View Full Version : Clue Up Or Shut Up!
Okay, Right! Let’s go straight for the jugular here. In my opinion, it is a fact that many sceptics or debunker knows little or nothing of the history and facts surrounding UFOs. I hasten to add that this does not apply to them all. Sceptics, if you want your views to be taken seriously then at least clue yourself up with the true facts.
I am quite willing to listen to any well reasoned argument against the UFO mystery being real as long as that person knows something about the subject.
My own view is that the UFO mystery is undoubtedly real. As for whether they are alien spacecraft or not is (as the sceptics always say) an entirely different question, but it is a possibilty that certainly has to be considered. I have seen it pointed out on this board that unexplainable things in the sky are not necessarily alien spacecraft. Quite right, but it is possible. THIS ET STUFF IS NOT STUPID as was claimed! It is a perfectly valid argument for any strange aeroform that exhibits abilities beyond the capability of human technology.
It’s time for you ill informed sceptics to either clue up or shut up!
Once again, apologies to all you knowledgable sceptics.
[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited June 24, 1999).]
High five, Spadge!
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God loves you and so do I!
Raebeth
06-25-99, 12:04 PM
I agree Spadge. Though some tolerance must be given to us beginners who are learning as we go along.
Yes, Raebeth..and surely we are all here to try and learn something. Let's face it, there is no such thing as an 'expert' in this subject.
[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited June 25, 1999).]
No one is an expert in any subject :)
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Just waiting for my peabrain to boot into English :\
Yes, I could not agree more H-kon. But especially in this one!
[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited July 06, 1999).]
Spadge,
I think the only people that are stubbornly critical of this field are the ones who have not had an encounter. Be it Ultra-secret military crap like Project Aurora to Flying Saucer looking craft. Most people don't believe anything until they see it with their own eyes!
<center> http://info.esc.net.au/~nitro/Get%20me%20outa%20here.gif
Get me Outa Here! </center>
Ragards,
Dave.
[This message has been edited by Dave (edited July 06, 1999).]
Blacktubby
07-07-99, 03:43 AM
SpadgeÕs little rant,
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Okay, Right! Let's go straight for the jugular here. In my opinion, it is a fact that many sceptics or debunker knows little or nothing of the history and facts surrounding UFOs. I hasten to add that this does not apply to them all. Sceptics, if you want your views to be taken seriously then at least clue yourself up with the true facts.
I am quite willing to listen to any well reasoned argument against the UFO mystery being real as long as that person knows something about the subject.
My own view is that the UFO mystery is undoubtedly real. As for whether they are alien spacecraft or not is (as the sceptics always say) an entirely different question, but it is a possibilty that certainly has to be considered. I have seen it pointed out on this board that unexplainable things in the sky are not necessarily alien spacecraft. Quite right, but it is possible. THIS ET STUFF IS NOT STUPID as was claimed! It is a perfectly valid argument for any strange aeroform that exhibits abilities beyond the capability of human technology.
ItÕs time for you ill informed sceptics to either clue up or shut up! Once again, apologies to all you knowledgable sceptics.
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Spadge,
"In my opinion, it is a fact that many sceptics or debunker knows little or nothing of the history and facts surrounding UFOs."
(Sorry, Spadge I just have to take this petty little jab :) If it's just your opinion, then it can't be fact. If it's fact then it can't merely be your opinion.
But on to the real point. One does not NEED to know the whole history of UFO's to see that most claims are preposterous. "Because I said so. I did get an anal probe so there!"
"It is a perfectly valid argument for any strange aeroform that exhibits abilities beyond the capability of human technology."
Many natural occurrences are well beyond the capability of human technology. Because one has not specifically identified such a possibility does not make alien spacecraft the next most likely cause.
And many skeptics HAVE had encounters. However due to their critical mindset they realized that it was merely a frisbee and not Elvis Presley's UFO.
By nature, skeptics realize that most 'believers' are ill informed. Despite their misinformation, those believers who are unaware of the facts are free to voice their opinions. It is a freedom which should be extended to all ignoramuses, regardless of ideological affiliation. :-)
This is Blacktubby,
(Please people, take what I say with a grain of salt. I have the unfortunate ability to annoy people without realizing it. Let me know when I get out of line, and be understanding with my sense of humor.)
Dear Mr Blacktubby
Please do not be offended, but I have to admit that I found your post utterly hilarious. Even your name amused me!
At this moment in time I am at a complete loss to reply. I'll let someone else have a go first.
Dave
What you say is sadly true with many people who simply refuse to believe sincere witnesses to bizarre events.
[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited July 07, 1999).]
Just for the record, I myself have seen a UFO as many others have done, but one that vibrates in the sky, and suddenly disappears is not swamp gas. But since it was getting dark in the middle of winter in Norway, lots of snow and all, the object, or phenomenon as a better label was clearly visible. I lived 8 minutes of walking next to a military installation in Norway, but to this day, i have never heard a similiar story at all, so that could have been anything, but i had a gut feeling that this was something one could touch. Well.. enough of that.
My point is that I believe in UFO's, no. I mean Alien spacecrafts I have no idea if what i saw was "true" but i know that I cant prove anything, as much as others can prove that they DONT exist.
So If you dont believe in it, answer our posts yes, but also be open to other peoples opinion and experiences,. Dont live in a box. Neither party will benefit from it. The only way one can find the truth to all of this is to work together on it, instead of cursing one another of ones belief. But maybe I am asking too much here :(
Spadge:
You seem to have read alot about this stuff. I wondered if you have read something about a place in Norway called "Hessdalen" or the "Horseshoe Valley"?
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Just waiting for my peabrain to boot into English :\
H-kon
Yes, I am familiar with the Hessdalen UFOs. They were investigated by a team of scientists over a long period of time. I might be wrong , but I think it was called Project Triangle or something. I have always been intrigued as to why more scientists never got involved in the study of these lights which occured (they may still be occuring for all I know) in a remote, snowy and mountainous region of Norway. They were undoutedly real, although most people think that the Hessdalen lights have more to do with some unkown natural phenomena than with alien spacecraft. Possibly something like the famous Marfa Lights in Texas.
[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited July 08, 1999).]
I'd like to add another potential explanation to the swamp gas pile.
It just occurred to me that, as a civilization, we have only started using massive illumination in the latter half of the century. I mean, look at our cities -- they shine so bright, you can see them from the Moon today! What if, of all those billions of shining lights all over the globe, every now and then a few get refracted around the atmosphere and refocused in the middle of a blank sky for everyone to observe? I'm talking about the same mechanisms that generate mirages, only now applied to all the terrestrial artificial light sources in the dark hemisphere, as well as navigation lights of aircraft. This would explain how the UFOs defy the laws of physics -- a mere mirage can indeed appear and disappear abruptly, as well as accelerate at any rate and in any direction.
Then there's the ball lightning hypothesis. By the way, how come nobody talks about ball lightning anymore? It used to be a popular topic once upon a time, with throngs of witnesses reporting it!
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I am; therefore I think.
I sure Boris you is right in saying that many UFOs are misinterpretations of ball lightening. It would be interesting to know what percentage.
It's always interested me due to the fact that I am pretty certain that I personally witnessesd a display of ball lightening many years ago. It was quite an interesting experience although I never put it down to anything else such as UFO.
[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited July 08, 1999).]
[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited July 08, 1999).]
A small defense for the skeptics.
<hr>
I've been researching the UFO phenomenon for about 5 years now, Spadge, so maybe you'll give my opinion some listening to. I can assure you I know more than enough on the subject and over the time of my research, and suprisingly unlike many researchers in the field, I have grown from believer to skeptic.
The UFO phenomenon itself, is, without question, real. I do not doubt that
But still, people, let's keep to logical perspectives!!!! I hear what some of you talk about and believe whole-heartildy and it disturbs me to the fullest. It's getting as bad as religion!
The whole reason I leaped into the field of UFOs was because I thought it wasn't getting enough attention. I thought it was a new field of science that was trying to explain "the why." But now, I have come to know that this is not science. It has become puesdo-science. Almost pure religion. You people refuse to hear anything that will debunk you. You can't stand it. You have made up your minds and you refuse to change. You are too much like religoius followers, and I fear, that after the millinium, you'll have your own established UFO religion.
All I ask from you is to do your own investigations. Insert logical thinking. Dig until you find some kind of answer. And for christ sakes don't take the evidence presented by your television sets.
And last, give the skeptics some listening too. They aren't doing this just to "bully" you poor babys around. They're doing this because what you people are assuming is crazy and you'd look at them the same skepticism the the situation was vice versa.
MaTTo
[This message has been edited by MaTTo (edited July 08, 1999).]
Ha...suddenly the breeze of true scepticism sweeps through our little debate. More like a mini tornado actually. I would imagine that it might have ruffled a few feathers here. However, any feathers ruffled by this reply do not include mine.
Matto
Firstly I would like to thank you for your excellent response. You are exactly the opposite of the type of sceptic that I was having a go at. I find myself having to agree with everything you say. I do however, still stand by the assertion that it is quite possible that some UFOs might be alien craft, and I do stress might.
With reagrds to your views, yes...it's a sad fact that some 'believers' will not consider any other suggestion put forward to account for UFOs other than alien spacecraft. You mentioned the religious side to all this and again I would have to agree with you. Also, the fact that you should not take at face value anything you see on TV with regards to UFOs. Of the innumerable programmes that have been aired on this subject hardly any that I have seen have not been littered with factual errors and psuedo-science. The same applies with the hundreds of books written about UFOs with a huge majority (this is only my opinion of course) being total rubbish.
You do say "give the sceptics some listening to." I also would urge people to do that, but only if the sceptics in question knew what they were talking about. Remember, we are trying to get at the true facts here and we don't want any falsehoods clouding the issue.
I was really attacking people who dismiss the subject out of hand without knowing the true facts. I personally believe their views to be just as unimportant as the people that believe that aliens are here for no reason.
I would very much like to know why your scepticism in the ETH grew Matto?
[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited July 08, 1999).]
maTTo,
No offence but you obviously have not had a giant saucer go over your head not more than 100 feet above you, have you? Of course not, that's why I had to listen to you say that " I can't stand the skeptics and I refuse to hear anything that will debunk me, I have made up my mind and I refuse to change."
I'm no backward country hick. I saw what I saw and I'm bored with listening to people like you finding lamo excuses on my behalf to explain away what I witnessed. Just bloody accept it, will you. People have seen flying saucers. Some of these witnesses are very credible (do we need to mention Jimmy Carters documented report???). So, what is your problem with that? And what's with the beat-up now-a-days about UFO believers starting their own religion?? Give it a rest, mate! Or is that your aim, "they're all nutcakes - those UFO freaks, Man, they should stop embarrassing themselves, what a bunch of fruit-loops, hey??!!!"
Sorry, but I had to have my say. Don't get offended maTTo, I always get my back up with skeptics, you've simply joined the qeue here that stops me from having "free-wheeling acid dropping fantasies that I seem to participate in during my lunch breaks" ! LOL
Dave.
Corp.Hudson
07-09-99, 08:09 PM
Hey guys. Didya miss me? I have had linux trouble that prevents me from using my home computer :(
just want to make a point: "In my opinion its a fact that..."-spadge
how can a fact be your opinion?
Dave,
I'm intrested in hearing the details of your sighting , if you care to dilvulge them.( time of day , other witinesses? , military base near by? , size , sounds )
thank you
God....frey,
Hit the hyperlink below and it will take you to my encounter stories post. :)
<center><a href="http://www.exosci.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000022.html/#STORY1" onmouseover="window.status='Daves UFO Stories'; return true;"><strong>Dave's UFO Stories!</strong></center></a>
Regards,
Dave.
[This message has been edited by Dave (edited July 10, 1999).]
maTTo is right,
Human nature is to take all the facts on a situation, disregard them, and then believe in what you want to believe!
Dave, you may have seen a saucer fly over you, one hundred feet above your head, but then comes the assumption. Human nature kicks in, you don`t know what you have seen so the UFO doctrine imbedded in your mind lets you decide it must be from another planet.
My view on this subject is simple. There are so many people claiming to be abducted that if they were all telling the truth then, you couldn`t walk out of your front door without bumping in aliens. Secondly, I get the impression that vast majority of abduction claims all appear to be American, why is this? Aren`t these alien interested in the remaining 5.250 billion people on the planet, and if you wanted to conduct medical experiments on people? Wouldn`t it be easier to do it on people say in Africa or South America where it`s easier to keep it secret. I guess someone now is gonna say they already do! Just another unprovable conspiracy!
Another question,
Do these abducties go to the Police? If someone kidnapped me I call the police before I called a hypnotherapyst, as seems to be the standard in most cases.
TV programmes report on this subject on regular basis, but remember this! A television broadcaster may produce a programme, which may undoubtably proves in anyones mind the existence of aliens, but remember this. These people exist to make money, programmes are tailored for viewing audiences, ratings come before all. People generally want to believe in this UFO alien thing, and they want to watch programmes on telly that prove it`s real.
I don`t believe it`s real. Modern day ghosts.
[This message has been edited by Mike (edited July 11, 1999).]
Mike,
I see where your coming from except for one thing. I didn't know about UFO's in the 70's when I was 14 years old. I wasn't aware there was a large interest either. I simply stated what I saw and "I saw a circular shaped object.. yada yada yada...."
At no time did I say it came from another planet either. Keep the story straight.
There was no UFO doctrine instilled in me at that time and therefore no preconceived conclusions for me to make. OK?? :) .
Regards,
Dave.
okay the exception, but in most cases if you want to see something then chances are you will.
Your case may be different, but the general rule of thumb that I can best make out, is that these days anything that`s spotted in the air which isn`t immediatly identifiable, is marked up as an alien ship.
Until I personally meet an extraterrestial, for now I`m putting it all down to hocus pocus.
Dave
thank you . I'm curiou as to what exactly scared you? Being 14
i would think that you would be more intrested then scared of the object.
God....frey,
Good call. I don't know why but I was REALLY scared! Basically, I was sh@#ing myself. And - when I ran home I couldn't wait to get to the safety of my house. Weird response, really! You've got me thinking now.......
Regards,
Dave.
dumaurier
07-12-99, 05:45 AM
Dave,
in psychology we call this the "flight or fight" instinct. It is a natural response to outside, visual stimuli of which character is unknown and strange. That is to say that what you saw stimulated your parasympathetic nerves system resulting in fear and, therefore "flight" from the source of fear. Most people are afraid of the dark, for example, and this for no other reason that such an environment causes us to lose our self identity which is closely linked to the five senses. Having lost this contact with a "secure self" causes the brain to send signals to the nervous system which in turn creates chemicals stimulating the parasympathetic system which imposes a response or reaction from the person. This response is instinctive. Fear is an emotion. This emotion, though a natural instinct, can be exaggerated through learning. It can, therefore be unlearned.
The sighting of a UFO flying overhead i had last year did not at all stimulate fear within me. It was as clear as day yet i cannot provide any conclusions as to what it really was. It looked like two inverted saucers with a dome on top and it didn't make any noise. But i have no idea what it could have been. Nevertheless, i can assure you that it was no ball of light and that what i saw seemed very metallic and was extraordinary and awe-inspiring.
I believe sooner or later definitive answers as to the identity of these UFOs will emerge.
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dumaurier
You got that straight, DuMaurier!!
Regards,
Dave.
My little rant:
Hmm..
Instinct.....Instinct..That is the thing we civilized advanced human beings have lost in the search for ourselves and who we are. Instead we disregard instinct as primitive, and so we use common sence (living in a box)and logic to translate an experience.
Doctors question us telling us we are crazy to have seen such a thing ( the same people that performed lobotomi on people not too long ago) *Whoops*
I know what i saw, I trust my gut feeling and instinct fully. .No yada yada doctor or anyone cant explain anything of which they havent seen.
How can they perceive an experience when they havent seen it themselves, and from there try to create a different picture in ones mind.. Now that is crazy if you ask me.
Indoctrination. FUD, brainwashing..
Hmm..i wonder which party is crazy...
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"All i say is keep looking".
Dave
Seems like you are remembering a dream. is this possible? Now , don't be offended , just a question am truly interested about.
I can remember a reoccurring dream I had many years ago. I won't bore you with the details , but there was a small volcano with a door & a rhino. It was a terrifying experience and I don't know why . it seems as real as any other experience but obviously volcanos don't have doors and there are no rhinos in my neighborhood.
God...frey,
Not a chance in the world of it being a dream, I'm afraid!
I am able to differentiate between reality and dreams and have never confused the two.
Remember, the last time I saw something odd in the sky was only three months ago, with my brother standing along side me! We have recalled the account a few times since then. So, that one's off the cards. ...errrr....I'm trying to say that I know it wasn't any dream....even though that could be offered as an alternative answer to the occurence by some.
Regards,
Dave.
Mike
No offence intended but I have to disagree with your earlier posting on many points. You say Dave is assuming that it was a alien spacecraft because of the ‘UFO doctrine’ embedded in his mind. What I want to know is why you cannot accept that these things are real. Whatever they may be I find it completely unbelievable that some people continue to suggest that saucers do not exist. Personally I have to say that I think that all of you saucer sceptics are all completely barmy for disregarding so much eye witness testimony. Whatever they may be, saucer shaped flying objects exist.
Regarding your point on alien abductions. Yes, actually alien abductions appear to be a world wide phenomena. You suggest that the aliens want to keep it a secret. Now who is making the assumptions? How do we know that if aliens are here they really care if we know about them or not. Your suggestion that abductees should go the police is just totally proposterous. I suppose you would do that if it happened to you. Like hell you would.....
You also make the assumption that we all want to believe in this alien thing. The fact is that I have been interested in UFOs for many years but some aspects of the subject concern me. Personally, I would be quite happy if the mystery did not exist.
One final point! You say that aliens are simply modern day ghosts. I realise that ghosts are probably best discussed in the Paranormal forum and they hopefully will be. However, there are similarities here. From my point of view ghosts, like saucers, are 100% real. Believe me, I know! This is one area of the paranormal that I have had first hand experience of over many years now and on many occasions. What they are not, in my opinion, are the spirits of dead people. There is a scientific explanation for ghosts that we may one day understand.
The point being this. Certain people simply will not believe in the possible existence of such things and arrogantly dismiss accounts from thousands and thousands of eyewitnesses to such events. Huge numbers of these eyewitnesses come from professional backgrounds and in a court of law they would be looked upon as excellent witnesses. These people have nothing to gain and everything to lose by reporting such things. Why then do their numbers continue to grow day by day?
How can you completely disregard what these people say?
[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited July 15, 1999).]
Spadge,
Eyewitnes accounts just won't do in this case I'm afraid. That is just the point, our senses can decive us and if they don't our brain will.
Do you know how many people saw the virgin Mary in the cave in Lourdes - France ? I believe their numbers are increasing as well, do you know how many people saw Jezus walk on water ? Or multiply fish and bread ?
You just can't go about and believe everything that people say.
You say that eventually one will find a scientific explanation for all these things like ghosts and ufos but that is not how it works. You see these things lie outside the logical construct of science with a reason, they are the aspects of the eternal mystery that fascinates us since the first man wondered where all the lights in the sky came from.
You don't really think the stories will end when man is able to reach for the stars himself ? They will just change form but they will be there, may be it won't be flying sausers any more but interdimensional visitors popping in and out our universe for a brief visit...
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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato
Spadge,
Sorry for not spotting your post sooner, in response read my post on electrical hypersensitivity.
Plato
I admit that I was talking from a purely personal standpoint in my above post. I know that to prove the existence of these things conclusively we need to use scientific methods.
However, science can deny the existence of saucer shaped craft for as long as it wants to but personally I am willing to believe the testimony of the vast numbers of my fellow men on what they saw. I guess this is the main point on which we differ.
Obviously you are quite right in saying that it is easy to be deceived by what you see but the fact that huge numbers of sightings have occurred in broad daylight at close range by professional people is proof enough for me that these things are out there. You must admit that this situation is different to the Lourdes issue.
Regarding ghosts, I do maybe think that in the future we might be able to prove that ghosts exist. Although it would not be until after our next big leap fowards in our understanding of the universe.
We've already got many tried and trusted scientific methods to prove the existence of UFOs at our fingertips. Unfortunately, for a number of reasons which we've disccussed elsewhere, the research is not being done. Or not enough of it anyway. Anyway, for all we know the existence of these things is already accepted by certain governments.
I'm not so sure that we will ever be able to go beyond proving their existence. The truth behind may for ever be hid from us. Remember the Monkey and the Coke can analogy?
[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited August 07, 1999).]
Spadge,
I`d like to hear about your tried and trusted techniques of proving the existence of UFO`s with ET origins. As far as I am aware there are none, only the apparent witness accounts of human beings from this planet. The main point I have to say is that human beings, to a certain extent, are notorious liars at the best of time. With the onset of TV, even honest people will over dramatise events just to get thier fifteen minutes of fame.
I`m not saying," everbody is a liar", and I`m not saying," every abductie or UFO sighting witness is over dramatising what they saw or what they claim happened to them." But, popular culture, in the west, is hungry for the UFO, alien grey phenomena, and there are to many people willing and wanting to feed the beast. Too many TV corporations exploiting the human eagerness to believe.
I personally will not be herded like a human sheep, I will not be absolved by mass belief. Until an alien knocks on my front door and says hello, as far as I`m concerned they do not exist.
Like I said before, read my post on electrical hypersensivity. This I believe explains all.
[This message has been edited by Mike (edited August 10, 1999).]
About through investigation in the ufo syndrome, you must admit that this would cost huge amounts of money. This is the problem, in order to make people spend this money they must first be convinced it is a worthwhile investment and as long as there is no good evidence for these things, that is very hard. So we have the old vicieus circel again...
Spadge,
about the Lourdes analogy, I don't know if we can just pretend that the professionals that you are talking about and the religious people in the South of France are two totally different groups. First of all, what are they professional in ? Some kind of technical job ? So what is the difference between the perception of a shoe mender and a rocket scientist ? Their brain is subject to the same impulses and misdirections but their interpretation of these impulses might differ in as one saw just another spacecraft and the other saw a messenger of God...
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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato
Pookums
08-15-99, 08:47 AM
As a trained skeptic and scientist, I have to put my two cents-worth into this debate.
First, regarding proving the existence of aliens scientifically, I refer you to my August 14th post, "get a clue train...all aboard". To sum-up that post, science cannot prove anything, but only disprove things. Therefore, there is and will never be any scientific 'proof' that aliens exist. At best, there will be data 'supporting the hypothesis that aliens exist'; I kid you not, this is science jargon.
As a scientist, I am also an empiricist. Now I bow to Plato's questions of reality and perception; this philosophical debate has been hot since the time of his namesake. Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that empirical experience is not only possible, but trustworthy.
The difference between believers and skeptics (in my opinion) then comes from the ANALYSIS of a given empirical experience. This is were the grey matter truly is. When one observes something that experience gives no rational explanation, one must then use logical extensions of their experience to identify and/or explain the event. In other words, your previous experiences dictate the analysis of current/future experiences.
Let me give some examples...
1) Mermaids, griffins, unicorns, etc. were all accepted to exist in Western History; many learned peoples documented sightings of these critters.
2) There are probably over 100 recognized religions (and franchises thereof) currently practiced in the world today. All of which have practicioners that swear there way is the 'one-way'.
3) In almost all cases, the idea that something SHOULD exist precedes its discovery. This also holds true for science. There are even some philosophical debates that suggest (quite well) that observed reality is preceded by the idea that such reality should be.
In the end, it comes to this. Two (200, 2000, 2-million) may see the same event that does not fit into their previous empirical experience; the explanations of that event will probably vary with the number of witnesses. Believers by their nature will accept their personal explanations as truth, while skeptics will question that truth. This is all fine and good when the believers and skeptics agree to compare notes, but as usually is the case with humans, emotions get involved.
In summary, skeptics should question the issues and respect the individual, and believers should behave the same way. Under this context, a true dialectic is possible.
For the record, I view skepticism as not disbelief, but doubt. I doubt any evidence of the existance of aliens, while at the same time question whether it can be possible that we are alone in the universe. I guess, I am an permanent post-sitter.
-Bitsy
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Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please.
-Mark Twain
Matt D Skeptic
08-15-99, 02:00 PM
Plato, you list in your interests philosophy However, you have not only misquoted in your signature but you have the completely the wrong person too.
It was Isaac Newton who said "If I have seen further, it was by standing on the shoulders of giants".
Unless Plato you are referring to yourself, Plato the software engineer ofcourse???
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You know it to be so
My dear Matt,
It was indeed Isaac Newton whose quote I'm using in my signature, I'm glad you figured that out ! That is only to show my high estime for the great 17th century physisist and I simply liked the quote. I don't see why my Plato-alias should have anything to do with this. Does everything has to be the same way as you see things ? Then I'm happy to have messed up your esthetical view on how a good posting should look like.
Yes, by 'Plato' in the signature I don't mean the Philosopher but my humble self, having made the post, not the quote, besides the quote is not exactly the same as Newton's so technically it is not from him, besides I didn't put it between 'quotes'. ;)
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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato
[This message has been edited by Plato (edited August 16, 1999).]
Pookums,
You are very true in saying that emotions sometimes (all the time?) come in the way in debates between believers and non-believers. As a scientist you should now that even in the scientific community these 'primitive hormonic extravagances' show up from time to time, it is only human I'm afraid.
Still dialoge is needed to keep the focus on reality, a priori disregarding each observation is as foolish as believing each crazy story that comes along.
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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato
Matt D Skeptic
08-16-99, 07:39 AM
Plato, I am glad you erm cleared that up for me. And there was I thinking Plato had come back from the dead, really?
You are right it is a good quote from a good mind. None of us here are worthy of His words so probably best thing that you "Plato-ed" it.
Nighty night.....
MDS
xx
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You know it to be so
Mike
Sorry, that was a vague statement about 'tried and trusted methods.' What I meant was that maybe scientific investigations could be carried out at 'UFO landing sites' by using chemical and biological analysis.
These methods have all been tried before in a number of famous cases. (Most notably during the Trans-en-Provence case in France during 1981 which is still the most thorough investigation of a UFO landing site to date) However, the quantity of this sort of thorough research is sadly lacking.
The areas that you could look at would include soil analysis and a look at the possible biological effects on soil microbes or plants.
It would be possible to confirm the presence of high heat or high levels of radiation. Maybe you could find evidence of a high electromagnetic field having been present?
You might also examine how compacted the soil is compared to the surounding areas. From this the weight of any object that had landed could be calculated.
By using methods such as these in conjuction with eye witness testimony, photographs, video or radar reports then would be possible to establish beyond all reasonable doubt that the sighting was geniune and that an object had landed. Research like this would contitute a step in the right direction with the added result that Ufology would soon be taken far more seriously by the scientific community as a whole. This would encourage more scientists to get involved and the 'laughter curtain' would be torn down.
Plato
In a general sense I would say that what you point out is maybe correct. However, I meant that there are some groups of witnesses whose reports may be taken more seriously. For example, a pilot who has many hours experience of looking at the sky would recognise certain things that might fool the average person. In simple terms an astronomer could tell the difference between the planet Venus or something very strange.
[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited August 18, 1999).]
Spadge,
as you know by now I agree with your plead for more research, there are definitly fenomena who are totally not understood and need to be looked into.
What I miss a little bit is some kind of purpose for a future investigation. Or rather a goal, in physics for example experiments are carried out to test certain hypothesis' that are first put forward. The ufo related stories are so overwhelming and erratic that any serious investigator first needs to sift through a whole lot of junk material. Then by lack of any general theory he is still at loss with the facts, who are like puzzel pieces of different puzzels.
When Newton said that we are merly building on what other have made before us, he was also addressing the flaw of the scientific method, one can't just make theories in free air, they must find their foundations in other work. That is the main reason why I think any explanation of the UFO fenomena is not really for tomorrow.
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we are midgets standing on the backs of giants,
Plato
Surely we need to establish if certain cases really are caused by solid, structured and intelligently controlled craft. Some of the methods I mentioned in my last post might help here. At least this would be a starting point for formulating any hypothesis.
I'm sure that many of you would agree that some UFOs may be natural phenomena such as ball lightning or Paul Devereaux's earthlights. The 'glowing ball of light' type UFOs do appear to me to be a natural phenomenon. The Foo Fighters of World War 2 or Norway's Hessdallen UFOs certainly spring to mind here.
However, it still begs the question as to why some of these objects seem to act as if they are intelligently controlled. Nothing about this subject is ever straighfoward....
Plato quite rightly points out that "the facts are like the puzzle pieces of different puzzles."
[This message has been edited by Spadge (edited August 18, 1999).]
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