Hitler, The Spear of Destiny, and the Jews.

[The Gaour]

Something else i've been pondering. I know there's previously been a different thread regarding Hitler, but stay with me.


I'm sure most of you are aware of what the spear of destiny, or the holy lance is/was. (if not - http://ourworld.cs.com/argentprime/spear.htm and further reading - http://web.org.uk/picasso/spear.html ) . Also, i'm sure most of you have seen it referred to in Constantine.

The holder of the spear was said to be able to conquer the world, and upon leaving the holders possesion that person would soon die. I've read of previous kings and emperors, etc that have won battles and then lost them upon losing the spear, and then soon afterwards dying.

The spear, of course, was that which apparently struck the christian messiah, "Jesus" whilst he was upon the crucifix.

Now that that's all out of the way, here's what i've been thinking about.
We all know that Hitler was said to have committed suicide (the same day that the spear of destiny fell from his possesion, taken by an american army regiment), and we all know of the Jewish persecution in WW2.

Now, Jesus was considered a Jew. The christian bible indicates that he was a jew, eg the scarlet robe and the announcement of him being the "king of the jews".

Anyway.... Do you think that Hitlers main concentration on exterminating the Jews could have been some sort of hidden agenda, for persecuting Jesus himself?

This of course would have to take into account that the spear of destiny and all of it's myths were true, and that hitler didn't kill himself by his own free will, but that of the destiny of losing possesion of the spear.

I hope you're all still with me :D

[Hapsburg]

Huh. I thought hitler was raised as a Catholic...his father was catholic, his mother was catholic, he went to a catholic school...he grew up in a mostly-catholic area...I asssumed he was a catholic...so, why would be have a personal vendetta against jesus...the core of catholicism?

[The Gaour]

you make a good point. unfortunately i havn't done much research about hitler's upbringing, and this is just something i've been thinking about. thanks for the enlightenment.

ps: before someone says it, i know that jews arn't a race (also, i read somewhere that according to judaism if you're born of a jewish mother this automatically makes you jewish). also i don't think hitler would think much about the intricacies of being jewish either.

[outlandish]

I recomend reading Lenni Brenner's "zionism in the age of dictators

"http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/

Chapter 7: "Hitler looks at zionism"

http://www.marxists.de/middleast/brenner/ch07.htm

[Xev]

If I had a penis I would most definitely refer to it as the "spear of destiny"

"Anyway.... Do you think that Hitlers main concentration on exterminating the Jews could have been some sort of hidden agenda, for persecuting Jesus himself?"

Hitler was a Christian.

""I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work."

That being said, Hitler did privately advocate - and had some plans for - re-establishing the native German religion.

I think this may be the last word:

http://www.redrat.net/thoughts/iraq/gott_mit_uns.jpg

(By the way, I would live on Ramen for a month if I could find a belt buckle like this)

[Baron Max]

(By the way, I would live on Ramen for a month if I could find a belt buckle like this)

Xev, if you lived in Texas, you could have it made relatively cheaply! Certainly a lot less problem than eating Ramen noodles for a month. :)

Baron Max

[Xev]

Baron Max, if I lived in Texas I could have a lot of wonderful things.
Namely firearms, solitude and desert sunsets.

[Hapsburg]

Man, I'd live on Ramen noodles for year just because ramen noodles are awesome. If I could save money in the process, and buy cool militaria, all the better....

[The Gaour]

outlandish, i know about zionism, and i'm aware that the jews arn't a race. i was merely referring to jesus in the x-ian bible being referred to as a jew.
also, as a footnote, according to the Torah you can be born a jew if your mother was jewish.

[River Ape]

You should seriously consider the possibility that Jesus was not Jewish -- unless, of course, you consider that his father, God, was Jewish. The Bible does not teach that Mary was the biological mother of Jesus -- contributing half of his genes. Jesus was the "son" element of the Holy Trinity, and thus 100% God (not 50%).

[Hapsburg]

Jesus, if he existed, is said to have practised the jewish religon. That'd make him jewish IMHO.

[River Ape]

You don't think he was a Christian, then?
In regard to Judaism, do you not recall his repeated turn of phrase, "Ye have heard it say . . . but I say unto you . . . " ?
Consult Matthew 5.

[Hapsburg]

Christians were jews. Early christianity was just a sect of Judaism. I still consider christianity to be just a large sect of Judaism.

Oh, and how the fuck do you expect me to consult a bible for quotes, when I do not have, nor even have had, nor ever will have, a bible?

[Baron Max]

You should read the Bible, Hap, it's actually quite interesting and, somewhat, informative and educational. You don't have to believe the crap, but you don't believe the stuff you read in modern fiction novels, do you? ;=)

Baron Max

[Prince_James]

The notion that Hitler's attacks on the Jews translates to attacks against Jesus is ridiculous. Jesus may have been ethnically/racially and religiously a Jew, his doctrines and beliefs also clashed with Judaism in a massive manner. You know, the whole "I am the son of God" thing.

[Hapsburg]

You should read the Bible, Hap,
Fuck. No. I. Shouldn't.

it's actually quite interesting and, somewhat, informative and educational.
Lies and fantasy are not educational.

You don't have to believe the crap,
Good, 'cause I don't.

but you don't believe the stuff you read in modern fiction novels, do you?
Good point. Still, though, I reading up that fucking book.

[River Ape]

Oh, and how the fuck do you expect me to consult a bible for quotes, when I do not have, nor even have had, nor ever will have, a bible?
It's on the web, old bean! (Many times over!)

[outlandish]

The notion that Hitler's attacks on the Jews translates to attacks against Jesus is ridiculous. Jesus may have been ethnically/racially and religiously a Jew, his doctrines and beliefs also clashed with Judaism in a massive manner. You know, the whole "I am the son of God" thing.


his doctrines and beliefs also clashed with Judaism

In terms of inherent philosophy of the two then no. The basic principle are common to the 3 faiths.
Jesus clashed with the jewish heirachy and priests at the time, but this was becuase they were corrupt.


. You know, the whole "I am the son of
Jesus never directly stated or even alluded to the fact that he was ever the "son of God". This whole notion started with the gospels (or some such, my biblical knowledge is sketchy) and paul or whatever his name was, but there's no use arguing with the Baptists, since they will always pull the "holy trinity" shit on you. :rolleyes:

[outlandish]

You don't think he was a Christian, then?
In regard to Judaism, do you not recall his repeated turn of phrase, "Ye have heard it say . . . but I say unto you . . . " ?
Consult Matthew 5.


You don't think he was a Christian, then?
Why view them as seperate and differing entities? I'm guessing you're a baptist right? (which would explain a lot)

I think to get a more overal perspective in how the the inherent philosophy of the 3 faiths aren't separate entities, but rather constituants of a more wider and whole basic philosophy it's ineresting to read thr Quran.
I've heard (although my knowledge on this too is sketchy) that the prophet Isa (jesus) is mentioned in the Quran more than the prophet Mohammed.

And most certainly We gave Musa the Book and We sent apostles after him one after another; and We gave Isa, the son of Marium, clear arguments and strengthened him with the holy spirit, What! whenever then an apostle came to you with that which your souls did not desire, you were insolent so you called some liars and some you slew.
(2.87)

Say: We believe in Allah and what has been revealed to us, and what was revealed to Ibrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqoub and the tribes, and what was given to Musa and Isa and to the prophets from their Lord; we do not make any distinction between any of them, and to Him do we submit.
(3.84)

O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.
(4.171)

http://www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=simple&q1=isa&size=First+100

[River Ape]

I am not a Christian, but from a Christian perspective (I would have thought almost any Christian perspective) I do not consider that Jesus can be considered a Jew. The concept of the Trinity is central to Christianity -- and that concept makes it difficult to consider Jesus as being any more Jewish than God or the Holy Spirit. Merely, in his incarnate form, he dwelt among the Jews. As I have already stated, Mary was not (in the ordinary sense) the biological mother of Jesus. Such a notion would imply a (sexual) act of fertilisation by God.

From a Muslim perspective, I agree that Jesus was Jewish -- but this is not relevant to a discussion of Hitler.

[outlandish]

river ape:

From a Muslim perspective, I agree that Jesus was Jewish
no, from an Islamic perspective he was muslim as were all the prophets that came before him, and as were all those came after him.

[River Ape]

Do Muslims not recognize Jesus as being of the blood of Israel (Jacob)? I am not an authority on this matter. I know only that the Jesus of Islamic tradition is unrecognizable from the Biblical figure.

[outlandish]

Do Muslims not recognize Jesus as being of the blood of Israel (Jacob)? I am not an authority on this matter. I know only that the Jesus of Islamic tradition is unrecognizable from the Biblical figure.

unrecognisable to you and you're perspective which is irrelvant.

Ah so now we have jesus having the blood of jacob and being the son of god LOL

Muslims recognise all the prophets, since they are mentioned in the quran.
As to the exact geneology and lineage of jesus, I don't posess enough knowledge on this matter to comment.

[River Ape]

unrecognisable to you and you're perspective which is irrelvant.
Well, a Jesus who was NOT the Son of God and NOT crucified is radically different from the Biblical Jesus, isn't he?


Ah so now we have jesus having the blood of jacob and being the son of god LOL
Why "so now"? Genealogies linking Jesus to Jacob (via Joseph) are so ancient that a couple of different ones are to be found in the Gospels -- despite the fact that they are somewhat irrelevant if he was the Son of God (rather than Joseph). It's rather an old problem for the comment "so now"!


Muslims recognise all the prophets, since they are mentioned in the quran.
Does that make those prophets Muslim? Are you saying that their thoughts and utterances conformed with the teachings of Mohammed pbuh?


As to the exact geneology and lineage of jesus, I don't posess enough knowledge on this matter to comment.
So why do you take issue with my stating that I thought Muslims viewed him as being on Jewish lineage (of the line of Jacob)? I thought this was the case, but I am open to correction if wrong. I am not sure if Muslims view Mary/Mirium/Marium as having been a Jewess -- but if not it seems to make the Muslim and Biblical versions of Jesus even more unrecognisable as representations of the same figure.

[Darkclouds]

pardon me for interjecting but I do believe outlandish is simply pointing out that first you stated jesus was 100% born of god, with no contribution from Mary at all...then you go on to say he comes from the blood of Jacob...I can see later you add that you were speaking from the muslim view point...supposedly...but it sure doesnt look that way when reading your previous statment:

"Do Muslims not recognize Jesus as being of the blood of Israel (Jacob)?

[dkb218]

You should seriously consider the possibility that Jesus was not Jewish -- unless, of course, you consider that his father, God, was Jewish. The Bible does not teach that Mary was the biological mother of Jesus -- contributing half of his genes. Jesus was the "son" element of the Holy Trinity, and thus 100% God (not 50%).


That's just plain dumb.

[dkb218]

You don't think he was a Christian, then?
In regard to Judaism, do you not recall his repeated turn of phrase, "Ye have heard it say . . . but I say unto you . . . " ?
Consult Matthew 5.


There were no "Christians" during his lifetime.

[Roman]

If Jesus was the son of god, amd wasn't sexually concieved, then he couldn't biologically be Jewish. He'd biologically be deistic.

Jesus was flesh and blood, and grew inside a human womb. There's nothing in the bible to make us think he was made from tin or iron or cotton candy that would deny him the blood of the Jews. Of course, the elves working inside our Holy Mother may have constructed Jesus from a Non-Jewish material.

From a non-Christian stance, Jesus was definitely a Jew. His blood came from Jewish stock who you could trace all the way back to some semi-mythical king that the Jews think is important.

So whatever.

[River Ape]

That's just plain dumb.
You should try to explain yourself better.

[River Ape]

If Jesus was the son of god, amd wasn't sexually concieved, then he couldn't biologically be Jewish.
Precisely.

Jesus was flesh and blood, and grew inside a human womb. There's nothing in the bible to make us think he was made from tin or iron or cotton candy that would deny him the blood of the Jews.
Well, I would say that Catholic teaching DOES deny Jesus the blood of the Jews, and I would suppose that teaching to be based on the Bible. Whether you choose to believe the Bible is up to you, of course.

Hitler's Catholic upbringing, which is where we started, would NOT have taught him that Jesus was Jewish. Had he pursued Catholic doctrine in detail, he would have learned that Mary was virgo intacta before, during, and after the birth of Jesus (and of any other children). Christianity requires a suspension of disbelief so far as biological normality is concerned.

[xylus]

The Spear of Destiny....anyone ever play Tactics Ogre? There was a great GBA game and the whole plot of it was about the spear...
Anyway, I don't think Jesus was Jewish. Maybe his mother was, but that would be irrelevant if he is supposed to be the son of God.

[Hagar]

I'm not sure about Hitler, but I know that Heinrich Himmler and Alfred Rosenberg were anti-christians who saw Christianity as a mideastern import that retarded the progress of the "aryan" race and destroyed Rome. They wished to annihilate the religion. Hitler seemed pretty pragmatic in his views of religion, seeing them as mere tools to control people. He was also a fond admirer of Islam, believing that he could use it to his advantage.

[frostkrig]

The Spear of Destiny....anyone ever play Tactics Ogre? There was a great GBA game and the whole plot of it was about the spear...

Yeah, but what about the Wolfenstein sequel, Spear of Destiny? That game was sweet.

[cosmictraveler]

I'd like to add that Hitler needed vast amounts of money to build his military and my thinking is that the Pope and the Catholic Church gave him what he needed.

[2+2=5]

Hagar
"Hitler seemed pretty pragmatic in his views of religion, seeing them as mere tools to control people. He was also a fond admirer of Islam, believing that he could use it to his advantage. "

Where did you get that from never heard of it before ? :eek:

[mythtronix]

Hitler struggled with Christianity, he saw himself as the German Messiah (a title given to him by Chamberlin and Ekhart). While Nietzsche was the grandpa of the Nazi "philosophy", Hitler idolized the old man's friend-turned-enemy Wagner.
Nietzsche, the aethiest, publilcy chastised Wagner for his conversion to Christianity as a disgusting act of a weakened man. Wagner, a virulent anti-semite (believe that) had to reconcile his christian leanings with the jewish "problem". Wagner, along with a number of loonies back in pre war Germany, refashioned christ as an aryan victim of the jews. Don't ask me exactly how they made that leap, but expect that it had to do with Atlantean like beings, and subteranneans, and Antarctic Nazi UFO bases. Hitler followed Wagner's lead on the Aryan Space Jesus; but he like Mao saw religion as an opiate of the masses. I would highly recommend the book "Secrets of the Holy Lance" (piccard and smith(?)) for anyone interested in this shit. The writers fill in a lot of the blanks on why hitler was interested in the spear of destiny, the true lunacy of the nazis, it's twisted origin. people should learn about this shit so it doesn't happen again -- the story didn't start with Hitler hating the Jews. That hate had old roots, and it's rise to power was fostered by the old men in hats clubs -- and this is happening again. tune in people!

over,
rex

[cosmictraveler]

If I had a penis I would most definitely refer to it as the "spear of destiny"

LOL!! :D

[charles cure]

I am not a Christian, but from a Christian perspective (I would have thought almost any Christian perspective) I do not consider that Jesus can be considered a Jew. The concept of the Trinity is central to Christianity -- and that concept makes it difficult to consider Jesus as being any more Jewish than God or the Holy Spirit. Merely, in his incarnate form, he dwelt among the Jews. As I have already stated, Mary was not (in the ordinary sense) the biological mother of Jesus. Such a notion would imply a (sexual) act of fertilisation by God.

From a Muslim perspective, I agree that Jesus was Jewish -- but this is not relevant to a discussion of Hitler.


the concept of the trinity was added to christianity 300 years or so after the death of Jesus. it became official christian doctrine at the first ecumenical council called the Council of Nicea in 325 ad. thats where the nicene creed came from and its recitation reaffirms a belief in the trinity. up until that point there was much argument between christian sects on the subject, and there has been argument about it since then, although most people putting forth an antitrinitarian view in the early years were executed. perhaps the most notable of these is Michael Servetus who wrote 2 seminal works dismantling the fraud that he believed the trinity to be (they are called On the Errors of the Trinity and Christianity Restored) he was subsequently burned at the stake after a sham trial by the naziesque genevan reformer John Calvin in 1553. Servetus is now considered the patron of the Unitarian Universalist christian church, of which a central tenet is a denial of the holy trinity as a concept essential to knowledge of christ.
that being said, there is little actual evidence that jesus actually existed, let alone what religion he devoted himself to. everything has been postulated, from him being a magician, to a devotee of the ancient egyptian religion, to a jew, or various combinations of other old world religions.

heres a couple of books i found useful on the subject:

the templar revelation
jesus the magician

i dont really think that the spear of destiny had anything to do with hitlers downfall/demise. it was more likely a combination of inhuman arrogance and poorly reasoned tactics. hitler mounted expeditions all over the world looking for artifacts of powerful religious significance, from the holy grail to the spear of destiny, to the ark of the covenant. they turned out to be myths just like his 1000 year reich was.

[Idiotwind]

Morons! Know-it-all know-nothings, that's what you are, I must say.

[skaught]

http://i1226.photobucket.com/albums/ee415/NathielSurefire/ThreadNecro.jpg

[arauca]

The Spear of Destiny....anyone ever play Tactics Ogre? There was a great GBA game and the whole plot of it was about the spear...
Anyway, I don't think Jesus was Jewish. Maybe his mother was, but that would be irrelevant if he is supposed to be the son of God.



To my understanding to be Jewish based on mother it started some in the 1500 on 1600 , before it was based if the father was a Jew , then the offspring was a Jew.
By that definition Jesus was not a Jew.

[arauca]

I'm not sure about Hitler, but I know that Heinrich Himmler and Alfred Rosenberg were anti-christians who saw Christianity as a mideastern import that retarded the progress of the "aryan" race and destroyed Rome. They wished to annihilate the religion. Hitler seemed pretty pragmatic in his views of religion, seeing them as mere tools to control people. He was also a fond admirer of Islam, believing that he could use it to his advantage.

Add this one Gorings , step brother was a Jew.

[wellwisher]

If I recall, when Hitler was a newbie in politics, just starting to move up the ranks, a powerful member of the German government, was constantly against him and his minority party and used to give Hitler a lot of flack from his position of power. This leader was Jewish. He would bust Hitlers balls. As time went on and Hitler began to rise to power, Hitler held a grudge. I often wondered what would have happened if they had become less combative, would Hitler have had a different attitude against the Jews?

[spidergoat]

No.

[Xylene]

I always thought AH was a pagan, and wanted to replace Christianity with the ancient pre-Christian gods of the original German tribes..,.

[Balerion]

To my understanding to be Jewish based on mother it started some in the 1500 on 1600 , before it was based if the father was a Jew , then the offspring was a Jew.
By that definition Jesus was not a Jew.

Are you seriously quoting a seven-year-old post? That poster hasn't even been active on this site since 2008.

C'mon.

[adam2314]

The spear of destiny.... FFS..