1. If space time is curved and is also constant wont we end up at the point of origin? 2. If time moves slower the nearer to centre of gravity you are ( a nuclear clock will run slower on earth than it will orbiting earth), then wouldnt the speed of the Universe expanding appear to increase the further we moved away from the centre of the universe?
I'm going to try and answer those questions, of course I can't say that I'm going to be correct but this is what I conclude. Space-time is only curved due to high levels of gravity, namely it curves towards a blackhole or a body like the sun. Of course what we percieve as time is a constant, but it doesn't join back to the beginning in any conventional means. even the use of systems to create parallels have proven that there is only a set time period where other points in time are percievable other than watching the light of some distant star. The only reason for a Nuclear clock running differently, is because even atoms have poles. In space the only polar fields are of that from planetry bodies, so it's possible to move to a location where no gravity is going to effect you. This means that the electrons of the clock can move without suffering from actions inccurred by our gravity. As for the speed of the universes expansion increasing that's entirely dependant, If the universe doesn't expand in straight lines from the centre, it's possible that the universe might be spiralling, this means although we move out a distance, space actually distorts around the centre to make it look as if our expansion is very slight. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! This image just points the directions that most people thing the universe expanded in (I've missed the Z axis but it doesn't matter as it was just to show people expect a Straight path.) Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! In this image I'm showing how I think the centre truly works, it rotated, and the mass that emminates from it's centre spins around the centre. IYou'll have to decide if you think the centre spins or the exansion material happens to be moving around the centre. This makes more sense when you come to my next image. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! I've shown a singular Arch (B) coming from the centre of a hypothetical universe, the arch represents the direction a solar body has travelled, Although it might be percieved as Straight with position (A), when you look at the lines at the bottom of this image they are just to show how much distance has actually been travelled. The Arch body took route B the longer path. This means although the univese might seem to have expanded such a distance, it is infact far closer to the centre than what would have been expected if there was no spin. (Feel free to prove this hunch wrong)
When we make measurements of the expansion of the universe variables like the effects of our gravity field are taken into account. Especially in the area of testing results.
A more accurate way of saying this is that space-time is curved around any massive object (everything). It curves more around a more massive object. The curves of space-time is equal to gravity, the more it curves, the harder for matter to get out of the curvature, thus stronger gravity. So, instead of saying the Earth obit around the sun due to gravity, it can also be said the Earth is moving thorugh space in the shortest distance possible, thus going around in an almost circular way. Therefore, we are all moving though space, but because it's curved, we will end up back to where we started.
The first part of this quote is correct, the second part, re centre of universe, is not. The redshift observed in distant quasars shows that they are moving away from us at increasing rates as distance increases. For example a quasar twice the distance from us will appear to be moving away with twice the velocity as one that is only half the distance away. There is no centre to the universe. If I was to travel to one of these distant quasars I would see the same effect as I would if I stayed on Earth.
Boris2 ... Your reply to Arise62's question reminded me of my High School physics instructor's explanation (analogy?): Imagine a speckled balloon being slowly inflated; whichever speckle you chose as your point of reference, all other speckles are moving away from that speckle and the further away they are, the faster they move from your point of reference. Simplistic, but for me it's still the only way I can imagine it a whole lot of years later.
In Space time does not exist. Time is invented by humans. Time is very relative because the next second is now already past time... So what about a Light year? Who came with the idea of presenting a Light year? Ridiculous. If you are in Space and you look at your watch, you really believe that works? All invented and dictated by humans, because they are afraid they lose control...Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! For instance, two persons are waiting for a train. One is eager to get home and the time seems not to pass. The other one has to go to a place he/she doesn't like at all and for that person the time flies..You see, time is relativePlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Banshee ... I remember a different analogy: If you're on the porch swing with your girl, hours seem like minutes; If you're sitting on a hot stove, minutes seem like hours! But then, I'm from another generation (or two). Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Oh, what do you care about a difference in generations? Not important, just the way you are is important and age is just as relative as time... It is just the way you behave. If you want to behave like you are old(?) and on the way to your last breath, well, turn it around and think I am as good as anybody else, whatever their age may be and talk just as you are. You'll see, age falls away, it doesn't matter how old you are, it matters how old you feel.Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! And then again, you can have a lot of knowledge to share with other humans, that is great isn't it? Just live your life, everybody can pass away at any time of their lifes and at every day, young and old. That is part of life and the Cosmos. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
G'day Banshee Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image! Time in space does exist, humans just invented ways of measuring it. If time did not exist in space what is stopping everything happening at once? Our <b>perception</b> of time is relative. A walk of a kilometre on flat ground seems shorter than a walk of a kilometre uphill. So distance is relative also. A light year is a convenient way for us to measure large distances.
What do you mean by when everything is stopping at once? I think I misunderstand you somehow. Will you explain to me what you mean by this? A kilometre is also an invention of humans, as is a Light-year, as is the distance they measure. Time is really made up by humans. Just like the months of a year and just as horoscopes. Smart inventions, but invented by humans. In Space, there is not one Planet, Star or Meteor who knows what time is. Humans invented time to live life in a more controlable way. Now scientists use this time for measuring the distance to a Planet, but it is an invention of humans. The Ancient Folks lived by the standing of the Sun and Moon. That is something completely different. They had no such thing as time. There wasn't even a year number or for instance Novembre 10. They lived by the Stars and Sun and Moon. So they knew when the warmer period was coming or going and when to grew their food and when it was necessarry to harvest and when the colder period came back. But never is there spoken of time in these period long, long ago. The year 1 began in the bible with the birth of jezus. The Jewish people themselves live in the year 5658, it may be that I am not exactly correct, but it is true. Check it out yourself if you don't believe me. So you see....What is time then? Very relative. Handy, but relative and invented by humans to have a better control over their way of living and working. How do you think of that? Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
Good effort. But my hunch always was that there was no center to the universe. If there is a centre to the universe there must be an edge. which of course there is on edge, because that would present a mathematical problem of what is "beyond". So we know for sure that the universe is edgeless - it is either curved back on itself - like the surface of a ball all directions come back to the same spot. Or open - the universe expands so fast you could never travel right round to the same place again - being really effectively flat. The theory of relativity says all motion is relative. Person A on a train sees person B on the station platform ... blah blah the classic analogy. This presents problems for the universe having a centre and edge. If observer A is at the centre of the universe and observer B & C are x-billion light years away in opposite directions, A will see B moving away from him at, for example, 1/2 the speed of light. Problem: this means time would be running slower for B than for A since B's speed would not be relative but absolute & definable because of A being a universeal reference point that has zero velocity. B looks out even further from the centre of the universe and sees D who is moving even faster, time running even slower, somewhere out there is poor Z that is almost frozen in time. Z looks back and sees A's lifetime pass in a matter of seconds. Well we don't observe that happing, looking deep into space we don't see the billion-year lifetime of stars popping in and out of existence like fireworks. Years ago I read some Stephen Hawking's work, which explained how the universe really works in this respect. Consider this with the line representing distance: <-------A-----B----C----D------> The universe itself is expanding - but the stuff in it isn't moving. If you expand the line so its twice its length - all the letters would have moved away from each other - relatively - YET none of them would have actually had any velocity and therefore no time dialation effects, only size and therefore distance of space has increased. <-----------A--------B-------C--------D---------> <--------------A------------B-----------C------------D------------> A see's B moving away from him the same ammount as D sees C moving away. B sees A and C moving away equaly. So no matter where you are in the universe you will see the rest of it moving away from you, and you will always appear to be in the dead centre. Well thats the basic concept as I understand it, hope its of interest. =)
Hi Banshee "Time" still exists in space because if it did not what would prevent all events happening at the same moment? Even though the <b>measurement</b> of the passage of time is a human construct, time must still pass for us to be able to measure it. Our ancestors still measured the passing of time only that they used natural events to keep track, eg. seasons and the Moon. I think the confusion is between the terms "Time" and "Humans measurement of time". If humans did not exist would the universe still evolve over time?
There is a centre to the universe, it's just that we are not able to find it. All motions are relative, as you mensioned, to us on Earth, we see things moving away from us (red shift), they move at different rate depends on the distance away from us (the stretch of space). This plus some other evidence such as the origin of the background radiation, nucleosynthesis of the light elements all support there is a Big Bang, from that we can prove that there's a centre, but just because we cannot detect where it is expanding from, we cannot say that there's not a centre. I'm not sure if we can say that the universe is edgeless. Say using gravity, it can only be zero at infinity. For us to get to this infinity, we need an infinate amout of energy, but if we could, it could be just as simple as getting out of a well and stepping into a new space - potential well. Not everything can happen at the same moment. Just say the formation of atoms, it cannot happen if there's no time. (see my previous post in this thread) Time began when the Big Bang occured and will keeps on going forward. It is the way we preceive time can makes the time relative. We can measure time using different methods, say the constant swing of a pendulum, or more accuratly light years. The speed for light to travel is always the same, but the way we view it makes it relative.
I'll have to disagree with you on this point Hevene. All the books on cosmology that I have read and the web sites I have visited agree that there is no centre to the universe. At the time of the BB all space and time was brought into creation. There is no preferred position within this universe that can be termed the centre. Just as there is no "centre" to the surface of a sphere.
Boris, I agree with you. There is no centre of the Universe and the Universe is endless. It seems there are much more Galaxy's then only this one we live in. The Cosmos is more complex then most humans realize. At this same moment there are 'places' in the Cosmos where life is going on, it is rather arrogant from humans to think they are the only living creatures out here in the Cosmos. We are living on this particular Planet and we do not know for sure, it is all theories we get from scientists. Scientists love that so much, but there is really no proof of it, none, all theories. There is a lot more going on in the Cosmos then those scientists say or think. They are looking for life forms at Planets in the neighbourhood of Earth, because they can't see any further, nor do they understand how the Cosmos 'works'. There are a lot of Beings out there, believe me. I am sorry to sound so arrogant myself about this, but I am a real good observer of the Cosmos and learned a lot about it and its Beings that are present there. That is why I tell you this, not to sound more wiser then anybody else. It is just what I learned and know about the Cosmos. Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
