Help me pick....

Discussion in 'Computer Science & Culture' started by whitewolf, Aug 4, 2004.

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  1. whitewolf asleep under the juniper bush Registered Senior Member

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    I am getting a new computer this summer and plan to use it for my art stuff on a professional level. I know little about computers, but Dell's Dimension 8400 makes me very happy so far. However, my school is filled with Macs. What's the difference between Mac and PC? I keep hearing that all artists want to have Macs; why is that?
     
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  3. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    I don't know that much about Macs but my PC that I just built has got really great graphics and resolution for game play or image manipulation. I've heard that Macs are better with graphics but I think today that if you get a good processor, graphic card and software that you will be able to have anything you want done on any PC.
     
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  5. Fraggle Rocker Staff Member

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    Most artists prefer Macs because they want to spend their time being creative and following through with ideas they have. You can't do that with a PC because you have to spend at least ten percent of your time being a software mechanic, or more like fifty percent if you haven't already learned how to be a software mechanic and have to do it during the time you'd rather be using your computer instead of begging it to give you back your own data.

    I 'm an IT professional, I've been in this business since 1967. I've developed end-user application software, utility software for programmers and other technicians, and a colleague and I even wrote an entire operating system for a mainframe. I've also managed software projects. I've also trained people in various computer languages, taught relational database theory when it was just going commercial, and introduced computer security to one of the world's largest IT shops. I was so highly regarded that when I warned that shop of the Y2K risk, they started work on Y2K remediation in 1995 so they were completely finished in 1998. Now I teach and implement software project process improvement, including the measurement of software quality. I get $800 a day plus expenses when I'm contracting, although since the Y2K consulting recession I've had to take a salaried job that only pays $100K a year. I'm published and regarded as a guru by my peers.

    Those are my credentials. Most people trust me, but you make up your own mind.

    What I have to say is that the people who develop PC software have, as a matter of macho pride, chosen to ignore all the lessons we old mainframe jockeys learned the painful, hard way thirty years ago. By 1975 mainframes did not have deadlocks. Application programs could not crash the operating system. Nobody could sneak an instruction into a mainframe (at least not a Unisys mainframe) by disguising it as data -- no viruses, in other words.

    As a result, PC software has all of these problems and many more. My current specialty is teaching IT shops how to improve their processes. You can measure the rate of that improvement in a variety of dimensions. The IT managers themselves like to see improvements in productivity, more software functionality delivered per person per year, making them all richer. But what matters to the people who use software -- whether employees of a corporation who have to use what their own programmers build or paying customers who have to use what they can buy from the software houses -- is improvements in quality. You want fewer defects in a given quantity of software functionality in 2004 than you had to settle for in 1999.

    And you're not getting that. The defect rate in both commercial PC software and in-house developed PC software has not improved measurably in five years -- hell not even in ten years.

    One reason is that the developers are overreaching. They haven't mastered the process of building mundane management information systems, but they're out there trying to build software that links the whole world together. The other reason is that their managers don't give a damn. They refuse to learn from anyone that it's possible to turn software development from the medieval craft that it is into a true engineering discipline. They don't run software projects the way any other engineering manager would run any other engineering project. If bridges, airliners, microwave ovens, or even toilets were engineered to the standards of PC software, we'd be back in the Dark Ages by midnight.

    Apple, on the other hand, engineers its software. The best example is their operating systems, the heart of any computer. They are not still using an OS that was originally designed in the 1980s, when computers had monochrome monitors with single-font, text-only displays, floppy disks, a megabyte of memory, and no way to talk to each other, and hanging new functionality onto it every year or two to try to make it compatible with video graphics and the internet. They throw away their operating system every time they design a new model computer and build a new operating system to perfectly fit it and all the new technology. As a bonus, each operating system is built using the software engineering principles that have been learned since the last time. Each one is built better, stronger, and smarter than the last one. The downside is that a Mac user has to re-buy a lot of their software because it won't run on the new machine with the new operating system. But the upside is that the old software with its few unfound and uncorrected defects is in the garbage and you've got new software built to higher quality and performance standards.

    I'm as knowledgeable a computer professional as almost anybody on this forum, and I have a PC because the company I work for hasn't gotten the word yet. I spend a good ten percent of my time being a software mechanic, and I still lose a lot of data and miss a lot of deadlines. I double back-up everything important and I swear I still keep printouts of my most important stuff. Every second I spend at my computer is fraught with anxiety, wondering whether I'll be able to finish what I'm doing or stay up half the night begging my PC to do the job it was supposedly designed for. I play games too, and they work just as bad. I get a good one going and the keyboard freezes up, but the game goes on without me and I lose because it won't let me move. And do you want to hear about viruses and Trojan horses? Hackers are finding wormholes in Windows XP that were created in Windows 98. The operating system has been "enhanced" and "maintained" and "debugged" for six years and undergone four or five major upgrades, yet defects from the original version haven't been found or fixed.

    My wife, on the other hand, is a retired social worker with a degree in English. She uses her Macintosh to run her home business and nothing ever goes wrong, except for the foolish mistake she made of installing the Mac versions of Microsoft Word and Microsoft Excel instead of paying for software that was written specifically for the Mac. She's actually quite an expert with PCs and can even tear them apart physically. She hasn't had to use any of that expertise since she got the Mac. Every second she spends at her computer is productive work or play. She's got anti-virus protection, but hardly anyone even bothers trying to write viruses to attack Macintoshes. Admittedly that is partially because most of you nice people refuse to buy them so it's not much fun to break into them. But mostly it's because it's really hard to find a wormhole in Mac OS. And just about the time you do, they throw OS-9 in the trash and come out with OS-X, which was built from the ground up and doesn't contain any of the few defects that escaped detection in OS-9, and was built to modern software engineering standards rather than those of five years ago -- much less those of the Dark Ages.

    A Macintosh is an applicance. You buy it to use. You turn it on, use it, and turn it off. Kind of like a Mercedes-Benz.

    A PC is a project. You bring it home, fiddle with it to get it working, use it until it stops working, then fiddle with it some more, sometimes having to rebuild the software, and eventually you end up getting a second one for backup. Kind of like a Polski Fiat.

    You decide which one suits your lifestyle best.

    Oh -- if you decide to ignore my advice, at least do yourself a favor and don't buy a Dell. My company leased a couple thousand of them and they had to hire more technicians to keep them running. We were counting the minutes until the lease ran out and had a big party when they were replaced with IBMs. If you've just got to be like everybody else and own a PC instead of a Mac, make it an IBM. At least the only problems you'll ever have will be in the software, not the hardware. That makes debugging much easier.
     
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  7. invert_nexus Ze do caixao Valued Senior Member

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    Macs are pretty. Pretty expensive. I'd like to play with one, but I'd rather not pay 5000 bucks for a computer. Sure, that's probably only for the high end macs, but still. They're far too pricey in my mind.

    Never having used one I can't give any advice on which is better. But, I'll repeat myself here, they sure are pretty. Lots of eye candy going on.
     
  8. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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    I'll put it in point form. You decide:

    Pro's for Mac
    -Mac is stable and fast (good OS & system architecture)
    -It works out of the box
    -looks great
    -easy to use
    -excellent support

    Cons for Mac
    -can't upgrade easily
    -costs a lot relative to some PC's (unless you get a laptop, ie the 12" powerbook. Its a steal)
    -isn't compatible with much of the software you find on the net

    Pro's for PC
    -cheap, really really cheap if you know where to buy your parts
    -customizable & upgradeable. Pack it up with 2 gigs of RAM & you'll surely satisfy the windows beast
    -poor students have been known to pirate needed software & OS, saving them huge amounts of $$$$

    Con's
    -Windows is unstable & susceptible to bugs, even XP. There's no alternative OS which can handle 'art' unless you're only interested in blender3d, maya, etc, in which case use linux.
    -Parts are sometimes unreliable. Read different reviews before you buy
    -limited support
    -noisy compared to mac

    Basically, if you have the money, buy a mac (powerbook if you can). You'll love it. If not, buy a PC and have a geek friend help you get it working the way you want. Chances are you'll love it almost as much...as long as you don't disturb it.

    As for why art students seem to like the Mac? Its pretty and obedient and doesn't break. Your type are manic control freaks

    Myself - I use a PC because it fits the mold of my own prodigal son. Strong, feral, customizable, disobedient and in need of a spanking so that I can sex it up with a different OS depending on my mood. I'm not an art student.
     
  9. Rick Valued Senior Member

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    Whitewolf,

    You should go for a MAC,its better for Artists.Take my word for it.My cousin sister had it,she enjoyed the experience with it thoroughly.

    bye!
     
  10. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    if you can afford the software.
     
  11. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    I don't know about one of the con's of the PC. Pixar's Renderman although capable of running on the MAC is also designed to run with clusters of Linux built machines (Notibly Red Hat) and judging by the output of their animated CGI films, the suggestion is that such machines can be used for Art successfully.

    Although you are right in suggesting that Professional Artists and Designers tend to use MAC, originally it was due to 24-bit hardware being more effectively programmed than the first 32-bit attempts and software programming for 16-bit peripherals.
    However the current evolution of the PC is seeing 64-bit and higher transfer rates that again are going to have the teething problems of being correctly interfaced with but once worked out will prove to be better machines for the task. (But then you've still the point that the softwares where the development is needed)
     
  12. Avatar smoking revolver Valued Senior Member

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    MAC software costs insane ammounts of money while any pc software can be gotten for free

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  13. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    I agree with Avatar because I've downloaded a whole bunch of free software for my PC from the net but you can't find that for the Mac.
     
  14. dsdsds Valued Senior Member

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    Has anyone else had bad experiences with DELL? Dell offers amazing deals. I've looked all over and DELL is pretty competative even when comparing it with build-it-yourself systems. I've often wondered about the quality of the Motherboards they use.
     
  15. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

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    I suppose with companies like DELL and HP you can get a machine, warranty and support. (well attempt to get support) and you might find them cheap due to their method of batch building.

    However there are other companies out there that specialise in batch building, they have sites that allow you to pick what components you want and they create the system for you to your specifications. They sometimes take a little time to build and send (12-18 days) but you can get all the warranty's and support you would of had with DELL or HP.

    Most of the time I don't really bother with the Warranty if something works, purely because the likelihood of something well manufactured breaking down is limited (although not impossible) and sometimes the warranty's cost more than just buying another one of the same type a little in the future.
     
  16. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    That is why I custom built my own. That way I know exactly what I have and how good it is. It isn't hard to build one yourself , it just takes a little time and patientce.
     
  17. EoDEo Registered Senior Member

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    Mac pros=Eye Candy, (system stability- maybe)
    Mac cons= everything else

    PC cons- You get to pick parts that will malfunction. Its like election you get to vote witch guy you don’t trust the least.

    all softvare works and is made for pc. mac software is like a legacy compatibility for older people who feel the need to get their nostalgic toy in a newer wrapper.

    # of macs I used and bought - 0
    # of PCs/PC parts I used and bought - countless

    and would I go through the fuss all over again? for art and games? in a blink.

    p.s. mac is proly not as bad as I gave it credit for
    p.p.s. PC aren’t the 5% fuss I made it look like.

    p.p.p.s. I use WinXP and I don’t bother to restart it anymore. I turn my comp on do my stuff during day, download stuff during night, and it turn itself off when done. Tomorrow I turn it back on and all's ok. its stable 99,9% of the time. I use(d) 3ds Max 1-6 and Photoshop 4-7-CS. I had to restart Win98SE/Me like 300times a min for it to work fine - for comparison.
     
  18. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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    Passing judgement on something you haven't even tried..

    \\Maybe compared to what you're used to (erm..98,SE, ME--all great operating systems), XP is 'stable.' But I mean come on-- integrating a gui and IE into the core OS?! Anybody can snap a few parts together and stick them in the case, not just l337

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  19. whitewolf asleep under the juniper bush Registered Senior Member

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    I remember on school macs, an application would unexpectedly quit; why did that happen?
     
  20. Xerxes asdfghjkl Valued Senior Member

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    (1) Which Application?
    (2) Which OS version?

    A crash on mac is almost always due to poor programming of the application, not poorly allocated resources. Mac will never force you to 'increase the paging file size' just to keep an app from crashing.

    But if you personally feel that a mac is just as good as a pc, then why bring it to question? Go for the cheaper one, I'm serious.
     
  21. Closet Philosopher Off to Laurentian University Registered Senior Member

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    Whitewolf, a lot fo people at my school are going nutty about Macs. I think it is mostly because they look slekk, sexy and some even have snap-on colour changers. The eye candy aspect of a Mac tend to appeal to artists.

    If you get a well built PC with an Athlon precessor and a very compatible Motherboard and Video Card and a good version of XP or Linux, then your system will be just as stable as a Mac. There is some prestige (sp?) that comes with owning a Mac. THe look good and cost more than they have to.

    I suggest getting a PC with solid components. Make sure there is a good Athlon processor. It also depends on what you plan to do with the computer. Will you be just using it for small apps or will you need a lot of RAM for large art programs (and video editing and such)?

    If you tell me what you want to use it for and how much money you have, then I can pick out a few example computers and you can tell me what you think.
     
  22. whitewolf asleep under the juniper bush Registered Senior Member

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    Illustrator, don't remember which version; latest, I guess (it's college

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    Mac OS X.

    I never bothered to ask why things happen this way and not the other way on a Mac, because things were hectic enough with the printer and the zip discs (during the finals month!). So I'm curious now. It's not decided yet, really.

    Uh, the usual arts stuff. The ones I know so far are Illustrator, Photoshop, Quark, and there are many others coming. Thing is, I don't really know which ones I'll need in particular, it all depends on the school program and new courses are being added at the speed of light. Uh, I, as an illustrator, might not require any sophisticated animation programs, but I do want to try my hand at it (and perhaps something might happen). Thing is, I really want this comp to last me for as long as possible.

    What I want to spend is about 1500. I saw two Macs cheaper and at about that price, but most of them are way out of my reach.

    Uh, someone at a store estimated that putting a computer together by myself that would fit my needs would cost about as much as buying it all completed. If you suggest buying from Chinese guys.... Eeeeh....
     
  23. cosmictraveler Be kind to yourself always. Valued Senior Member

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    "Uh, someone at a store estimated that putting a computer together by myself that would fit my needs would cost about as much as buying it all completed."

    But you would have a much better PC and you would gain more knowledge about PC's. You can get much better hardware than any manufacturer, Dell, H.P. ETC., will sell you and cheaper if you just look around and take the time to find the best prices available. I bought 4 sticks of 512 MB of DDR ram for 50.00 each at a great place and a good deal.
     
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