idioms. Cómo está usted? Yo estoy bien. How are you? I am well.Pretty much everywhere else you use the verb ser for "to be." It's not as difficult as it seems at first glance.i feel all bad now!! i know English the best, very little Spanish, and i live around alot of Spanish. We call them Latino(s), or Latin-American(s), or Hispanic, or, considering where you live, they're probably all Mexican-American(s). "Chicano" was once coined to mean a person of Mexican ancestry who was born in the USA, but I don't hear that word very often any more. "Spanish" is the language, but when you're talking about people "Spanish" is used exclusively for people from Spain. There was a time when people of the privileged class in Mexico called themselves "Spanish" to distinguish themselves from the mestizos, the working class of mixed European and native ancestry. But DNA analysis showed that they're all of mixed "blood." All of Latin America is a Melting Pot, just like our country, and that's what we should all be proud of.Try Navajo! It's a real challenge!Navajo is related to Maya, Quechua, and the other languages of Mexico, Central and South America, rather than to most of the languages north of the Rio Grande. Its structure is very different from the Indo-European, Semitic, Finno-Ugric, Mongolic, Sino-Tibetan, and other language families we're familiar with in Europe and Asia. During WWII the U.S. military used Navajos as radio operators, speaking their own language. The Germans and Japanese had no one who could understand it and it is impossible to "break" like a code or even puzzle out the way we might eventually figure out a language closely related to our own like Dutch. They were called "code talkers" and there are still a few around who talk about their experience.

[christa]

man i tried navajo in the 5th grade, talk about a blank look on my face! Its a really complicated language to learn! even the navajos around here have stopped speaking it unless its an elder..

and umm no Rocker.. lol... there are ALOT of illegals around here... just because we do not border mexico directly up here, doesnt mean we dont have them. You get shocked when you find out people have a green card...

[Fraggle Rocker]

there are ALOT of illegals around here... just because we do not border mexico directly up here, doesn't mean we dont have them.They're still not Spanish. Spanish people come from Spain.

[Grim_Reaper]

One day I want to learn Klingon and Romulan as well.

[Darkie]

Fraggle Rocker, yeah, I've seen the movie. )) Learning difficult and rare languages is fun.

[Fraggle Rocker]

Fraggle Rocker, yeah, I've seen the movie.What movie?

[Darkie]

Windtalkers with Nicholas Cage. It's about the Navajo radio operators during WWII. Highly recommended.