freedoms are goin...speak OUT!!

Discussion in 'Politics' started by duendy, Feb 21, 2006.

  1. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    6,585
    read this article 'Blair's new laws leave us at the mercy of future tyrants'
    http://politics.guardian.co.uk/homeaffairs/comment/0,,1713141,00.html

    I implore you to realize that te fight ia on to save our society from this nightmare, to put your fears into perspective and to make every politician understand tat tis is something the pople will not tolerate. There has not bee a moe important struggle in Britain in the past 50 years"

    so speak out about this shit

    also, i'd be really interested to see how similar fascist moves are happening for others in different locations round world?
     
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  3. Light Registered Senior Member

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    Well! That was one very wordy article but it certainly didn't live up to it's title. What are the contents of this terrible law? The only thing I saw was one tiny paragraph:

    "The Lords may offer some brief opposition, but it seems certain that Britons will be compulsorily required to hold an identity card and see 50 separate pieces of information, including biometric details, entered on a national database to which many arms of government, including MI5, will have access. The thought is chilling."

    Is THAT what your tiny little mind is so terrified of, Duendy?
     
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  5. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    Light, the new laws are a gross violation of civil liberties. They are wholly unecessary. They achieve nothing of value. They offer only the opportunity for future abuse. I fully expect to spend several years of my retirement behind bars for violating them. You may consider them benign. I do not.
     
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  7. Light Registered Senior Member

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    I'm quite willing to have my mind changed (always). Could you provide some details? That one article was pretty thin on information.
     
  8. AmishRakeFight Remember, remember. Registered Senior Member

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    I'm waiting too.

    AmishRakeFight
     
  9. Light Registered Senior Member

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    We only need to be patient. Ophiolite is very dependable and you can count on him to explain the parts we're missing or give us some good links to them.

    Living in the U.S., I'm not as aware as I possibly should be of what is going on law-wise in the UK.

    As an aside, we've had a bit of a flap here in the States about the National ID Card thing. It really doesn't bother me. We've all had driver's licenses for identity purposes for years and many of them now contain some personal information like fingerprints. And I'm not concerned if they can track me to the grocery store or discover the favorite cereal that I buy.

    Personally, I think the only ones who would really worry about it are those with something to hide. Like dead-beat dads on the run from child support, people with outstanding warrants for arrest - things like that.
     
  10. Cottontop3000 Death Beckoned Registered Senior Member

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    That may be true, now, but they are not the only ones who should be worried about it, imo. I see a trend towards more control by the government and less liberty for the people (for our protection, of course). I don't trust our government to be fair and impartial, and not to abuse, this information, if THEY think the need exists. We are continuing down the road from democracy, where the masses tell the government how to govern, to something more like oligarchy, where the few in power (whether elected or not), tell the people how they should and should not live their lives, based on narrow standards. I think this is very important, here in America as well as in all other "democracies" world-wide.
     
  11. Light Registered Senior Member

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    2,258
    That's an excellent point, Cotton! I think (and hope) it would be stopped before it went too far. In general, Americans are pretty independent and prize their freedom. I believe they'll only stand for so much.
     
  12. Cottontop3000 Death Beckoned Registered Senior Member

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    2,959
    Yes, I think I remember you saying this before, and I really hope you are right. If the American people aren't aware that it is happening though, and I think most aren't or don't care enough or won't even entertain the notion for whatever reason, they may lose everything before they have a chance to stop it. I don't know the specifics of how this might be done, but there are many ways possible. From more "terrorist" attacks, where the people are willing to give up more freedom, to a coup d'etat through the imposition of martial law, to a silent takeover in which people don't even know it's happened, until the cops show up at their door. Control of people's perceptions is key, and it wouldn't hurt to have a lot of control over most "reputable" news sources. If you start giving up a few liberties now, and a few more next year, where will you draw the line? I think it should be drawn now. Clear as day.
     
  13. QuarkMoon I Registered Senior Member

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    773
    I would do the same if that kind of policy made it to the U.S., except I would be giving up my prime years (I'm 19-years-old). Compulsory usage of biogenetic ID tags and chips that they implant into your wrist or something is going too far. I would do everything in my power to stop it.
     
  14. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    Thank you for your confidence. This is a difficult one since in this instance you are asking me to condense half a century of the experiences, observations and evidence that have led me to the conclusion that ID cards, in the British form, are a major threat to individual freedoms.

    I shall attempt to find some recent article from a UK paper that captures at least the flavour of my concerns. Don't wait up. Unlike you I am not retired.

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    I'll briefly say this: from my perspective governments are there to serve the people. Not the other way around. They should do our bidding, not we, theirs. ID cards place to much power into their hands. I believe in government control over organisations, not over people. People need to be central to everything, with maximum freedom possible for each, so long as that freedom does not unreasonably curtail the freedom of others.
     
  15. leopold Valued Senior Member

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    the next to last paragraph of duendys link states:

    People insist that we are not living in a police state but perhaps that is rather a 20th-century notion. What we are pioneering in Britain is a 21st-century version of the police state - the controlled state.

    now the comment i have is this
    if we are truely to be free then we must be controlled, either through morals or by law. quite possibly both
     
  16. leopold Valued Senior Member

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    it bothers me, and it should bother you light
    maybe when you have to pay a fine for your 6 year old son/daughter being out in public without a license will change your mind.

    i already know what you are going to say "a national id card is not a license"
    well i beg to differ
    a national id card is a license for you to appear in public

    i will fight it to my dying breath
     
  17. leopold Valued Senior Member

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    i do not fit any of the above, and i HATE THE IDEA of a national id card


    i vote no on national id cards !
     
  18. Ophiolite Valued Senior Member

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    Originally Posted by Light
    Personally, I think the only ones who would really worry about it are those with something to hide.

    When the government is making the laws in an unmonitored fashion all of us become potential lawbreakers.
     
  19. Light Registered Senior Member

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    I agree wholeheartedly with that.

    And I also agree with the unstated idea that governments not only have a tendency to assume they know "what the people need better than the people themselves" but actively work toward that. It reminds me very much of religious leaders who tell their followers "Never mind what the scriptures say, I'll tell you what they mean!"

    You are quite welcome to the confidence I expressed, Ophiolite, because you have earned it here. And don't worry, I'm very patient. Also, I apologize because I had no idea of the magnitude of what I had asked of you. I was thinking (perhaps hoping?) that there might be a current article in the British press that would detail or at least outline what must be some sweeping curtailments of citizen's rights under newly proposed British law. Perhaps something akin to the American Patriot's Act.
     
  20. Light Registered Senior Member

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    2,258
    I think that's being a bit extreme, Leo.

    Also, I have to say there's a part of it that's appealing to me. Currently, a wanted child-molester in Ohio needs only to go to another state to avoid being caught because there's no certain means of identifying him. Shucks, for that matter he can even stay in Ohio and use an assumed name. As long as he doesn't drive a car he really needs NO identification of any kind.

    And the same applies to any other kind of crook. Why do you think there are thousands of them roaming around today uncaught?
     
  21. leopold Valued Senior Member

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    17,455
    some years back they was fingerprinting students.
    everyone of elementary age got fingerprinted, remember that?
    it was stated that it would help in child abductions
    but it didn't last long did it?
    why is that? its because people value their privacy
    i do not beleive this national id card will fly
     
  22. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    6,585
    tis is what i am hopin. power of people...

    what powers do, is try to hide behind propaganda. so let's root it out is what i say
     
  23. Neildo Gone Registered Senior Member

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    5,306
    Oh, gee, now that's comforting!

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    Does anyone else but me notice the oxymoron between "freedom" and "controlled state"?

    George Orwell, the visionary..

    - N
     

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