a disordered bang and crunch

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by mister62, Jan 22, 2002.

  1. mister62 Good Gravy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    35
    Having just finished reading "A Brief History of Time," and still buzzing from from an espresso milk concoction i brewed earlier, instead of falling into a sleepy state i'm jittery, unable to keep myself from twitching, and full of questions, but one seems to burn especially inside the back of my mind, or the front, i can't tell, i'm not thinking exactly straight, but here goes nothing.

    Hawking describes that in going into the big crunch, disorder would not start to decrease, it would continue to increase (

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    ). In other words, things wouldn't start going backward, they would keep going forward until somehow, a completely ordered state would in the end, win out, causing another infinitely dense ball of mass. Maybe i missed something while reading, but it seems that Hawking suddenly goes into a different subject, seemingly skirting a subject that caught my attention. Anyway, while reading, i began to formulate a question that, as far as i could tell, had not been thought of.

    It seems that people do not want to accept that perfect order will end up after intense disorder, but, as described also in the book, it seems to me that it is perfectly logical that it could. Using Hawking's earlier example of disorder by shaking up a puzzle box with a completed puzzle inside, that as time goes on, more activity results in more disorder, and order becomes a smaller piece of the cosmic pie, couldn't one argue (much like i am doing), that, sooner or later, if the box keeps shaking, the pieces will eventually just all click into place? In other words, could disorder reach some incredibly gigantic proportional limit and then just suddenly crunch?

    So instead of a model of disorder and order like the earth (where the north pole is the beginning of the universe as we know it, the south pole is the end, and the equator as the point of the limit of disorder before it begins to diminish), it would be something like a teardrop with the widest point cut off abruptly.

    /\ Big Bang
    / \
    / \ TIME
    / \ <= Disorder l
    / \ \/
    / \
    / \
    \___________/
    <= Big Crunch

    Out of this, spawns another theory: If our universe started from an infinately dense mass of matter, and it ends much the same, couldn't it just start over again, causing a never-ending chain, where what we are focusing on is just one link?

    Here's what the chain would look like if this is true:


    /\
    / \
    / \
    / \
    / \
    / \
    / \
    \___________/
    /\
    / \
    / \
    / \
    / \
    / \
    / \
    \___________/
    /\
    / \
    / \
    / \
    / \
    / \
    / \
    \___________/


    I'm not too sure about all this, my opinion kept shifting as i wrote this, and new ideas began to formulate, so i'm really unsure. I'll have to read this over a bit before i understand it completely myself. Anyway, all i want to know right now is:

    What do YOU think? :bugeye:
     
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  3. mister62 Good Gravy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    35
    #@$!%#

    for some reason, my diagrams did not work, however, i will try to make them work.



    FIRST DIAGRAM:


    ................/\.................<=Big Bang
    ...............//\\
    .............///l\\\..............................TIME ..
    .........../////\\\\\........<= Disorder l
    .........//////l\\\\\\\ \/
    .......////////\\\\\\\\\
    ...../////////l\\\\\\\\\\
    .....\\\\\\\\\l//////////
    ...............\l/..............<= Big Crunch



    SECOND DIAGRAM:

    ................/\
    ...............//\\
    .............///l\\\
    .........../////\\\\\
    .........//////l\\\\\\\
    .......////////\\\\\\\\\
    ...../////////l\\\\\\\\\\
    .....\\\\\\\\\l//////////
    ...............\l/
    ................/\
    ...............//\\
    .............///l\\\
    .........../////\\\\\
    .........//////l\\\\\\\
    .......////////\\\\\\\\\
    ...../////////l\\\\\\\\\\
    .....\\\\\\\\\l//////////
    ...............\l/
    ................/\
    ...............//\\
    .............///l\\\
    .........../////\\\\\
    .........//////l\\\\\\\
    .......////////\\\\\\\\\
    ...../////////l\\\\\\\\\\
    .....\\\\\\\\\l//////////
    ...............\l/
    ................/\
    ...............//\\
    .............///l\\\
    .........../////\\\\\
    .........//////l\\\\\\\
    .......////////\\\\\\\\\
    ...../////////l\\\\\\\\\\
    .....\\\\\\\\\l//////////
    ...............\l/






    Thanks
     
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  5. mister62 Good Gravy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    35
    one small revision...

    in the diagrams, time is measured from top to bottom.



    OKAY.
    I THINK I'M DONE NOW.

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  7. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,162
    The Future of the Universe

    Interesting...
    I wouldn't like to confuse you, but I don't think there will be a Big Crunch... I think the Universe will expands until its Event Horizont is broken, when it reaches the limit of its acceleration. Than, our Black Holes will loose their Event Horizonts too, and everything will plunge in what I call the Third Vacuum, where the Universes are formed. The Third Vacuum has much more energy then the Second Vacuum that we call Space...

    There is much more about this theory, but I don't like very much to reveal those things to people...

    I used to think like you... but with the theory of the acceleration of the expansion of the Universe, I had to begin everything again. The, I got this theory while I was reading about Hinduism...

    Blessings,
    Nelson
     
  8. mister62 Good Gravy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    35
    you've hooked me

    Please, reveal just a little more, i especially like this idea that you describe. I WANT, no NEED TO KNOW MORE. My mind is a greedy sponge that anxiously wants to know as much as possible and if you could appease me it would be delightful. I don't have any exact e-mail address (I don't have anyone i talk to with it, usually i just use it to send myself things when i don't have a floppy disk or printer and need to print off someplace else), but one could be activated if the need arises. I'll have to brush up some more on Event Horizons to perfectly understand the theory you propose, but i like it. Please tell me more.
     
  9. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,162
    mister62,

    Sure! But first... do you know how can I publish it?

    Blessings,
    Nelson
     
  10. Ender Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    294
    WHAT?

    Concider this

    Energy cannot be created or distroyed right? (Law of the conservation of Energy) If the universe contunies to expane, then the energy could become less and less to accoumedate the excess space. (diffusion of Energy) With less engery, then everything would eventually freeze over. (Brrrr...)

    Of cource this wouldn't happen for a very long time, and life on earth would be long dead befor absolute zero is reached.

    Unless the universe started its big crunch, in which case everything would get really hot. (sizzle sizzle...)

    Of cource, the earth would be a big ball of lave befor teh edge of the univers came to close.

    SO either the universe will end by fire or ice. Either way i won't be here.
     
  11. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,162
    Old ideas...

    Ender,

    Your ideas are too common...

    Yes... there is a theory about this. If the Universe expands forever this will happen. When I fist saw this theory (about July last year) my theory was completely different. It said that the Universes have everlasting Big Bangs and Big Crunchs. When I saw it, I had to think again. Then I came up with the idea of the Event Horizon Collapse.

    Yes. About 30 billion years. It's the average age of an Universe death. At this point even the protons outside Black Holes and Gravastars would be decayed.


    I have changed my theory many times, as the Cosmology evolutes. For example, the idea of Gravastars gave me the inspiration of Universe Evolution. I will post later all the theory I got now.

    Blessings,
    Nelson
     
  12. Ender Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    294
    THANKS

    Concider this

    I eagerly await your post!
     
  13. Pollux V Ra Bless America Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    6,495
    I formed a theory once, after watching a Nova on PBS telling about how astronomers had recently discovered that the Universe would not in fact contract but continuously expand. Then as my knowledge of dark matter (a very small collection of information) increased this is what I formulated:

    -When the universe grows to a gigantic size the sparse regions of little or no matter that are actually more common than galaxies themselves (dead space, total vacuums with no minerals whatsoever) will tear as it continues to stretch, opening the very fabric of space to another dimension on another layer of everything. Here's a diagram-

    Alternate Dimension above us________________
    Our dimension_________#___#_____#_______
    ..................................dimensional rifts are the # signs
    Like covers on a bed, if one is torn it opens up to another.

    -As for dark matter, for every constant in the universe there is an opposite, so if the universe expands, galaxies, little universes of their own, contract, for the same unknown reason that galaxies expand. The answer is dark matter, and light matter, the latter the cause of the expansion of the universe (which has been going on forever), the first the cause of the contraction of galaxies, to hold stars together, and keep them from falling into other dimensions.

    *Phew* I think I'm done.
     
  14. mister62 Good Gravy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    35
    sorry Nelson, I don't know any publishers or whatnot. I can't help you there. But if you do consider publishing, I shall be anxious to read it. I've found my throeries to be already pondered, to really form a good idea I have to learn more.
    Thanks anyway.

    Mister Joe

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  15. TruthSeeker Fancy Virtual Reality Monkey Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    15,162
    mister62,

    I'll get all my ideas together and put them here.
    If it's right, it will explain the evolution of the Universe!
    It will explain how an Universe born, die and REPRODUCE!

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    They are pretty crazy ideas, but really possible ones...

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    Blessings,
    Nelson
     
  16. thed IT Gopher Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,105
    To be honest, no one really knows what the fate of the Universe really is.

    As I'm sure many of you know this all depends on the mass of the Universe. Theorists prefer the critical solution of &omega;<sub>0</sub> = 1 but observation lends itself to an open universe where &omega;<sub>0</sub> << 1. The problem is that theory then says we should not have structure. The Universe would be formed of isotropic, cold gas and dust.

    This is an area where great work is being done and many new experiments are being planned to get a handle on what the Universe really looks like.

    Last I heard, Hawking was proposing as solution of the Big Bang where no singularity resides but rather an Instanton
     

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