I didn't know where to post this, so I flipped a coin. I thought it was interesting in many ways. Simplistic? Maybe, but that don't mean it's not accurate. Baron Max ********* "Do you know ...why so many American blacks converted to Islam?" Kennedy asked. "No," Castillo admitted. "Because they hate 'whitey' as much as the 'ragheads' hate all infidels," Kennedy said. "And for exactly the same reason; They got left behind and they don't like it." "That's what it's all about, Charley," Pevsner said. "The Muslim world getting left behind. Think about it. "Take away their oil reserves and what do they have?" He continued. "They once dominated the known world. Now, with the exception of their oil, they are completely unimportant - more to the point, powerless - in the modern world. They simply don't have the skills and the culture to compete in the modern world. They gave the world mathematics, and some of the most wonderful architecture - so long as (it) is based on one stone laid on top of another. "All the skyscrapers in the Arab world were designed and built by the infidels. And their airplanes were designed and build by infidels. And their telephone systems ...even their sewers. And they need infidels to keep everything running. "This isn't the way Muhammed told them it was going to be. He promised them, in the Koran, that they would control the world. And they all know this because higher education in the Arab world consists mostly of men - only men - memorizing the Koran. And since nothing is their fault, it has to be someone else's fault ...the infidel's fault." "That seems pretty simplistic," Castillo complained. "Because an answer is simple doesn't mean it's not the answer." "The Muslim world is four hundred - maybe five hundred - years behind the Western world. And adding to that problem is their religious hierarchy who likes it that way. People in power are never in favor of a system change that will see their own power diminished. "That's also true in the Western world, of course. ... The difference is that as the influence of the Christian hierarchy on their societies diminished over time, the Muslim hierarchies' influence has grown." "They have - as we see examples about every day - thousands, tens of thousands ...of faithful Muslims who are perfectly willing to sacrifice their lives because their mullahs tell them it will please Allah. And also send them directly to heaven, where they will receive the attentions of grateful whores. This, I think you'll agree, makes for a very dangerous situation for Western society." from the novel: The Order of the President, by W.E.B. Griffin
Interesting, but I suggest the issue isn't lack of skills to compete in the modern world, but resources. Without oil revenue, the middle east just cannot support a large population. Much of that revenue didn't even end up in the hands of the average person, but rich monarchs.
Don't you find it interesting that the Jews came into the Middle East in the late 40's and turned essentially a desert into a thriving and prosperous region that's still growing today in leaps and bounds? While the Arabs and Muslims, even with all of their oil wealth do little or nothing? ...except, perhaps, blame America and the west for their own failures? Baron Max
Israel is a net importer of food, isn't it? Water is also becoming a major issue there, and all the Israelis I know are moving to the US.
But wasn't America producing all of the oil it needed at this time? So we didn't need arab oil. So it was basically worthless then?
I think the issue is that the religion of Islam hasn't been reformed. Think about it. A thousand years ago, one could argue that the Arab world was more civilized than Europe. But during the Renaissance and Enlightenment, when religion became dcoupled from western society, culture progressed very rapidly.
Appologies to all of the reformed Muslims. I just realized that there were some Muslims with a sensible world-view, but these are largely outweighed, at least in the middle east, by Muslims with unsensible world-views.
That's the key. Islam was founded 600 years after Christianity and it has tracked 600 years behind it with amazing precision. Right now it is having its Crusades and Inquisition. If you think this is bad, wait for the wars and persecution its Reformation will bring! We can only hope that in 600 years the world of Islam will be as secularized as Christendom is today, with only a few diehards hanging on. And hope that yet another wacked-out patriarchal, monotheistic, evangelical offshoot of Abrahamism does not at that moment metastasize out of the Middle East like a cancer epidemic and start the whole cycle all over again.
Whose unsensible worldview was it to invade Iraq and immerse ourselves in this region to begin with? The invasion and Israel's invasion of Lebanon has fueled the radical elements in Islam all over the globe. Greatest recruiting tools ever because it proves the Islamic fundie chant about Western and Israeli aggression toward Muslims is in fact true.
Muslims Left Behind? I don't think so, because right now the modern Saladin is getting stronger than ever, we'll see his forces spread in inmense way in the following years.
The decision of several Muslims and a tiny radical splinter group. Do you even know the Muslim population worldwide? The actions of a handful of people can't represent a religion with billions of members. Now we've killed more Americans than died on 9/11, killed more Iraqis than Saddam, invaded the wrong country and still you justify a war on Islam. From your profile you're young enough to suit up and validate your username. What's keeping you?
don't think so, because right now the modern Saladin is getting stronger than ever, Who is the modern Saladin ? could you spesify his function.Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Do you find it interesting that Iran was a liberal democracy in the 50s and before, until the CIA idiotically decided to assassinate a democratically elected president and install a dictatorial shah, who proceeded to arrest and/or murder all political opponents? A democratic, capitalist system would have been amazing in Iran had the US used a bit of foresight and even a tiny bit of brain power. In fact, they could've been a shining example in the Middle East and we wouldn't be in the situation we are today by the simple fact that the Ayatollah Khomeini's Iranian revolution would NOT have occurred. The problem isn't Islam or Muslims. Any country that is dedicated to the one-two punch of democracy and capitalism will thrive in our modern world. And I emphasize dedicated. Israel has learned that. Japan learned that. South Korea learned that. Taiwan learned that. Brazil has learned that. Arab leaders need to learn that. It could've worked in Iran, but as I've stated above, we the Americans stifled that. That's why China will eventually become democratic, which is why I hope we don't strain ties with them. To be the best or to overtake America, China will have no choice but to be democratic. I'm crossing my fingers and hoping that the Arab world adopts democracy.
I know this sounds odd but I thought that about 95% of our own Western-wealth is not in the hands of the general populations .. ... ... ... is it?
Baron Max: Off topic slightly, but do you have the year of publication of the novel: The Order of the President, by W.E.B. Griffin I'm worried the text might be plagiarised.
Amazing precision ... are you sure? It seems IMHO Europe and the ME have followed different paths with the only common denominator being that both were infected with monotheism. If we consider ancient Greece and Rome then Europe was startlingly more advanced then about anywhere in the World - including compared with Islamic countries a 1000 years later - during their Golden Era. In Europe, following the Xian meme + a series of devastating plagues + a very serious minor ice age (the last unique to Europe) they culturally and technologically declined and it just so happens that the ME was prospering during this time - but that is relative to Europe, not due to it and certainly not relative to China, the ME was still way behind. So the ME at this point doesn't seem to be tacking 600 years behind Europe. They were ahead of Europe. Also I think of Islam as a revolution and sometimes during the following redistribution of wealth society prospers. The ME didn't change the system og governance so much but they did redistribute wealth and they did have a monopoly on the silk and spice trade routes and so they prospered - over that of Europe, but maybe not that of China. I just don't see the tacking along 600 years behind? At some points the ME were "ahead" and at other times Europeans were ahead and at other time they were both about at the same level. It wasn't until the Portuguese sailed around Africa that the jig was up for the ME (and has been ever sense). And that wasn't connected to monotheism. It was purely due to a need to get a better deal on goods - that trade route was worth BILLIONS of dollars. Also, ME rulers have been trying to secularize the ME for 100 years - it isn't working. Further, the ME has been exposed to the ideas of Democracy and Republic for over 2500 years - that also isn't taking. Whereas in Europe these are their homegrown ideas. So again, I don't see the tacking behind Europe. If anything then considering those ideas the ME is tacking at about 2500 years behind Europe and counting! I don't know what the future holds but with todays information highway I don't think they have a 600 year lag-behind to fall back on (weather a true caricature or not). In the next 600 years the West/East will have made monumental leaps forward scientifically. The ME really doesn't have the propensity to make the leap with us. It's just not part of their culture or they would have already done so. Michael
