Danish Cartoons: Inciting Hatred or Freedom of Speech

Discussion in 'Politics' started by DiamondHearts, Feb 19, 2006.

  1. DiamondHearts Registered Senior Member

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    Take a look at this article about The Danish Cartoons:

    http://usa.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/26935

    Being a Muslim, I agree with this article. I found it very informative.

    I'm curious as to what everyone else thinks of this article. Please be respectful in your responses. Thanks.
     
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  3. Howdy Banned Banned

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  5. Zephyr Humans are ONE Registered Senior Member

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    Just one problem with that cartoon - Holocaust denial isn't punishable by law in Denmark.

    I'm still unsure of the newspaper's motives. I read somewhere that the cartoon contest was initiated after the author of a children's book about Muhammad (intended to educate about and reduce fear of Islam) couldn't find anyone prepared to illustrate it. On the other hand, if the Jyllands-Posten really did publish cartoons with the idea of inciting violence, that is despicable. But the Imams who took the cartoons to the Middle East and added in far more Islamophobic cartoons which JP hadn't published - while claiming that they had, in order to incite anger - are equally despicable.

    There are other threads on this topic, although most of them turned into shouting matches...
     
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  7. DiamondHearts Registered Senior Member

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    If you have seen the cartoons, it is quite obvious they were made to insult and humiliate the Muslim immigrants living in Denmark. The nature of the cartoons shows us that the cartoons have no intellectual benefit. Infact, many Muslims would look forward to an intellectual debate on Islam, but these cartoons weren't made for that purpose. According to the newspaper, they were made to test the limit of free speech. The same newspaper has a long history of anti-immigrant articles. The story is very long, but many conservative newspapers across the west have made the accusation that more cartoons were added. However, most people in the Muslim world did not actually see the cartoons, they only heard a description of the cartoons, particularly the one with bomb inside the turban. That is what prompted the riots and boycotts.
     
  8. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    And your take on the raging anti-Christian, anti-Jewish propaganda of mosques and media in the Middle East is what, then? Designed to promote friendship?

    Geoff
     
  9. duendy Registered Senior Member

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    i'll be honest. i HATE WEstern imperialsim and i HATEreligious and including Islami fundametialism. world is caufght in the cross fire of these two ideologies, though i'm aware much popganda is being conjured up by covert Western means

    if u get a chance plese read this article you will find in The Observer titled 'If Christianity is a legitimate target, why do we run scared from Islam?' by Nick Cohen -you can find article here, www.observer.co.uk Sorry i cant give you more direct link--my system is limited, but its quite qorth extre effrt to find

    basically what he's talking about is a the British artists, Gilbert and George's recent show, 'Sonofagod' where they show 'blasphemous' images etc of the Catholic/Christian beliefs----not THA long ago, theywoulda been burned at the stake etc for it, but now they know they'll mostly come to no harm/ YET there exists their --and othe artists of similar ilk--preteniousness that they are rattlig bourgeouses' world by doing it when really it is "but a smug affirmation of thecultural status quo'

    Jouranlist says that if they realll wanted to shck they would tackle Islamic religious fundamentalism. but obviously they wont go there for fear of.......So theree 'bold avante garde stance' is a paltry sham. hence 'avante garde is dead' claims Cohen

    but let me ask YPU directly. why is iy you?--Muslims are so much upset by som silly carttons people have been killed??
     
  10. deicide128 Registered Senior Member

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    either way its an overreaction. Boycott fine, burning buildings down and killing innocent people not cool. They are only fueling the stereotype that they are violent folk. Whats with them burning down American businesses in Pakistan? Like that’s going to hurt KFC? 1of 1000 stores destroyed OH NO they were shown what is up. Its only putting their own people out of work.

    The fact that cartoons can incite this kind of violence is just absurd especially when its from one paper in the tiny country of denmark. Then of course they made it a popular story by getting cranky and can only blame themselves for other newspapers running the cartoons.
     
  11. DiamondHearts Registered Senior Member

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    GeoffP, have you ever even been to a mosque. Anti-Christian and Anti-Jewish propaganda are not common in mosques across the world. If you had ever visited a mosque, you would understand this. You shouldn't talk about things you know nothing about. There are anti-Zionist and Anti-Western attitudes among Muslims, but this is due to politics. Anti-Christian feelings aren't common among Muslims. Would you blame anyone for being angery at the Abu Gharib Scandal, or for being against Iraq war or Afghanistan war? Being Anti-Zionist and Anti-Israel isnt the same as being Anti-Jewish. Infact, for almost a thousand years Christians and Jews have been respected and there places of worship protected in Islamic countries. The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) has said whoever hurts the people of the Scripture (Christians and Jews), hurts me.

    deicide128, I completely agree with your point of view that burning down Western buildings is an over-reaction. As a matter of fact, the vast majority of the protests have been nonviolent, almost like 90% of them. There have been some people who have overreacted, and that's regretable. The majority of Muslims do not support the burning of western businesses, this is something which we don't agree with. I however have not become aware of many instances where protesters actually killed people. The only stories of death I hear is from the side of the protesters who were shot by police or killed by foreign soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan.

    This can also be compared to the situation after 9/11 were innocent Muslims and dark-skinned people were targetted for murder and abuse. I am personally aware of an incident were a pregnant arab lady in chicago had her stomach cut open and fetus killed in front of her eyes. There have also been many, many Muslims and Indians in New York City and major cities who have been murdered for revenge over something we knew nothing about until 9/11.

    I however support the boycott over Danish and other European countries, as do the majority of the Islamic world. The Danish government should prevent the encitement of violence from their newspapers and take action against hate mongering against groups of people, especially the weak and suseptible Islamic community in Denmark. The newpaper was taking advantage of a situation to insult and humiliate Muslims in Europe. When the Muslims of the world found out, ofcourse, they were rightfully angery.

    Many Christian leaders worldwide have also given views to the affect that the insulting of the Prophet Jesus (peace be upon him) and the insulting of Christian religion in derogatory ways to promote hatred should be ended. We also agree with this view. Muslims believe that if someone wants to express their disagreement with the Islamic or Christian religions, they should do this is an intellectual debate, without promoting hatred or violence against another group of people.

    The argument for Freedom of Speech ends as soon as it is used to promote hatred and violence, then it becomes infringement upon someone else's Freedom of Religion and Practice.
     
  12. Zephyr Humans are ONE Registered Senior Member

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    I agree with a lot of what you say. I certainly hope that most Muslims don't feel hatred of non-Muslims. But while that article criticises the JP for publishing the cartoons, it neglects to mention that Danish Imams seem to be responsible for spreading the cartoons along with misinformation to cause a violent reaction in the Middle East.

    In other words, extremists on both sides seem to want some kind of clash. Just as there are people on both sides who don't want to start WW III over a cartoon.
     
  13. DiamondHearts Registered Senior Member

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    2,557
    I have actually listened to a few lectures given by the Imam after the incident. I agree with his views about the situation. Wikipedia says the additional images were sent in from other Muslim people before presenting to the Islamic world, I don't know alot about that. That is the first time I've ever heard of that.

    However, most of the rioters did not see the images, they were only told about it. The main cartoon which prompted rage in the Muslim world was the turban cartoon, which JP did publish.

    Also, You can feel rest assured most Muslims are sensible people and don't promote violence. If you had ever visited or lived in the Islamic world, I'm sure you would have little doubts.
     
  14. Kunax Sciforums:Reality not required Registered Senior Member

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    And so began the 2nd Dark Age...

    The cartoons where not meant as an insult, but like any charicatur they might come of as an insult. However the cartoon alone didn't start all this, this was caused by a to slow to responde from the Danish govermet and the egyptian goverment agitation there people against the Danes, and then all the way and back againg to some rather foolish imams in Denmark and so on. The cartoon where only the starting block for something greater in which all intrested parties have add there fair share of gasolin to the fire.

    Anyone with a clear and rational mind would have see then for what they are, nothing but hot air and gas. But once in a while they hit to close to home.

    It is to bad that this will only increase the level of selfcensur and hostility between people.
     
  15. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    But I have. All in Arabic. Hard to say in that case, eh?

    I think I'll take MEMRI's word for the alternative view www.memri.org. To say nothing of reports of hatred from the monitoring of mosques all over the US and Europe.

    Evidence, please.

    I don't. In fact, I buy as much Danish stuff as I can now. Long live Denmark and free speech.

    So what do you call it when people are murdered in Pakistan for arguing about religion in public with muslims? Or the oppression of Copts in Egypt?

    Geoff
     
  16. I don't know It's the pun police, run! Registered Senior Member

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    Edit: Geoff: you got some more info on this prosecution of copts in Egypt? I know several copts here, and they haven't mention much of any prosecution.



    To answer the title of the thread: It's both an expression resulting from freedom of speech and inciting hatred.

    That said, what a lot of muslims need to realize is that these cartoons don't harm islam any more than Piss Christ harms christianity.

    What does harm islam is muslims acting like blood-thirsty lunatics in the name of islam - in fact, if it wasn't for people like Osama bin Laden or whoever it was killed Theo van Gogh, those cartoons might never have existed in the first place.

    ....And it's not like the muslim world is completely free of racism either....

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    As for a lot of european countries being inconsequent when it comes to freedom of speech and antisemitism - this is not because of some love of jews, but because of hatred of nazism, you could say WW2 was a very traumatic experience for the European culture :\
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2006
  17. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    Salam Aleikum,
    As you could imagine, I respectfully disagree with this initial statement. These cartoons were quite tame by western standards, and are not racist at all. I think they show a mild criticism of Islam, and a questioning of how Muslims use Islam as a justification for violence. They do not even approach the limits of free speech. Something approaching the limit would be advocating violence towards Muslims. This is about Muslims living in European countries encroaching on European traditions of satire and comedy.

    I realize that Muslims venerate their prophet (pbuh), and forbid his depiction, but that has nothing to do with non-believers. Non-believers are not required to submit to the rules of Islam. I find certain anti-Jewish or anti-Zionist cartoons offensive, but I don't think there should be any censorship of them.

    The Danish newspaper has every right to publish anti-Islam cartoons if they wish (and these are not anti-Islam), and exclude holocaust denial material if that is the stance of the newspaper. Media outlets should be free to have a point of view.

    Prove it. I searched the Chicago Tribune website for this story and there's nothing.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2006
  18. OliverJ Banned Banned

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    349
    I know right!!!!
    It's come to light that boys as young as 8 and 10 years of age were held and tortured at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. In one period, approximately 30% of those held there died under such "interrogation" tactics. Even more shocking, rather than being prosecuted, the soldiers responsible for the abuse were given medals.

    Oh wait a minute... that was under Saddam Hussein... back when no one gave a damn about the welfare of Iraqis. My apologies for any confusion.
     
  19. OliverJ Banned Banned

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    349
    This shit is too funny, you can tpost cartoons of Christians and Jews all you want, make fun of em all you want.... but dont you dare post a cartoon of Allah !!

    Twi-light zone

    Period
     
  20. DiamondHearts Registered Senior Member

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    2,557
    This is not racist against Jews, it is against Israel's controlling American foreign policy. If you could read the words, you would see that. The Israeli is telling the American parrot to invade and attack Arab countries.

    The issue was not that it was a depiction. The issue was that it was offensive to Muslims. The images were made to denegrate Islam and to increase hatred against a weak Muslim minority in Denmark. It makes it difficult for Muslims to live peacefully in Denmark, it is inciting violence. You must know now what a terrified situation Muslims in the West are in. Constantly of threat of violence. The other day one of my fmaily members had his car vandalized for no reason. The window was broken, and this is the response of cartoons like this.

    You should read history and read how racist Nazis used cartoons to increase violence against Jews.

    Then we should have every right to put them in court for any violence which happens because of these cartoons.

    Media outlets should not be free to increase racism nad further people's hatred of a group of people.

    I heard this from one of her family members when I was in New York and he was visiting the city. The family name was Abdul-Malik, and I am 100% sure of its accuracy.

    You should also know that many incidents went unreported during that time, especially abuse of Muslims and murder of Muslims. I have yet to read articles on the cases for the murder of a few of Sikh taxi drivers in NYC which I know happened as a fact.

    http://www.adc.org/hatecrimes/pdf/2003_report_web.pdf

    http://www.aaiusa.org/PDF/JZ October Testimony.pdf

    Peace
     
  21. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    I have doubts.

    Isn't the crime for apostacy usually death in islamic nations? You've stipulated to this before. So isn't this the will of the people, then? Or the will of islam? Again, you've stipulated to this before. So how is it that islam doesn't promote violence?

    Geoff
     
  22. GeoffP Caput gerat lupinum Valued Senior Member

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    That is saddening. You can indeed imagine then how it is for religious minorities and apostates in the ME - and elsewhere. Imagine being persecuted for your beliefs or your change of heart and then finding out that, far from being protected, it's your oppressors that are protected! Life for dhimmis in islamic nations must be a constant state of fear.

    I think it's much similar to how cartoons are used by islamic news organizations. I recommend www.memri.org for an overview - but be warned, it's not for the faint of heart.

    But, of course, it's the protestors who are engaging in violence. Shouldn't it be they that are punished? Why do you want to execute a bunch of cartoonists? I don't even want to execute the guys who make the anti-Semitic cartoons, though they probably shouldn't be allowed to do so.

    Let me make a comparison for you: if the acts of islamicists in other countries make people harass muslims in Western nations, then do those latter nations have an obligation to punish the people harassing muslims, or the islamicists themselves? The former, naturally; because they're the ones committing these acts - doing violence, that is.

    Agreed; see www.memri.org.

    Then you should be able to provide some information.

    You didn't mean this murder, did you?

    http://news.ibn.net/newsgen.asp?url=CNNmuwo

    CNN Revives Murder Case of LA Muslim Woman
    4/4/06

    By Aishah Schwartz


    Hard hitting, no holds barred prime-time crime fighting advocate, Nancy Grace, resurrected December 17, 2004's unsolved cold case murder of Iman Muhanna Mohammed this past Friday night on CNN.

    It was 15 months ago that Iman Muhanna, 42, and 6-months pregnant, was found dead in the bedroom of her Metairie, Louisiana home. She had been viciously stabbed 33 times.

    The couple's unborn daughter did not survive the attack, turning the case into a double homicide.

    ...

    Turning her attention to clinical psychologist Dr. Patricia Saunders, Grace asked, "What's your take? No forced entry, no sex assault, nothing stolen."

    Saunders replied, "It's the 33 stab wounds that's really kind of alarming. That's an intimate and rageful act."

    "There was also a report or an allegation that the covers were pulled up around just up to her neck so her body was covered. I don't know what that means. It could be just covering up the blood. It could be a ritual. It could have modesty meaning. But the feeling I get is that this is up close and personal, somebody who knew her," Saunders concluded.

    Sounds like her husband did it: no forced entry, nothing stolen, act of rage, sheets drawn up in modesty. Surely you're not insinuating that the murder was motivated by her ethnicity?

    I did also find a link to a pretty hardline, intolerant islamic site that takes an equally hard stance against women preaching. It makes you wonder what a husband's definition of fitnah is sometimes. They mention a murder there: again, no forced entry, probably knew her killer.

    http://living-tradition.blogspot.com/2005_03_01_living-tradition_archive.html

    Geoff
     
  23. spidergoat pubic diorama Valued Senior Member

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    If you knew anything about the Danes that printed them, you would know that's not true.

    So what? Be offended. That's what freedom of speech is all about, the freedom to say things that might offend other people. I don't want to live in a society where I'm not allowed to say anything that might offend someone.
     

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