Exist...do we?/everything?

[Tom]

do we exist...prove it!

my theory,
anything we can image exists!

[Holy]

Well Tom!

I like these kind of questions! or should I say philosophizes?

I can only prove to myself that I exist, but I can not prove to myself that you exist, that is physically exists.

Perhaps looking at it physically I don't even exist, but I think therefore I am.

All of reality as I know it can be a made up world from my own existence, meaning I am imagining all of the world and I am the only consciousness that exist.

But to answer your question, I can not prove to you that we exist, I can only prove to myself that I am conscious.

By the way, do you remember the discussion which made god disappear in a puff of logic?

[Tom]

if you can prove to yourself that you exist, then tell me what that is and I can prove to myslef I exist...ye? I dont really get what that means,
I think therefore I am.
conscience can only prove me that i think...but how do I know I exist if I am unsure what it is to exist if the only way you know is if you expreiance it, and if this isn't reality I am not existing (physically) then i will not know if i exist or not...do you get what im saying Holy?

[Holy]

if you can prove to yourself that you exist, then tell me what that is and I can prove to myself I exist...ye?

This is just my own personal opinion. I can not prove to you or to myself anything physical, the only thing I can prove is that I am conscious and that I can only prove to myself.

conscience can only prove me that I think...but how do I know I exist if I am unsure what it is to exist if the only way you know is if you experience it, and if this isn't reality I am not existing (physically) then I will not know if I exist or not...do you get what I'm saying Holy?

This one I had to read a couple of times, the words just wont come together to one sentence, but at last I got it :) .

You are unsure because you don't know what it is to exist. Well neither do I, it is just my opinion that I exist, based solely on the experience of thought. By believing I exist (at least as a consciousness) I must exist in my own world, and if this world has been created by someone else and I am just an artificial intelligence (no /777 in that case), then I still exist in my own world until I get unplugged.

Wow now I'm getting all weird in my head. This is a nice query to spend time thinking on, but right now Ill leave it at that.

Please continue to screw with my head some more if you want.

(Again: Do you remember the discussion with god in the HGtG which made god disappear in a puff of logic?)

[Neb]

Okay, I'm getting a little lost in your explanations but I got the gist and I find it an interesting question.
The only proof I could think of for excitence is that everything I do has a reaction positive or negative,so for every consious decision my physical matter reacts and affects someone or something either physically or mentally.
So therefore I think that I excist, the only thing would be if we as a whole, as in the universe itself didn't excist then maybe we don't excist, but that is a question I can't answer and I don't know anyone who can.
We could all be very real or just someones imagination.
Is that voice in our head our conscience or is it someone elses voice controlling our thoughts and actions?
Sorry if I made no sense there or just confused the hell out of everyone.:p

[Bebelina]

I think that a reasonable truth is that we actually DO exist, since we can form a question about the validity of existing. :p
If we didn´t exist, who/what would ask that?
What are you if you are not?
But if you mean like is the character in the film real or is it just an actor?
Then it´s both. The actor has created the character by acting it, but then it gets a life of its own, in the film and in the minds of all the people that sees it, which increases its self-awareness.
So our souls are like the actors and we are the characters. :p

[Bebelina]

Can anybody tell? :D

[Twilight]

All of reality as I know it can be a made up world from my own existence, meaning I am imagining all of the world and I am the only consciousness that exist.

Holy, I read some things about this matter, so I happen to know that there were persons wondering about other's existence long before we were born. Some of them even believed that they were the only conscious mind in the universe and all the others were just a projection of their minds. Those people were called solipsists. Among them you will find Pithagora, Descartes and many others.

Of course, that thing is considered foolish these days, but at that time it was a debated topic.

[Holy]

Thank you for the points. I have also read about those debates (or so my consciousness would have me believe). I think one would get laughed at if discussing this in the streets (or so my consciousness would have me believe). Is it really foolish or is it my own mind making that up to prevent my brain from exploding while figuring this out?

[Rush]

This sort of philosophical question used to entertain me. Then I grew bored of the whole "Table" question.
You know the Table question? A group of ppl are standing around talking philosophy when some smartass points at the table and demands that ppl prove it exists.
These days my reaction is more likely to want to smack their head into that table until they agreed that yes it does actually exist. There are philosophies that are so abstract as to provide no insights whatsoever. I guess I'm probably in the minority here, but I think there are more practical uses for philosophy.
My personal philosophy is that you can worry about whether the table actually exists, I'll look to more practical things and get on with life trusting my senses. What else can you do? What would change if you thought the table didn't exist? Would you refuse to use them? Would you just walk straight into them? If you honestly believe this, then pain doesn't exist either. So whack yourself over the head - the entertainment I'll get from this will be very real.
If you think other ppl don't exist either, then you are well on the path to becomming what is generally termed "homicidal" As figments of your imagination, they are there to do with as you please. Lets see how far that gets you.
The philosophy that there are as many different truths as there are perceptions also rings false and useless to me.
There is one truth, and many perceptions of it. If you are still cuaght up on the table thing, then you are missing the real truth.

[Neb]

Well said rush, it does seem a pointless question when you put it like that.
I think putting someones head through the table would be a great way to prove its exsitence.:D

[jef]

We may exist or we may not but who really cares because it is very real to me. I think it is possible that we are really somewhere else and that we just think that we are living life as we know it. It all seems very real to me.

[Neb]

Bebelina, I just re-read your post before the what is nothing, your line
"Our souls are the actors and we are the characters"
very good ideology,provokes quite an interesting train of thought for me and I thankyou for this.:)

[Twilight]

Those questions have a value after all. It might not be immediate, but think how all these small things connect in our mind to form a conclusion, a way of thinking.
Each of those questions is not important by itself but within a context, and if we refuse to give them an answer (it doesn't matter if that answer is true or false) we cannot form an opinion about the outer world.
Of course the table is real. But you cannot force all the others to share your opinions.:D

[SeekerOfTruth]

First, what is the accepted definition of "exist"?

The definition of "exist" from webster's dictionary is

To be as a fact and not as a mode; to have an actual or real being, whether material or spiritual.

Is this acceptable and what does it imply?

If you accept the definition given above, then the concept "I think, therefore I am" is enough to define your own existence, but not necessarily others existence. What I mean is that by thinking you have automatically defined your own existence, but how can you possibly prove others exist? They could just be extrapolations of your own mind. What I would call splinters of your mind's eye.

For instance, how can you prove that reality exists outside your own sphere of perceptions? How can you prove that someone you just talked to continues to exist after your interactions?

Where am I going with this....I don't honestly know, just some thoughts I have had on existence.:p

[Rush]

You can't prove it. Why? Because to be a proof, it has to be accepted as proof. If you doubt that the table exists or that you talked to a person this afternoon or anything at all for that matter, then you might doubt that proof in itself exists. How can you prove that you just proved anything? Or prove that you proved that you had proof? Nasty little viscous circle, huh.

So given that there can be no proof, I'd say that the only practical philosophy to adopt is to act as though the table does exist, that the person you talked to was real and that the evidence of our sense is pretty reliable.

OK, maybe its a little harsh to say that there is no value in these sorts of thoughts - zen koans have a point, right? But I do believe that the conclusion anyone will have to reach after applying reason to this question is "I can't prove the table exists, yet I will continue to act as if the table exists as anyother option is irrational"

There is also a danger in accepting this lack of reality - how can you prove that the person pointing a gun at you is real?

[SeekerOfTruth]

By acting in such a way as to cause him to pull the trigger :D

[Ana]

I think we are all in someone's imagination. This person is a sicko....he/she picks and chooses what we think and what kind of life we live....he/she hears "voices" and they are "our" voices....except he doesn't give us what we ask him/her to do for us. But then, I can't prove this person exists either...so maybe I'm just imagining this person and I really exist because I'm imagining that I'm imagining that I'm just in someone else's imagination. Where's the gun? Where's the gun??? I CAN'T take it aNYmoRE! There they are....those men....why are they following me??? No! NOOOOooooo! Not the white jacket again! It's past Labor Day....don't you have any sense of FASHION??? I'm NOT crazy! "You're just in my imagination You are just in my imagination...you are just in my...."

Er, ehem! 'xcuse me....temporary neuronal misfiring.

What was the question again?

Oh, okay. Em, let's see..."I think therefore I am...." Well, so then 3/4 of the world's population doesn't exist because they don't really think do they? Hehehe.

If you are carrying on cell division....or are composed of atoms....you exist. Okay, maybe not.

THE REAL QUESTION IS: PROVE THAT YOU DON'T EXIST!

:confused:

[fatty]

I agree with seeker, it is all in the perception. we cannot prove something that is outside of our 'experience' as being 'real' or to be true in an absolute sense. We can say that there is a table as long as we agree with what we constitute what a table is. (well, I think it is a chair without a back! so there is no table!!)

Say when someone tells you a story about a friend of his called Jim. Does Jim exist? Did he exist before you knew about him? What if your friend is lying but you do not know and never find out? You believe in the existence of Jim but it is actually a lie, so does he exist?

I'm not sure where this is going but can someone please help with the fushsia striped dog that is annoying my cat? Well at least I think he is a dog............


As for Ana, it's a bit too late.

quote:

THE REAL QUESTION IS: PROVE THAT YOU DON'T EXIST!



I've already posted.
:p

[Bobby Lee]

Wrong thread................:rolleyes:


bjl

[wet1]

T. b. or not t.b.
That is the conception...
Can consumption be done about it?
Well, of cough, of cough....

[Dr Lou Natic]

I maintain that the universe and everything in it exists with or without humans thinking about it.
And the fucking tree made a sound you delusional assholes.

[confusedmaranda]

The question of existence has been bothering me lately. I think why love something or enjoy something that isnt even real. But then i think it has to exist or why would we see it? It cant be all an illusion because people that actually do see illusions are called "crazy" and are put on medicines. These thoughts can drive us crazy if we dont beleive we are real or that other people are real we do crazy things like kill but we are punished for those things so people must exist. But as for the universe Im not sure. Apparently we exist because we think we see ourselves we eat we sleep we have feelings we feel love we get upset and the fact that these questions bother us means somthing. People that think like this are classified as philosiphers meaning they are different. normal people dont think like this. I never thought like this till I went through depression and other things. So my answer is yea it does all exist but our minds are too small to understand why and how. I beleive there is God. I dont know how he got here...no one does. But think about it there has to be a higher power that created us because we are so complex and the universe definately is too. As for someone being in our minds controllin us...no. We have a mind for a reason its proven that we have a mind scientist figured that our with their minds. The litte voice we hear is our consciouncess basically just us talking to ourselves to figure things out. Only things that could possibly control our thoughts is higher powers. but we can choose what spirits we allow in our lives.

[invisibleone]

We don't exist. The probability of earth achieving it's position and distance from the sun to create and sustain life is astronomically small. Somehow we miraculously appear out of nowhere and return to nowhere. It's like we were never really here in the first place. It's all an illusion. We are the universe's idea of entertainment. Then again. . . we do exist, because we are here right now. But it'll all be washed away again. . . doomed to repeat itself?

[CHRISCUNNINGHAM]

And the fucking tree made a sound you delusional assholes.

A "sound" is something that can only be preceived by an ear. aside from that, it is nothing more than a simple wave function.

[moementum7]

You guys are idiots.But don't worry,cause I don't exist and neither do you.
Who are you responding to?
Poor misdirected youth.
What if you did exist?
Scary huh.
Thats a lot of responsibility.
Cant have that now can we.
Lie to yourself.
Not to me.
Thanks.
Bye
Sincerely yours......nothing.

P.S. "I exist. Iwant to live. And I am proud of that fact."

Say that out loud. That's your home work kids.

[invisibleone]

moe, thank you for explaining it all to us! you have solved all the mysteries of the universe for us, questions that human beings have been asking for thousands of years!! you are the only true brilliant one! thank you enlightening all of us. :rolleyes:

[moementum7]

Sorry if I came across a bit rude on this thread.
My apologies.
I just get a little frustrated sometimes when I see people, especialy the younger generation begin on a path of self negation. And your self is a part of the whole existence equation.

And for the guy that started this thread, I am sorry.
I went through this whole transition myself.
And I had a lot of great experiences,which is ultimately a part of who I am today.

There will come a day however, when your self esteem will come to a crisis.You will become distant and removed from anybody who does beleive in themselves.

You will wonder why your life lacks purpose.
You do not want to end up at the end of the path you are on.
Denial of existence will crush you.
You can not escape reality.
Existence exists.
There is one fact and one choice.
You are alive.
Your choice...to continue to live.

Begin to look for thinkers that beleive in human kind and its potential.
Life affirming philosophies.

The greatest question is also the most simple.
And you have asked it.
Now it is up to you whether you continue in the denial of your own life, or begin to seek for that which is great within you.
It is there.
Any who can ask this question with great earnest has the capability for great things.It is people like you that have shaped the world.
I would consider this a turning point for you.
Affirm your life, do not listen to those who negate it.
There is truth.
And you will find it.
Enjoy the journey, what ever path you decide to take.
Peace Out

P.S. One source of experience that I beleive will help you to structure your own philosophy is www.aynrand.org
Look for the free online lectures.

There is a 5 hour audio session,so you just get to sit back and relax.How great is that.It is divided up into 2-2 hours and 1 -1 hour sessions.Also there is a one hour video session as well.

I am not saying that this will be the end all and be all to your questions, but is definitely a strong foundation for approaching the path you are on.
I f you enjoy philosophy do not pass this up.
Enjoy.
I know you will.:)

[ele]

In answer to initial challenge.

I know i exist
Do you know you exist? (yes)
Therefore we exist.

[madanthonywayne]

I maintain that the universe and everything in it exists with or without humans thinking about it.
And the fucking tree made a sound you delusional assholes.
Before anyone bitches about thread necromacy, I don't know how I ended up in this thread.. I was voting in a poll in the "secret moderator's forum" and when I hit submit, I ended up here in this thread from 2001. As to the thread topic, I'm with Dr. Lou.

[mike47]

do we exist...prove it!

my theory,
anything we can image exists!
I exist : I see, I eat, I walk, I type, I think.....etc.

[thinking]

do we exist...prove it!

can you go without air or water ? no

can you go without food ? no

therefore you exist

my theory,
anything we can image exists!

in the imagination only

could you bring down the CN Tower in Toronto with a baseball bat ? in reality?

[Dywyddyr]

can you go without air or water ? no
Rocks can.

can you go without food ? no
Rocks can.

therefore you exist
Therefore rocks don't exist.

[Enmos]

As to the thread topic, I'm with Dr. Lou.

As am I.

[Crunchy Cat]

do we exist...prove it!

Produce an instance of yourself. There's the proof.


my theory,
anything we can image exists!

Jump into 1500 degree fire naked. Then imagine not getting burned. If you're right then you have nothing to worry about.

[swarm]

I exist because I can declare myself existent by fiat.
You exist because I can declare you existent by fiat and to object to must first exist.

:p

[thesarafurter]

The only proof of my own existence I have is my own experiences and thoughts, and even that isn't concrete evidence. There is no undeniable truth; everything we can think or believe has infinite other beliefs that could simultaneously be held by others. It is a possibility that my own reality is all that there is, that nothing else exists in the same manner in which I do. Perhaps this is all much like a dream in that the only thing that is real is what I am thinking, feeling...I accept that as a possibility, but all the same, I'm inclined to believe that others may exist as well.

[Doreen]

Something seems to exist.
But good luck proving a sentence with a subject and a predicate - for example...

'I exist'

Our grammar makes this seem obvious. We think like we grammar. And then we convince outselves using sentences made out of our grammar. A grammar that is based on assumptions.

Is there an 'I'? (is it one thing or many? is it the same 'thing' as a few minutes ago or not? is it a separate thing or not?)

Certain working assumptions are productive. They may not be the only ones that would be. And in any case we shouldn't confuse them with logical certainties.

[PsychoticEpisode]

anything we can image exists!

Did Tom mean anything we can imagine? If so then how did we imagine everything without prior knowledge of anything. Surely there's got to be more than imagination at work here if what he says is true.

[Doreen]

Jump into 1500 degree fire naked. Then imagine not getting burned. If you're right then you have nothing to worry about.This doesn't really prove anything. Our beliefs run much deeper than that. Try to change one of your beliefs by an act of will.

[Doreen]

Before anyone bitches about thread necromacy, I don't know how I ended up in this thread.. I was voting in a poll in the "secret moderator's forum" and when I hit submit, I ended up here in this thread from 2001. As to the thread topic, I'm with Dr. Lou.Your arrival here should call into question much of your existence. For example

when are you?

Perhaps you should only talk about yourself in the past tense.

i existed.

[PsychoticEpisode]

This doesn't really prove anything. Our beliefs run much deeper than that. Try to change one of your beliefs by an act of will.

Unfortunately it does but you don't want to know what.

Jeezuz this threads an old one. Guess i should of checked the expiry date.

[Doreen]

Unfortunately it does but you don't want to know what.
This sounded ominous. I suppose there are things I don't want to know.

[PsychoticEpisode]

This sounded ominous. I suppose there are things I don't want to know.

The only part of Tom's theory I like is where Tom would have to imagine God. Then he would have to imagine his imaginary friends imagining God. :D

[swarm]

The only proof of my own existence I have...

Oh you definitely don't exist. You are nothing but the vapors of a bit of indigestion.

[swarm]

Try to change one of your beliefs by an act of will.

OK, just did.

[thinking]

kind of ironic to ask whether we exist or not and then ask questions about whether we do ?

I mean can the opposite of existence > non-existence ask A question :confused:

[Doreen]

OK, just did.Apropos our other discussion: if you are correct that you have done this, will you be able to provide evidence?

But you were probably just being 'funny'.

[thinking]

I reiterate again

kind of ironic to ask whether we exist or not and then ask questions about whether we do exist ?

I mean can the opposite of existence > non-existence ask A question ?

well....?

[swarm]

Apropos our other discussion: if you are correct that you have done this, will you be able to provide evidence?

In this particular case it would be necessary to establish the belief in question first. Since that wasn't done that particular change is lost to history.

But people change their beliefs all the time for all kind sof reasons.

One which could be proved with some effort would be to go to my family and establish that as a kid I hated onions. Then track down my ex who asked me to reconsider that and verify that I did and subsequently decided that I like onions.

Beliefs are just mental constructs. Then can be effected by will.

[Cyperium]

do we exist...prove it!

my theory,
anything we can image exists!Well, if everything else than me exists only in my imagination then;

1) I have good imagination.
2) My imagination exists.
3) As I don't consciously create the world around me, then by all means I conclude that it exists in and of itself. Also it has the same right to exist as I have. Everything is in existence after all, even my imagination.

So, yes, we exist. If we exist only subjectively in my imagination or if you exist objectively (as I believe you do) is harder to prove though.

The REALLY spooky weird thing is this: When we dream there are other people around too and it does seem like they exist too in their own rights, even when they speak they seem to do this without any effort from me.

One time I had a dream where I talked to my father, and I asked him; "Is this a dream?", and he answered; "yes it is."

[Rav]

I can assure all of you that I do indeed exist independently of the subjective experience of reading this post and I'll be very offended if any of you try to suggest otherwise. Such audacity!