What is the porpuse of humanity and existence itself ???

[Truenemo1889]

Can anybody give a solid answer on this one ? It has been bugging me for a while . THX :confused:

[kmguru]

To enjoy life...
To worship creation....
To go where no man (woman, dog, cat) has gone before... :D

[Stryder]

Your ask for purpose as IF it's been designed...

Our design is of evolution, of mistakes and corrections, striving for dominance and survival. (This usually means the more dominant the more chance to survive)

No matter what anyone might claim as their reasoning, it is their reasoning not your own. If you question it then you should seek your own understanding, although reflecting on others understandings is a start.

Survive, Prosper and Grow pretty much covers it.

[Merlijn]

Hi Stryderunknown,
I challenge you (and any other feeling compelled) to give some prove to the idea of the universe being without design. Is it not impossible to prove, just like the alternative?

Does God play dice?

[Imahamster]

Merlijn, Imahamster will undertake such a challenge. Being the cantankerous critter this hamster is, this hamster will expound on whatever this hamster wishes rather than focus exactly on the challenge presented.

Often a believer suggests that some biological structure such as the “eye” is “proof” of intelligent design. A skeptic then shows a process whereby an “eye” could arise from a series of natural steps. The believer might reasonably disagree with the proposed process or might point to a different example and say then explain this. After several such exchanges the believer feels he has “proven” the existence of a designer and the skeptic feels he has shown that a designer is not needed. The skeptic may get very tired of this endless process and proclaim that inductively he has shown there is no designer. If out of the vast number of questions asked and answered throughout history not one required a designer, the skeptic may feel there is inductive “proof” that there is no designer. The believer doesn’t accept this “proof” as he feels that several questions were answered very poorly if they were answered at all. The position of each side hardens.

To one who hasn’t played this game it may seem that one can’t disprove the existence of a designer. Next week miners might unearth tablets written in English saying, “I did so design the Earth. So there.” Or some mathematician could discover a similar message in the digits of pi. That really isn’t the issue. (At least to this hamster. Might be to others.)

The believer feels there is already sufficient evidence to conclude a designer exists. The skeptic feels sufficient evidence has been examined that future discovery of compelling evidence for a designer is very unlikely. (Scientific proof isn’t mathematical proof. One need only provide sufficiently compelling evidence. On the over hand, science doesn’t promise absolute certainty. All conclusions may be re-examined under the light of new evidence.)

This hamster feels it’s too early to draw conclusions. Very intelligent people have “examined the evidence” and come to diametrically opposed views. When this happens in a science area, this hamster usually concludes that there is insufficient evidence or that none of the proposed explanations are correct. When the dispute occurs across systems of belief the dispute is more fractious as the systems don’t share methods for acquiring, examining, or interpreting evidence. Tempers may flare as each side disparages the other’s irrationality.

(It not as bad as it might seem as both believers and skeptics grew up under similar conditions so they share human reasoning processes. Learning to find one’s socks in the morning requires that one evaluate evidence and be familiar with doubt. Living in a technological world requires one accept much that one will never understand.)

These disagreements would be academic except that the modern communications society is interconnecting everything. It’s no longer possible to screen one’s children from another group’s beliefs. The Amish have cell phones. Afghan and African tribes have televisions. The walls are crumbling and many groups are not happy with what they see happening to their people and culture. Islamic fundamentalists see a Western invasion. Christians see decaying family and national values. The French see cultural pollution. The scientific community sees a rising tide of superstition and non-rational belief. Everyone sees an unwelcome intrusion into their turf.

This hamster’s opinion is that science is winning the struggle for mind share. This may create a dangerous backlash as competing belief systems struggle to survive. In these tumultuous times science should be less arrogant. Be less disparaging of other belief systems. Be more open about the limits of science. Build bridges to other belief systems rather than erect barriers. Science is sufficiently compelling that a gentle hand reached outwards will encourage more scientific thinking than would rationality wielded as a club.

Finally, as to the question “Does God play dice?”

This hamster has had a personal experience that led this hamster to conclude that something plays dice and is damn good at it. This hamster doesn’t know whether that “something” is alive or is intelligent or is a force of nature. It remains unknown. This hamster would not accept such hearsay evidence from another person so does not offer it here. Nor did this hamster’s experience lead this hamster to conclude that there is a designer. This hamster concluded only that the world is stranger than this hamster would have believed. The experience left this hamster more accepting of different belief systems and less arrogant.

[Adam]

The eye is not proof of intelligent design. The eye is a collection of cells which were, over countrless generations exposed to the electromagnetic radiation which surrounds us, and eventually made use of that energy, just as our ears grew to make use of the vibrations around us. The size of these cells is roughly the size of the wavelength of light. If the cells were larger or smaller, they would have made use of different parts of the spectrum, and we'd be seeing in infrared or ultraviolet right now.

As for purpose... Why assume there is one at all? Do you really need one for your life to have meaning?

[John Como]

The question of purpose has puzzled mankind perhaps from Day 1 and some of us have never understood the terse response that life has meaning without purpose. Meaning what? Imahamster offers a lotta interesting words, methinks, but without saying anything. For my part (and ignoring all religious claptrap about gods and afterlife), I would say there are scientific explanations for our presence on this space pebble, and we are here - like other living organisms - through random occurrence, survival of the fittest, that sorta thing. Still in the early stages of human evolution, we may become something unimaginably wonderful in the long term. But it's doubtful. Our propensity for greed, violence, over-population, etc., is leading us to self-destruct (extinction) in the short term. In the meantime, have a nice day! Peace and goodwill.

John C.

[orthogonal]

I don't think much in terms of man's "purpose". The very word implies that man is here merely as a tool for some greater end. But one is then lead logically to ask what is the purpose of this next greater end. In other words; "A" exists for the greater good of "B". "B" exists for the greater good of "C"...ad infinitum.

I never look beyond man himself, or more specifically, beyond myself for a purpose. My own "purpose" is to experience beauty, to love, and to satisfy my insatiable curiosity. I serve no other master. I am not merely a gear in a larger machine. I am the master and the machine. My happy life is a purpose worthy of my life. In this rare instance I may pick myself up by my own bootstraps.

Concerning the design of the human eye:
Richard Dawkins in his book, The Blind Watchmaker, uses the eye as an example of why we might not be a result of intelligent design. The problem with the human eye is that it's designed backwards! Any engineer would design an eye such that the connecting nerves leading from the retina to the brain are taken off the back of the retina. Instead, the bundle of connecting nerves actually pass between the incoming light and the light sensitive retinal cells. (It would be equivalent to Newton designing his reflecting telescope such that one's head had to be placed at the focus, insuring that much of the incoming light is wasted against the back of one's head.)

The eyes of squids for example, which evolved quite seperately from human eyes, are designed in what we would see as a more intelligent manner; the nerves come off the back of the retina.

Michael

[Bebelina]

The beloved meaning of life concists very much for us humans of trying to find that out. And when we come to a point when we realize that we never can find that out, we still keep trying. It´s the ultimate riddle and we cherish it like the last caramel in the bowl.

[Merlijn]

Exactly Bebelina!

What is all that eye-nonsense? When I spoke of a "design" naturally I did not mean such a simple concept of an actual designer. I was merely wondering what the proof was for the purposelesness of the life, the universe and the rest (which was the original topic, wasn't it?).
There may very well be a 'fuzzy' design: I can imagine a god/creator who has created a cosmic soup and gave the ingredients some kind of self-organizing properties. After a while life may evolve from this soup. the processes in the soup may appear to be random, but the orinial idea was that it 'seeks out', if you will, complex structures.

As many may know, I believe in an absolute truth. I simply cannot accept a world view that is not based on the believe in mathematical and physical absoluteness. (so, it not only ethics I am copncreaned about ;))
Besides, whithout the believe in an absolute truth, one denies oneself every ground of credibility: without an absolute truth one indirectly claims to have no evidence whatsoever.

From the believe in a 'Platonic' world of absolute ideas it is a small step to believing in a purpose to existence.
I have not yet figured out for myself whether I am willing to make that step.

Merlijn

[Imahamster]

Mathematicians have had to give up on “absolute truth”. Godel’s Incompleteness Theorem showed that in all but the simplest formal systems there exist propositions that can neither be proved nor disproved. Godel’s theorem applies to all mathematical systems that are commonly used. It also applies to computer languages.

Furthermore all but simple mathematical systems cannot be proven to be consistent. There remains a possibility that a statement may be shown to be both “true” and “false”. That would mean the original axioms of the formal system were inconsistent.

(During the early 1900’s a number of mathematicians tried to build an “absolutely true” mathematical system. When Godel proved it could not be done there was a crisis of faith in the mathematical community. Later generations of mathematicians have learned to live with less certitude.)

There is less “absolute truth” in mathematics than is commonly believed.

There is a middle ground between “absolute truth” and “no evidence whatsoever”. That middle ground is the home of mathematics and science.

(The above is the absolute truth. Hehe.)

[Merlijn]

Hi Imahamster,
It's a good point you have there, but it is not exactly what Goedel's theorem shows. It shows that in every possible set of formal rules there are thruths that cannot be proven to be true, and there are flases that cannot be proven to be so.

This does in no way challenge the idea of the existence of an absolute truth!

bye Merlijn

[Counterbalance]

Humanity is comprised of individual humans with individual minds and bodies. At any given time a human may make choices that lead one directly or indirectly to interact with other humans, or animals, or things. And we bring about this interaction by making, breaking, and re-forming various types of ’bonds,’ rather like atoms do when forming a molecule. Multiple bonds... mental, physical, emotional, spiritual. Aspects of our individual selves are what we make use of when bonding and trying to establish a workable symmetry that will ultimately allow us to create or to investigate other dimensions of identity for all the atom-humans involved--separately or as a whole. The en masse act of this never-ending event is what I would call “humanity.” And the purpose of “humanity,” I think, is to explore who we are, could be, or who we will never be for as long as we determine we have a good enough reason to do so.

Existence... is the dimensionless arena in which we carry out our “acts” of humanity.

[Counterbalance]

This hamster’s opinion is that science is winning the struggle for mind share. This may create a dangerous backlash as competing belief systems struggle to survive. In these tumultuous times science should be less arrogant. Be less disparaging of other belief systems. Be more open about the limits of science. Build bridges to other belief systems rather than erect barriers. Science is sufficiently compelling that a gentle hand reached outwards will encourage more scientific thinking than would rationality wielded as a club.



Dearest Hamster... Enjoyed your post. The only thing I would add is that the responsibility for bridge-building should fall to all who want see the true potential of Humankind realized.

~~~

Counterbalance

[Imahamster]

Merlijn, Imahamster agrees with your statement of Godel’s Theorem. There are several equivalent formulations of Godel’s Theorem. Godel’s Theorem is also equivalent to the “Halting Problem” in computer science. This hamster chose a formulation that avoided statements such as “there are truths that cannot be proven to be true”. To most people that sentence might seem to be nonsense. Only a person who already knew Godel’s Theorem would recognize that “proven to be true” had a precise definition involving a finite number of formal reasoning steps. While “there are truths” represents “truths” reached through mathematically acceptable rules of reasoning outside the formal system.

In this hamster’s opinion the mathematically acceptable rules of reasoning are themselves “non-provable”. They have served well through the explorations of math and science but ultimately this hamster is left wondering if a more intelligent entity could point out fundamental flaws. In this hamster’s opinion even the reasoning rules of mathematics and logic ultimately rest on the foundation of “they seem to work”. (Much as Newton’s classical physics usually “works”.)

The only challenge to “absolute truth” this hamster implied was that this hamster doubts the definition and source of “absolute truth” will derive from mathematics or science. (Nor does this hamster personally subscribe to any source of “absolute truths”. This hamster crawls on shaky ground.)

(Warning: rodents are often wrong. Accept rodent reasoning at your own risk.)

Fun chattering with you Merlijn.

[Imahamster]

Counterbalance, this hamster agrees. This hamster’s friends and associates tend to be scientists and rationalists. This hamster’s comments often reflect what this hamster would say to them. Mutual respect and cooperation is needed from all groups.

(This hamster liked the molecular analogy and reason for existence.)

[Science Geek]

In truth the only answer for this question is the one from within. I believe the answer is different for everyone. If you can find one thing over your entire lifetime that is more important that anything else, that will be the meaning of your life. My belief about humanities purpose is that we are supposed to be explorers and discoverers. We should preserve the Earth and all it's inhabitants as well as colonize other worlds and perhaps even make contact with other races. I think we are beings of great though unfulfilled destiny. The many begin with the one.

[John Como]

I don't agree that the only answer is the one from within. On the contrary, this imaginary meaning - different in each individual - is not the answer to the question of What is the purpose of life? Methinks people naturally adopt this position to extract some personal and logical purpose in this vale of tears. Fact is, there ain't no universal purpose, other than basic survival. Having said this, I do agree that we are extremely distant from our great potential (destiny).

John C.

[TruthSeeker]

The simplest answer is: To discover Yourself. :)
It's a good idea ask now because most people ask this when they are dying (when they care about it).
You are also special. There is anyone in the world exactly like you. You may find many people that share the same ideas with you, but they will always have something different.
If you are different, you are here to change the world. You are here to make something.
So, don't stay there watching TV and playing computer games!! (If you do so...). Discover yourself and you will discover what you are here for (in the humanity scale).
For more information see my signature (below) and my posts.

Blessings,
Nelson

[John Como]

Discovering yourself is an answer for peace of mind, perhaps, but is not connected to life's purpose. Six thousand four-hundred and fifty-one examples spring to mind, however I will mention only one: Supposing one "discovers" him or herself to be a paranoid schizophrenic killer of small animals. Then what? Does he/she therefore discover what they're here for? The fact that we're all slightly different does not mean we're here to change the world, no, all it means is that we're all slightly different. Some seekers of truth, methinks, are looking in the wrong direction. As for not watching TV nor playing computer games, I dunno. For some, this is the best lifestyle possible and because I consider mine is on a higher and more productive level is okay, but rather irrelevant and unapplicable to someone else. Peace and goodwill.

John C.

[TruthSeeker]

Read my others posts... they explain about the same thing... :)
Even with many examples, I prefer to rely in my own experiences and in my Spirit to explain those things to you and other people.
The Truth is relative if you look to your mind. You have a dualist mind. This means that you differentiate the oposites.
But the Truth is NOT relative if you look to your Heart. In your Heart, you find yourself, your True Self. This is the Ultimate purpose of the Religion. And Junguian Pscicology explain this.
Your mind gives you only confusion. There are hundreds of Religions, Sciences and Phylosophies all around the world. But if you rely in yourself, what can confuses you?
You are here to wake up. You are a child sleeping in your bed, still with your thumb in your mouth... :D.
Discover yourself doesn't means to discover your personality. It means to discover who you really are. You can have a stupid personality like in your example: "paranoid schizophrenic killer of small animals". But your True Self is never like this.
Your True Self is wise and is a Love Spirit, a Spirit of Light (is actually made by a subtle and gentle form of light). You (and everyone) have much more power than you can imagine. And I can prove this using even science... if you doubt...
To finish, you understood wrong the fact that we are here to change the world because we are different. We have the oportunity to change the world. You can contribute to change the world if you are more compassionate for example. And you can also contribute to change the world if you want to destroy people (this is very sad, but is true). But if you discover your True Self, that you are a Love Spirit, then you can REALLY change the world, because the Truth will give you so much power that you will make all the difference.

Advice1: It's very sad to live a lifestyle watching TV and playing computer. Look to your window... you have a huge world to explore! These things make you unaware and sometimes even depressed (It doesn't seem to be your case). Live a simpler and healthier life more aware about the nature and the world you live in. I'll talk more about this later in my next posts...

Advice2: Always when you think about changing the world, think about your children (if you don't have, the children you will have), your family, your friends and all those who you love. Which world do you want for them? And also, learn to Love everyone (mainly your enemies, they need much more than your friends!!). Everything that you give, you will receive back.

Blessings,
Nelson

[John Como]

What works for TruthSeeker does not necessarily work for the other 6-billion-plus (9-billion by the year 2050 if homo sapiens are still around). He speaks of mind and spirit and heart. I cannot speak for others but for me, everything boils down to one level: the evolving human brain from whence comes all perceptions of truth and love and religion. Imagination. As for describing one's true self as a love spirit, a spirit of light... hmmmm? Sounds warm and fuzzy, but methinks it's an unscientific crock. Each of us does indeed change the world, albeit infinitesimally. No argument. But this just happens, it's not your purpose and it's not mine. Personally, I live a very healthy life, both physically and mentally (for example, playing baseball and chess, writing and editing) and have no time for T-V or computer games... but I understand that some folks are really hooked on both and it's not for me to judge whether this is good or bad.

TruthSeeker would have us love everyone, mainly our enemies. Sounds like a warm and fuzzy echo of JC (not John Como). Anyway, this doesn't apply to me since I love wife and kids and am loved in return, and have no enemies. At least, none that I know of. Cheers.

John C.

[TruthSeeker]

Why everyone LOVES the human brain?!?!?
What's wrong with you people? Can't you stop a little bit and live your lives?!? Experience Life!!!!!!
Love is essential. This is why our world is like this!! People thinks that knowledge is more important than Love!!
Jesus Christ was one of the most wise people, if not the wisest, that lived in our world. If you don't Love your enemies, who will Love them? Who will help them?

If we don't learn compassion, our world will turn into a piece of junk. Is this the world you want for your children? Care about other people. And Love yourselves too...

Blessings,
Nelson

[John Como]

Nelson's unsolicited advice and hostile preaching raise the question of whether he brought all the answers into Canada, or picked up some of them here. Whatever the case, methinks the lad - I'm assuming TruthSeeker is a youth - protests too much about Love and Compassion, perhaps reflecting a personal shortage of same. He urges you people to experience life, presumably his kind of life. If I'm included among "you people", I think I'll pass, thanks anyway. In any event, and again in my humble opinion, the handle TruthSeeker is definitely a misnomer. Peace and goodwill.

JC (Superstar) Como

[TruthSeeker]

You are right, in part...
Yes, I'm not very Loved, and do you know why?
Because I always say the Truth.
Most people like me, as I am simple and kind with everyone. But I need to fight for people anyways. I need to show you the real importance of Love and Compassion. It's just my work... I'm here for a long time trying to explain many people about the true importance of Love and you keep asking for knowledge!!
If you want to understand me, just look to yourself, and follow what I wrote here below... in my signature.
I, "unfortunately", care about people. And it's why I'm here, to ask you, people... :), to experience yourselves.
I'm extremely alone... physicaly... but all wise people passed through this process of loneliness in their early years.
If you don't pass through this loneliness, which creates an intimate contact with your Inner-Self, you will never be wise. This loneliness, this lack of Love from other people, it's what made wise people wise. And this is why all wise people, like Jesus, allways preached Love and Compassion... :)

Blessings,
Nelson

[Counterbalance]

Hi TruthSeeker...

If it matters to you to know, then please be aware that some of us here are capable of understanding that you “care” as well as able to understand at least part of why you care. However, your idea of what it is to care, love, understand, be wise, etc... are not the same as everyone else’s ideas, and it is unrealistic to expect everyone to embrace your interpretations, nor is it going to help you get across your message by making far too many assumptions about what the rest of us think or feel--or why we think it or feel it--or to continually assert that we are all wrong.

I don’t wish to sound harsh or overly critical, but do respectfully suggest that you re-examine your own level of understanding. What is truth to you is your truth. How you define that “truth” may change over time. I, for one, am content to let you believe what you will, think or feel as you will. I hope you can see how others might appreciate the same courtesy from you.

Peace,

Counterbalance

[TruthSeeker]

I'm not talking about MY Truth. I' talking about a Highter Truth. If you read my posts, you will find out that my ideas are general (mainly to wise people that lived and live in our world). My idea of Love and Compassion have been transmitted by many wise people such as Jesus, Madre Theresa de Calcuta (look in this site, and you shall see my own ideas!! : http://www.judithcorsino.com/teresa2.htm) and Dalai Lama.

Again I say, these are ideas that all wise people teach in the world... and I'm finding out that it seems that I'm one of them.

Any question, do it.

Blessings,
Nelson

[John Como]

All kinds of religionists spout what they claim are higher truths, since they're self-appointed representatives of a non-existent god. As for the biblical version of JC and that self-promoted saint known as Mother Theresa (in my opinion, a deranged fundraiser), there have been and still are many wiser men and women on this insignificant marble in space. At least, that's the way I see it on this frosty first of February 2002.

John C.

[TruthSeeker]

Who told you that God doesn't exists? Only because you can't see the wind, or the atoms, does this means that they don't exist? Think about it. Even you believe in things that you can't see...

What is Wisdom for you? Your stupid theories of nothing? What is the world without Love? Imagine your life without Love and you'll see what I'm talking about (if you still have feelings...).

Hopes for your Heart,
Nelson

[John Como]

Verily I say unto thee, TruthSeeker, look no farther for thou hast found religion and, although yours does not apply to most of earth's inhabitants, go in peace. You will encounter trouble only when you insist that others share your nonsensical fervour. Atheism, incidentally, is not based on sight, nor on any other physical sense, but rather on logic andc reason, a disbelief in fairytales and religion, the biggest scam in history. Have a nice day...

John C.

[TruthSeeker]

I don't apply? Well, you can be sure that I don't apply for most of them. How many people pass a message of Love in this world? Osama Bin Laden... :confused:??? You can be sure not...

Look, only because I'm a minority today, it doesn't means that I'll ever be. Someday you will see what I'm talking about... :D
You see that my ideas don't apply to most of people. Yes, it's true. And this is why the world is like this, so violent. Meaningless violence...

Many people tryed to pass the same message and most of them were, and are still persecuted, like me. But you can be sure that if I won't be the last one, I'm one of the last ones. If I don't make your world understand what I'm talking about, it will be the next one.

Atheism, incidentally, is not based on sight, nor on any other physical sense, but rather on logic andc reason, a disbelief in fairytales and religion, the biggest scam in history.

This is why I completely deny Science, because you completely deny Religion. They are both right. It's because you use so much logic and reason, that the world losts it's beauty and your life became meaningless. Than you have to give a meaning to your life and start to watch TV, play computer games and whatever. In thebest of case (for atheists), you go to Science. But Science still doesn't answer your question, and you die asking yourself: why all this? Why I had a life? This is said and pathetic but it's what most happen in the world nowdays...
Well, have a nice day you too...

Blessings,
Nelson

[John Como]

Whereas he ignores the calming wisdom of Counterbalance, this so-called seeker of Truth insists on twisting and misinterpreting each sentence of mine. Anybody know why? For example, I suggest that his religion (Christianity) does not apply to the majority of the population, and his reply is "I don't apply?" and he's being persecuted for preaching a message of love and if he doesn't "make your world understand" what he's talking about... Presumably this means we're not sharing the same world which, he contends, has lost its beauty and my life (atheists or Como's personal existence?) has become meaningless because of logic and reason. Nonsense, the exact opposite is closer to the truth, if one were actually seeking it. Some Seekers, I've been told, should simply be ignored. Done.

What I do find disturbing, however, are misunderstandings and misinterpretations on this message board and others. Clarity and precision have long been of special interest to me, and I consider it a bit of a failure when my opinions are not only misunderstood but twisted into an unrecognizable mess. Like something my old dog might have thrown up. Am currently editing/rewriting a textbook on the psychology of language, including a few chapters on clear communications, and just when I was getting a handle on the subject, along comes another unintelligible Seeker! So long, pal. I leave it to others to continue this thread... Peace and goodwill.

John C.

[Counterbalance]

What I do find disturbing, however, are misunderstandings and misinterpretations on this message board and others. Clarity and precision have long been of special interest to me, and I consider it a bit of a failure when my opinions are not only misunderstood but twisted into an unrecognizable mess.

Understandable, J.C., how a writer (of anything) could feel that kind of disappointment. Tough enough to convey precise meaning between like-minded individuals, let alone between those who aren’t. Utterly baffling sometimes how difficult it can be to keep the simplest of remarks from being misconstrued. Excellent fodder for a new thread, I’d say. ;)

As I see it, what we've witnessed here are “acts” of humanity instigated by an individual who is driven by fear-, pain-, and guilt-based love to “bond“ with others. Work that idea over for a bit and we might just end up with someone who is seeking to define and/or validate who they are and why they are; a kind of identification process, involving some telling reactions and projections.

Ironic, huh?

Appreciate the kind words and encourage you to continue with your book.

Counterbalance

P.S. I probably could have written the above in a more "kindly" tone, but this does seem to be a case where it matters very little what is said when it's not a clear-cut agreement. No offense intended, regardless.

[TruthSeeker]

Fight with two swords... against two people... at the same time...

First to John...

Anybody know why? For example, I suggest that his religion (Christianity) does not apply to the majority of the population, and his reply is "I don't apply?" and he's being persecuted for preaching a message of love and if he doesn't "make your world understand" what he's talking about... Presumably this means we're not sharing the same world which, he contends, has lost its beauty and my life (atheists or Como's personal existence?) has become meaningless because of logic and reason.

Christianism is the biggest Religion of the world. This clarily makes everyone with good sense doubt about your statements...
When I told that I'm here to make YOUR world understand it, I was saying that we live in different realities... The difference, is that my reality is Highter than yours... Eventhough my Spirit is not from here anyways... About the meaning of life... is it beautiful to live in the middle of gray labirinths such as cities? I prefer much more nature... that is calm and simple... :)

About your last paragraph, everyone with good sense can see that my posys have clarity (eventhough I have some limits with your language, but I try to write it in other ways, with the words I know).

Now, to counterbalance,

This is what I have to say for your first paragraph... :):

What I do find disturbing, however, are misunderstandings and misinterpretations on this message board and others. Clarity and precision have long been of special interest to me, and I consider it a bit of a failure when my opinions are not only misunderstood but twisted into an unrecognizable mess.

... :D...
... :bugeye:...
...

About the second, it only shows that you don't even have intelligence enough to understand a simple message of Love. If you have a girlfriend, I have pity of her... :rolleyes:

I won't teach you two anymore. I'll give the task to a friend. For in the Word is said:

Matthew 7:6
"Don't give holy things to depraved men. Don't give pearls to swine! They will trample the pearls and turn to attack you."

It was a prophecy...

Blessings... :D,
Nelson

[Cris]

truthseeker,

I won't teach you two anymore. Teaching? Huh! You've been dreaming again.

So you've decided to give up again when faced with intelligent reasoning.

You should re-think your strategy since you seem to be running out of people here who might be prepared to listen to you. Your condescending attitude guarantees you will lose both respect and any freindship that might have been shown you.

If you are lonely and unloved then I can see why judging from your attitudes here.

Rather than try to tell others what to think, you should first learn how to think clearly for yourself. And then lose your pride and find some humility. If you are truly seeking truth then you need to learn to ask questions. Your attitude so far shows you think you have found truth and are attempting to force your ideas on others. When you can come to terms with your immaturity you might then understand how foolish you currently appear.

Cris

[Adam]

TruthSeeker, you mentioned not being able to see the wind. I know I'm splitting very fine hairs by saying this, but the truth is you can see the wind. Wind is a movement of particles caused by temperature differences. That's all. If some larger particles, such as dust or ash for example, start moving about and you can see them, well, it's still a movement of particles, same cause and effect and all. You can see wind. But that's me being ridiculously picky.

[TruthSeeker]

Cris,
Who is the fool? Everyone should say:
"Everyone is crazy... besides me."

Why? Because everyone has their own Truths. But there is a Highter Truth that you can find only within yourself. And with this, I can't teach or help you with. The immature here is you, who is an adult, probably in your 30 or 40 years discussing with a child of 17 years, which is trying to tell you that the Highter Truth is within yourselves. And I don't even speak English... I began speaking it some months ago...
I passed the message. Now I can only hope that you understood it.

Blessings,
Nelson

[TruthSeeker]

Adam,
You know that the wind exists with your naked eyes because you see the dust or ash. It is just an indicator of its existence. You can't see the wind itself. It's like search for Black Holes using Graviting Lens... when the light from a galaxy, for example, is distorted by the gravity of a nearby Black Hole. You can't see the Black Hole itself, but you know that it exists because of the interaction it has with the galaxy.

Blessings,
Nelson

[Cris]

TruthSeeker,

If you really only started English a few months ago then you are doing very well, it is a credit to you.

Because everyone has their own Truths. Truth is truth and is independent of what anyone thinks or believes. I think what you really mean is that everyone has their own beliefs.

But there is a Highter Truth that you can find only within yourself. Again the word ‘truth’ doesn’t really make sense here. Something is either true or it isn’t, there are no variations of degree. So I really don’t know what you mean by a higher inner truth unless you are referring to warm fuzzy feelings again (emotions).

So for the record, again: A truth (knowledge) can only be established by evidence and proofs. A feeling that something is true offers no certainty that the subject is true or false. Choosing to believe something as true that may well be false is both dangerous and irrational.

The immature here is you, who is an adult, probably in your 30 or 40 years discussing with a child of 17 years, which is trying to tell you that the Highter Truth is within yourselves. For the record I am 49 and I have three teenage daughters, 15, 17, and 19, so I have plenty of experience talking with teenagers. So why do you feel justified in claiming that your belief is more accurate than someone who is nearly 3 times your age? Don’t you think that maybe you might still have some things to learn?

Take care.
Cris

[TruthSeeker]

Cris,

Truth is truth and is independent of what anyone thinks or believes. I think what you really mean is that everyone has their own beliefs.

Yes, it is what I meant.

Again the word ‘truth’ doesn’t really make sense here. Something is either true or it isn’t, there are no variations of degree. So I really don’t know what you mean by a higher inner truth unless you are referring to warm fuzzy feelings again (emotions).

No feelings here. This means that the real Wisdom is to know yourself. If you start to know yourself better, Life start to make sense for you. You don't do so many mistakes as before.

For the record I am 49 and I have three teenage daughters, 15, 17, and 19, so I have plenty of experience talking with teenagers. So why do you feel justified in claiming that your belief is more accurate than someone who is nearly 3 times your age? Don’t you think that maybe you might still have some things to learn?

Beliefs can't be discussed. Two separeted realities can't live together. Beliefs don't have age.

Blessings,
Nelson

[Cris]

Truthseeker,

This means that the real Wisdom is to know yourself. If you start to know yourself better, Life start to make sense for you. You don't do so many mistakes as before. I would agree that knowing yourself is probably one of the most important things that any person should strive to achieve. But I don’t think it needs any religion to aid that process, quite the contrary since religion tends to confuse self with supernatural influences making it almost impossible for any person to disentangle who they are from what their religion says they are.

Beliefs can't be discussed. Two separeted realities can't live together. Beliefs don't have age. This sounds like you are a little confused. Sorry I’m not quite sure what you are trying to say here.

Many people change their beliefs frequently, while others take many years to develop satisfying beliefs. But aren’t we discussing our beliefs in these forums?

So what do you mean by two separated realities?

Take care
Cris

[TruthSeeker]

Cris,

I would agree that knowing yourself is probably one of the most important things that any person should strive to achieve. But I don’t think it needs any religion to aid that process, quite the contrary since religion tends to confuse self with supernatural influences making it almost impossible for any person to disentangle who they are from what their religion says they are.

Look for books about Junguian Pscicology... I tried to find here in the net but I couldn't. The Freudic Pscicology is unfortunatelly much more difunded.

So what do you mean by two separated realities?

Sorry... a friend wanted to use the computer to look for which coat make him better-looking... superficialist society... I had to write it too quickly to explain...
I meant that two different beliefs of two different people can't fit together. They create a conflict. They are two separated realities. For example, my reality is different than yours, and then Bebelina's... simply because we have different life experiences which creates our different beliefs... ;)

Blessings,
Nelson