View Full Version : Samsara cycle
eincloud
09-10-04, 01:02 AM
you want to get out of it or not
Athelwulf
09-10-04, 01:42 AM
What is the Samsara Cycle?
eincloud
09-10-04, 01:44 AM
The samsara cycle is the cycle of death and rebirth. The only way to get out of it is by achieving nirvana
Athelwulf
09-10-04, 02:15 AM
So then I assume escaping this cycle means immortality. Is that so?
eincloud
09-10-04, 02:35 AM
It is more so that once reach nirvana you stop being reborn
a little boy-heros dream....can you see him?'''.....seethat dust on the road?,,,,that's him just gone past. he's got a big sword and is lookin for a Dragon sos he can kill it and put his foot on it and have his photo took........
airavata
09-10-04, 01:19 PM
Escaping from the cycle means freedom from the cycle of birth and rebirth and the fusion of your soul with the Atman.
parasite
09-28-04, 10:18 AM
nirvana is the goal of all those who believe in the circle - isn't it?
wans't 'circles' and squares etc part of the geomatria that was deified by pythagoras and co?
i prefer spiral.......its more organic and interesting, and labyrinthe of course
airavata
09-29-04, 09:09 AM
Nirvana, Moksha.... different names for one objective.
whitewolf
10-05-04, 12:56 AM
I don't want to break from the cycle; I love life too much, with all its struggles and beings. To me, once you finish learning, you must teach; and to teach the multitudes is an endless task.
one_raven
10-05-04, 05:14 AM
you want to get out of it or not
A desire to break free from samsara, is a desire, therefore will keep you from breaking free from samsara.
You must be free of all desires, including the desire to be free from desire.
According to Buddha, anyway.
airavata
10-05-04, 01:51 PM
Maybe the very process which was triggered by desire eliminates it in the end.
There is no end. Nirvana does not exist. It is a logical idea developed by Buddha and many others to solve the perception of misery. Infinity does not have any end.
From a purely practical aspects, even Buddha has to come back to teach. Otherwise the great Atman or whatever you are supposed to join would get mad, because someone has to teach these rascals how to live so that creation can go on. Stopping creation just does not work - besides you can not prove the creation would stop and never start again.
We have a long way to go. You just can not get off from this journey.
Rajagopals
10-08-04, 07:18 AM
I had a dream(1), that I am sleeping and having a dream(2) and then suddenly I woke up from my dream (2), and my mind assumed the fact that I am awake ! Am I ?
Which cycle (dream) are we talking about ?
everneo
10-08-04, 04:48 PM
When realizing that our 'self' does not get affected by anything - happiness or sadness, good or bad - we loose interest in these illusions. But the problem is we are afraid of loosing these illusions. As Vivekanda said, a little candle light can drive away years of darkness instantly.
Look for PATTERNS no 'samsara' 'nirvana':
Yes, i encourage you to look for the similar pattern that the conept of 'nirvana' and 'samsara' shares which iiiiis (trumpets sound.......!!) man's fear of D E A T H!.......the dream of man to escape 'necessity' (Greek)...the 'wheel of life and death'.....all the patriarchal ideas from philosophy, to myth, to religion, to secual ideas, to transhumanism, etc...ALL want to escape death
Why do you think this is so?
ALL want to escape death
Sure they do...but then reality bites....ouch...:D
The great Superman...passed away at 52....MHS RIP
YES, Bless him. It was awful what happened to him, and yet he kept strong when he realized his family still loved and accepted him......don't know what happens after physical death, but i am glad he is free of his contricting injury
UltiTruth
10-12-04, 01:05 PM
It is destiny. If one is destined to break off the cycle, one will!
everneo
10-12-04, 07:01 PM
You got it reverse ? Breaking the cycle means getting out of the clutches of the destiny.
Rajagopals
10-13-04, 12:41 AM
Superman’s demise reminds me of something, may be a bit off the topic but would like to know how others think of the same. From some of my experience of seeing people die (of decease, age etc) I felt as if they were ready to go, and was aware kind of! Have you people felt the same, or has experienced something like that?
Well, i have read this book by Dr Stanislav Grof. He did research with people dying of cancer years back......He as allowed to given them LSD. A good percentage of them after having had thie experience felt less fear of death, realized their holding onto life was not good for members of their families
so with such insights many were able to let go. this speaks a lot for the will ti live!
mercurio
10-13-04, 03:02 PM
Errrr. Where's the bodhisattva option?
(3) - Breaking free of the circle, but staying around to help until everbody else has.
aka Last one turn off the Light. ;)
UltiTruth
10-14-04, 10:24 AM
You got it reverse ? Breaking the cycle means getting out of the clutches of the destiny.
Not really; because your wanting or not wanting to break out of the cycle is of no significance. Breaking out would be the result of lots of equations if you look at the karma theory.
So if your destiny is to break out, you will break out and probably will also want to break out. :D
everneo
10-15-04, 07:08 AM
Not really; because your wanting or not wanting to break out of the cycle is of no significance.
Almost all the saints/spiritual gurus insisted that we should wish & make effort to break the samsara cycle by various means - bhakti, yoga, Gnana etc. They did not advice us to wait for the bus.
Breaking out would be the result of lots of equations if you look at the karma theory.
So if your destiny is to break out, you will break out and probably will also want to break out. :D
You are talking like a fatalist. :D
everneo
10-15-04, 07:13 AM
Errrr. Where's the bodhisattva option?
(3) - Breaking free of the circle, but staying around to help until everbody else has.
aka Last one turn off the Light. ;)
Thats great.
mercurio
10-15-04, 02:32 PM
“For as long as space endures
And for as long as living beings remain,
Until then may I too abide
To dispel the misery of the world.”
http://kyky.essortment.com/whatisbodhisat_rfld.htm
whoa whoa whoa...
i'm confused.
i thought that the whole point of the cycle of samsara was that you needed to reunite your atman with brahma. it's not like living and not dying, it's being 'everything.' you'd want to break the cycle because life sucks. or at least, that's what i thought moksha was...
and, like, all the lives you cycle through the varnas with are purer and closer to brahma.
if i'm wrong about this then i seriously failed that test i took tuesday... :eek:
-niv
Break the cycle? May be in another 20 billion years...what is time anyway...then you need not come back, because there would not be anything left to come back to....until the next cycle...and it begins again...
By then, who knows, you might have moved on to the next step in evolution like Angels or Devatas depending on where you live...
mercurio
10-23-04, 04:49 AM
whoa whoa whoa...
i'm confused.
i thought that the whole point of the cycle of samsara was that you needed to reunite your atman with brahma. it's not like living and not dying, it's being 'everything.' you'd want to break the cycle because life sucks. or at least, that's what i thought moksha was...
and, like, all the lives you cycle through the varnas with are purer and closer to brahma.
if i'm wrong about this then i seriously failed that test i took tuesday... :eek:
-niv
That sounds more like the standard Hindu line, but that also includes castes (Varna), between which you could 'travel' by rebirth, until they changed the system in about 500 BC, and that became 'impossible'. :bugeye:
I also have some trouble distinguishing between the different varieties - fortunately I didn't have to take that test... ;)
everneo
10-24-04, 05:45 AM
i'm confused.
i thought that the whole point of the cycle of samsara was that you needed to reunite your atman with brahma. it's not like living and not dying, it's being 'everything.' you'd want to break the cycle because life sucks. or at least, that's what i thought moksha was...
I understand, Mosksha is liberation from the cycle & reunite with brahman. How & Why the cycles started was not answered satisfactorily by anyone.
and, like, all the lives you cycle through the varnas with are purer and closer to brahma.
Many times sages born in lower castes, demons born in upper castes.:p
Many times sages born in lower castes, demons born in upper castes...
The idea of reincarnation is with both Hinduism and Buddhism.... I think I have an interesting take on it. What if we are all part of a larger intelligence where that intelligence learns the ultimate reality through us just as you learn stuff from building models in the computer...
Rajagopals
11-02-04, 03:50 AM
[I]What if we are all part of a larger intelligence where that intelligence learns the ultimate reality through us just as you learn stuff from building models in the computer...
You forgot about the guy who invented computer, who enhanced it, and who wrote the modeling tool as well as the wood in the woden table on which the comuter is kept, the water that made the tree to grow to become so big to be cut to made a table, as well as few other billions things for you to "build models in the computer" ! :D
TruthSeeker
12-16-04, 12:23 PM
This is a hard question....! After all, this planet is quite interesting... :D:D
mercurio
12-16-04, 03:53 PM
No I did not..:D
Who says there needs to be 'this guy', after all? :)
Hi,
You all are confused,therefore i think there's a need to clairfy.The thought of breaking from the cycle has got nothing to do with assumption that beyond the death,there lies a reality which is absolute in nature.
The real freedom will be when we stop thinking about cause and effect relationship, since in our universe everything that has a start has an end and therefore effect and cause relationship exists.On,the other hand imagine when we think beyond all this.We think beyond the reason that has to exist because we belong to a world where we are bound by the constraints of cause and effects.
Creation
Creation idea is gibberish,even science would agree.The idea that something is being created is not accurate since by thinking and saying that something has been created is like following the rules of the universe,which is not correct.The cause and effect relationship remember?
The knowledge as i have pointed out earlier of this world or and any other universe that is bound by laws or at least in terms of our thoughts are just manifestations of ultimate reality that we fail to see and realize,since our senses are limited.The truth is after death even if we consider ourselves freee,we are not.
Why? since freedom is when our soul sees its true form which nothing but brahman (pronounced as brahma).Our souls are manifestation of absolute truth that is brahma which appropriately represents eveeyone.
Even gods.yes even Gods.We are of same souls,but its just that Gods can experience and realize the ultimate reality and manifest it accordingly knowing that it will ultimately be the same.Its like you know something is gold, you first make a biscuit out of it, then you melt it and metamorphose it into a bracelet,but ultimately what is it? Gold.
So the ultimate freedom from Samsara Cycle; is realization of Brahma the absolute truth and reality.That should be the goal of every soul,(again goal itself as i speak is gibberish since it brings the cause and effect realtionship ;)) hehe...
untill you dont realize the reality; Enjoy!!! Life guys!!...There's plenty to see around this illusionary world and learn.
bye!
Some out-of-the-box thinking…
I have a different take on the souls though…an analogy would be – consider a java computer application on a specific hardware. Imagine, you move that application along with all the up to date information to a different computer. You still will be in business.
There could be an unknown process that allows the contents of our soul to move from the physical body and remain in a soul container which can allow soul to learn the higher levels of the reality and grow. At this point you could be free from the worldly human cycle but still governed by the higher level cause and effect.
mercurio
12-20-04, 04:22 AM
"The living are the dead on holiday." -- Maurice de Maeterlinck (1862-1949)
Interesting man, Belgian playwright - among many other things.
http://nobelprize.org/literature/laureates/1911/maeterlinck-bio.html
ReploidKnight
12-31-04, 11:09 AM
I guess I misunderstood the "cycle". The cycle I want to escape from is that of the ego. When I stop behaving to satisfy the wants of myself and those around me, I will be satisfied.
Here's a cool guy. Take a look.
http://www.alltm.org/Maharishi.html
I firmly believe that our cyclical existance will end once the world understands that our fates are one fate, and that we are simply threads of the same fabric of existance. No matter how we come to that realization, it must happen on a global scale.
ReploidKnight
12-31-04, 11:15 AM
by the way, I have only superficial knowledge of eastern philosophies, but it's really not necessary. Look at the world around you, consider the history of the world as you know it, and open yourself up to perceiving things that arent "possible".
Here is something to think about. In the reality of realities, there is no cycle. We are all already there. Just some of us are sleeping and don't realize we are there. Once we wake up, we realize we are.
philosophy in a nut shell. Before people start beating up this idea--Each of us are having our own dream. No matter what it may be, Budhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Atheism, Existentialism, Work-a-holic, Lazy Bum, President of the US or whatever, once we finally wake up from this dream, we will realize we and everything else are already there. In my dream that realization will be that we are one with God, and therefore God himself.
i believe the whole dies of samsara has come from certian men. and men who have not liked the environment they find themselfves in duee to probable wars, famine, desolation etc. and from there they also are not at ease with feelings, of desire, emotional stuff....'messiness'
so they dream up the idea of eventual escape from the 'cycle'...and they form cults which offer this promise to other disgruntled ...monks. and so the story goes
to the poster here who hates his 'selfishness' ...well that too is part of their myth. that self=bad, and/or 'illusion'. when in reaity we are continuum...sometimes we are less selfish, sometimes very selfish, depending, there is nothing wrong with being selfish as LONg as it doesn't culminate in the awful selfishness of our menahsitic systems thats eating up planet Earth
haha..thought you should know this. a synchronistic thing happened when i typed last post
i access open internet though my TV and i can see in the corner of the creeen the channel....well just as i ttyped about the godawful selfihsness doing our planet in whose face do you think i saw in the corner...?
WBush...t was part of an excertp of the Micheal Moore film Farenhiegght (forgot the rest) soon to be shown on our TV....
ahahahah
mercurio
01-16-05, 01:42 PM
Here is something to think about. In the reality of realities, there is no cycle. We are all already there. Just some of us are sleeping and don't realize we are there. Once we wake up, we realize we are.
philosophy in a nut shell. Before people start beating up this idea--Each of us are having our own dream. No matter what it may be, Budhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Atheism, Existentialism, Work-a-holic, Lazy Bum, President of the US or whatever, once we finally wake up from this dream, we will realize we and everything else are already there. In my dream that realization will be that we are one with God, and therefore God himself.
And after that realisation, the arhat shall never be fooled by Maya again, the pratyekabuddha will realise a great thing for himself (and maybe for others), and the bodhisattva will realise a great thing for others (and maybe for himself).
And after that realisation, the arhat shall never be fooled by Maya again, the pratyekabuddha will realise a great thing for himself (and maybe for others), and the bodhisattva will realise a great thing for
"MAya
others (and maybe for himself).
"MAya" when you see the root "MA" we know it is ancient and related to woman, 'Mother" Goddess
as is 'Matter/ MAter.....all meaning the Feminine. and patriarchy ahas been very very busy demonizing MA, and seeking escape, cause it is pissed for gettin 'fooled' etc, but it is all in his divided mind
mercurio
01-16-05, 03:03 PM
"MAya" when you see the root "MA" we know it is ancient and related to woman, 'Mother" Goddess
as is 'Matter/ MAter.....all meaning the Feminine. and patriarchy ahas been very very busy demonizing MA, and seeking escape, cause it is pissed for gettin 'fooled' etc, but it is all in his divided mind
Avidya (no knowledge) would have been a better word, indeed, but is less known. It is the same thing. Any multiplicity or division is caused by it, and to seek 'explanation' of the 'true' substance of 'the goddess' Maya is falling for the lure already.
Avidya (no knowledge) would have been a better word, indeed, but is less known. It is the same thing. Any multiplicity or division is caused by it, and to seek 'explanation' of the 'true' substance of 'the goddess' Maya is falling for the lure already.
also avidya means 'ignorance'.....and your interpretation of it is the perception and feeling of multiplicity or division which you believe is the 'cause' of ignorance?
So they assume a 'oneness' don't they? so we then have a division and duality between a 'one' and a 'many'....they apparently were ignorant of that...
bit concused about yu saying explanation of Goddess is already 'falling for the lure already'. i would like you to explian more what yo mean by this. what i THINK you mean is that understanding immanence in diversity is somehow 'Maya'.....is that what you mean?
mercurio
01-17-05, 02:24 AM
also avidya means 'ignorance'.....and your interpretation of it is the perception and feeling of multiplicity or division which you believe is the 'cause' of ignorance?
So they assume a 'oneness' don't they? so we then have a division and duality between a 'one' and a 'many'....they apparently were ignorant of that...
bit concused about yu saying explanation of Goddess is already 'falling for the lure already'. i would like you to explian more what yo mean by this. what i THINK you mean is that understanding immanence in diversity is somehow 'Maya'.....is that what you mean?
Avidya is the blessed or cursed state we're all born in, as Awake describes.
'Waking up' apparently is for the few, but once truly awake, you need not fear falling back. You may even come to temporarily regret the loss, but gone is gone. It truly is a threshold.
After that, the realisation other people cannot/will not see through their avidya. It resembles trying to wake up a drugged person that's falling asleep again as soon as you look away. Hopeless. That's why old texts write about arhats that behave as if their 'hair is on fire'.
Better to proceed, and check the old texts describing the gifts of the pratyekabuddha's. There seem to be many kinds, since there are many paths people can be born to.
Duendy, oneness is very, very hard to describe in 'logical' terms. All your senses, and you logic tells you different. Your intelligence is measured initially in your ability to tell differences, seeing big patterns is deemed 'more advanced'. So all our training, and a large deal of our practice, is in treating the world in 'details', while all the while it was one large process, and that the subdivisions were arbitrary, or even wrong.
Avidya is forgetting this, all the time. Like you had Teflon on the brain. It won't stick. Ah, details. And there you go again. Questions that cannot even wait around for an answer because already new ones are screaming for attention.
The waking up begins with what Awake describes, and once awake, the reverse becomes true. You cannot forget the oneness at any given time, anymore. More importantly, the certaintly it always adds up to one in the end gives a real sense of calm.
Avidya is not the asking questions. It's the not being able to stop asking questions, not even to think about an answer, ever. The 'waking up' analogy or 'dropping the blindfold' are slightly misleading metaphors.
A more correct one would be that you realise in amazement you already know what you were about to ask next, and that the act of asking would purely be a strange kind of reflex. And then again, next time. Worse, others seem to be doing it, too.
That's a start. You just discovered a tap on a spouting fountain of questions that threatened to drown out all important stuff *uniting* all the differences.
Mercurio, have you got the 'oneness' you seem to know so much about?
Duendy,
I can't speak for Mercurio, but I believe we ALL have the oneness, just not the self-realization of that oneness. I think people can intellectually know something and not have the actual experience of realization. It is as if an epiphany happens. You may work toward a goal but then all of a sudden you understand and realize the solution or answer. Analogy-a mathematical problem, you are working and working to find the solution and then all of a sudden you figure out the right way to work the problem and get the solution. What seemed unsolvable becomes brief work to the solution.
LightOfErindir
01-22-05, 12:59 PM
I'm sorry for diverting ...but in Hindu philosophy...God in the most abstract form is Vrutti....i.e. a tendency towards something...just a disturbance...which leads to the formation of the world.
So the world goes on ...irrespective of whether u want to break away from it or not. By the end of the universe ... never will all the humans be FREE.
Even if u reach a completely balanced state (unification with Brahma) it will still not remain that way... beacause every system has a tendency to go towards more and more disorder...and somtimes the too much of randomness leads to order that is what u call pralay.
Existence of enlightened beings in the universe does not change the way whole system follows...it just changes the time span...That is what gives rise to the varying time of the Yugas...More enlightened beings...more time to disorder...less enlightened beings...less time to disorder...But there IS in the end a disorder ....which leads to order!!....So in the end it's all just about random disturbances.
freaky eh?!!
mercurio
01-22-05, 01:16 PM
Mercurio, have you got the 'oneness' you seem to know so much about?
What Awake describes is pretty much correct, I think.
To answer your question without being evasive: yes.
To be more precise, and human: I'm aware of the fact most of the time, and whenever I seem to forget I get 'shocked' back into it pretty quick. Everyone has their human traits of impatience and temper. At least, I do.
With almost everyone else it's the other way around, and their moments of a sense of oneness is brief, and leaves a lasting impression on them which they sadly cannot seem to recreate.
What I described can be found in other places, too, but I happen to speak from experience. Not an experience I'd wish upon anyone else, but it seemed to have had a nice bonus effect, sort of. 'Formative disaster' would fit the bill nicely. Don't really want to get into all sorts of details here tho.
But to put it into perspective: it's like you can suddenly turn off the noise in your head that was there as long as you can remember, but which only gets really conspicuous when it's suddenly absent.
It all probably has a very good neurological explanation, like balancing out your limbic and neocortical system better than before, after a really drastic change of course in your lifestyle. Most people never get to that point because they change things back real quick when the going gets rough.
Once science has had a good look, nothing's really special anymore, right? :)
mercurio
01-22-05, 01:56 PM
[1] I'm sorry for diverting ...but in Hindu philosophy...God in the most abstract form is Vrutti....
[2] never will all the humans be FREE
[1] normal, expected codes of conduct or ordinance ('sAstrA', 'vrutti')
eye think u mixed up a few t'ings, bro. :eek:
[2] now that is something one can ultimately only decide for oneself, according to the Buddha at least, by freeing oneself from desire. I'll stick with him, if you don't mind. :)
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