View Full Version : Science or god?
Me and my friends came across this discussion about whether we should believe in science or god and whether god exists at all. I sure want some input from everyone.
For me, I believe in God but they are outside our universe. According to the second law of thermaldynamics that disorders increases in a closed system. If god is within our universe that sure they'll undergo aging so that the only way to explain they live forever is for them to live outside our universe.
It is better to believe in science that it is the only way to save us from disease. With the nano-tech, genetic evolution and quatum theroy, it might help us mankind to achieve eternal youth, while god only provides us with mental support.
Believe whatever, whichever, or any combination you care to ... it isn't
going to make a difference in the end either for you or our species.
Just do me a favor and don't try and convince me you've found the answer ...
I've go my own trip to complete ;)
PS I think one of the other forums may have been more appropriate
for this thread ... but that's just my opinion :D
James R
12-08-01, 05:46 AM
Hevene,
Welcome fellow Australian (even if you are from Sydney :)).
There's no need to make a choice between either God or Science. Both can happily co-exist. Science and religion cover separate areas. Science is knowledge based. Religion relies on faith. There is plenty of room in science for God. Perhaps God made the universe. Perhaps God exists somehow beyond the universe. Perhaps God interferes daily in the workings of the universe, but in such a way that we can't tell. Perhaps God directs the collapse of quantum wavepackets. Or maybe there is no God. Who knows?
Believe whatever you feel is right, but don't stop searching, and don't close your mind to either science or the possibility of God.
If I want to know I look to the Sciences to show me. If I want to feel I look to the Arts.
A lot of people feel the presence of gods. I feel the presence of Campbell's soup cans.
You know what they say about beauty?
Riomacleod
01-17-02, 09:47 AM
Ok, this really gets my giblets... why make a distinction between science OR God? Why are they so totally incompatable? James, I disagree, one can know God. Ever since I began in Philosophy, I have never had a problem understanding the concept of the Perfect Being, a creator which made a universe with such perfect order.
Either way, Mr G, the only art that makes you "feel" is debased post-modernist shit. The whole of art is designed to spark thought and discussion, rather than visceral emotion. I'll admit that there have been some very good postmodern works, especially the Soup Can, and the painting of the comic strip panel... those are at least more intellectually sophisticated than hurling a tennisball of paint at a canvas.
I will, however give that religion is often incompatable with science. But I don't think that one can confuse the power structure of an entity with the being that they worship. I also have to think that, in reality, government and science are incompatable for pretty much the same reasons. Science educates us, and makes us less susceptable to the machinations of the ruling class, whichever that might be (in theory) and therefore causes a tension where the ruling class has to allow some growth in knowledge, lest their entity fall, but not allow their subjects to learn too much, lest they realise that they are being taken advantage of in the most hideous way. Of course, modern society has found that the best way of allowing science to flourish while keeping it out of the hands of the general population is to reduce all knowledge to 10-second sound bites and "your heath and you" reports, which can change week to week, all of which has been divested of any context or practical data.
Anyway, I hope this helps some.
glaucon
02-07-02, 08:30 AM
Answer: look up 'Pascal's Wager'
i disagree with most of the opinions here. i don't believe religion is compatible with science or that there's plenty of room in science for religion. at least not the religions we know today.
i think the religions we have today are primitive, science is much more wide.
most of the things in the catholic bible, for instance, were already discredit, specially when it comes to the science stuff, and people still believe in this religion, i find highly unlikely that a god would be so stupid in science to say such things as "the sun orbits around the earth". i think this religion, as others, were invented by men that wanted a meaning for his life and the universe. if you study the beginning of most religions, you will see that they came from the sumerian religion, people who lived in mesopotamia (middle east) about 4000 years before jesus christ. most of the bible stories were originated from sumerian stories. it is obvious that is one big religion that got spread and eventually modified the way they tell it, but the stories are the same.
i think either there's no god and an event that we are not able to understand (yet) took place or there is a god but it is different from all we know (that's why we can't call it "he" or "she") and all we can imagine. in both cases it will take a long time to discover because our brain is to primitive to understand it (it all comes down to selective nature -- our nature doesn't need to understand it in other to survive). if we will someday discover it, i'm not sure, but it will surely take so much time to discover and to be accepted. i mean, even einstein didn't believe in quantum mechanics.
Lua,
Well said, and I completely agree with you.
And welcome to sciforums.
Hope we will see more of your thoughts.
Cris
thank you, chris. it's nice to know i'm not alone among all of this...i've been posting in other sections of the site. i just can't come here too often because there's so much bs.
i know we are supposed to respect people's beliefs, but ot's hard when we show evidence and they prefer to believe in their faith that can be expleined even by evolution or culture. it's definetely easier to lay back and swallow everything than go in the field and look for yourself.
take care.
TruthSeeker
03-21-02, 08:15 PM
I totally agree with James R.
Perhaps God exists somehow beyond the universe. Perhaps God interferes daily in the workings of the universe, but in such a way that we can't tell. Perhaps God directs the collapse of quantum wavepackets. Or maybe there is no God. Who knows?
May I help you...? :D
That's what it seems...
Well... God is beyond the Universe... but at the same time He is within us... how can this be possible...? Perhaps God has a kind of projection, like light does. Light can appear as particle and as wave... so God can be within us (in a "wave state") and beyond the Universe (as a "particle"). It all depends in the perspective of the observer. ;)
The Bible says we live "in the shadow of the Almighty". What does it means? Perhaps it means that the Universe is God's shadow... God is perfect, the Universe is not. Perhaps the Universe is an imperfect copy of God... and it's called Satan's world. Then you have the whole concept of Light and Darkness and Dualist Universe. The shadow is dark, but God is made by light. That explain many things about the Universe. The Universe seems to be an illusion that cames from God, who's perfection Himself.
... ;)
Love,
Nelson
Truthseeker: a LOT of high modern religious figures have stopped taking the stories and statements in their respective texts like you mentioned literally and believe them to be poetic.
Lua: "i think this religion, as others, were invented by men that wanted a meaning for his life and the universe."
Personally, I think it's more likely that religion was invented for other reasons. For one, ancient tries needed a leader, and a shaman was most often the leader of the tribe. The shaman would be a 'religious' leader, someone who was believed to talk to the dead or something similar. I believe it either originated from need for leadership, or, more likely, from a need to explain the Universe. Look at how desperatly man even know desires to understand his environment. Thousands of years ago man did not have the capabilities to have large understanding of the universe, and 'God' was a simple explination.
Anyway, welcoe to sciforums and nice post!
TruthSeeker
03-21-02, 10:23 PM
Tyler,
a LOT of high modern religious figures have stopped taking the stories and statements in their respective texts like you mentioned literally and believe them to be poetic.
Probably because anyone wants to listen to it... Anyone likes the Truth... Like Jesus said... if it's from God, the world won't listen to it...
Anyways... it's not only Religious, but it's Scientifical too...
Love,
Nelson
Northwind
03-22-02, 10:05 AM
Originally posted by Hevene
Me and my friends came across this discussion about whether we should believe in science or god and whether god exists at all. I sure want some input from everyone.
For me, I believe in God but they are outside our universe. According to the second law of thermaldynamics that disorders increases in a closed system. If god is within our universe that sure they'll undergo aging so that the only way to explain they live forever is for them to live outside our universe.
It is better to believe in science that it is the only way to save us from disease. With the nano-tech, genetic evolution and quatum theroy, it might help us mankind to achieve eternal youth, while god only provides us with mental support.
I would just like to quickly point out that you first have to show more conclusively that the universe is a closed system.
Also, why do the theists jump on the thermodynamics bandwagon so much?
Tristan
03-22-02, 12:30 PM
I believe we created God to explain natural occurances and anything we could not understand. Faith however is something we all need. Not a religon but faith the emotion I suppose. Science is what gives us medical technology, computers and, well, everything we use today.
Its funny though, that die hard believers in God (christian Religon) are sterotyped to disbeileve in science. And probably the number one example of such an argument is Evolution Vs. Creationism.
TruthSeeker
03-22-02, 01:44 PM
Tristan,
The Bible explain Faith. So, you can read it and, using common sense, draw your own conclusions...
Its funny though, that die hard believers in God (christian Religon) are sterotyped to disbeileve in science. And probably the number one example of such an argument is Evolution Vs. Creationism.
In my church, about one month ago, the pastor talked about Quantum Physics.
That's not the reality for all Christianism, but surely for some...
Love,
Nelson
"Also, why do the theists jump on the thermodynamics bandwagon so much?
I don't know. Maybe because it has something to do with hot air?
Take care ;)
Hello, haven't been here for a long time, I seemed to have missed a lot.
Truthseeker: a LOT of high modern religious figures have stopped taking the stories and statements in their respective texts like you mentioned literally and believe them to be poetic.
I am still not sure whether god exists or not, may be it is like Truthseeker said:
Perhaps God has a kind of projection, like light does. Light can appear as particle and as wave... so God can be within us (in a "wave state") and beyond the Universe (as a "particle"). It all depends in the perspective of the observer.
For all the believers, I think the bible could be a representative of everything, ie. the creation of the world etc. But we could not take it exactly, as the time frame inside the bible just couldn't allow the creation of all the moutains we have and etc.
But how can we even be sure of science, the theories we have are made to fit a certain observation. Like the Quntum Theory, it was first discovered to explain the photoelectric effect and black body radiation since the classical physics just doesn't fit.
May be in a few decades, everything we know now will be proven wrong.
The beauty of science is that we can consider things 'theories'.
Ask a deeply religious person if they think their beliefs are 'theories' or hard 'facts' and what do you think you'll get?
Most orthodox religious people will NEVER open their mind to possibilities of incorrectness (is that a word?) in their texts.
TruthSeeker
03-29-02, 12:26 PM
Hevene,
For all the believers, I think the bible could be a representative of everything, ie. the creation of the world etc. But we could not take it exactly, as the time frame inside the bible just couldn't allow the creation of all the moutains we have and etc.
Yeah... I've been meditating on that. I'm already drawing conclusions. I think I'll start a new thread...
May be in a few decades, everything we know now will be proven wrong.
Halleluiah!!
Finally someone understood that!
Tyler,
Most orthodox religious people will NEVER open their mind to possibilities of incorrectness (is that a word?) in their texts.
That's true... but I believe that is because it came from God...
Love,
Nelson
At a very basic level truthseeker, what action shows more strength in an individual; being able to admitt they were wrong or being so stubborn that you can not admitt a single thing is slightly off.
TruthSeeker
03-29-02, 02:48 PM
Being able to admit that they were wrong, of course...
But that's not my case because I've experienced what I've been telling you around here...
Love,
Nelson
anim8er
03-30-02, 03:01 PM
I hear "Believers" ask the question about the "faith in Science" or "Belief in Science". They don't understand that Science is not a belief or faith. These questions are from a religious bias and perspective. The Laws of Physics are absolute fact, pure and simple. Science has a solid base of proven Laws, only when the knowledge base is expanding do you get into theories and holes in proven knowledge. Science is the persuit of absolute knowledge. To reach this, theories have to be proven and repeatable by third parties. The principles of evolution are fact. They can be demonstrated in the laboratory with creatures that have short life-spans, by example with fossil evidence and through computer simulation (that mirrors known evidence). It's the nature of the persuit of knowledge that for every question that science answers, a new one is created.
Absolute knowledge is universal. A true religion or god would be universal to all human beings and not segregated to a single culture or ethnic group. You cannot send people to hell for not believing in Jesus if they lived a life without having heard of him in the first place. All religion as an explanation of the creation of the universe, an afterlife or other understanding of the universe in general, is false. What religion does, is provide a system of laws for behavior and culture. A system that promotes the long-term survival of a group or culture.
The meaning of life is Procreation. How it is applied is very complex and subject to the different techniques used in various cultures.
In America we once had "Christian Values". Then it was "Judaic/Christian Values". Today it is "Family Values". In all human cultures that are civilized, it is recognized that a "family" is the basic organized structure for human procreation. It is a universal principle for human behavior that will ensure the continued procreation of humanity. That is the meaning of life and the purpose of religion. It has nothing to do with the workings of the universe. Only Science can provide those answers.
TruthSeeker
03-30-02, 06:46 PM
anim8er,
First, welcome to sciforums! :)
Absolute knowledge is universal. A true religion or god would be universal to all human beings and not segregated to a single culture or ethnic group. You cannot send people to hell for not believing in Jesus if they lived a life without having heard of him in the first place. All religion as an explanation of the creation of the universe, an afterlife or other understanding of the universe in general, is false. What religion does, is provide a system of laws for behavior and culture. A system that promotes the long-term survival of a group or culture.
Yes... but and if all Religions talk about the same God but explains in a different way, through a different perspective? ;)
In America we once had "Christian Values". Then it was "Judaic/Christian Values". Today it is "Family Values". In all human cultures that are civilized, it is recognized that a "family" is the basic organized structure for human procreation. It is a universal principle for human behavior that will ensure the continued procreation of humanity. That is the meaning of life and the purpose of religion. It has nothing to do with the workings of the universe. Only Science can provide those answers.
Again. And if Religions are talking about the same God? Another thing to coincider... how would you explain something that we knoe today 2000 ago? You had to describe it using your background, isn't it? For instance, most of Religions describe "clouds". What would be "clouds". UFOs, perhaps...
And Nostradamus describing the planes that crashed in the WTC as "birds"...? And the WTC itself as "Twins"? Do you see my point here.
I want to make clear that I want a healthy discussion here. ;)
Love,
Nelson
anim8er
03-30-02, 10:38 PM
First of all, all religions do not all talk about a single God as in Christianity, Judiaism and Islam. So, diluting any religion to fit a "universal religion" model does not work.
I do not know what Nostradamus has or has not said. Unless I can read the actual text for myself, everything I would hear about his "prophecies" is someone else's interpretation. I do remember seeing a television show years ago about Nostradamus and they presented a scenerio where the world watched an attack on New York City. It was presented as an attack by ICBM with a nuclear warhead and it took two missles to get the job done. Is this the story you are refering to?
Having been raised in a christian home. I'm aware of biblical prophecies that have come true. My dad, who studied to be a Pastor, had a book written in the early 1900's, before airplanes, called the Dispensational Truth. It predicted the reemergence of the state of Israel, this was 20-30 years before it happened. When I was a teenager, in the '70s, I remember one dispensational preacher say that they found some of these prophesies hard to fathom because it required the fall of the Soviet Union in order to come true. They did not think this would happen for atleast another 50 years from that time, when in fact it happened in less than 20 years. Sure, all of this stuff is interesting. But Jules Verne predicted the exploration of the moon 70+ years before it happened. Does this make him a prophet? If you are vague enough, almost anything can be read into a prophecy what they want in hind sight.
TruthSeeker
03-31-02, 12:02 AM
anim8er,
First of all, all religions do not all talk about a single God as in Christianity, Judiaism and Islam. So, diluting any religion to fit a "universal religion" model does not work.
And if Politheist Religions talks about different perspectives of onje God. For example, why Zeus in the Greek Mithology is called the "God of Gods"? Is there any God above God? No. God is supposed to be the hightest deity. So why "God of Gods". Simple: because all other Gods are different perspectives from the same. It's hard to imagine, but it makes sense. ;)
I do remember seeing a television show years ago about Nostradamus and they presented a scenerio where the world watched an attack on New York City.It was presented as an attack by ICBM with a nuclear warhead and it took two missles to get the job done. Is this the story you are refering to?
Do you read the news? I'm talking about WTC and the planes that crashed! Two planes... two missiles... that's interesting... :)
The interpretation in this TV show was wrong. The true thing already happened in the WTC...
But Jules Verne predicted the exploration of the moon 70+ years before it happened. Does this make him a prophet? If you are vague enough, almost anything can be read into a prophecy what they want in hind sight.
It depends how many times you get it right...
I already made some prophecies. The WTC was one of the last ones... One was that someone in my family would die when I would come back home from holiday. My grandma died about 2 or 3 months after I came back from my holiday... I've done, or received, or whatever, the prophecy about 2 years before.
Btw... good imagination is allways healthy... mainly when it gives people ideas, like submarine and space traveling, all based in old Sci-fi stuff. ;)
Love,
Nelson
I was 7/8 on my post-Sept 11th predictions. And the eigth has until next september 11th to evolve (that is, a war on Iraq).
I'm no prophet. I just follow logical thought and figure out what will happen.
Truthseeker how can you be christian and talk the way you do? That theory has been around for countless years (I believe I first saw it in a poem, The Elephant). The fact is if you believe in the teachings of the Bible you can not believe that theory. That, or you believe God is a very, very horrible creature that changed his teachings many times throughout the years. And decided to only give it to certain peoples.
anim8tor said that it is a cruel attitude to punish those who have never even heard of Christ for sending them to hell (as, by christian belief they would, as they never accept Christ into their soul). I say this; if Christ himself came to Earth and proved Christianity as right, I would still rather go to hell than a heaven run by a lord like that.
TruthSeeker
03-31-02, 12:25 AM
Tyler...
What I've told you in the other thread...?
I'll remind you.
Christ is Love.
Those who have Love in their Heart already accepted Christ in their Hearts!!! For Christ is Love!!!!
If you accept Love in your Heart, you accept Christ too and you go to the Heavens. You actualy live a life much better.
That's what I'm telling you! That Love is not just a chemical reaction, it is more important then that! I don't know the scientifical implications, but I know pretty well the Religious, Spiritual and Pscychological ones.
I believe in the Bible. And I beleive that both the theory and the Bible are right. Now that you agree that I have some knowledge on the subject, please, listen to me closer...
Love,
Nelson
I've posted my knowledge of Biblical atrocities far too many times to do it again - I'll just link to the damn things:
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty.html
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/intolerance.html
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/injustices.html
Happy reading.
And, fucking hell, if God knew enough to predict the September 11 attacks, he could have given us a little 'heads up' on them. If God is omnipotent, he is either sadistic or indifferent.
Tyler:
anim8tor said that it is a cruel attitude to punish those who have never even heard of Christ for sending them to hell (as, by christian belief they would, as they never accept Christ into their soul). I say this; if Christ himself came to Earth and proved Christianity as right, I would still rather go to hell than a heaven run by a lord like that.
Damn right! And, Nelson, I don't think you can argue with John 3:18 or Matthew 25:46 and 25:41 and Mark 4:11-12.
Sorry, your own Bible disagrees.
TruthSeeker
03-31-02, 01:00 AM
Xev,
And, fucking hell, if God knew enough to predict the September 11 attacks, he could have given us a little 'heads up' on them. If God is omnipotent, he is either sadistic or indifferent.
He told me. But I couldn't do nothing. Those who can do don't want even to listen to Him... :(
Damn right! And, Nelson, I don't think you can argue with John 3:18 or Matthew 25:46 and 25:41 and Mark 4:11-12.
I wouldn't use those. I use my own interpretation to prove the Bible right. I already explained it in the post above...
I wonder about those things in the Bible. You can be sure tomorrow I'll ask my pastor to look at this site and give me an explanation. ;)
Love,
Nelson
Why choose christ? Why not another religion?
How do you choose one then?
If the Elephant theory is right, why choose a religion?
You know, in Toronto right now there's a serious battle going on because the Catholic church refuses to let a boy take his boyfriend to their prom.
Woohoo, yay christianity.
The only true plus I can see for religion now adays is Jesus Christ Superstar.
Which I happen to be watching right now.
Ha! The Catholic Church is one to talk...bloody hypocrites, prohibiting normal sexual expression while they have the whole molestation scandal going on.
Tyler: Reminds me of my favorite George Carlin quote:
"The only good thing to come out of religion was the music"
TruthSeeker: It depends how many times you get it right...
Exactly, how many times had I heard this and that today is gonna be the end of the world? And, it never happened.
I reckon, a prophecy is something that is likely to happen, but it i all within the control of our hands. It is similar to our destiny, as I mensioned in one of my other posts using seeds for example, it's destiny is to become plants according to its genes, but a large percentage gets eaten or die, so even destiny is a vague idea, it all depends what happens, so you can exactly predict what is gonna happen, it's just more likely to happen, get what I mean? (sorry bad expressions)
There are many different religions. It's just funny that each different God looks different. From each place where the religion originate, the God often looks like the people. I think, it it more likely for the God to exist as a symbol or explainations for what the people don't understand at the time. If the God is universal, shouldn't they all look similar, instead with all the variations?
Religion is there to give people support but it should not be taken one hundred percent, after all, science it going to save you from diseases. What did the bible say? Sickness is a sin? How is that gonna help?
Hevene, very nice picture on your avatar there.
Thanks Adam, it took me ages to find a nice one.:D
TruthSeeker
04-01-02, 06:31 PM
Tyler,
Why choose christ? Why not another religion?
How do you choose one then?
Christianism is a Religion based on Love and virtues...
Like all the others...
So, you can choose other, if you want...
If the Elephant theory is right, why choose a religion?
I don't know this theory... can't talk about it...
You know, in Toronto right now there's a serious battle going on because the Catholic church refuses to let a boy take his boyfriend to their prom.
That's a hard issue...
Xev,
Ha! The Catholic Church is one to talk...bloody hypocrites, prohibiting normal sexual expression while they have the whole molestation scandal going on.
You are right. The nowdays church is decadent. They are not religious... they just want money and power as most of people in this world... :(
In the times of Christ it was already like that... you can read it in the Bible. Jesus didn't like it though... and still don't like the way church is going...
Hevene,
There are many different religions. It's just funny that each different God looks different. From each place where the religion originate, the God often looks like the people. I think, it it more likely for the God to exist as a symbol or explainations for what the people don't understand at the time. If the God is universal, shouldn't they all look similar, instead with all the variations?
They are all the same... but they use different "languages" to pass the message. For example, how would you describe an UFO 2000 years ago? Someone could say a cloud. Other could say a sausage. There is a huge difference between a cloud and a sausage isn't it? But in this example they are describing the same thing! People look to things with different perspectives and describe them in different manners. Words are nothing in Religion if you can't interpret them properly. How to make it properly? By adding the History and Cultural background of the civilization that made it. ;)
Religion is there to give people support but it should not be taken one hundred percent, after all, science it going to save you from diseases. What did the bible say? Sickness is a sin? How is that gonna help?
The Bible don't say that sickness is sin. Sickness in the Bible is a result of a sin. And actually, the Bible promise divinal health for those who have faith. And to have faith you have to have a pure Heart, what make you lovely to other people... :)
Where did you find that picture...?
Love,
Nelson
Yang´s_Matrix
04-02-02, 05:31 AM
I personally think that sciene and religion can exist together, altough there is a heavy friction between them. If religions would be open minded and not too stiff, they could simply try to answer into lifes fundamental questions, while sciene would try to explain that how does the universe work.
But today, religions have perhaps too much history behind them, they have sometimes tried to replace sciene with theyr own divine theories which continue to exist even today.
I hope that time will set things right, religion should provide people (who are willing to believe) with purpose of life, happiness, motivation and strenght when it is most needed, while sciene should try to map the complex processes of universe.
goofyfish
04-02-02, 08:19 AM
Hi there, Yang -
Your signature lines:
"I sit in my cubicle, here on the motherworld..."
Pretty sure that was Betrand Russell.
Peace.
TruthSeeker
04-02-02, 04:26 PM
Yang´s_Matrix,
I hope that time will set things right, religion should provide people (who are willing to believe)with purpose of life, happiness, motivation and strenght when it is most needed, while sciene should try to map the complex processes of universe.
How woyld you describe the Universe 5000 years ago without scientific language? ;)
Love,
Nelson
And so it makes sense then that people, who couldn't explain the universe, but wanted to, did so by the only means they could - god.
TruthSeeker: Where did you find that picture...?
I believe you're talking about the avatar? I went through you know those wallpaper site, and found it. This one is from www.webshots.com
Cheers
TruthSeeker
04-04-02, 09:48 PM
Tyler,
And so it makes sense then that people, who couldn't explain the universe, but wanted to, did so by the only means they could - god.
The characteristics they pointed about God where the characteristics of the Truth. The only real difference between Science and Religion is that Science builds up knowledge in the direction of the Truth and Religion stabilishes what's Truth and from that develops the understanding of the world.
Science:
Knowledge--->Truth
Religion:
Truth---------->Knowledge
Hevene,
Thanks. :)
Love,
Nelson
Nelson:
No. Science is a way of life, a way of thinking....a journey. Science is about the search for truth, and the attempt to verify that what we have learned is truth.
Science is a journey, religion is a (alleged) end.
Yang´s_Matrix
04-05-02, 03:22 AM
"Your signature lines:
"I sit in my cubicle, here on the motherworld..."
Pretty sure that was Betrand Russell."
Thanks goofyfish, the circle is compleate :)
"How would you describe the Universe 5000 years ago without scientific language?"
You are right ofcourse TruthSeeker, people 5000 years ago didn´t even know sciene, they didn´t know just how much technology could help us and they thought that the world would probaply stay the same until the end of the world. They thought that everything would have been discovered already.
But now that we know, that there´s still much to learn and a lot that we don´t know... which should we put our faith? In religions that rely on faith and legends to tell us the truth? Or sciene which tries to find the truth with modern means?
Both choises have theyr flaws.
"Science is a journey, religion is a (alleged) end."
Perhaps so Xev, altough religions themselves have made quite a journeys themselves. It´s amazing when how people can change theyr point of view, saying that THIS IS THE TRUTH!!! and then few years later say, ok, I was wrong... but THIS is the ABSOLUTE TRUTH!!! :)
Some people stay loyal to one thing for theyr whole life... some people go to a journey and change theyr point of view many times in theyr life.
Sticking loyal to one thing might ofcourse seem that you have found the absolute truth while changing your point of view many times might seem that you are uncertain, but which teaches more? :confused:
Jesus Yang!where the hell have you been?:( missed you...
bye!
James R
04-05-02, 09:22 AM
<i>The only real difference between Science and Religion is that Science builds up knowledge in the direction of the Truth and Religion stabilishes what's Truth and from that develops the understanding of the world.</i>
Science is self correcting. (Mostly,) religion is dogmatic. Religion has no means by which to develop a better understanding of the world, since it already claims to have all the answers.
TruthSeeker
04-05-02, 08:08 PM
Yang´s_Matrix,
Not exactly what I meant. I meant that to describe the future, they had to use their present knowledge. Another thing, they had prophecies so they knew the future...
James R,
Religion knows the Truth and FROM the Truth, explains everything. The characteristics of Truth are easy to find out and I'll explain it later, in another thread...
Science goes from observation and analizis to the Truth. Religion comes from a stabilized Truth. That's all...
Love,
Nelson
Yang´s_Matrix
04-05-02, 08:18 PM
Sorry Zion, been busy and too lazy to get into this site :o
But now I´m back. :cool:
"Science is self correcting. (Mostly,) religion is dogmatic."
I agree with James R, sciene practises self-critisism which makes it more open and less subjective... but also harder to believe in... when it´s so cold.
It´s perhaps easier to believe in religion which is more subjective, gives hope etc.
I read this sometime ago, that a research had been done which showed that the people believes in god has a longer lifespan then the people only believe in science (about 7 years I think). May be believe in god have some effect on the human body?
Yang´s_Matrix
04-06-02, 05:50 PM
Less stress... when you have eternal life insurance ;)
Northwind
04-08-02, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Tyler,
Christianism is a Religion based on Love and virtues...
Like all the others...
So, you can choose other, if you want...
*ahem*
Christianity is a bizarre cannibal cult based upon a human sacrifice.
The fact that it is tolerated and even encouraged is nothing more than a sign of how far humanity has to go.
TruthSeeker
04-08-02, 12:50 AM
Northwind,
Sorry, but you are just one more person that doesn't understand what's written...
Love,
Nelson
scilosopher
04-08-02, 02:47 PM
As pointed out god is different from religion. Whether god exists and whether religion usually results in good are two entirely separate discussions.
Religion has many interesting perspectives on what it takes to make a good society. Nobody's gotten the recipe right yet, but there are some good ingredients in there. I think the most important aspect of any religion is personal views. Most protestant religions allow personal interpretation of the bible. It makes mass manipulation more difficult.
Whether god exists depends primarily on your definition of god. So far as I can tell there are two reasonable general definitions of god(s) - the unmoved mover and the underlying order of the universe. I'm not sure I believe there was an unmoved mover, but there sure as hell is an underlying order to the universe which is what scientists study. The exact details of any religion may or may not fit with science, but the core of what makes something a religious system need not conflict in my opinion.
Nobody I know of has a complete explanation of the something from nothing or something forever how it all began situation.
Regarding thermodynamics and the completely disordered state that closed systems move towards there are some interesting properties. Energy and matter are equally spread throughout space. This sounds somewhat ordered to me. It just depends on what was termed as order. In information theory maximal information and maximal randomness are the same thing. Definitions are subtle in these studies and grossly simple statements do not capture the true nature of what is understood.
Science is lead by belief. Only math involves proof and not statistical statements. We have no scientific measurements outside a tiny fraction of the universe. Interpret science any way you like and you still have very little solid truth and fact to work with. I still think it's the best process we have for understanding the world around us.
The thing is with so much we don't understand, belief is still more important in shaping our views of the world around us since science isn't enough on its own ...
TruthSeeker
04-08-02, 02:58 PM
scilosopher,
:):cool:
Love,
Nelson
Northwind
04-14-02, 12:46 PM
Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Northwind,
Sorry, but you are just one more person that doesn't understand what's written...
Love,
Nelson
Excuse me, crapflap? Do christians not celebrate the nailing to a tree of the guy they are supposed to regard as saviour? Is the celebration of his nailing up not the highest, holiest holiday they have? Do they, or do they not have rites in which they ritualistic eat the body and drink the blood of this same alleged saviour? Do they not keep morbid statuary of this saviour nailed up, bleeding and dying? Did this saviour not say (supposedly) to his closest disciples, "this is my body, eat me" (paraphrased)?
Sounds like you are the one who does not understand what is written.
scilosopher
04-14-02, 03:34 PM
Northwind,
Lot's of people worship martyrs and those who have sacrificed for others. The crucifixion of Jesus is a symbolic reminder of that.
As far as the act of communion it is clearly intended to be metaphorical as well. Even at the original supper they never ate his actual body. My personal interpretation has always been it was symbolic of his willingness to try and fulfill our human desires with his very essence. I'm not sure if that's what most believe.
There's no need to be nasty even if you don't believe in Christianity. Personally I would never limit my beliefs to Christian ones, but forgiveness, tolerance, the importance of love and many other core tenets are of a lot of importance in having a healthy society even if you don't believe in god at all.
Northwind
04-14-02, 07:03 PM
Try asking a Catholic how "metaphorical" the communion is. Catholics believe that the wafer and wine literally become the flesh and blood of Jesus. Not figuratively, not symbolically, but REALLY. They are ritual cannibals.
As for tolerance, some things should not be tolerated. Are you tolerant of murder? Hatred? Rampant pedophilia? Do you support the spread of ignorance? Do you think we should go back to having slaves? How about the holocaust and Nazism? You tolerate that too?
Christianity is an obscenity. No decent and intelligent person should support it or tolerate it.
TruthSeeker
04-14-02, 09:59 PM
Northwind,
Excuse me, crapflap? Do christians not celebrate the nailing to a tree of the guy they are supposed to regard as saviour? Is the celebration of his nailing up not the highest, holiest holiday they have? Do they, or do they not have rites in which they ritualistic eat the body and drink the blood of this same alleged saviour? Do they not keep morbid statuary of this saviour nailed up, bleeding and dying? Did this saviour not say (supposedly) to his closest disciples, "this is my body, eat me" (paraphrased)?
As I said before... it's all about INTERPRETATION...
The body of Christ is actually the church.
The blood of Christ is actually his ideas.
Just change the words and you'll see it perfectly...
Try asking a Catholic how "metaphorical" the communion is. Catholics believe that the wafer and wine literally become the flesh and blood of Jesus. Not figuratively, not symbolically, but REALLY. They are ritual cannibals.
Honestly... I don't know the Catholics, but in my Gospel church is not like this. Besides that, I don't really think this is true...
As for tolerance, some things should not be tolerated. Are you tolerant of murder? Hatred? Rampant pedophilia? Do you support the spread of ignorance? Do you think we should go back to having slaves? How about the holocaust and Nazism? You tolerate that too?
Christianism is based on Unconditional Love. This is the solution for all problems of the world...
Christianity is an obscenity. No decent and intelligent person should support it or tolerate it.
"Love you enemies"
How can this be obscene?
scilosopher,
There's no need to be nasty even if you don't believe in Christianity. Personally I would never limit my beliefs to Christian ones, but forgiveness, tolerance, the importance of love and many other core tenets are of a lot of importance in having a healthy society even if you don't believe in god at all.
Thank God there are people like you!! :)
Yes... I agree... :)
Can you take a look in my thread "I'm not alone..."? I'm being vigorously attacked there... :(
Love,
Nelson
scilosopher
04-15-02, 01:39 AM
Northwind,
I never said anything about tolerance. I agree there are certain things people shouldn't be tolerant of. Personally I have trouble tolerating people who over generalize and rabidly insult people. You seem stricken to massive over generalization and unnecessary rudeness.
My parents are both decent and intelligent and they support Christianity. My guess is that people practicing every religion that exists have done abominable things. That does not mean that the teachings of the religion are at fault even if the machinery of that religion does soil it's image. Nazi scientists did some pretty disgusting stuff too. If there are any groups that have really kept there hands clean throughout history I would be quite interested to hear about them.
If you don't mind my asking? What happened that makes you hate christianity so?
Truthseeker,
Thanks. What forum is that thread on, I can certainly give my opinion if you like.
TruthSeeker
04-15-02, 01:50 AM
Free Thoughts... :)
"Christianism is based on Unconditional Love. This is the solution for all problems of the world... "
Christians have claimed to love their enemies for 200 years. Yet did they not launch 9 holy wars?
As for it being the solution, even if it was how do we implement it? Are you going to force everyone to unconditionaly love? Are you going to go about trying to enforce this belief on everyone?
Are you ever going to stop sounding like Hitler and Stalin?
TruthSeeker
04-16-02, 11:31 PM
Tyler,
Christians have claimed to love their enemies for 200 years. Yet did they not launch 9 holy wars?
Those were NOT true Christians...
How many times I'll have to say that...?
Read the Bible... it's WRITTEN there:
"Love your enemies."
As for it being the solution, even if it was how do we implement it? Are you going to force everyone to unconditionaly love? Are you going to go about trying to enforce this belief on everyone?
Tyler, if only you realize that you can make the difference in ALL Sciforums... I would be already satisfied... :)
Are you ever going to stop sounding like Hitler and Stalin?
I seem authoritarian, isn't it...?
Ok... sorry about seeming a little authoritharian...
But what I'm saying here is:
Love each other!
And not:
Hate those people!...
I wish you and all lots of Love... :)
Honestly... in my Heart... :)
I will hold you dearly in my Heart.
Love,
Nelson
Truthseeker,
Do you believe in self-defense?
If an intruder breaks into your home with the intent to kill you and is about to do so unless you shoot him first, what would you do? If you don’t shoot him first then you will surely die, and he is then likely to kill the rest of your family.
If you love everyone then you cannot defend yourself, you must turn the other cheek and let God seek revenge. In which case your whole family will die.
The intruder is clearly evil and killing him first will enable you and your family to survive. Assuming you love your family would you not want to protect them by killing the intruder?
Another example:
You come across a terrorist in a large city and who is about to detonate a nuclear bomb that will kill a million people. The only way to stop him is to kill him. Does your unconditional love extend to the terrorist so that you will allow him to live and let a million other people die?
Cris
TruthSeeker
04-18-02, 01:19 AM
Cris,
This is a hard issue to discuss without bringing my beliefs about the power of Love. I truly believe in the power of Love and clearly exalt it. I have my reasons to believe in It. I can't discuss it rationally though. I'll think about a way to explain my view in a rational manner.
Love,
Nelson
truthseeker,
That's fine. Think it through.
dhomaila
11-11-06, 02:06 AM
i believe there is a god; but i believe we have collectively missunderstood him/her. the problem with the many debates involving god, science, evolution, morality, religion, etc. is we have never considered wether our definition of god is accurate. more simply put; what if we are were wrong?
i am open to the idea of a less than perfect god. since the perfection of god seems to be the source of conflict with science; why don't we just assume he isn't perfect. we function quite well in a world full of 99.999%. why is it that we need god to be 100%?
for example the moment we assume that god is omniscient we open the floodgates of pre-destination and unpreventable imorality. if god actually knows 100% (all) this would mean our every action is divinely scripted. however if we assume that god does not know everything; he only knows all that can be known (this excludes our future chioces) the conflict is resolved.
this planet has had great leaders that were far less than perfect; so imagine if there abilities were 10 times that of an average person. i believe god is not perfect by the standars of religous man; but he/she is as perfect as any being may become without being in conflict with reason and science.
this is not a view that would be widely accepted by popular belief systems. ironicly this is the only approach that would help them make-up ground in these on going debates. since none of us have actual proof that god exist in the many omni- states; why not just assume that he/she is not perfect. i comfortable with god just being more perfect than i could ever hope to be.
just something to think about.
Prince_James
11-11-06, 02:52 AM
THOU
SHALT
NOT
COMMITETH
THREAD
NECROMANCY!
Thus sayeth the PRINCE!
"Love your enemies."
Read the parts of the Bible that talk about killing your enemies and taking their women and children :mad:
fantastic image
http://z.about.com/d/atheism/1/7/5/4/3/Both-Sides-e.jpg
Teach me both sides!
Evolution
The holocaust
Earth's shape
astrology
civil war
american slavery
Hevene
Me and my friends came across this discussion about whether we should believe in science or god and whether god exists at all. I sure want some input from everyone.
For me, I believe in God but they are outside our universe. According to the second law of thermaldynamics that disorders increases in a closed system. If god is within our universe that sure they'll undergo aging so that the only way to explain they live forever is for them to live outside our universe.
It is better to believe in science that it is the only way to save us from disease. With the nano-tech, genetic evolution and quatum theroy, it might help us mankind to achieve eternal youth, while god only provides us with mental support.
Actually entropy increases in any system regardless of whether or not it is closed. I've heard this argument before. What you really mean is that without an external source of energy the entropy of any systen will cease. I will take a positive view on this issue, think of it as a favor:D . The only end or "outlet" of the universe we know today are black holes, nothing escape a black hole. We believe there is a huge black hole in the centre of the universe. Black holes have a jet stream at both ends, this jets create magnetic waves which provides energy into the sorroundings(Ironically, the end of the universe is also responsible for sustaining it in a way). So with examples like this...its possible the universe can sustain itself, but the question is whether this is the hand of God? I believe in God too, there have been many Gods but I have chosen to believe them all, I really hate religious topics because I don't believe I am qualified to answer their beleaguering questions. I would give the same advice to anyone.
Think about it this way. The scientist invents things to better my life, I usually do not question what they invent but I use it. The spiritualists also betters my life with their believes and blessings, no reason why I should refuse that either. Whatever it is that people want to bring as an idea, as long as it's not going to harm me, I believe. You only live once. Close this thread.
weed_eater_guy
11-11-06, 12:29 PM
"Oh my science... *head explodes*" Anyone seen south park? There was an episode with kind of a comical look at this issue.
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