When love comes, there will be no more religion

Discussion in 'Free Thoughts' started by Solve et Coagula, Jan 18, 2006.

  1. Solve et Coagula Banned Banned

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    «*It is when one has no more love that laws and rules are needed; and even at this moment, laws and rules do not serve in much. As long as there is no love, there will be religions which will never be able to bring the human beings towards God. But when love will come, there will be no more religion. Religion will become internal and will show itself under shape of kindness, brilliance, sacrifice, sweetness and light. It is when love left the humanity that religion has come to compensate for it. But when love will come, religion will fade because it will have entered again the heart of the man.*»

    Omraam Mikhael Aivanhov
     
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  3. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

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    no... you forget that religion teaches love.. especially JESUS...

    -MT

    religion is the study of GOD and his creation.. including us...

    call it what you like... but you cannot abolish religion... it will never go away...

    not so long as man kind wonders about creation and how, who and or what made it all...

    none of which can ever actually be answered... hence.. the basis of religion.

    LOVE... internally.. will only bring peace and and end to poverty and suffering..

    no need to abandon our search for GOD...
     
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  5. ranger Into the future Registered Senior Member

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    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion."

    Steven Weinberg
     
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  7. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

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    LONG AGO... before tHe moral code set down by jewish religion...

    there was no basis for right and wrong...

    thats why romans had sex with their children....

    thats why pagans did insane things...

    morals... is taught and learned.. not genetic..


    as is evidensed by the nazis... their view was that man makes up all the rules..

    and if so... why not kill and enslave all the world??

    what wrong with it??

    morality says its wrong... without it.. anything goes...

    an atheistic world... would have no boundries of morality.. it would be what ever you can get away with...

    ranger...

    you say it is an insult???

    your a fool, who obviously hasnt been well educated... always a problem.

    -MT
     
  8. ranger Into the future Registered Senior Member

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    Here comes "The Moral Argument" again. If you create a thread in Religion named "Only Christianity gives us morals" we could argument there.
    I guess there's a big difference between you and me, I was a well educated Bible-Christian before.

    Please, educate yourself, you make me give you bible lessons for free.

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    In genesis 3:22:

    Adam and Eve clearly knew right and wrong before the rising of the Roman Empire.

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    I'm at your service, always showing narrow-minded fools to think outside-the-box.

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  9. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

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    I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN..... i am a soilder... and JESUS is my leader.

    thats all.

    a world without religion would be a world where most of us are slaves...

    come on... think about it...

    you say religion is an insult??

    and then you use genesis in your arguement??

    make up your mind.

    -MT
     
  10. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Religious texts teach love, especially the Buddhist texts. But the god of Abraham, which is the god of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims, tends to be a bit of a vain and selfish god who spends a little too much of his energy exhorting his followers to love him instead of concentrating on getting them to love each other. This is especially true in the way those three religions are passed down by the male priesthood.

    Each of the Abrahamic religions has degraded women and the entire feminine side of human nature in unspeakable ways in order to establish the supremacy of males as priests and community leaders. And love for our fellow man has never been a big priority in the masculine personality. We are supposed to learn that from our mothers and female elders, who have been marginalized in Judeo-Christian-Islamic civilization. Or from our female goddesses, whose roles have been completely usurped by the conveniently male deity of the montheistic faiths.

    I grant that Jesus tried to right some of these wrongs. But what we call Christianity was hijacked by the followers of Paul, the looneybird who would be locked up in a mental institution if he were alive today rather than being allowed to found a religion and lead impressionable minds down the path to insanity.

    Carl Jung said it all: "No wars in history have been as bloody as those between the so-called 'Christian' nations."

    Christianity does not inspire us to love one another. It far more often is used as an excuse for violent hatred. The people who founded and led the Nazi movement, the people who comprised its membership, and the people who complacently sat by while it carried out its atrocities... these people were overwhelmingly Christian. Good church-going, god-fearing Catholics and Lutherans.

    Judaism is no better on that score. The only reason the world Jewish community has not managed to commit atrocities of equal magnitude is that they are not big enough to have that much power. It's not an evangelical faith and they don't go around converting other people to their belief system.

    Islam, on the other hand, is just as bad as Christianity. Mohammed was a great man but his followers lost his message of love more than a thousand years ago. Today Islam's most influential leaders actively preach hatred, and some of Christianity's most influential leaders have recently shown themselves to be no better.

    You are wrong about the role of love in your religion. Your god is just a precocious, omnipotent guy who has the same failings as all guys. He creates imperfect people and then sits around for eternity getting his kicks by punishing us in cruel and creative ways for being imperfect.

    I wish all of you Christians, Jews, and Muslims would stop pushing your crap in our faces. It doesn't work for you and it surely won't work for us. Better yet, why don't you go off and have your own planet where you can continue to kill each other, and let the rest of us live in love and peace, which is something we could do if it were not for you guys!
     
  11. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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    Are you willing to admit any of the good things that the Abrahamic religions have done for humanity?

    Even if obsolete, they served a purpose once upon a time.
     
  12. taylan007 Madman Registered Senior Member

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    Who ever this guy was had no idea bout people. People will do what ever they feel will make themselves happy and whatever it takes for thier own survival, this is one of the most basic human/animal instinct. Isnt it relegion that points out good and evil in the first place. Good people still do good, evil people still do evil regardless of relegion, only thing relegion does in this equation is it lables things.

    But even going by what this guy says if it takes relegion to turn a good man evil, the the opposite would also have to be true, that relegion is also the key to turning an evil man good. So i dont understand how that could be an insult to human dignity.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2006
  13. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Of course. Very few things are totally good or totally evil. But on the balance, the evil done by the disciples of Abraham far outweighs the good. In the long run the world would be a much kinder, safer, saner, wiser, more prosperous, more loving place without the various sects of Abrahamism.
    Yes, they served the purpose of subjugating the feminine.

    Because it was women who gave birth and helped each other give birth, because it was women who gathered the herbs to cook with, because it was women who had to care for the men who came back from the hunt injured, it was women who had and passed on the lore of healing. Because it was women who raised children, it was women who had and passed on the lore of getting along. Because it was women who had to take care of ten things at one time while the men were out spending an entire week trying to track and kill one woolly rhinoceros, it was women who had and passed on the lore of organization and prioritization.

    Women had skills and knowledge that were different from but equal in importance to that of men.

    Abrahamism taught men that women were responsible for the evil in the world That women were their property. That any lore women had was the devil's and must be rejected. That any woman who acted like she possessed wisdom and deserved equal respect must be put in her place and if necessary beaten or killed. That the oldest women (who tended to live longer than men because they weren't out risking their lives every day) with their toothless grins and wrinkled skin and creaky voices were not wise elders but witches.

    Yes, the Abrahamic religions served a purpose: The purpose of evil. To divorce us, our entire civilization, from its feminine side. So that men could be unchecked in their passion for violence, dominance, and short-term thinking.

    Abrahamism is stupid, evil crap. And it's time we stopped being reluctant to call it that. Enough is enough! 1,400 years of Islam, 2,000 years of Christianity, four or five thousand years of Judaism. And what have they done for us?

    The religionists occasionally jump on a bandwagon, but only at the last moment when it is unstoppable. And then claim equal credit for its success. Look at the Christian Left patting itself on the back for its contribution to the civil rights and anti-war movements, after Christendom blessed slavery and fomented war for centuries.

    Medicine, tolerance, science, equal rights, caring for the environment, the global village... Everything Western civilization has accomplished has been in spite of its religions.
     
  14. yuri_sakazaki iLikeMyWomenLikeMyBaldMen ;Bald Registered Senior Member

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    Religion is responsible for a lot of evil, as it is responsible for a lot of good. I'm really not interested in getting into a debate of whether or not it balances out here, but I'd like to say that I think that quote takes one side of a story and jumps way too far with it. There are no such things as "good" and "evil" people; everyone does evil and everyone does good. Not everyone is equal on that scale, but they all have elements of both in them. Any kind of misleading or misinformation will lead usually good people to do evil things. It's not all centered on religion.
    First, to get it out of my system: HAHAHA.

    Okay, now I can respond to the actual quote. Do you know ANY atheists? By that thinking shouldn't they all be completely evil and self-serving? I suggest you at least try to meet one with an open mind and you'll find that they're not all bad. Some are terrible people, just like some religious people are terrible. But plenty of them have just as high a moral sense as the pious.

    A couple of things here. Since you seem to be Buddhist from what you said about Buddhism, I'd like to point out that in the biggest predominantly Buddhist countries, woman either until VERY recently or still are oppressed. India, China, and Japan all had more female oppression in relatively recent years (say the past century) than most of the Western world. I'm not blaming it on Buddhism, but come on. On the other hand, most Western Christian countries have the most women's rights in the world. Maybe not because of Christianity, but certainly not because they're not Christian. At least consider your facts before you start blaming female oppression on Christianity.
    The religion itself, I would classify as the original intention of the founders. Of course that's been distorted in all religions. If you agree with Jesus, then you could easily be a Christian. Perhaps not a Christian under one of the already established sects, but a Christian nevertheless. A lot of this is only a matter of semantics though so we probably shouldn't pay much attention to it.
    If his message was lost, how do you know he was a great man?
    Hm. I sense some displaced bitterness.
    Do you realize how silly that sounds? Would YOU want to go hunt a woolly rhinoceros? They didn't necessarily have it easy, either.
    Civilization wasn't all gung-ho on women before that either. There were a couple of civilizations that provided equal or near-equal rights for women, but they were always in the minority. Abrahamism isn't responsible for that.

    If you do respond to this, make sure you heavily consider the part I put in about areas that practice Eastern religions being horribly oppressive to their women. In China for a long while it was not uncommon for female newborns to be killed. In India, it still happens (please don't ask me to get a statistic or source, it's probably fairly uncommon. I know it does happen though. and the fact that it happens at all says something.) Anybody will tell you that most of Asia until very recently and in parts of it still to this day were not the most woman-friendly places you could go.
     
  15. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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    Cause he slept with little girls. Fraggle digs that sort of thing.

    j/k

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    Seriously though, how are Mohammed or Jesus greater men than say.. Mr Rogers or Gandhi?

    The truth is, for better or worse almost all societies are paternalistic. We haven't fully escaped this in the west either. Although it is becoming more neutral.
     
  16. Mosheh Thezion Registered Senior Member

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    WHERE IS THIS sovet et c... person....

    lots of cutting and pasting... but no responses.

    -MT
     
  17. hug-a-tree Live the life Registered Senior Member

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    OH! this makes me think of a quote by Johnathan Swift, "there is enough religion in this world to hate, but not enough to love."
     
  18. hug-a-tree Live the life Registered Senior Member

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    I don't agree with this "When loves comes, there will be no more religion." I think love will come when we just don't care what other peoples religion is. How about"When people care more about each other and less about the peoples beliefs love will come." ???
     
  19. RickyH Valued Senior Member

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    Couldn't have said it better myself

    Unfortunitly it's not possible, humans arn't evolved enough to do that.
     
  20. hug-a-tree Live the life Registered Senior Member

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    Thanks.

    Well I think humans are able to do that. When you see someone bowing to a statue-suck it up, when you know a muslim who has two wifes- get over it, when the jews got to church on friday instead of sunday- it's fine. See it's easy.

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  21. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    I'm not a Buddhist, I'm a third-generation atheist. I merely observe that today, the "faiths" that have the least reliance on supernatural crap--such as the dao, Confucianism, many Buddhist sects, possibly Sufism if I knew more about it--seem to show the most promise. When I talk about premodern people having a more balanced spirituality that does not demean the feminine, I really mean premodern people, our Mesolithic ancestors, not earlier or non-Western civilizations. Civilization universally has been a man's endeavor and we're the worse for it. If women had had more to say about it, it would have been a much more gradual process without the wrenching paradigm shifts that leave humanity rootless and depressed for centuries on end. Women would probably never have invented the corporation, and the first application of every new technology would not be more destructive weaponry.

    Still, the "oppression" of women in many Eastern societies was/is not quite what it appears to Western eyes. We measure everything by our standards: political appointments, freedom to travel, the right to affect many of the worst male characteristics such as sexual aggression, sports fanaticism, and drunkenness. In feudal societies, 99 percent of the men didn't have very many rights either. Chinese women and many African women had their own ways of wielding power in everyday life while the men were out making their deals and betraying each other. It's interesting that modern America is a civilization in which women typically do not support each other and wield power through collective strength, something that women in many other societies take for granted. American women are more disloyal to each other than American men.

    As for Jesus and Mohammed, I'm just being kind in the absence of any reason not to be. The conclusion I personally draw from all the research that's been done is that Jesus has not been proven to even be an actual historical figure, so whatever we say about him is mythology. Mohammed probably was real, but I've yet to meet a Muslim who believes that the modern institution of Islam is a very fair rendition of Mohammed's principles. His message isn't so much lost as ignored.

    Of course hunting megafauna was tough, but men always love doing tough things to prove how macho we are. Men still go out hunting big game today, even though there's no longer a need for it. In compensation for the risk, hunting was a fabulously easy life. You spend a lot of time waiting for signs of game, a lot of time sitting around the campfire drinking hooch and telling stories. I've consistently seen it estimated by anthropologists that the average work week of a hunter was less than twenty hours. The women, on the other hand, had full time jobs taking care of the children, cooking all those tough wild plants, schlepping water in primitive containers, and practicing medicine.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2006
  22. sargentlard Save the whales motherfucker Valued Senior Member

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    Destructive to humanity or not, it can't be denied that religion has inspired some of the best works of art.

    Hagia Sophia

    San Vitale

    Sistine Chapel

    The Pieta

    It's not all, but definetly, a good measure of vindication for religion.
     
  23. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    It is also responsible for the destruction thereof. The Muslims destroyed a lot of art created by Hindus and Buddhists, regardless of whether it was religious or secular, because of the asinine idea that depiction of living creatures is wicked. They also believe music is wicked and suppress it. They also burned down an entire library in Alexandria, with all the art that was in its books.

    The Christians obliterated two entire civilizations, the Aztec/Maya and Inca, with an incalculable loss of art works. They melted down gold statues to serve as mere bullion. They also burned the libraries of the Aztecs.

    The Christians of more recent times have also tried valiantly to destroy visual, musical, and literary art works that they define as "obscene" or "blasphemous." "Book burning" is not a pastime that we atheists invented.

    Once again, you're not looking at the big picture. Religions have caused the loss of more art than their contributions could ever possibly compensate for. We will never know what the Aztecs and Incas had, or what they might have gone on to create if they had been allowed to evolve into more modern civilizations.
     

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