How is God infinite? [Archive]

Roman

11-14-04, 04:35 PM

John Connellan

11-15-04, 03:50 AM

Does God encompass all rational numbers, and if so, is there a mathematical proof for this?

Yes, that is what is meant by God being infinite. God is "supposed" to be infinite in space and time. His power is thought to be infinite (i.e. omnipotent).

alain

11-15-04, 06:26 AM

if he was infinately big, he would have to have an infinitisimilly low density, or gravity would screw up

omnipotence is a logical contradiction (ie, if he was omnipotent, he could create a being more powerful then him, but still be able to do anything (even somethign the more powerful being didnt want)

TruthSeeker

11-15-04, 04:42 PM

if he was infinately big, he would have to be infinitisimilly small, or gravity would screw up
Is God subject to His own creation?
I wouldn't say so....

omnipotence is a logical contradiction (ie, if he was omnipotent, he could create a being more powerful then him, but still be able to do anything (even somethign the more powerful being didnt want)
If He is omnipotent, that implies that He has the greatest possible amount of power. The fact that He cannot create a more powerful being from His omnipotence is not a contradiction, but rather a paradox.

pixel

11-15-04, 04:46 PM

Look, he'd have to exist outside of our concept of spacetime and so I say don't bother with trying to grasp the idea of infinite existence. This is precisely the kind of thing that turned my brain to mush.

Roman

11-15-04, 09:39 PM

But describing him as infinite seems to be mislabeling. To say that I haven't a concpet of infinity isn't true, because a concept of infinity is required to do the calculus.

Yes, that is what is meant by God being infinite. God is "supposed" to be infinite in space and time. His power is thought to be infinite (i.e. omnipotent).

That was all useless tautology. You said the same thing in different words, without actually defining anything. A sideways eight does not imply God.
However, [e ^( pi•i)]+1=0, might imply a God.

alain

11-16-04, 05:19 AM

"If He is omnipotent, that implies that He has the greatest possible amount of power."
then im not arguing with you, but there are plenty of people out there that believe God is infinitely powerful

"This is precisely the kind of thing that turned my brain to mush."
i hear you, Tv destroyed mine long ago

TruthSeeker

11-16-04, 01:21 PM

But describing him as infinite seems to be mislabeling. To say that I haven't a concpet of infinity isn't true, because a concept of infinity is required to do the calculus.
No, it is not. Calculus adapt infinity into a number. It attempts to "solve" Zeno's paradox by rounding numbers. For example, instead of 2.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999, we have just 3. The two numbers aren't the same, but they are very cloe to each other. Calculus only rounds the numbers. Of course it i a damn good rounding because the difference beteen the numbers are so small. that' why it eems that calculus works with infinity, but it just adapts it to regular rational math.

That was all useless tautology. You said the same thing in different words, without actually defining anything. A sideways eight does not imply God.
Have you read my post (not his)?

However, [e ^( pi•i)]+1=0, might imply a God.
Mayyou explain the equation? ;)

TruthSeeker

11-16-04, 01:23 PM

"If He is omnipotent, that implies that He has the greatest possible amount of power."
then im not arguing with you, but there are plenty of people out there that believe God is infinitely powerful
Doesn't infinitely powerful implies that it is the greatest possible amout of power?

David F.

11-16-04, 01:34 PM

Before discussing God and infinite, wouldn't it be more productive to establish whether or not He truely is? Don't we need a scripture which says He is infinite? Like:
Ps 147:5
Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite
This says His "understanding" is infinite. Is there some other scripture which says God himself is infinite (or whatever you guys are saying He is)? In this case Infinite (http://bible1.crosswalk.com/Lexicons/Hebrew/heb.cgi?number=07097&version=kjv) means whole or everything.

TruthSeeker

11-16-04, 02:47 PM

I don't know any, David. But if He is omniscient and omnipotent, He is likely also omnipresent. Do you know any scripture that tells us that He is omnipresent?

David F.

11-16-04, 03:40 PM

No, nor do I know of any scripture which says God is Omniscient or Omnipotent.

TruthSeeker

11-16-04, 04:13 PM

You just showed one that says He is omniscient....

Cris

11-16-04, 04:48 PM

Instead of thinking of infinity as a number or a quantity we should instead think of it as meaning "without a boundary" then the concept makes more sense.

Instead of saying that a god has the greatest amount of power, which implies a finite quantity, we should say that this god has unlimited power.

And instead of saying this god has existed for infinity we should simply state that he had no beginning.

As soon as you attempt to consider infinity as a numerical quantity you hit meaningless paradoxes.

TruthSeeker

11-16-04, 05:04 PM

I've already said that...

Still, there are paradoxes which are meaningful. But actually finding and understanding those paradoxes is tricky.

Also:
And instead of saying this god has existed for infinity we should simply state that he had no beginning.
The concept of no beginning brings a paradox....
Do you see it?

David F.

11-16-04, 05:20 PM

You just showed one that says He is omniscient....
OK, I'll accept that definition of Omniscient - He knows all (I've had this argument before - if He knows all, might He also be able to create new things and so have His knowledge increase?)

TruthSeeker

11-16-04, 07:31 PM

OK, I'll accept that definition of Omniscient - He knows all (I've had this argument before - if He knows all, might He also be able to create new things and so have His knowledge increase?)
You are mistaking causation and effect. The fact that He knows all is the reason why He can create all things. He can create all things bacause He knows all. In other words, His knowledge doesn't increase because the His ability to create necessarily depends on the knowledge that He has.

For example, can you "create" a computer without knowing how to create a computer? No, right? So wouldn't it be a mistake to assume that by creating a computer you would learn how to create it? What comes first, the knowledge or the creation. That's the point you missed. ;)

Onefinity

03-19-05, 01:50 AM

I like the view of German philosopher/theologian Fichte. For him, God is infinite in that God is Whole. To be undivided is to be infinite.

duendy

03-19-05, 06:55 AM

= Goddess

Lord_Phoenix

03-19-05, 08:58 AM

The idea of god, is completely a contradiction to our modern theories of spacetime and gravity.

TruthSeeker

03-19-05, 04:26 PM

How?

Onefinity

08-12-05, 01:18 AM

I hear a lot about God's (supposed) infiniteness on these forums, and am unsure as to what exactly this means.
Does God encompass all rational numbers, and if so, is there a mathematical proof for this?
I doubt that this definition of infinite is correct. Perhaps you could inform me what it means.

You can look at infinity two ways. One, the typical way, i.e., an endless series, or - the way I prefer - as simply "1." Wholeness. Wholeness without division has no end, and is thus non-finite, thus in-finite.

Anyway, remember that infinity, just like zero, is not a number, but a mathematical construct used as a placeholder for our thoughts.

beyondtimeandspace

08-12-05, 02:03 AM

Aristotle spoke about two main divisions of infinity: actual infinity and potential infinity. Actual infinities represent complete sets, while potential infinities represent incomplete sets ceaselessly moving toward being a complete set, but never actually becoming a complete set. I believe these two divisions represent the two that Onefinity speaks of. It is speculated that the universe is infinite, but no one ever says what kind of infinite it is, actual or potential. God would be an actual infinite, a complete set, and anything finite may actually simply be a potential infinite.

wesmorris

08-12-05, 02:16 AM

If He is omnipotent, that implies that He has the greatest possible amount of power. The fact that He cannot create a more powerful being from His omnipotence is not a contradiction, but rather a paradox.

Does not 'god' determine what is possible?

It couldnt' create a more powerful being than infinite could it?

Either it could, or it is not omnipotent.

wesmorris

08-12-05, 02:22 AM

Omniscient - I John 3:20 - God...knoweth all things.

Omnipotent - Luke 1:37 - With God all things are possible.

Omnipresent - Psalm 139:7 - Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

Goddamn I hate bible quotes. They're so freakin pretenscious and generally feigned otherwise.

I just have no desire to relate, as quoting a book on "god" (one of thousands of deities) about "god" when there is not a smidge of neccessary correlation between "god" and this silly book... well it's just silly to me. I don't mean to be insulting, but my criteria for reasoning simply precludes this line of thinking as faulty.

Clockwood

08-12-05, 02:35 AM

Sometimes I am tempted to flip out the gnostic texts just to screw with people here. I advise that you try it out some time.

wesmorris

08-12-05, 09:05 AM

Look at the quote by David F. that I was replying to and you will see that it would have been hard for me not to use scripture and show the places where each concept was represented. I am not sorry that you are offended by the words in the bible but if I have to quote from it again I will post a warning for you.

Kind of you, but no need to bother. Being annoyed at certain things is part of life. It's nothing personal against you.

jayleew

08-12-05, 12:16 PM

wesmorris

08-12-05, 01:28 PM

You seem to be pretty cool.

I just think it's an important part of any philosophy to care more about people than the tenets of the philosophy.

raherakthy

08-12-05, 10:51 PM

o yea god is infinite
it jest means dat dere are tons of gods around
it means dat you can picture god whichever way you want to
in short you are god
everybody is god
life is finite anyway you look upon it
but its perceptions are infinite
and dont worry math has a lot to do with it
by da way try reading "the alchemist"

§outh§tar

08-13-05, 12:12 AM

Omniscient - I John 3:20 - God...knoweth all things.

Omnipotent - Luke 1:37 - With God all things are possible.

Omnipresent - Psalm 139:7 - Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence?

The quote for omnipresence doesn't work. The speaker is posing rhetorical questions in order to convey his feeling that God's presence was pervasive in his life. He was certainly not speaking matter-of-factly (ie. "God is everywhere in the universe").

Not like it matters. But even for a theist to take a verse out of context this much irritates me.

raherakthy

08-13-05, 10:32 AM

azizbey

08-17-05, 10:33 AM

God's being infinite means he is above time and space. the problem is our mind and logic is trapped in this 3 +1 dimension which is again created by God.
imagine how many dimensions there are and which each one logic,knowledge and answers change. so do not depend on your mind to find an answer for this
assume you are looking at a playing card thru its side. (1 dimension)
you need height and width, 2 more dimension and time to see the big picture.
and who told you God's existence is only limited to this universe and its physical/mathematical rules?
our limited logic and knowledge are not enough to understand these
so go with the flow
you may find some answers in afterlife

wesmorris

08-17-05, 10:39 AM

A little off topic entertainment inspired by the last post:

___________________________________
Hell - Squirrel Nut Zippers

In the afterlife
You could be headed for the serious strife
Now you make the scene all day
But tomorrow there’ll be hell to pay

People listen attentively
I mean about future calamity
I used to think the idea was obsolete
Until I heard the old man stamping his feet.

This is a place where eternally
Fire is applied to the body
Teeth are extruded and bones are ground
Then baked into cakes which are passed around.

Beauty, talent, fame, money, refinement
Top skill and brain
But all the things you try to hide
Will be revealed on the other side.

Now the d and the a and the m
And the n and the a
And the t and the i-o-n
Lose your face, lose your name
Then get fitted for a suit of flame
__________________________________

Indeed the square who speaks of the cube is speaking of that which he cannot relate.

TruthSeeker

08-17-05, 11:04 AM

No, the square is actually a cube, but it cannot relate to it because it cannot see itself from an objective point of view. We ARE composed of four dimensions, but nobody can perceive it, nobody can relate to it...

wesmorris

08-17-05, 11:35 AM

No, the square is actually a cube, but it cannot relate to it because it cannot see itself from an objective point of view.

My analogy above was from flatland. In flatland, the square is but a square. One such square (maybe it was a circle) had a short experience into which he experienced what is was like to be a cube.

We ARE composed of four dimensions, but nobody can perceive it, nobody can relate to it...

You should know that since I've been here I've been harping on about the abstract dimension, meaning and consciousness.

And you're wrong that nobody can perceive it. It's just that most people can't, nor have they really contemplated it.

Meaning is the result of separating from the tao. There is no place for meaning in space-time. To space-time, meaning is exactly meaning-less. But meaning is real, or there would not be words to represent it. Thus, there is a degree of freedom in which meaning exists. I call it "the abstract" or "the internal dimension". I hypothesize that in Hawking's depictions of "imaginary time", this is where abstract space exists.

§outh§tar

08-17-05, 12:01 PM

"Where shall I flee from your presence?" -- I guess you can decide what that means and tell everyone exactly what it is. It is anything but what it says, huh?

God is not bound by space or time.

Sorry but a question is not the same as a statement so you are still wrong.

Chatha

08-17-05, 01:33 PM

God's being infinite means he is above time and space. the problem is our mind and logic is trapped in this 3 +1 dimension which is again created by God.

I am not sure how you came to an accord with this because space is infinite and thus time. Anyway there may be a God but if there is he or she should be worring about the same thing we are worring about; why are we here? That is if he or she has any ounce of intelligence. If he or she is not then it gives me no reason to. I believe in a higher power only because I don't want to be alone in the universe, not necessarily the christian or muslin God, and definitely not because of the bible. On infinity. Infinity are ratios approaching infinitely near and other same ratios drifting farther apart, e.g number line. All infinite have a perfectly finite subset, just depends on how you look at it, hence potential infinite is a fleeing moment from actual infinite. Everything is an approximation, even the number 1, as authoritative as it looks it is between 0.9 and 1.1, and lets not even mention that quantum mechs proposes that there is no reality and what you see is what you get.

P.S I WOULD REALY LIKE TO KNOW HOW DO YOU CREAT SPACE, WOULDN'T GOD HAVE TO BE IN SOME KIND OF SPACE TO DO THAT. AHA...SO GOD CANNOT BE MORE THAN 4 DIMENSIONAL, AT LEAST HE IS INSIDE SPACE

superluminal

08-17-05, 01:59 PM

dalahar:

God is not bound by space or time

Then how can you or anyone make any consistent statements about god or what he does or what he intends? Every effect ever credited to god has been shown to be a natural occurrance or a figment of psychology, such as prayer. Totally uncorrelated with what actually happens - randomness.

God is a figment of your imagination. A powerful, comfy, figment.

TruthSeeker

08-17-05, 03:09 PM

My analogy above was from flatland. In flatland, the square is but a square. One such square (maybe it was a circle) had a short experience into which he experienced what is was like to be a cube.
Are you on something? :D
Anyways... I understand what you are saying...
But those experiences are momentary experiences. They don't last long. The square cannot perceive itself as a cube for a very long time...

You should know that since I've been here I've been harping on about the abstract dimension, meaning and consciousness.

And you're wrong that nobody can perceive it. It's just that most people can't, nor have they really contemplated it.
I said you cannot perceive it subjectively. You need to be in a very objective position, which is quite a feat...

Meaning is the result of separating from the tao.
Yes.

There is no place for meaning in space-time. To space-time, meaning is exactly meaning-less. But meaning is real, or there would not be words to represent it. Thus, there is a degree of freedom in which meaning exists. I call it "the abstract" or "the internal dimension". I hypothesize that in Hawking's depictions of "imaginary time", this is where abstract space exists.
Huh... I dunno. That's confusing.... :bugeye: :confused:
I need to ponder about that....

TruthSeeker

08-17-05, 03:14 PM

I am not sure how you came to an accord with this because space is infinite and thus time.
Proof?
If space is infinite, then energy is also infinite, because it is equally spread throughout the universe (take a look at the background radiation)...

Anyway there may be a God but if there is he or she should be worring about the same thing we are worring about; why are we here? That is if he or she has any ounce of intelligence. If he or she is not then it gives me no reason to. I believe in a higher power only because I don't want to be alone in the universe, not necessarily the christian or muslin God, and definitely not because of the bible. On infinity. Infinity are ratios approaching infinitely near and other same ratios drifting farther apart, e.g number line. All infinite have a perfectly finite subset, just depends on how you look at it, hence potential infinite is a fleeing moment from actual infinite. Everything is an approximation, even the number 1, as authoritative as it looks it is between 0.9 and 1.1, and lets not even mention that quantum mechs proposes that there is no reality and what you see is what you get.
Yes, indeed...
Ever watched "What the bleep do we know"?

P.S I WOULD REALY LIKE TO KNOW HOW DO YOU CREAT SPACE, WOULDN'T GOD HAVE TO BE IN SOME KIND OF SPACE TO DO THAT. AHA...SO GOD CANNOT BE MORE THAN 4 DIMENSIONAL, AT LEAST HE IS INSIDE SPACE
God is in the abscence of space, something beyond space...

enton

08-17-05, 10:05 PM

azizbey

08-18-05, 06:33 AM

some people confuse that BB happened at some point in infinite space.
the truth is, BB not only created matter and energy but also empty space.
in othjer words, BB happended in "nothingness"
as I said, our minds trapped in 4 dimention and cannot perceive nothingness
nothingness is not vacumm space as many of you mistaken
and God is above all , whether you can perceive or not

azizbey

08-18-05, 06:39 AM

Yes, that is what is meant by God being infinite. God is "supposed" to be infinite in space and time. His power is thought to be infinite (i.e. omnipotent).
dear John
you are mistaken when trying to comprehen the existence of God
God is not only the supreme being that created universe with BB
assume universe ended with big crunch ( there is an end for everything except God)
God is the creator of many dimansions, or universes (so to speak) with different scientific rules
so our physcical and mathematical rules arfe not absolete, only valid in this universe
so in His eternal presence, how can you prove God's existence with our rules?
youi just cant
but be comfortoble, you will get answers in after life
best regards