America's true leadership role?

Discussion in 'Business & Economics' started by Undecided, Sep 30, 2004.

  1. Undecided Banned Banned

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    To you Americans…is this your nation’s goal and responsibility to become the stalwart internationally for economic, productive, and (questionable) moral growth? What the author states makes sense in the sense that there are multiple stages of economic growth and now that the US is currently experiencing the economic phenomena of catastrophic growth, this is when the old economy is destroyed for a better, more advanced one. The US is without question de-industrializing, and has to move on from her old economic mindset into a new one. The author asserts that technological economy is the new economy, the new American economy. My problem is that you need an educated population to do that, and American educational standards in the most important aspects of technology like math and science. America’s weakness is in her strength…self interest. America it is true has a great tradition of risk, but that risk is dependent on an population that was able to do that work…back in the 1950’s the population didn’t even need a high school education to get ahead, today a B.A isn’t even enough. Yet university tuitions in the US are prohibitively high, and millions of people who could have added on to this “Exuberant growth” are merely ignored because they don’t get adequate government support. Never has a economy grown without a government, and the government in the US is not fulfilling one of the basic tenants of a liberal state, universal education (more then just reading and adding), America has no hope of being #1 in the technological field if she doesn’t import her scientists, because we know that production of these products will not (or little) be done in the US. Good luck America…you need to prop up your education system or die.
     
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  3. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    as long as we are importing as intellectuals were safe.
     
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  5. neoclassical Banned Banned

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    America now has a useless population which has outpaced her population of thinkers. The lights grow dim for the empire, and not a moment too soon.
     
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  7. Undecided Banned Banned

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    Quite the opposite you assume they won’t go back to their home nation and use the expertise that they gained in the US against you? That is already happening, and America will be the big loser in all of it in the end. America has to develop her own talent or will end up with another deficit, an intellectual deficit. The US has to support 300 million people…how?
     
  8. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Considering how things have been going so far America still has a hold on intellectuals, patents and technological superiority in most categories, that not to say we aren't losing. But how rapidly are we losing it?
     
  9. Undecided Banned Banned

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    Be it a trickle or a flood...why isn't anything being done to actually stop it?
     
  10. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    because empires never last?
     
  11. Undecided Banned Banned

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    The real problem is a reprecussion from its fall, that's how we gauge her true importance.
     
  12. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Well in 2-3 decades with technology and economies outside of the USA then stronger, the collapse of the USA as the superpower will be a mild even quite event, that is of course if the USA weakens at a steady rate, give it a good major depression and it will USA will fall suddenly, spectacularly and much sooner, it will be almost as bad as the USSR.
     
  13. Undecided Banned Banned

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    I don't see the collapse of the United States as a geo-political event like the USSR, she is not a multi-nationalistic state. Americans from Utah to New Hampshire consider themselves American, you don't have state loyalty. I would imagine the closest the US has to a seperatist movement would be in the Southern United States, who would most likely get sick and tired of so called "liberal, atheist" attitude of the other regions of the country. I think America will decline...not collapse and it will be a slow one but it will be aparant, and nessecary. The US has to fall from grace in order for Globalization to actually work.
     
  14. towards Relax...head towards the light Registered Senior Member

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    Remember, the United States has the an incredibly high rate of immigration. When analyzing the stats that show percentage of high school graduates or higher education, you have to also consider that fact. The U.S. takes on a huge amount of population from third world , or lesser educated countries, and that has a substantial effect on its overall percentages. If you look at the percentages of the education of those who have lived here their entire lives, they are among the highest in the world (it still has the second largest percentage of higher education in the world). I do agree, however, that education in the U.S. is becoming extremely high priced, and this may lead to an eventual decline in higher education if the government does not support schools like it should.

    "The US has to fall from grace in order for Globalization to actually work", Undecided

    Why?

    "Quite the opposite you assume they won’t go back to their home nation and use the expertise that they gained in the US against you?", Undecided

    Except those who come to the U.S. for school (and some of them never return), the majority of people who immigrate have a tendency to stay. This is due to the fact that their higher education will allow them to make a considerably larger amount of cash in America, as opposed to were they may be from.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2004
  15. Undecided Banned Banned

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    If you look at the percentages of the education of those who have lived here their entire lives, they are among the highest in the world (it still has the second largest percentage of higher education in the world).

    Do you have a source for that? Just wondering? I do know that the US IQ is relatively high in comparison to other nations:

    IQ:United States: 98

    But in comparison to Asian nations who present the greatest threat to US hegemony:

    Singapore: 100
    Hong Kong: 107
    Taiwan: 104
    South Korea: 106
    China: 100


    Now IQ is heavily dependent on issues that are directly attributed to Technology, Math and science, and even logic. America has to catch up and even surpass those levels of education to remain competitive. The author of the article quoted was obviously a Reagonista imo because of his “American spirit” argument, which could have some tangible honestly, but in reality its bluster. You can’t hope on mysticism for things to change.

    Why?

    Re-orientation of capital, creating new markets, and freeing up resources for those new markets require that the West (not just the US) to depreciate in “value”. Our living standards have to depreciate, its destructive economics. We aren’t living a world in which you have nation A, and nation B living in bliss economic isolation (look at NK as an exception). When you have 2 billion people in two countries the entire western economy have fit in India, and China (actually 2x the size of the western economy. )

    Except those who come to the U.S. for school (and some of them never return), the majority of people who immigrate have a tendency to stay. This is due to the fact that their higher education will allow them to make a considerably larger amount of cash in America, as opposed to were they may be from.

    Yes that is true, the problem is that Americans aren’t be employed.
     
  16. towards Relax...head towards the light Registered Senior Member

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    This website explains that 30% of all workers without highschool diplomas are from the immigrant population, which is a far higher number than they represent in population. This will have a dramatic effect on statistics, since much of the hispanic population did not have the same chance to attend a higher level of school in comparison to those who have come from Asia.

    http://lvillage.esuhsd.org/lv/ihs/hp.nsf/files/brownd/$file/HispanicsDecliningIncome.htm

    Considering that the United States educates both legal and illegal immigrants, it is just common sense to assume that it will reflect in overall numbers. The U.S. numbers began to fall just as a high wave of immigration in the 1980's exploded. Americans are not lagging in education as many tend to believe, they just have the envitable change in statistics to match a liberal immigration policy.

    "Now IQ is heavily dependent on issues that are directly attributed to Technology, Math and science, and even logic.", Undecided

    Yes, but you would be surprised how education has a substantial effect on IQ scores, since this is not a perfect measurement of intelligence. The nations that tend to have high IQ's also tend to have a higher rate of education. If you are not used to taking tests, then the less likely you are to have a high score no matter what your intelligence. Though they try to incorporate logic only, the score generally reflects how good of test taker a person is or how trained they are in that examination.

    "Re-orientation of capital, creating new markets, and freeing up resources for those new markets require that the West (not just the US) to depreciate in “value”. Our living standards have to depreciate", Undecided

    This is a point of economics that is always under debate, but you have to remember the resources of the world are not a constant number. The living standards can continue to increase in the world, and have, based upon factors of production, as well as technology. The biggest threat to the share in the pie is the exploding population rate which guarantees that the poverty may continue to rise. I do not believe that in order for other emerging or industrialized nations to increase living standards, the U.S. must have a tremendous decline, as well. When one nations economy increases, it tends to have a strengthening effect on another nations economy rather that a negative impact.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2004
  17. Undecided Banned Banned

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    Americans are not lagging in education as many tend to believe, they just have the envitable change in statistics to match a liberal immigration policy.

    No you are lagging in education there is no question about that, the demographic situation in the US is a major factor but that doesn’t explain the low level of educational standards that the US has. You consistently lag behind other nations like Japan, and Canada in educational standards. I find it shocking that the issue of creationism is still even an issue in the US. It’s the American culture to an extent as well…no one wants to be geek. The American ideal is the jock not the book.

    Yes, but you would be surprised how education has a substantial effect on IQ scores, since this is not a perfect measurement of intelligence.

    Oh no of course not, although in terms of math, science, logic IQ is rather good measure.

    The nations that tend to have high IQ's also tend to have a higher rate of education.

    Shouldn’t that say something?

    Though they try to incorporate logic only, the score generally reflects how good of test taker a person is or how trained they are in that examination.

    Yes but empirically Asians are disproportionably in the Maths and sciences…there must be something to it.

    This is a point of economics that is always under debate, but you have to remember the resources of the world are not a constant number. The living standards can continue to increase in the world, and have, based upon factors of production, as well as technology.

    Livings standards can only increase for the world when the world is one. If we still have the concept of 1st, 3rd world then no there will disproportionate growth, and globalization would not be doing its job.

    The biggest threat to the share in the pie is the exploding population rate which guarantees that the poverty may continue to rise.

    Actually the human population growth is much lower now then at any time in history (I believe).

    I do not believe that in order for other emerging or industrialized nations to increase living standards, the U.S. must have a tremendous decline, as well. When one nations economy increases, it tends to have a strengthening effect on another nations economy rather that a negative impact.

    You are still stuck in this concept of nations…that’s the problem.
     
  18. towards Relax...head towards the light Registered Senior Member

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    "the demographic situation in the US is a major factor but that doesn’t explain the low level of educational standards that the US has. You consistently lag behind other nations like Japan, and Canada in educational standards", Undecided

    The point is that the changing demographics is why it seems to be lagging, not for lack of interest in education as you suggest. Math and Science courses continue to increase in the U.S. as a prerequisite for college, and its shows in the difficulty levels of both the ACT and SAT, the primary etrance exams for higher education. In neighborhoods that are poor or have a high immigration rate, obviously they cannont teach at the same level, and therefore you numbers show lagging in Math and Science. This is just a world view of the U.S. for the moment, a belief that Americans and lazy and uneducated. Yet somehow the U.S. always has the highest amount of hours worked of any industrialized nations, including that of both Canada and Japan.

    "Yes but empirically Asians are disproportionably in the Maths and sciences…there must be something to it.", Undecided

    Again, this is shows up in the statistics that are related to demograpics, not to the course work being taught. The belief that American schools do not teach is simply not true. The demands of colleges for math and science, as I said before, continues to increase.

    "You are still stuck in this concept of nations…that’s the problem.", Undecided

    I am stuck in the concept of nations because they still exist, have existed, and will always exist. As long as different societies have different beliefs and are fighting for resources, there will always be a concept of nation. Even under an emerging economy, conflict does not cease to exist simply because this is human nature.

    "Livings standards can only increase for the world when the world is one", Undecided

    Now we leave the united world dream and return to reality.... there will always be Conflict, and always be a third world and first.
     
  19. Undecided Banned Banned

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    The point is that the changing demographics is why it seems to be lagging, not for lack of interest in education as you suggest.

    It cannot be a singular event; you cannot tell me that American education would be the best in the world if it weren’t for the immigrants. In Grade 3 the US is falling behind, we aren’t talking about high school diplomas anymore. There are major problems, under funded schools, underpaid teachers, attitude towards education by the American student (which is not overall positive), larger class sized (some part due to immigration), and generally economic malaise. To tell me in all honesty that the only problem with America’s education system is demographics is selective knowledge.

    Math and Science courses continue to increase in the U.S. as a prerequisite for college, and its shows in the difficulty levels of both the ACT and SAT, the primary etrance exams for higher education.

    What are the demographics of Americans going to University? With university in the US costing $20,000 a year while here in Canada its $4000, and in some parts of Europe its free its to America’s own detriment.

    This is just a world view of the U.S. for the moment, a belief that Americans and lazy and uneducated. Yet somehow the U.S. always has the highest amount of hours worked of any industrialized nations, including that of both Canada and Japan.

    Americans have the most hours worked because they scared that their jobs will be lost if they don’t. High productivity is actually the only way Americans can justify their wages. Also there is emphasis on work not education which you highlighted, because the Canadian and Japanese government encourage higher education and subsidize a large portion of it the type of work is more complex.

    Again, this is shows up in the statistics that are related to demograpics, not to the course work being taught. The belief that American schools do not teach is simply not true. The demands of colleges for math and science, as I said before, continues to increase.

    Continues to increase and the amount of people from Asian nations going to these courses increases and leaves out the American. A university is going to pick a foreign student over a local student due to the higher tuition. Many of the university students in these courses are not even American.

    I am stuck in the concept of nations because they still exist, have existed, and will always exist.

    Nominally yes…capitalistically no.

    As long as different societies have different beliefs and are fighting for resources, there will always be a concept of nation. Even under an emerging economy, conflict does not cease to exist simply because this is human nature.

    This has nothing to do with what I am talking about…you are still in this old fallacious mindset.

    Now we leave the united world dream and return to reality.... there will always be Conflict, and always be a third world and first.

    And we will lose as a result if you think like that…
     
  20. towards Relax...head towards the light Registered Senior Member

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    "There are major problems, under funded schools, underpaid teachers, attitude towards education by the American student positive), larger class sized (some part due to immigration), and generally economic malaise", Undecided

    Problems like underfunded schools, larger class sizes, and underpaid teachers are usually the result of the economic situation. Since the economy goes through cycles, the school funding problems do, as well. They have less to do with a problem with American education and more to do with how much funds are available at the time. As far as an American attitude towards education, I do not know were your viewpoint comes from? Who says the American attitude towards education is poor? I just do not see that from the people I know... If anything they are desperate to get more due to the threat of outsourcing. I think you have watched to many bogus hollywood movies.....

    "With university in the US costing $20,000 a year while here in Canada its $4000, and in some parts of Europe its free its to America’s own detriment.", Undecided

    Though I agree this rise may become a problem in the future, it has not had an effect on those attending thus far. Remember also, that a good portion of those tution prices are given out as grants, so the cost actually turns out to be much lower. It is kind of a ridiculous pattern: The colleges increase their price because the costs of grants goes up. Yes, many nations have a free education but you simply cannot compare two contries like that. My wife, who is from Poland, studied medicine in her native country. Her education was basically free, but her monthly salary would fall in around 200 a month. An experienced physician receives around 800 dollars a month. A physician in the U.S. would receive around 20,000. Ample opportunity to pay off the cost of college. Though I do agree with you that if college costs go out of control, then it could have a detrimental effect.

    "Canadian and Japanese government encourage higher education", Undecided

    I agree the U.S. could invest more in their students, instead of paying that billion for a stealth airplane.

    "And we will lose as a result if you think like that… ", Undecided

    If only I had some proof that it would change.
     
  21. Undecided Banned Banned

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    Problems like underfunded schools, larger class sizes, and underpaid teachers are usually the result of the economic situation. Since the economy goes through cycles, the school funding problems do, as well.

    That’s not true, because someone living in Compton will always have lower ebb of education, no matter the economic growth of the country. Using that logic, the US shouldn’t have fallen behind during the 90’s, American growth economically is too small in relation to that of the Asian states. In order for the US to make up the gap there has to a massive infusion of money into the educational system to keep up with these economies that show no sign of stopping. America has chosen her route, that is to support the military, and corporate interests over that of the American citizen.

    As far as an American attitude towards education, I do not know were your viewpoint comes from? Who says the American attitude towards education is poor?

    How do I know? You don’t think I don’t talk to Americans who are in high school? I just came out of high school and I know how students perceive education, and large portions do not take it seriously enough. Unlike you I see it with my own two eyes.

    I just do not see that from the people I know... If anything they are desperate to get more due to the threat of outsourcing. I think you have watched to many bogus hollywood movies.....

    The people who are scared about outsourcing are working are they not? Are high school students afraid of outsourcing? I don’t know what you are talking about.

    Though I agree this rise may become a problem in the future, it has not had an effect on those attending thus far.

    Except that it has created even more debt for the average American, which is again unsustainable. Also it alienates large segments of the population who want to go because they cannot afford it. America has much untapped talent, and she is losing out to other nations.

    Remember also, that a good portion of those tution prices are given out as grants, so the cost actually turns out to be much lower.

    Not to everyone…$20,000 is ludicrous.

    Yes, many nations have a free education but you simply cannot compare two contries like that. My wife, who is from Poland, studied medicine in her native country. Her education was basically free, but her monthly salary would fall in around 200 a month.

    I don’t see the connection btwn her free university education and her wages that has NOTHING to do with one another. The reason why is paid so little is because that is the living standard of the nation is much lower then in the US, and medicine in Poland I would assume is a public not private venture.

    Though I do agree with you that if college costs go out of control, then it could have a detrimental effect.

    If? When tuition costs 54% of the American per capita income, that out of control.

    I agree the U.S. could invest more in their students, instead of paying that billion for a stealth airplane.

    So you agree that America’s greatest threat is not terrorism but her inability to adequately fund her education system?

    If only I had some proof that it would change.

    What exactly?
     
  22. towards Relax...head towards the light Registered Senior Member

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    Gravity: I could only find one source on the entire internet for the grandfather international test, and I noticed several problems with the website. The writer, for instance, noted that the present generations SAT scores are lower than past generations, which is simply not true. In reality, it changes from year to year. The SAT, however, is considerably more difficult now that it was 30 years ago, containing more complicated math and science. Secondly, the author could not even determine if he felt 11,000 americans took the test, so he seems a little unreliable.

    http://www.pisa.oecd.org/Docs/download/pisaplus_eng01.pdf

    Page 317 under Mathematical Literacy sums up the tests on an excellent graph, if you wish to avoid spending to much time. Here is an organization that is greatly referenced and performed an extensive evaluation of students throughout the world. Students took both a self-evaluation and then tests in Math, Science, and Reading. This test shows while the U.S. was not the best, it certainly was not the worst of the industrialized nations.

    Also, as before, I will point out the tremendous immigration that the United States has had to deal with for the last 24 years. America is obligated to teach both its legal and illegal immigrants, and this has a great effect on its score. Most of the illegal population does come from south of the border, where the education level generally is poorer. Also, these students must deal with a language issue, and have a tendency to learn slower until they have adjusted to English. The decline of U.S. scores begins with a corrensponding increase in immigration. If you notice the nations in your grandfather test, generally the ones taking in a great deal of people have a tendency to score lower.

    Finally, the U.S. is still 10th in overall high school education and 2nd overall in higher education. High school is lower at this point, again due to changing demographics. No nation has more students enter is colleges from abroad than does America, and I am sure this has to do with the quality of the Universities.
     
  23. Gravity Deus Ex Machina Registered Senior Member

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    I'm going to do some more Googling around on education stats. But don't worry, relax I'm sure that "USA IS #1, #1 you hear me NUMBER ONE!!!!" (Best understood by yelling this in a loud southern accent)

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    So I'll do some more homework, hoping someday to be able to hold even the shadow of a candle flicker to your obvious brilliance!

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    Meanwhile, one little question. Your tone regarding immigrants, you sound pretty unhappy about them! Is this true? When should immigration here in the 'Land of the Free' have been stopped do you think? The 1950's, 1920's, 1880's, 1776? You a Native American?
     

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