literacy and sciforum

Discussion in 'Art & Culture' started by euphrosene, Aug 20, 2006.

  1. euphrosene Delusions of Divinity? Registered Senior Member

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    Are most of the members of sciforums.com non-English speaking? Or perhaps that should be the members who regularly and vocally post?

    It may not be necessary to be literate or articulate, yet still have a scientific mindset, but it sure helps

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  3. imaplanck. Banned Banned

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    I dont know about the americans but in England it is often said that we English are the worst English speakers in the world. Thats probably due to the multitude of regional variations. For instance someone from Yorkshire may incorrectly say 'it were a nice day, it were the sun what did it' or something.
    When you learn English as a second language it is most often taught in a grammatically correct manner, where as learning the language from input as a child is very unlikely to be in most of England.
    Anyway thats my theory.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2006
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  5. perplexity Banned Banned

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    A large proportion are American, in which case the point is debatable.

    More seriously, it would be very helpful if more of the contributors were willing to use to their profile pages to indicate where they are, and if English is not their first language, rather than the usual "n/a".

    I surmise that with many this is because of nothing more than laziness, because they eventually prove to be willing to volunteer the information as a subsequent part of the content of particular postings.

    On occasion it is otherwise dangerously deceptive because poor comprehension is not always immediately apparent, with conflict possibly attributed to personal hostility when the real problem was nothing worse than a mistaken interpretation of a word.

    --- Ron.
     
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  7. euphrosene Delusions of Divinity? Registered Senior Member

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    Good point Ron.

    There are a lot of rather forceful opinions yet few have the courage to say who they really are as well.

    I can understand if someone is using a work computer but I'm sure most people do not have such unusual names (self excepted!) that they will be instantly recognisable.

    But, back to English ... I just find some of the comments syntactically sloppy which does not bode overwell for those who purport to be scientific. If care cannot be taken in how an argument is expressed, why should the view have any merit?

    Cheers Euphrosene
     
  8. euphrosene Delusions of Divinity? Registered Senior Member

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    149
    You may be right. But there is also a secondary issue.

    Unfortunately, in the desire to break away from it, regionalism and estuary are now the new class distinctions.... and the desire to 'speak proper' is now a generation away.

    It will be back to the individual to lift language again.
     
  9. imaplanck. Banned Banned

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    Yeah I think people studying science have enough on their plate though without having to address a deficiency in an area which(lets face it) is an issue of correctness rather than being understood. Intelligence and use of language are pretty closely linked though so a poor use of your first language is kind of lame.
     
  10. Absane Rocket Surgeon Valued Senior Member

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    Intelligence could far exceed one's patience to pick the right words and the correct order of those words.
     
  11. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    I'm enough of a linguist to recognize that the vast majority of people who post here, at least in the forums where I hang out, are anglophones, of which I'd say we Americans and Canadians comprise a (perhaps bare) majority.

    The internet is building new language communities, of people who only know each other from their writing. It's an interesting process. Regional dialects may show up in the speech of educated people, but not in their writing, which has more chance to undergo conscious scrutiny. A Yorkshireman with a sheepskin would never write, "It were a nice day," any more than a Texan with one would write, "How you all doin' with that-there project?"

    We have a myriad differences in vocabulary between the USA and the UK so we can tell each other apart in writing, but there are virtually no regional differences in writing. It takes an expert to notice the rare telltales, e.g. what we call a cougar in California is a mountain lion in Arizona and a panther in Florida.

    I'm certain that almost all of the sloppy English writing you observe (at least among native speakers) is by young people. We have kids holding boldly erudite discussions about relativity and asking charmingly naive questions about sex who are only 14. It's a sad fact about America's government-run educational system, which is as defective as every other public enterprise, that these kids are not being taught good language skills, particularly reading and writing. Today's average American college graduate reads and writes at what in my day (pass the Geritol, granny) was called the sixth-grade level. (Eleven-year-olds.)

    Eventually the bright ones pick it up, and you see generally competent writing among the adults here. Unfortunately, people of average intelligence never do get it.

    But the internet is changing that too. The prominence of TV brought about the demise of reading for both pleasure and information, and cheap telephony obviated the writing of letters and memoranda. Now e-mail, chat rooms and forums like this one are bringing it all back.

    We will probably see an improvement in literacy. However, as motor fuel becomes more expensive and people travel less, we will probably also see a resurgence of regional speech dialects.
     
  12. Neildo Gone Registered Senior Member

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    5,306
    I tend to type the way I talk. Well, not all the time, but I do it a lot depending on the mood I'm in, ya know? I couldn't care less for the cookie-cutter "correct" way of typing in a more social forum such as this because I'm not writing some huge college thesis that I'll be graded on or something else important.

    Besides, I also do a ton of typing in the day so I kind of get tired having to be so proper when I get home, not having to worry about correcting myself. Sure, I naturally type correct and all, but I tend to just sit back in my chair and kick back when I read the forums so I may make a couple mistakes and I don't wanna have to go all the way back and correct myself. It's bad enough getting in heated debates, let alone have to worry about grammar police.

    As Fraggle mentioned, typing is usually the only way we have to communicate with each other and well, if everyone sounds the same, it's boring. I like to liven it up and make it sound more real. It just makes things a tad bit more interestin' instead of reading these forums as if they're a freakin' book.

    If you wanna make these forums some kind of official scientific place where everything counts, then go ahead, but as far as I'm concerned, this is a social hobbiest place to have fun and share in some interestin' debates on various topics of interest, so we don't have to worry about being perfect.

    - N
     
  13. euphrosene Delusions of Divinity? Registered Senior Member

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    I wasn't referring to the idiosyncracies of those with obvious skills and little time.

    It's almost disheartening though being drawn into a conversation (not necessarily on this site) only to find more mental stimulation from a dried sponge.

    Re earlier comment on quality of US education - there was a piece today about firms having to teach the 3Rs to staff 'poor grasp', 'without basic skills to do their jobs'.... 'sheer scale of substandard English ... costing the economy £10b a year...'.

    On another board, someone mentioned civilisations, implying the inferiority of some races. If jobs go to Chinese and Indians (because of their better command of our language) how long will it be before our world becomes the inferior one?
     
  14. Neildo Gone Registered Senior Member

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    Oh, I know, just giving you an example of how some may appear one way yet aren't.

    butt i no wut u maen lolz!@!1!

    - N
     
  15. Athelwulf Rest in peace Kurt... Registered Senior Member

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    I nearly always type correctly, and naturally so. If my fingers make a stumble, I automatically hit the backspace button. I believe I naturally type correctly because when I learned to type, I learned to type English, not the shitty Netspeak that's running rampant. I have to actually think about my typing when I want to type Netspeak.

    I must say a lot of people would benefit from putting thought into how their posts are written. Oh, and they could use a spelling and grammar check too. It would make my reading experience a bit easier.
     
  16. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    24,066
    Nothing personal. I was a bit bored and thought it would be 'funny' because you mentioned putting thought in what they post. This is how I would have written that paragraph with some thought.


    I nearly always type correctly, and naturally (1) so. If my fingers make a stumble (2), I automatically hit the backspace button. I believe I naturally (1)type correctly because when I learned to type, I learned to type English (2), not the shitty Netspeak that's running rampant. I have to actually think about my typing when I want to type Netspeak (2-3).


    I nearly always type correctly. If my fingers stumble, I automatically hit the backspace button. I believe I type correctly because I learned to type in English, and not in Netspeak that's running rampant. I actually have to think when I type Netspeak.



    (1) not naturally, because you learned to do so. The whole subsentence can be deleted because you explain why in the next sentence.
    (2) shortened.
    (3) slight change in order.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2006
  17. The Devil Inside Banned Banned

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    you are a serious asshole.

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    alas, i cannot resist your treehopping charms.
     
  18. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    Thanks. I also take my assholism seriously.

    Assholism. Is that a word? It should be.
     
  19. The Devil Inside Banned Banned

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    i think the proper term would be "assholery".
     
  20. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    You assholist hater!
     
  21. The Devil Inside Banned Banned

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    every day of my life.
     
  22. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    A fulltime job then.
     
  23. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    If you guys wanted to get technical, you could define if you mean ASS (Donkey) or ARSE (Buttocks). As for the implication of "Hole", I can't tell if you mean the pit in which you stick your Donkey or the never regions where the sun doesn't shine.

    (Why I'm replying.... well you guys can't have all the fun you know, thats illegal and prohibited

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