Leaving Our System

Discussion in 'Astronomy, Exobiology, & Cosmology' started by fetus_fajitas, Aug 2, 2005.

  1. Does anyone think that it's possible we'll EVER leave our Solar System?
    Let alone Galaxy.

    Travelling at the speed of light - theoretically THE fastest speed possible - it'll take hundreds of years just to CROSS the Galaxy.

    What do you guys think?
     
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  3. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    Solar System is quite possible, Voyager already is leaving it, and it is quite slow.
    Galaxy, duno, if we somehow use Faster than light information transfer which is possible through entangled particles, then maybe,
    or maybe use another dimension (there are 11 according to the M theory (an enchanted string theory)).
    The key issue is what we still don't know. Universe is still a place of mistery and wonder. (British Astronomer Royal Sir Martin Rees)
     
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  5. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    Assuming we, the human race, continue with space exploration, then leaving the Solar System is a given.

    As Avatar said, both Voyager craft are already leaving - and they aren't even accelerating.

    The only problem is that it can't be done on any significant scale with conventional chemical rockets.
    It is estimated that to launch the Space Shuttle out of the solar system and to Alpha Centauri (4 LY away) in a 100 year trip would take more fuel than would fit in an Earth-sized fuel-tank.

    Some systems, such as the Bussard Ramscoop, offer potential - but need to be travelling quite fast to work effectively.

    But it will be possible, one day, to get to other stars. Just not in my lifetime.

    Anti-matter might be a way forward, but to create just 10 tonnes of such fuel using current methods would cost $1.2 trillion dollars a year for the next 7 billion years!!!
     
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  7. Danzinger Registered Member

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    Humans will definitely travel to other stars, eventually. Many theories have already been concieved on how this will be done.

    -The Bussard Ramjet (previously mentioned), it picks up atoms drifting in space and initiates nuclear fusion, then explodes out the back of the craft propelling it forward. Unfortunately, there are many things that aren't feesable with this idea. Nuclear fusion on the go may not even be possible. Another problem is that the ramjet uses a propelant. Yes, it's getting the fuel along the way, but a spacecraft that does not produce heat would be far more efficient.

    -A large scale 'Lifter' sail. Though people are still debating how lifters work, the premise is simple: "A Lifter is an asymmetrical capacitor which uses High Voltage ( > 20KV ) to produce a thrust." In most cases hobbyists are the creators. An old PC moniter usually provides the power output, which is connected to a triangle fashioned of balsa wood and aluminum foil. Turn on the power and WOOSH, up goes the lifter.

    Many scientists see no use for lifters and tend to think they are just hobbyist toys, as even the strongest and largest lifter has only been able to carry a payload of 250g. In space there is no gravity to combat. Who knows how fast a massive lifter with an massive power supply could accelerate to.
    More on lifters can be found at http://jnaudin.free.fr/lifters/main.htm

    -Lastly, laser-powered light sails appear have the best interstellar outlook. Light reflecting off a surface pushes on that surface ever so slightly. If you have a 1 kilometer^2 solar sail and a very powerful laser, it is estimated that a probe could travel to the nearest star within 20 years.
    More on solar sails can be found at http://solarsail.jpl.nasa.gov/introduction/index.html

    The last good link related to interstellar travel is
    http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/research/warp/warp.html

    Heh, good topic. I love this kind of stuff.

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  8. eburacum45 Valued Senior Member

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    The Bussard Ramscoop is inefficient because of drag due to the massive magnetic field; it actually causes more drag than it gains in acceleration. I think there might be a use for the Bussard concept, but as a brake, rather than an acceleration concept.

    Lifter 'sails' are essentially ion drive devices; they are capable of very small thrust only, so if you were to use one to travel out of the solar sytem you would need to supply power to the lifter for thousands of years. A very slow way to get to the stars.

    Laser powered sails look good, except for a few problems; the momentum imparted by light to a sail is quite small, so the acceleration is slow; you would need to apply power for a long time, and the target would be getting smaller all the time It is currently difficult to produce high power, highly collimated beams. Laser sails also do not have a reliable method of decelertion at the destination system. Finally the impact of interstellar dust at speed would rip the sail to shreds (no problem if the sail can be retracted in flight however).

    This website discusses various kinds of sail technology; I am particularly fond of particle beam sails myself.
    Starship Sails

    Other concepts which might allow for high acceleration ships and faster journey times;
    Project Daedalus driven by h-bombs;
    Antimatter Catalysed Fusion fusion of hydrogen catalysed by a small amount of antimatter;
    Antimatter rocket using antimatter annihilation directly to create energy. Despite being the most efficient way to produce energy, this concept has many theoretical problems, particularly the fact that most of the energy produced would be in the form of gamma rays and neutrinos- and it is difficult to obtain thrust from these types of radiation.
     
  9. Sarkus Hippomonstrosesquippedalo phobe Valued Senior Member

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    From what I've read (apologies, no sources spring to mind) the Ramscoop WILL work very well - but only once you pass around 0.06c.
    Up to that point it is inefficient, but after that point it can scoop sufficient material to cause a net acceleration.

    Now admittedly with no sources to support this, this is only heresay, but it may be worth looking into.
    I'll try and find some more info.
     
  10. invert_nexus Ze do caixao Valued Senior Member

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    The problem with these extra 8 dimensions in string theory is that, for one thing, they're very, very small. Tiny. They're all folded up into these little convoluted knots which is why we don't notice them. Not much chance of ramming a starship through one.

    And. For two. They're basically folded up into knots at each point in space. Like beads on a net. I'm not entirely sure how one bead connects to another bead, maybe they're all connected somehow. But, regardless, it would definitely be tricky to utilize them.

    However. String theory isn't the only extra-dimensional theory. Althought most of the rest are more grounded in fi than sci.

    Who knows? Maybe the sci-fi hacks will be right once again and hyperspace will be the answer?
     
  11. cato less hate, more science Registered Senior Member

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    here is an idea I just had while reading the thread. what if you have many lasers orbiting, and being powered, by the sun. now these lasers would propel you by shooting their bursts at just the right time, in just the right direction to hit your solar sail. this would fix (partly) the problem with a solar sail losing its effectiveness far away from the sun, because the laser would always travel in a cylinder, not losing intensity inversely proportional to radius, like the sun would. it would be pretty hard to aim once you were significantly far away but it would certainly be better than just using the sun.

    moreover, perhaps it would be best to have these things orbiting the sun perpendicular to your travel, so it could fire its laser at any time, with some adjustment to its aim.

    p.s. lenses and mirrors could do about the same thing.
     
  12. jayleew Who Cares Valued Senior Member

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    Are there any explosive reactions we might produce in a vaccum?
     
  13. Clockwood You Forgot Poland Registered Senior Member

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    If you can't get a trip done in a single human lifetime... why does it matter if the voyage lasts a hundred years or a thousand or ten thousand? Even before you get there, you are still doing the job of keeping the human race alive. There will be scientific, cultural, and evolutionary advancement along the way.

    I would be perfectly happy to stap a complex the size of New York state onto Pluto's moon and send the whole thing drifting towards a nearby star.
     
  14. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    suspended animation

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    designing a good human-friendly freezer supposedly is easier than FTL travel
     
  15. Clockwood You Forgot Poland Registered Senior Member

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    Suspended animation has limited practicality unless you find a way to give this thing the high lord of self repair systems. Things will go wrong and break. I doubt that a single part of the ship will remain intact from start to finish. You will probably need your own factory complex to produce what is needed along with triple redundancy of everything.

    Lord knows if any other forms of propultion will actually be possible.
     
  16. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    Still seems easier than FTL travel.
     
  17. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    I think here nanotech comes into play. Self repairing materials. Already being researched.
     
  18. Clockwood You Forgot Poland Registered Senior Member

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    Nanotech dies easily. Sunlight or a weak static charge can blow structures that small to hell and back. You will be getting bombarded with radiation we haven't even named yet so I wouldn't count on that stuff to survive. It also has some insane requirements if you want it to work on anything macroscopic.
     
  19. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    19,083
    Well, you are free to try blowing NY into space or trying to get divine insight into FTL travel, meanwhile I'll keep my bet on nanotech and suspended animation.
    Less talk, more work, right?
     
  20. blobrana Registered Senior Member

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    2,214
    Hum,
    Yeah,
    We could just wait for the next passing star.

    I haven’t the astrometry handy, but I remember that the next one is due in about 45,000 years time, with a further six stars coming quite close over the next 3 million years time…

    Though we may not be `human` by then…
     
  21. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    How close?
     
  22. Clockwood You Forgot Poland Registered Senior Member

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    Wait a billion years or so and we will collide with the Andromeda galaxy. We definitely won't be human by then, but it is still convenient real estate.

    I figure that we have to spread ourselves out now before we get trapped by another darkage or our own extinction.
     
  23. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    There is no necessity the human race should survive.
     

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