View Full Version : Propaganda is everywhere!
Pollux V
09-14-01, 06:26 PM
After the horror of what happened in New York everything I see is just making me sick! Every single channel on television reporting news is corrupt, and is only strengthening the propaganda (is that how you spell it?) machine of the US government. Do we really know that things are horrible, really horrible in Afghanistan? How do we know that people in Iraq didn't rally like we have in wake after this disaster? Why? Because the government doesn't let agencies report it, they use it for their own ends and its making me sick! These elites are horrible, horrible people. We look the same as these terrorists in Iraq because we havent declared war on anyone since World War Two. Can you imagine it? F-16's coming out of nowhere, dropping bombs, and turning back? Right into the city you live in? Killing hundreds maybe thousands of people. Also I'd bet money that the USAF shot down that last airliner, it was the rational thing to do but they don't want to be known as butchers, or quick-decision makers.
Everything's so messed up I don't know whats what. On TV they're trying to make the US look mighty and powerful while immediately focusing on muslims to be the culprits, which is still slightly doubtful in my mind. We haven't heard the tapes from those cockpits. How do we know they're the real ones? My extreme conspiracy-theory side of me thinks that the government itself is the one behind this WHOLE DAMN THING. They could've crashed those planes into the pentagram-er-pentagon and the wtc just to unify the people into starting a war with muslims-yes-muslims, for no other reason than that they're different than us. IT IS POSSIBLE. Didn't you notice that IMMEDIATELY after the planes ran into the wtc's and they collapsed the senators and representatives were naming palestinians and muslims as the culprits? We were pointing the finger into the darkness! We had no f***ing idea who did this, yet immediately we point to the muslims. That happened at the oklahoma city bombing, too. Makes me sick! We should've had an open idea of who it had been.
rrrrr, propaganda!
Bebelina
09-14-01, 07:19 PM
Things are not what they seem.
The propaganda-machine is running with full engine. To gain more power to those who fear losing it, but it will fail.
I can feel it.
I trust in humanity and itīs ability to chose the compassionate future.
This is the emperors new clothes and everybody can see it.
:)
Banshee
09-15-01, 12:02 PM
Shrike, I agree with you on this.
It was too easy to point at Afghanistan and Bin Laden. I also think there is more then they will let us know.
I follow the News here in the Netherlands and I hear the most disturbing things.
America doesn't know who did this. They assume it was Bin Laden.
It could have been some other people.
What- or who ever it was, it was terrible, no words for this...
I think America has to be careful at who they point their finger, it can be so terribly wrong......
There is enough death now.
Please, let it stop.
Ladies,
Calm down and continue to watch.
KalvinB
09-16-01, 03:41 AM
The US has been watching Bin Laden for years. They aren't assuming. It may have been "too easy" but maybe that's because it's a political trap. Maybe we're going to be dragged into the middle of a war and then abandoned. Maybe it's all because we dropped out of the Kyoto Treaty...maybe you're all getting paranoid and that's why the US is spoonfeeding us.
We are so freakin predictable.
Regardless, we're going to war and for the next several months or maybe some years it's going to suck.
We're going after terrorism and those who harbor them. That includes Afganistan and Bin Laden.
They're not going to take a peaceful beating so prepare yourself.
Ben
Banshee
09-16-01, 11:22 AM
I am afraid Kalvin is right!!
I hope not, no war....
01001010
09-16-01, 12:07 PM
i beleive there will be a war, but it won't be as bad as a WorldWar.
Banshee
09-16-01, 12:30 PM
Maybe worse......
If it becomes war, it will be the last for this tortured Earth.
Earth and Nature will not take everything humans do. There is an end to this all.
For us all???
Silent Bob
09-16-01, 02:44 PM
Perhaps a little trust in our government is in order. I know it's hard because there is so many secrets. America does have a much better track record than, as far as I know, most other countries. The ideas you present leave little movtive on the goverments part. It's personally very easy to believe that this was a work of Bin laden. After watching a intervew with him (he got a ABC reporter and his cronies filmed a intervew and sent it to America.) It's not to hard to believe. Don't believe everything the Anchors tell you, they have a way of making things sound the way they aren't to build a customer base. Yes, technically we'll have a war, but it's not a war like we know. We might even forget it's happening, because it'll be so much plain intellegance based.
Pollux V
09-16-01, 03:29 PM
This is all making me sick! Americans are forgetting that bush wants to give money to churches and go against everything the constitution was supposed to protect against and also ignore the signs that Earth is getting warmer because of pollution. Think of it this way. Because he has taken no action to even limit pollution he is killing billions or even trillions of children yet to be born that will contract horrible cancers because of the ozone layer. PEOPLE ARE FORGETTING HOW HORRIBLE OUR PRESIDENT IS!
If he (or his advisors) do well in this war he could be re-elected. What would we do then?
I'm also worried about the draft. If this drags itself out I could be old enough to actually BE drafted. These people, the terrorists, are not a force to be underestimated. I fear they already have been.
Shrike,
Stay in school. Join the Peace Corps. You could contribute by serving those who are suffering. You need not kill to serve a cause. People over their need your help. The more I study Afghanistan, the more I wish I could export a piece of American paradise to those poor surfs.
KalvinB
09-16-01, 05:49 PM
Get your facts straight Shrike. It's global climate change, not global cooling and not global warming. And there's nothing we can do about it. Unless you want to plug volcanos and stop the sun from emiting excess radiation every so often. The earth was a lot hotter BEFORE technology came around. But you already know that I suppose because you would actually research both sides before spouting off about what a horrible person Bush is.
If you don't want to be drafted, run away to Canada.
If there is a huge war and if Bush does well, he deserves to be reelected. I'd hate to think what Al Gore would be doing if he were President.
Ben
I'll tell you what Al Gore would be doing. He'd be acting with a cool head, and not try to force a war on to us. He would think before he would act, and he wouldn't act like a petulant 5 year old in K-mart. Sure even the best of heads burst during such an event but all Bush wants is war. It's a cancerous disease.
Bush = Bad
Gore = Good
Silent Bob
09-16-01, 06:48 PM
As presidant, what actions would you take? What method would you use? I'm interested to hear.
Stryder
09-16-01, 06:58 PM
I'm notpushing for a bad guys side, but I will say a justice system would percieve someone innocent until proven guilty.
So it would be best trying to have a level head before making a hastey inserection. You would have to get a team to talk directly to the people that supposedly caused this event, and an international team at that since everybody has been pulled into it.
I'm sure if they did it they will either not want to talk, or run, which will give a clue, And if they speak to you they would give a clue as to wether they are guilty or innocent.
So I would suggest a team from something like NATO get together, of course they should be tracked incase they are seized, and they would have to know if they are seized then they should kiss their buttocks goodbye, because something would be launched on their position. (Acting like a dead mans switch)
Stryderunknown,
That sounds like a hostage situation in the making. I'm game for the original recipe...extra crispy terrorist.
Stryder
09-16-01, 08:36 PM
It's not a hostage situation, s I said your guys are tracked, and if they are captured they can be brought back because they have a targetting lock on them acting like a deadmans switch, namely if they aren't set free, you blow the funk out of that location. I know you lose a few of your own, but you mean business.
Banshee
09-17-01, 11:06 AM
Guy's, there is no solution for this........
This was so cruel, it is not even the good word, I don't have the words for this.
It still makes me cry, all that victims, all innocent.
Why???
tmegeney
09-17-01, 03:13 PM
Okay boys and girls,
Lets get this straight okay.
Does America spread propaganda? Oh yeah!
Do they know for sure if Osama Bin Laden was responsible for this attack? We'll never know.
Should America go after this guy? YES!! Regardless of whether he was responsible for this attack, he has been responsible for planning other attacts and uttering what essentially are death threats against a foreign power.
He has acted in support of terrorism and any terrorist activities need to be squashed. That includes terrorism in Israel, Palestine, West Bank, Northern Ireland, Eire, Russia, Iraq, the US and every country on Earth. It also includes economic terrorism, which the US is so good at. Economic terrorism is even more insidious then some as it doesn't kill directly only indirectly. Anyone who doesn't believe that the US uses economic terrorism should take a look at the respective policies of the United States and Canada in reference to Cuba.
Once this is done though, I really hope that everyone stands and takes notice of the US policies in the Middle East. This is the second time that they are going to go to war with their one-time allies there. Its time that they just left those poor impoverished countries in peace and supplied medical and food aid, not military might.
But please people, if you can see past the propoganda, it doesn't work. There is really no need to rattle on about this or that. Take everything with a grain of salt and view as many sources of info as possible.
Terry
Pollux V
09-21-01, 05:33 PM
You guys should read up on the propaganda model-its written by these two guys whose last names are Herman and Chomsky. It will convince you about what I've argued. We can't find or use any other sources, because the military is the only one and they can choose to show us whatever they want.
thecurly1
09-21-01, 05:40 PM
Patriotism is not propaganda.
These are real emotions, the government never ordered that Old Glory be hung in every window, and displayed in prominence.
The government didn't cue the newsanchors to cry on camera, or the family members and firefighters to have their hearts explode.
These aren't made up things, or orders from the top. This isn't propoganda sponsored by the United States government. Propaganda is a fake, or misrepresented information provided by the government.
If the US starts lying about whats happening in the war, with the exception of casulities and the situation itself, I belive that lying about where we are or friendly, or enemy troop movements is warented.
Becarefull in war, censorship is allowed by law.
thecurly1,
I agree that the firefighters heart's exploding, news anchor's crying, and flags in peoples windows are not fake. I agree that this tragedy has spurred much emotion. I do think, though, that this government and the economic rulers (companies are basically top-down tyrannies where the power is concentrated, and therefore the heads of huge companies wield extreme power in the country and the world) spread propaganda and use it in their own best interest, regardless of 'the people'. By propaganda I don't just mean lies, but also the hiding of truth, the asking of certain questions, the display of certain views and ideas but not others. The fact is the mainstream news is highly centralized (a few main networks) and all of these are top-down tyrannies. Therefore the power is concentrated into a few hands. To me mainstream journalists are like actors, and the segments that are put together for people are like movies. You can structure them to present certain ways of looking at an issue and spur certain emotions, as long as the viewers don't question what is presented, how it is presented, or the viewers simply trust your organization as 'Experts'. In my city (Tampa) we have a community radio station that is not run by corporations and is funded by listener sponsorship. I value 88.5 FM very highly. They are an affiliate station of Pacifica, and have real people and ask real questions. They are a breath of fresh air. I am not saying 'mainstream media' is evil. It is just nice to finally have other perspectives. I believe that plays a large part in freedom and democracy. I believe there would and should be much more diversity and more perspectives on the news in order to give the people food for thought, not the party line.
Banshee
09-22-01, 03:39 AM
It was never my meaning to insult any of you.
It is just that I am very afraid, this is going to get worse and worse.
I see television too, I am not crazy.
I do understand what you feel, I feel it too, don't you understand.
It doesn't matter if you live in America or anywhere else.
The attacks has had great impact to the whole world. What do you think was going through me when I saw all that people jump out of the windows.
I am so sorry, I could not look at it after a second.
I didn't believe my eyes at first.
But it were really people who jumped out of the windows.
And that damn camera's take it on film and show it over and over on television.
My whole body hurts for that people.
It doesn't matter to me where the people were coming from.
Or where they lived, in what country.
It was terrible, there are no words for this.
No words, only pain.
And not understand why.
MuliBoy
09-22-01, 10:27 PM
Ok. Am I right in assuming that Bush is doing better in popularity polls by now?
That the jokes about his stupidity has dwindled away?
Yes, it was a shocking attack. It felt utterly unreal and trying to fathom the pain and loss involved is beyond my capability.
But to me, the scariest part of the whole catastrophe has been seeing the war machine instantly roll into action. Good olīWW2 style propaganda and speeches all abound.
George W raising to the occasion. Nothing stimulates the economy as a good old fashioned war. Nothing makes the people trust their government as blowing away some godforsaken barbarians.
Oh yes, vietnamam wasnīt so popular, but look at Kuwait. Hippies and Pinkos are out of style.
I fear sorry for you few Americans that speak against this coming assault as the patriotism and bloodlust escalates.
Being a redneck rightwing fanatic seems to be the new cool in the near future US.
Scary stuff indeed. Ppl in america have shown such a gentle and caring side in the aftermath of the bombing. Sad to see that emotion drown out in the seemingly inevitable war that your government is dedicated to.
Well... didnīt expect things to get better before they got worse :(
Being a redneck rightwing fanatic seems to be the new cool in the near future US.
What do you expect? We human beings have to show our true color. The nature of a scorpion is....
Look at Pakistanis. They are doing the samething. And if this would have happened in Germany, the new third reich would have been born...all the browns would have been kicked out...
Welcome to Sciforum MuliBoy....
Banshee
09-23-01, 04:05 AM
I agree with you Kmguru.
If these attacks were happened in Germany, next to my country, then we should stay there with nothing, but feeling anger and wanting to get these damn terrorists who are left behind and were a help to these attacks.
Then Germany probably would not hesitate to announce war, because in Germany, the politicians are as bad as in every country. How much corruption by politicians is already come up in Germany and with this hate to moslims, I have to see what happens.
In my country, next to Germany, have been riots. To moslim people. I hate this.
The Netherlands is a good land to live in, but oh, why must these people always fight. Now are the moslims the target.
Where does it stop??
I hear of riotts every where in Europe. Against moslims. All of a sudden all moslims are bad people.
This is not right!!
The only thing I want to say is that I really hope there is not coming a war.
I do understand the American people who say that they want justice.
Of course you do, so do I...
But not a world war, I have such bad feelings, and they grow every day.
I am so afraid what will come of this, so afraid.
I would say it was high time to go after Osama Bin Laden. Even if he was not responcible for the WTC attack. He is responcible for the Cole incident, the barracks bombing, the root of the hostilities that occured in Somilia against US troops had its training in some of Bin Laden's "advisors" who taught them how to bing down aircraft. Before that no such incident had occured. And the are others in his string of accumplishments. These acts alone he should be hunted for. We have losts hundreds of citizens in the above mentioned attacks. Why should he recieve some kind of stay while we figure if he is also responcible for the WTC attack? Why such we give him more time to go cover his tracks and hide? He has already shown his colors and has shown by his actions that he deserves to be hunted and caught as much as any rabbit. And should the WTC attack be shown to also be of his planning and financing how many times can you punish him? surely not enough for every individual that died.
thecurly1
09-23-01, 01:06 PM
To MuliBoy:
Being from Sweden I'm increasingly suprised about you supposid knowledge about American politics and OUR president.
Was Sweden even in the Second World War? No, I don't think so.
Speeches and propaganda are two different things. None of what you have been seeing is propaganda.
Wars no longer stimulate the economy. The vast military-industrial complex no longer exists, for two reasons. The first being that wars aren't fought in WWII style. The military is already equipt with men and material, so that domestic production of them is limited in war. The second reason being that most Americans, aren't any longer employed by industrial/manufacturing industries. Instead they are employed by information, goods & services, or high-tech fields.
One of the major reasons why we left Vietnam is because we were hemmoraging money to fight. Remember the Gulf War in 1991? What happened in '92, a recession. This disproves any theory that all wars bring prosperity.
No one in any country has the slighest fraction of what we are going through right now. I didn't say that to offend everyone sticking with us, but instead those who are against us.
MuliBoy, you have a lot to learn about Americans.
Banshee
09-23-01, 01:49 PM
Maybe not every American is the same...
MuliBoy
09-23-01, 02:18 PM
Haha, well yeah didnīt you know we all live in America?
The whole western world excists in a state of americana.
We see the same talkshows, news and movies as you.
As for Sweden not being involved in ww2. I guess the sad truth of how many of ppl in power here in sweden were pro nazi havenīt been cabled out to the rest of the world. Oh yes, swedens fatcats were sure to stay on the good side of of the expected winners in that conflict. But as soon as the wind turned they quickly pulled down the swastikas in the dining room and crouched behind the flawed faccade of neutrality.
Yes, I live in sweden, but my roots are in the north of finland. My grandfather fought against the invading russians, and my parents have memories of hiding from sight as the planes flew over their farms. When the war was over my grandad burned all memorabilia from the conflict. There was no glory or reason in war then, and there is none now.
Terrorism is horrible and hits the innocent. But war is exactly the same thing, only in a much larger scale. It serves no purpose at all.
What will be the tally of this conflict?
Will there be any positive effects at all?
A new generation of anti-american fundamentalists with lucid memories of having foreign troops bombing their homes and killing their relatives. There is no such thing as a smartbomb.
As the thread topic was about propaganda I just tried to express my unease on how such a tragic catastrophe is being utilized by the state as a mean of gaining support. It is a known fact that war makes the ppl support the president and government. And that trust also stables economy and increases growth. This is not exclusive to americans but just the nature of the beast.
And I think itīs time ppl realised that everything they see or hear in the media is propaganda. Everything is presented through the perception of the presenter. This is my concern, that most of the populace are blind to the fact that they are being manipulated and strongly suggested what to think nonstop. Everywhere.
As a newbie here I hope Iīm not starting on the wrong foot :)
You all seem to be fine ppl and I thank you for your welcomes and am looking forward to numerous discussions on hopefully happier subjects.
Bebelina
09-23-01, 07:19 PM
You think youīre so smart MuliBoy...:rolleyes:
*LOVE* ;)
Bravo Muliboy! Well said. :)
Banshee
09-24-01, 03:45 AM
Ok, Muliboy.
Than I say it too...
Well said....
;)
And welcome on the sci forums.
Nice, another person from Sweden.
Do you and Bebelina know eachother?
:p
Godless
09-24-01, 06:04 AM
U.S. Considers Face Scanners for Airports - Paper
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - U.S. government and aviation officials are poised to begin using facial recognition systems to scan airport terminals for suspected terrorists, Monday's Washington Post reported.
The paper said a government committee appointed by Transportation Secretary Norman Mineta (news - web sites) to improve airport security, received a briefing on Thursday from the inventor of a leading facial recognition system, who said equipment could be installed and operating within a few weeks.
The scanner company's president told the committee the system could be linked to cameras at security checkpoints and transmit information about suspected terrorists to government officials via the Internet, creating what he called a ''nationwide shield.''
The committee, in a draft of a report to be presented to Mineta by Oct. 1, has included a recommendation to deploy such systems, the Post said, quoting a committee official.
Officials are considering Boston's Logan International Airport and another international airport for initial deployment of facial recognition systems.
``It's a technology that holds a tremendous amount of promise,'' the committee official said. ``We were impressed about how the technology works.''
The FaceIt system creates a digital map of a person's face, translating the contours into mathematical formulas that the company claims are nearly as distinguishing as a fingerprint. The ``faceprint'' is compared with a database of images.
Anonimity be damned, here in the states we are becoming Nazi Germany and everyone is blind by the fact. Check this out;
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE5/
As traditionally my post are always long, but hey!! I've got lots to say, lol.
Check this out!!.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/
well that's all for now, but keep your eyes open, look at how we are loosing our Republic. The war is not "out there" it's here at home.
There are organizations that watchdog the media.
http://www.fair.org is the first that comes to mind. I'm sure that you can find others.
baaron
Here in Tampa I believe we were the first city to have this facial scanning technology tested (in the US). I believe they tried it at the superbowl with little succes, and then they implemented it in Ybor city (part of our downtown district). There have been a number of protests, people wearing paper bags over their heads, or shirts with drawings of a bare backside saying "scan this". I am afraid with the recent events on 9/11, the country may be more accepting of this "big brother" technology out of fear for their safety. I would tend to agree with Godless. This is not a good thing "for the people".
I read in a previous post that 'law abiding' citizens should have nothing to worry about, and that it would only be the people who have something to hide that should worry (I am sure these were not the exact words, but I think it is the general idea). I am very wary of trusting those in power, be it political or economical (government or capitalist). The point is that if they are allowed to implement such a system nationwide, then THEY will decide who warrants watching. Image if you are demonstrating and staging protests against capitalism (peacefully) or even publically raising deep thought provoking questions which question the political or economic leaders decisions or right to power, don't you think it would be in their best interest to monitor you and potentially 'take care of you'? I know it wouldn't be legal, but if it is done quietly and under wraps, who would know? Besides, in the interest of 'national security' they seem to be able to do just about anything. It reminds me of the time Hitler and the Nazis burned the Reichstag and blamed the Communists. The germans became worried for their safety (understandably) and before you knew it the country was under marshall law and Hitler had dictatorial power. The country didn't come out of that state until after the war, over ten years later! By the way, they had a republic before the Third Reich also - the Weimar Republic.
Banshee
09-24-01, 12:04 PM
Yes, correct.
That is what happened in Germany.
Nothing to add.
The Nazis took over USA? May be not...
Face scanners are OK ( every ATM has a camera) as long as it does not turn an innocent person to a killer. Knowing that the system is "almost" good, it should be treated as such and the activities behind the scene should be managed by professionals.
Basically, we are going to track a certain group of people such as any student coming from an Arab like country and track his whereabouts. When he comes close to an airport, crop duster, flight school, chemical factory, or any other risk area, an alarm bell will sound somewhere deep in a mountain, where banks of people sitting and watching movements of the suspects on a screen by "mapquest".
What we really need to do is have a GPS chip, embedded to the driver license or ID card that sends a signal as to your whereabouts at all times. Someday we will have a GPS chip and an ID marker injected into your body. Today, NORAD tracks foreign objects in the sky. Now their job will be to track foreign people on USA soil. Neat idea.
MuliBoy
09-24-01, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by Banshee
Do you and Bebelina know eachother?
Yes. We know each other quite well...
I am her personal mushroom picker :)
Nice to meet yall :)
On the subject of surveilance, I saw "enemy of the state" for the first time yesterday. Great movie.
Having been suspiciously minded towards authorities all my life nothing in the movie felt like an eyeopener. What truly freaks me out though is the thought of webcams in public bathrooms. I canīt use a booth without checking for a hidden camera first.
That is really one of the most disturbing novelties in this IT-society :D
This is just the tip of the iceberg. Before you know it, as you are born, your DNA will be scanned. If you want a child, there will be DNA screening. They are happening and will continue.
An old story in India goes like this. A group of Aryans (Indians) and the Chinese, left their respective planets from the constellation of Mizar (a binary star system) for a new world and settled down on earth many thousand years ago. They were anti-technologists who kept only one instrument with them - a tricorder to catalog the medicinal properties of earth's plant life which is recorded in the third Veda book.
Their planets were so gleaming with steel and concrete that when they reached on earth, they got too emotional and wrote their first observations in Rig-Veda.
May be we are coming full circle.
Godless
09-25-01, 12:21 AM
Nope I don't think it's a good idea for a goverment to keep track of every citizen, "that's not freedom" Yes I do understand they will start with foreing people however, the majority of these people come here to be free, not spyied upon just as their own goverments have done. However how about profiling, first foreingners then what? religious views? "that's not freedom" Osama Bin Landen said he would change America, by what I see, "he already has!!"
We should not loose our civil liberties, this is what makes America, I would accept tighter security in Airports, Train stations, Bus stations, in general any form of public traveling. I would also support a tighter watch of our borders, however I don't support to loose Habeas Corpus, nor unreasonable searches, just cause you look "arabic" I'm hispanic, I look arabic.
And no I don't expect an Attica, nor a 1994 Orson Orwel movie version of the future either. At least not in my lifetime.
Nor do I support the goverment to be reading my e-mails, nor wathc just were I surf, nor do I support any infrigement upon my basic right of privacy!! "that's not freedom either"
Who has gained the most from this attack? I see the US goverment becoming so powerful these last two weeks, that I would not dare say, that some how we were involved in these attrocities in NY & Washington. The NSA is a very powerful entity in this country, they had to know these individuals were in this country. Also if I know of a criminal, and know he's about to commit a crime, are't I as quilty as the perpertrators after the crime has been commited? If I don't do nothing to prevent it.
machaon
09-25-01, 01:48 AM
Please understand that the US government was so quick to point fingers because they were in no way surprised by the attack. In fact, they were expecting it. The government did not randomly point fingers. Events of the scale of the recent bombings require resources. The government is very adept at monitering resources. The list of people and/organizations who could have had the resources to pull off the wtc bombings is very short indeed. However, that does not mean that the government has not seized the oppurtunity to instill fear among Americans in an effort to further its own agenda. The governments message is clear. Fear the terrorist. Fear the Arabs. Do not fear the fact that your personal freedoms are being plundered. Do not fear the fact that the media is bottle feeding Americans lies. The federal government will make everything all right. Just trust the government and everything will be ok and you will be safe again. The government will let us know when it is safe to leave our homes and go for a walk. The government will let us know when it is safe to turn off the surveillance cameras in our homes. The government will remove all terrorist insurgants in your community.(those who do not consent to the search and seizure of personal property that may contain "secrets" against the government). If we are lucky a federal agents may be assigned a post in every public restroom to insure that no secret plans can be constructed by "terrorist" to jeopardize your safety. Of course money is dangerous too. We will have to discard our current currency and opt for cards with magnetic strips that contain all our financial records. The government can then track every purchase you make and determine if you are a "terrorist" or not. The government will keep America free at ANY cost. And if you are not willing to pay the price with your personal liberties, then you MUST have something to hide..........
Banshee
09-25-01, 03:11 AM
People, listen.
This is just a question, ok???
No picking on me, just a question, I heard this on television, yesterday.
What is this talking about bush sending money to Pakistan to solve their debts to other countries, so Pakistan will sure be a good friend in an eventually war????
The population of Pakistan is not quite happy with this. They demonstrate, because they want to fight America.
So, if the government of Pakistan say's ok, we are the allies of America, but the population of the country does not, what then??
You think the government of Pakistan can force their people to fight America??
All of them??
I guess not.
Why did bush do this??
No throwing at me, I am on the side of you, not the side of the enemy.
Don't forget that.
This was a question.
Who will give an answer, without being angry at me....
Thank you.
By the way, off-topic, MuliBoy, personal mushroom picker?? I need one too, can I join??
;)
Why did bush do this??
There are two sides to the story. The negetive side of me says that he did not have a choice and that the money will not produce any good will because paying the debt does not change the quality of life of avarage pakistanis the next morning.
My positive side says that, hopefully the Pakistani Government can take a proactive spin and work with the people, that is what we in America expect. But it is a big BUT. - there needs to be a comprehensive formula.
How smart Bush cabinet is, we will find out soon.
Banshee
09-25-01, 01:13 PM
Kmguru, I hope that bushes cabinet is worth your trust.
I mean it really.
The bad feeling does not go.
It points in your, America's, direction.
Maybe I am wrong, this time.
For once...
Please, let me be wrong here.
I have the same bad feeling Banshee. I hope that feeling is just jitters. Even though I am optimistic, I am not stupid. I am going to hedge by bets by preparing for the WWIII, in the next 10 years. For the next two years, I suggest, have plenty of food and medical supplies in case there is a major disruption in the services. Next time, the terrorist attacks will not be limited to USA.
If there is another major incident here, I have a feeling , we will level Afganistan into a plain.
Godless
09-26-01, 12:41 AM
If you own a home, buy gas, if you have land, store water, keep your guns, and be like a Texan, "shoot first, then ask questions" I on the other hand am pretty bad shape, no home, I live in appartment, plenty of food, however I live alone, it goes rotten quickly, I do expect food prizes to rise, I also believe gas prises will soar.
Will see, keep your head, and hold your guns!!.
Banshee
09-26-01, 03:38 AM
Maybe we should make some propaganda to WORLD PEACE then!!
If the feeling gets worse and worse, I tell you, be careful...
Sometimes I am wrong, most of the time I am not.
The next attack will come yes, but not in America.
I agree on that with Kmguru...
I think Europe is next...
Let us all hope it will not happen, please!
It is the only thing to do.
However, Afghanistan changed in a plane, makes me laugh.
Imagine...It is not a great country, maybe it fits in a large plane..
Haha, sorry, but think of it, Afghanistan as a plane, yeah, with enough torture for Bin Laden to be scared the rest of his pathetic life..
This is outrageous, I do not have to say such things, I may not.
I am sorry, but imagining it, it is really good..
;) :p
VogueState
09-26-01, 11:09 AM
Of course there is propaganda. Like any other powerful organization, the U.S. government has interests, interests which are well-backed and well-financed. Like any other government, it has people, citizens, subjects, whatever.
Propaganda, btw, is spreading information designed to manipulate people and promote a doctrine or a cause. It does not necessarily have to be false information, just information intended to convince people to think a certain way. People are also easier to manipulate when they're in fear. America does not engage in wholesale fear manufacturing, because it is not an oppressive regime (for the most part); but events like last week's that cause fear to generate itself are a massive opportunity for pushing those interests that We, the American people, would otherwise dismiss off the bat.
Be on the lookout for calls to restrict your freedom in the time to come. Hey, you're scared. You don't really need the right to protect your speech with cryptography, do ya? Nor the right to own firearms ... heck, you wouldn't mind letting a few real nice men from this federal agency come in and look around, do you? Just to make sure everything is OK.
The U.S. has wanted a war in Afghanistan for some time now. Thanks to the WTC incident, whoever is behind it, now they've got it. I hope their heads (and hearts) are at least within walking distance of the right place ...
VS,
<i>"The U.S. has wanted a war in Afghanistan for some time now."</i>
I need you to explain that assumption to me. I have yet to hear a call for war in Afghanistan.
Somewhere I read, we were talking about Afghanistan in July...
Terrorists may strike Europe next with the intent to disrupt the coalition. Then will come our turn unless we get them first.
Go... George... Go...
Banshee
09-26-01, 11:57 AM
Man, don't you do that.
I dislike that bush so...
And now I hear this, USA was planning to attack Afghanistan?
It gets worse and worse...
You see...
Go down bush...Go down...
I am sorry for all Americans, but this, no, I do not take it that he already planned to attack Afghanistan.
Man, if bush really planned this, it is bad, more bad than I thought
Is this true?
Really true??
I hope not.
Whatever, if they want war, it will be war.
No matter what we think.
A terrorists strike in Europe would only serve to strengthen the coalition. Any terrorist attack right now would galvanize world opinion. The radicals would be cutting their own throats if they did such a thing. As for Afghanistan, an attack now would bring on to them an international army, which is what will be required to extinguish the internal problems of that country.
Banshee,
<i>"It points in your, America's, direction."</i>
Hmm, I have a positive feeling about our future. Once again, we will succeed. If we do not, the whole world will suffer. Everyone's ship is tied to America's future. Pray that it does not sink.
I have a feeling UK will be the next victim. But then again, nothing could happen for a while. After the embassy bombing in Africa, we did bomb Osama's $10 tents with $80 million dollars worth missile. Then they waited for a long time to find weakness and strike back. Let us see this time.
This time, we are going to smoke them out.... :D
I wonder how much knowledge we are gathering by just taking our time and watching--Afghanistan in particular, the Middle East, asia, and Islam as a whole. There must be a lot of activity in the regions involved right now.
What do you think those super computers are for? Door stops? Ya, we have Terabytes of data. If KMart can have 92 Terabytes of data about everybody that shops there, imagine what the government has. And since one department does not talk to the other. We have that much 10 times over.
And, for those who go to KMart to find a sale item and find the self empty, tells you how well people use those data. Need I say more???
After the embassy bombing in Africa, we did bomb Osama's $10 tents with $80 million dollars worth missile. Then they waited for a long time to find weakness and strike back. Let us see this time.
This time, we are going to smoke them out....
So are you saying that this time we will use smoke bombs instead fo explosives? :D
MuliBoy
09-26-01, 04:25 PM
Lots of ppl gearing up for their MadMax debut? :D
Sure America will prevail (whatever that means). It is a time of growth for the empire isnīt it. Just a last great crusade in the name of the holy economy.
Gotta finish the last chapters in the tale of this civilization before moving on to the next thing.
Nothing to fear, youīre just part of history :D
Muliboy,
I am in the US Muliboy, and I would tend to agree with the apparant expansionist "produce, consume" Holy economy of America. I am tired of it. I don't feel the people have a real involvement in the political and economic decisions and activities, and I think it will get increasingly harder to be a disenter in the 'Empire' especially with this WAR battlecry. I have thought of moving to Norway or Sweden. Are things better in those areas, as far as politically and economically? Especially for an intellectual (scientist/philosopher/artist) - a lover of knowlege and wisdom. I am tired of using my abilities to serve the all-powerful profit motive. I would like to continue my education ( I have a BS in engineering currently, but would like to pursue philosophy or humanities in greater depth.) Can I take classes in English, or are they only in the native languages (I would expect they are in the native languages, but I can hope ;) )? Also, I have wondered what it would take to actually find a job there and move. I would be willing to contribute my mechanical engineering skills to the society, while I pursue my academic interest. Should I contact the Swedish/Norwegian embassy? How tough do you think it would be for me to find work their? (This goes for any Swede or Norwegian). It looks like people have to be citizens and members of a European Union and many other things. I know I have asked a lot of questions, but any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. :)
MuliBoy
09-26-01, 05:11 PM
Quaid. Iīm sorry to inform you that the production wheel is very much in effect here too. As I stated in a previous post we all live in the same state of mind.
Of course I am pushing it a bit, there are wonderful free ppl here just as there. But as far as politics go it all seems to work for the commerce and industry just like in all modern societies.
As for continuing your education here, I think that would pose no problem. There are more universities here than you can shake a stick at :)
Canīt see it would be too hard finding multilinguistic classes.
I donīt know much of the norwegian state of affairs, but getting a job here in sweden is stupendously easy when one has a decent personality and resumé. Being a engineer youīd get hired in no time. But hey if youīd rather study, do so.
Having lived in sweden and finland all my life I am quite eager to get out of here and broaden my horizons. Sick of sweden, but I guess it could be a interesting country to spend some time in. Itīs not like youīd be stuck here for good :)
Itīs definetly not a haven for libertarians. Mobmentality rules here just as everywhere. But as the trends are quite uncertain, hardly anybody has the balls to point fingers at anything :D
The crusade I mentioned is not just for americans. All of europe has their share of willing mercenaries :(
Godless
09-26-01, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Bowser
VS,
<i>"The U.S. has wanted a war in Afghanistan for some time now."</i>
I need you to explain that assumption to me. I have yet to hear a call for war in Afghanistan.
Assumptions? well quess again read this news!!.
http://www.indiareacts.com/Story33.htm
And if that's not enough for you read again here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_asia/newsid_1550000/1550366.stm
Assume this! this country want's a war, this country will do anything to get it's way, even play a covert part of the attacks on the US it'self.
Read this:http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ARTICLE5/index.html
Now I know what you thinking, it's a conspiracie thing right? wrong try again read the whole thing and re-read it again, and then remember how it was with the US before this attack.
Banshee
09-27-01, 02:36 AM
This morning there was a telephone call to our News station that there were placed BOMBS in four of the tunnels who lead to the big city's.
Two should go off at 8.00 and two should go off at 08.15.
Evacuation everywhere. The Netherlands is a pretty small country, but I guess all military and police they have, were at that tunnels at the time the bobs should explode.
They didn't explode...
What to make of this.
In the time the attack was mentioned to be, all police and military people were at the place of the bombs.
Not quite clever.
The rest of the land is without help then if something happens in a whole different place then they have told.
It could have been a set up.
So they could attack something else, because our dummy government or who the hell is responsible, sends the whole bunch to that tunnels where nothing happened.
This time.
It is not good here.
People are fighting.
Against Moslims.
No good.
You see where it leads to.
Bombs..
Well, I hope it stay's with this one 'funny joke'.
But I am afraid it is just the beginning.
And that is here, in Europe.
So you see, we are really 'supporting' the Americans, by fighting the Moslims.
My, my...
:confused:
Godless,
Those were interesting links. Thank you. I might print them. Certainly we cannot be without doubt, but, then again, we should examine the proposed changes that has caused so much concern. Please, pick apart that which brings to your mind the most concern:
Post the below everywhere...
*************************************************
http://cryptome.org/mata.htm
2nd Draft of DoJ Surveillance & Antiterrorism Bill
The Anti-Terrorism Act of 2001 (ATA) (Sep. 19, 2001)
[Originally called the Mobilization Against Terrorism Act (MATA).]
107TH CONGRESS
1ST SESSION
H.R. ______
To combat terrorism and defend the Nation against terrorist acts, and for other purposes.
_______________
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
September ___, 2001
_______________
A BILL
To combat terrorism and defend the Nation against terrorist acts, and for other purposes.
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
SEC. 1. SHORT TITLE.
This act may be cited as the "Anti-Terrorism Act of 2001."
SEC. 2. TABLE OF CONTENTS.
The following is the table of contents for this Act:
Sec. 1. Short title.
Sec. 2. Table of contents.
Sec. 3. Construction; severability.
Title I--INTELLIGENCE GATHERING
Subtitle A--Electronic Surveillance
Sec. 101. Modification of authorities relating to use of pen registers and trap and trace devices.
Sec. 102. Seizure of voice-mail messages pursuant to warrants.
Sec. 103. Authorized disclosure.
Sec. 104. Savings provision.
Sec. 105. Use of wiretap information from foreign governments.
Sec. 106. Interception of computer trespasser communications.
Sec. 107. Scope of subpoenas for records of electronic communications.
Sec. 108. Nationwide service of search warrants for electronic evidence.
Sec. 109. Clarification of scope.
Sec. 110. Emergency disclosure of electronic communications to protect life and limb.
Subtitle B--Foreign Intelligence Surveillance and Other Information
Sec. 151. Period of orders of electronic surveillance of non-United States persons under foreign intelligence surveillance.
Sec. 152. Multi-point authority.
Sec. 153. Foreign intelligence information.
Sec. 154. Foreign intelligence information sharing.
Sec. 155. Pen register and trap and trace authority.
Sec. 156. Business records.
Sec. 157. Miscellaneous national-security authorities.
Sec. 158. Disclosure of educational records.
Sec. 159. Presidential authority.
Title II--IMMIGRATION
Sec. 201. Definitions relating to terrorism.
Sec. 202. Mandatory detention of suspected terrorists.
Sec. 203. Habeas corpus and judicial review.
Sec. 204. Applicability.
Sec. 205. Multilateral co-operation against terrorists.
Sec. 206. Inter-agency data sharing.
Title III--CRIMINAL JUSTICE
Subtitle A-Substantive Criminal Law
Sec. 301. No statute of limitation for prosecuting terrorism offenses.
Sec. 302. Alternative maximum penalties for terrorism crimes.
Sec. 303. Penalties for terrorist conspiracies.
Sec. 304. Terrorism crimes as RICO predicates.
Sec. 305. Biological weapons.
Sec. 306. Support of terrorism through expert advice or assistance.
Sec. 307. Prohibition against harboring terrorists.
Sec. 308. Post-release supervision of terrorists.
Sec. 309. Definition.
Subtitle B-Criminal Procedure
Sec. 351. Single-jurisdiction search warrants for terrorism.
Sec. 352. Notice.
Sec. 353. DNA identification of terrorists.
Sec. 354. Grand jury matters.
Sec. 355. Extraterritoriality.
Sec. 356. Definition.
Title IV--FINANCIAL INFRASTRUCTURE
Sec. 401. Laundering the proceeds of terrorism.
Sec. 402. Material support for terrorism.
Sec. 403. Assets of terrorist organizations.
Sec. 404. Technical clarification relating to provision of material support to terrorism.
Sec. 405. Disclosure of tax information in terrorism and national-security investigations.
Sec. 406. Restraint of property subject to criminal forfeiture.
Sec. 407. Trade sanctions.
Sec. 408. Extraterritorial jurisdiction.
TITLE V--EMERGENCY AUTHORIZATIONS
Sec. 501. Office of Justice Programs.
Sec. 502. Attorney General's authority to pay rewards.
Sec. 503. Limited authority to pay overtime.
Sec. 504. Secretary of State's authority to pay rewards.
Sec. 505. Assistance to countries co-operating against international terrorism.
SEC. 3. CONSTRUCTION; SEVERABILITY.
Any provision of this Act held to be invalid or unenforceable by its terms, or as applied to any person or circumstance, shall be construed so as to give it the maximum effect permitted by law, unless such holding shall be one of utter invalidity or unenforceability, in which event such provision shall be deemed severable from this Act and shall not affect the remainder thereof or the application of such provision to other persons not similarly situated or to other, dissimilar circumstances.
TITLE I--INTELLIGENCE GATHERING
Subtitle A--Electronic Surveillance
SEC. 101. MODIFICATION OF AUTHORITIES RELATING TO USE OF PEN REGISTERS AND TRAP AND TRACE DEVICES.
(a) GENERAL LIMITATION ON USE BY GOVERNMENTAL AGENCIES- Section 3121(c) of title 18, United States Code, is amended-
(1) by inserting "or trap and trace device" after "pen register";
(2) by inserting ", routing, addressing," after "dialing"; and
(3) by striking "call processing" and inserting "the processing and transmitting of wire and electronic communications".
(b) ISSUANCE OF ORDERS-
(1) IN GENERAL- Subsection (a) of section 3123 of title 18, United States Code, is amended to read as follows:
"(a) IN GENERAL- (1) Upon an application made under section 3122(a)(1), the court shall enter an ex-parte order authorizing the installation and use of a pen register or trap and trace device anywhere within the United States, if the court finds that the attorney for the Government has certified to the court that the information likely to be obtained by such installation and use is relevant to an ongoing criminal investigation. The order shall, upon service thereof, apply to any person or entity providing wire or electronic communication service in the United States whose assistance may facilitate the execution of the order.
"(2) Upon an application made under section 3122(a)(2), the court shall enter an ex-parte order authorizing the installation and use of a pen register or trap and trace device within the jurisdiction of the court, if the court finds that the State law-enforcement or investigative officer has certified to the court that the information likely to be obtained by such installation and use is relevant to an ongoing criminal investigation.".
(2) CONTENTS OF ORDER- Subsection (b)(1) of section 3123 of title 18, United States Code, is amended-
(A) in subparagraph (A)--
(i) by inserting "or other facility" after "telephone line"; and
(ii) by inserting before the semicolon at the end "or applied"; and
(B) by striking subparagraph (C) and inserting the following new subparagraph (C):
"(C) the attributes of the communications to which the order applies, including the number or other identifier and, if known, the location of the telephone line or other facility to which the pen register or trap and trace device is to be attached or applied, and, in the case of an order authorizing installation and use of a trap and trace device under subsection (a)(2), the geographic limits of the order; and".
(3) NON-DISCLOSURE REQUIREMENTS- Subsection (d)(2) of section 3123 of title 18, United States Code, is amended-
(A) by inserting "or other facility" after "the line"; and
(B) by striking ", or who has been ordered by the court" and inserting "or applied, or who is obligated by the order".
(c) DEFINITIONS-
(1) COURT OF COMPETENT JURISDICTION- Paragraph (2) of section 3127 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by striking subparagraph (A) and inserting the following new subparagraph (A):
"(A) any district court of the United States (including a magistrate judge of such a court) or any United States Court of Appeals having jurisdiction over the offense being investigated; or".
(2) PEN REGISTER - Paragraph (3) of section 3127 of title 18, United States Code, is amended-
(A) by striking "electronic or other impulses" and all that follows through "is attached" and inserting "dialing, routing, addressing, or signaling information transmitted by an instrument or facility from which a wire or electronic communication is transmitted"; and
(B) by inserting "or process" after "device" each place it appears.
(3) TRAP AND TRACE DEVICE- Paragraph (4) of section 3127 of title 18, United States Code, is amended-
(A) by inserting "or process" after "a device"; and
(B) by striking "of an instrument" and all that follows through the end and inserting "or other dialing, routing, addressing, and signaling information reasonably likely to identify the source of a wire or electronic communication;".
SEC. 102. SEIZURE OF VOICE-MAIL MESSAGES PURSUANT TO WARRANTS.
Title 18, United States Code, is amended-
(1) in section 2510 -
(A) in subsection (1), by striking all the words after "commerce"; and
(B) in subsection (14), by inserting "wire or" after "transmission of"; and
(2) in section 2703(a) and (b)--
(A) by replacing "Contents of electronic" with "Contents of wire or electronic" every place it occurs;
(B) by replacing "contents of an electronic" with "contents of a wire or electronic" every place it occurs; and
(C) by replacing "any electronic" with "any wire or electronic" every place it occurs; and
(D) by replacing "communication," with "communication (including any electronic storage of such wire communication),".
SEC. 103. AUTHORIZED DISCLOSURE.
Section 2510(7) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding ", and (for purposes only of section 2517) any officer or employee of the executive branch of the federal government" after "such offenses".
SEC. 104. SAVINGS PROVISION.
Section 2511(2)(f) of title 18, United States Code, is amended-
(1) by replacing "or chapter 121" with ", chapter 121, or chapter 206"; and
(2) by replacing "wire and oral" with "wire, oral, and electronic".
SEC. 105. USE OF WIRETAP INFORMATION FROM FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS.
Chapter 119 of title 18, United States Code, is amended-
(1) by adding a new section 2514, as follows:
"2514. Use of extraterritorial interceptions by foreign governments.
"(1) Information lawfully received under United States law from the interception of wire, oral or electronic communications outside the United States by a foreign government or a person acting at the direction thereof-
"(a) without the knowing participation of any officer or employee of the United States or person acting at the direction thereof; or
"(b) with such participation, but under circumstances in which such interception would have been lawful if executed within the United States by such officer, employee, or person,
shall be admissible, and the United States may disclose the information (or derivative information therefrom) in any proceeding held under the authority of the United States or any state or political subdivision thereof.
"(2) Information described in subsection (1) the government alleges could affect the national security shall have no less protection than that afforded by law to confidential informants."; and
(2) in the chapter analysis, by inserting before the item relating to section 2515 the following:
"2514. Use of extraterritorial interceptions by foreign governments.".
SEC. 106. INTERCEPTION OF COMPUTER TRESPASSER COMMUNICATIONS.
Chapter 119 of title 18, United States Code, is amended-
(1) in section 2510-
(A) in subsection (17), by striking "and" at the end;
(B) in subsection (18), by replacing the period with a semi-colon; and
(C) by adding after subsection (18), two new subsections as follows:
"(19) `protected computer' has the meaning set forth in section 1030; and
"(20) `computer trespasser' means a person who accesses a protected computer without authorization and thus has no reasonable expectation of privacy in any communication transmitted to, through, or from the protected computer."; and
(2) in section 2511(2), by adding after paragraph (h) a new paragraph as follows:
"(i) It shall not be unlawful under this chapter for a person acting under color of law to intercept the wire or electronic communications of a computer trespasser, if-
"(A) the owner or operator of the protected computer authorizes the interception of the computer trespasser's communications on the protected computer;
"(B) the person acting under color of law is lawfully engaged in an investigation;
"(C) the person acting under color of law has reasonable grounds to believe that the contents of the computer trespasser's communications will be relevant to the investigation; and
"(D) such interception does not acquire communications other than those transmitted to or from the computer trespasser.".
SEC. 107. SCOPE OF SUBPOENAS FOR RECORDS OF ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS.
Section 2703(c)(1)(C) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--
(1) by replacing "name, address, local and long distance telephone toll billing records, telephone number or other subscriber number or identity, and length of service" with the following:
"(i) name;
"(ii) address;
"(iii) local and long distance telephone connection records, or records of session times and durations;
"(iv) length of service (including start date) and types of service utilized;
"(v) telephone or instrument number or other subscriber number or identity, including any temporarily assigned network address; and
"(vi) means and source of payment (including any credit card or bank account number)"; and
(2) by striking "and the types of services the subscriber or customer utilized," after "of a subscriber to or customer of such service,".
SEC. 108. NATIONWIDE SERVICE OF SEARCH WARRANTS FOR ELECTRONIC EVIDENCE.
Chapter 121 of title 18, United States Code, is amended-
(1) in section 2703, by striking "under the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure" every place it appears and inserting "using the procedures described in the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure by a court with jurisdiction over the offense under investigation"; and
(2) in section 2711--
(A) in paragraph (1), by striking "and";
(B) in paragraph (2), by replacing the period with "; and"; and
(C) by adding the following new paragraph at the end:
"(3) the term `court of competent jurisdiction' has the meaning assigned by section 3127, and includes any federal court within that definition, without geographic limitation.".
SEC. 109. CLARIFICATION OF SCOPE.
Section 2511(2) of title 18, United States Code, as amended by section 106(2) of this Act, is further amended by adding at the end a new paragraph as follows:
"(j) Nothing contained in section 631 of the Act of June 19, 1934 (47 U.S.C. 551) shall be deemed to restrict voluntary or obligatory disclosures of information pursuant to the provisions of this chapter, chapter 121, or chapter 206, except that such disclosures shall not include records revealing customer cable television viewing activity.".
SEC. 110. EMERGENCY DISCLOSURE OF ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS TO PROTECT LIFE AND LIMB.
(a) Section 2702 of Title 18, United States Code, is amended-
(1) by amending the heading to read, "Voluntary disclosure of customer communications or records";
(2) in subsection (a)(2)(B) by replacing the period with "; and";
(3) by adding after paragraph (a)(2) a new paragraph as follows:
"(3) a provider of remote computing service or electronic communication service to the public shall not knowingly divulge a record or other information pertaining to a subscriber to or customer of such service (not including the contents of communications covered by subsection (a)(1) or (a)(2)) to any governmental entity.";
(4) in subsection (b) by striking "Exceptions.-A person or entity" and inserting "Exceptions for disclosure of communications.-A provider described in subsection (a)";
(5) in paragraph (b)(6)--
(A) in clause (A)(ii), by striking "or";
(B) in subparagraph (B), by replacing the period with "; or";
(C) by inserting after subparagraph (B) a new subparagraph as follows:
"(C) if the provider reasonably believes that an emergency involving immediate danger of death or serious physical injury to any person requires disclosure of the information without delay."; and
(6) by adding after subsection (b) a new subsection as follows:
"(c) Exceptions for disclosure of customer records.-A provider described in subsection (a) may divulge a record or other information pertaining to a subscriber to or customer of such service (not including the contents of communications covered by subsection (a)(1) or (a)(2))--
(1) as otherwise authorized in section 2703;
(2) with the lawful consent of the customer or subscriber;
(3) as may be necessarily incident to the rendition of the service or to the protection of the rights or property of the provider of that service;
(4) to a governmental entity, if the provider reasonably believes that an emergency involving immediate danger of death or serious physical injury to any person justifies disclosure of the information; or
(5) to any person other than a governmental entity.".
(b) Section 2703 of title 18, United States Code, is amended--
(1) by amending the section heading to read, "Required disclosure of customer communications or records".
(2) by redesignating subsection (c)(2) as (c)(3);
(3) in subsection (c)(1)--
(A) by striking "(A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B) a provider of electronic communication service may" and inserting "A governmental entity may require a provider of electronic communication service or remote computing service to";
(B) by striking "covered by subsection (a) or (b) of this section) to any person other than a governmental entity." and inserting a close parenthesis;
(C) by striking "(B) A provider of electronic communication service or remote computing service shall disclose a record or other information pertaining to a subscriber to or customer of such service (not including the contents of communications covered by subsection (a) or (b) of this section) to a governmental entity";
(D) by redesignating subsection (C) as subsection (c)(2);
(E) by redesignating subsection (B)(i) as (A), (B)(ii) as (B), (B)(iii) as (C), (B)(iv) as (D), and (B)(v) as (E);
(F) in subsection (D) (formerly (B)(iv)) by striking the final period and inserting "; or";
(G) by inserting after subsection (D) (formerly (B)(iv)) the following subsection:
"(F) seeks information pursuant to subparagraph (2).".
Subtitle B--Foreign Intelligence Surveillance
and Other Information
SEC. 151. PERIOD OF ORDERS OF ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE OF NON-UNITED STATES PERSONS UNDER FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SURVEILLANCE.
(a) The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 is amended by adding "or an agent of a foreign power, as defined in section 101(b)(1)(A),"-
(1) in section 105(e)(1) (50 U.S.C. 1805(e)(1)), after "or (3),"; and
(2) in section 304(d)(1) (50 U.S.C. 1824(d)(1)), after "101(a),".
(b) Section 304(d)(1) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1824(d)(1)) is amended by replacing "forty-five" with "ninety."
SEC. 152. MULTI-POINT AUTHORITY.
Section 105(c)(2)(B) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1805(c)(2)(B)) is amended by inserting ", or, in circumstances where the Court finds that the actions of the target of the application may have the effect of thwarting the identification of a specified person, such other persons," after "specified person".
SEC. 153. FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE INFORMATION.
The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 is amended by replacing "that the" with "that a"--
(1) in section 104(a)(7)(B) (50 U.S.C. 1804(a)(7)(B)); and
(2) in section 303(a)(7)(B) (50 U.S.C. 1823(a)(7)(B)).
SEC. 154. FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE INFORMATION SHARING.
Notwithstanding any other provision of law, it shall be lawful for foreign intelligence information obtained as part of a criminal investigation (including, without limitation, information subject to Rule 6(e) of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure and information obtained pursuant to chapter 119 of title 18, United States Code) to be provided to any federal law-enforcement-, intelligence-, protective-, or national-defense personnel, or to any federal personnel responsible for administering the immigration laws of the United States.
SEC. 155. PEN REGISTER AND TRAP AND TRACE AUTHORITY.
Section 402(c) of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 (50 U.S.C. 1842(c)) is amended-
(1) at the end of paragraph (1), by adding "and";
(2) in paragraph (2)--
(A) by inserting "from the telephone line to which the pen register or trap and trace device is to be attached, or the communication instrument or device to be covered by the pen register or trap and trace device" after "obtained"; and
(B) by replacing all the matter after "General" with a period; and
(3) by striking paragraph (3).
SEC. 156. BUSINESS RECORDS.
The Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act of 1978 is amended-
(1) in section 501 (50 U.S.C. 1861), by amending the same to read as follows:
"SS 501. Administrative subpoenas.
"(a) In any investigation to gather foreign intelligence information or an investigation concerning international terrorism, which investigation is being conducted by the Federal Bureau of Investigation under such guidelines as the Attorney General may approve pursuant to Executive Order 12333 (or a successor order), the Attorney General may, by administrative subpoena, require the production of any tangible things (including books, records, papers, documents, and other items) that are relevant to the investigation.
"(b) A person who, in good faith, produces tangible things under a subpoena issued pursuant to this section shall not be liable to any other person for such production. Such production shall not be deemed to constitute a waiver of any privilege in any other proceeding or context."; and
(2) by striking section 502 (50 U.S.C. 1862).
SEC. 157. MISCELLANEOUS NATIONAL-SECURITY AUTHORITIES.
(a) Section 2709(b) of title 18, United States Code, is amended--
(1) by inserting "at Bureau headquarters or Special Agent in Charge in Bureau field offices" before ", may" the first place it occurs;
(2) in paragraph (1)--
(A) by replacing "the Director" and all that follows through "Director)" with "he";
(B) by inserting ", or electronic communication transactional records" after "toll billing records"; and
(C) by replacing "made that" and all that follows through the end with "made that the name, address, length of service, and toll billing records sought are relevant to an authorized foreign counterintelligence investigation; and"; and
(3) in paragraph (2)--
(A) by replacing "the Director" and all that follows through "Director)" with "he"; and
(B) by replacing "made that" and all that follows through the end with "made that the information sought is relevant to an authorized foreign counterintelligence investigation.".
(b) Section 1114(a)(5)(A) of Public Law 95-630 (12 U.S.C. 3414(a)(5)(A)) is amended--
(1) by inserting "in a position not lower than Deputy Assistant Director at Bureau headquarters or Special Agent in Charge in Bureau field offices" after "designee"; and
(2) by striking all the matter following "purposes" up to the period; and
(c) Section 624 of Public Law 90-321 (15 U.S.C. 1681u) is amended--
(1) in subsection (a)--
(A) by inserting "in a position not lower than Deputy Assistant Director at Bureau headquarters or Special Agent in Charge in Bureau field offices" after "designee" the first place it appears; and
(B) by replacing "writing that" and all that follows through the end with "writing that such information is necessary for the conduct of an authorized foreign counterintelligence investigation.";
(2) in subsection (b)--
(A) by inserting "(in a position not lower than Deputy Assistant Director at Bureau headquarters or Special Agent in Charge in Bureau field offices)" after "designee" the first place it appears; and
(B) by replacing "writing that" and all that follows through the end with "writing that such information is necessary for the conduct of an authorized foreign counterintelligence investigation."; and
(3) in subsection (c)--
(A) by inserting "(in a position not lower than Deputy Assistant Director at Bureau headquarters or Special Agent in Charge in Bureau field offices)" after "designee"; and
(B) by replacing "camera that" and all that follows through "States." with "camera that the consumer report is necessary for the conduct of an authorized foreign counterintelligence investigation.".
SEC. 158. DISCLOSURE OF EDUCATIONAL RECORDS.
(a) Section 408 of the National Education Statistics Act of 1994 (20 U.S.C. 9007) is amended by adding after subsection (b) a new subsection as follows:
"(c) Without regard to subsections (a) and (b), the Attorney General or the Secretary of Education (or any Federal officer or employee designated by either of them) may, upon determining that so doing can reasonably be expected to assist in investigating or preventing a Federal terrorism offense as defined in section 25 of title 18, United States Code, or domestic terrorism or international terrorism as defined in section 2331 of that title-
"(1) collect, through legal process or as otherwise authorized by law, reports, records, and information (including individually-identifiable information), in the Center's possession; and
(2) for official purposes, retain, disseminate, and use (including as evidence at trial or in other administrative or judicial proceedings) such reports, records, or information as otherwise authorized by law, consistent with such guidelines as the Attorney General may issue to protect confidentiality.
No person furnishing reports, records, or information pursuant to this subsection shall be liable to any other person for furnishing such information.".
(b) Section 444 of the General Education Provisions Act (20 U.S.C. 1232g), is amended by adding after subsection (i) a new subsection as follows:
"(j) Without regard to subsections (a) through (i) or any provision of State law, the Attorney General (or any Federal officer or employee designated by him) may, upon determining that so doing can reasonably be expected to assist in investigating or preventing a Federal terrorism offense as defined in section 25 of title 18, United States Code, or domestic terrorism or international terrorism as defined in section 2331 of that title-
"(1) collect education records and other information in the possession of an educational agency or institution; and
(2) for official purposes, retain, disseminate, and use (including as evidence at trial or in other administrative or judicial proceedings) such records or other information as otherwise authorized by law, consistent with such guidelines as the Attorney General may issue to protect confidentiality.
No person furnishing records or information pursuant to this subsection shall be liable to any other person for furnishing such information.".
SEC. 159. PRESIDENTIAL AUTHORITY.
Section 203 of Public Law 95-223 (50 U.S.C. 1702) is amended-
(1) at the end of subparagraph (a)(1)(A), by replacing "; and" with a comma and adding thereafter the following (flush to that subparagraph):
"by any person, or with respect to any property, subject to the jurisdiction of the United States;"
(2) in subparagraph (a)(1)(B)--
(A) by striking "by any person, or with respect to any property, subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.";
(B) by replacing "interest;" with "interest by any person, or with respect to any property, subject to the jurisdiction of the United States; and"; and
(C) by inserting ", block during the pendency of an investigation" after "investigate";
(3) at the end of paragraph (a)(1), by adding a new subparagraph as follows:
"(C) when the United States is engaged in armed hostilities or has been attacked by a foreign country or foreign nationals, confiscate any property, subject to the jurisdiction of the United States, of any foreign person, foreign organization, or foreign country that he determines has planned, authorized, aided, or engaged in such hostilities or attacks against the United States; and all right, title, and interest in any property so confiscated shall vest, when, as, and upon the terms directed by the President, in such agency or person as the President may designate from time, and upon such terms and conditions as the President may prescribe, such interest or property shall be held, used, administered, liquidated, sold, or otherwise dealt with in the interest of and for the benefit of the United States, and such designated agency or person may perform any and all acts incident to the accomplishment or furtherance of these purposes."; and
(4) by adding at the end a new subsection (c) as follows:
"(c) Classified information.--In any judicial review of a determination made under this section, if the determination was based on classified information (as defined in section 1(a) of the Classified Information Procedures Act, such information may be submitted to the reviewing court ex parte and in camera."
Title II--IMMIGRATION
SEC. 201. DEFINITIONS RELATING TO TERRORISM.
The Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 is amended-
(a) in Section 212(a)(3) (8 U.S.C. 1182)--
(1) in paragraph (B) -
(A) in clause (i) -
(i) by amending paragraph (IV) to read as follows:
"(IV) is a representative (as defined in clause (iv)) of : (a) a foreign terrorist organization, as designated by the Secretary under section 219, or (b) a political, social or other similar group whose public endorsement of acts of terrorist activity the Secretary has determined undermines U.S. efforts to reduce or eliminate terrorist activities, or";
(ii) in paragraph (V) by inserting "or" after the comma following "...should have known is a terrorist organization"; and
(iii) by adding new paragraphs (VI) and (VII) to read as follows:
"(VI) has used his or her position of prominence within any country to endorse or espouse terrorist activity, or persuade others to support terrorist activity or a foreign terrorist organization, in a way that the Secretary of State has determined undermines U.S. efforts to reduce or eliminate terrorist activities; or
(VII) is the spouse or child of an alien who is inadmissible under this section, if the activity causing the alien to be found inadmissible occurred within the last 5 years,";
(B) in clause (ii)--
(i) by inserting "it had been" before "committed in the United States"; and
(ii) by replacing "or firearm" with ", firearm, or other weapon or dangerous device";
(C) by amending clause (iii) to read as follows:
"(iii) Engage in terrorist activity defined
"As used in this chapter, the term "engage in terrorist activity" means, in an individual capacity or as a member of an organization--
"(I) to commit or to incite to commit, under circumstances indicating an intention to cause death or serious bodily injury, an act of terrorist activity;
"(II) to prepare or plan a terrorist activity;
"(III) to gather information on potential targets for terrorist activity;
"(III) to solicit funds or other things of value for terrorist activity or for any terrorist organization;
"(IV) to solicit any individual for membership in a terrorist organization, a government that supports terrorism, or to engage in a terrorist activity; or
"(V) otherwise to commit an act that the actor knows, or reasonably should know, affords material support (including, without limitation, a safe house, transportation, communications, funds, transfer of funds or other material financial benefit, false documentation or identification, weapons (including, without limitation, chemical, biological, and radiological weapons), explosives, or training), to any organization that the actor knows, or reasonably should know, is a terrorist organization, or to any individual whom the actor knows, or reasonably should know, has committed or plans to commit any terrorist activity.
"This clause shall not be construed to encompass any material support the alien affords to an individual who had previously committed terrorist activity if the alien establishes by clear and convincing evidence that such support was afforded only after that individual had permanently and publicly renounced and rejected the use of, and had ceased to commit or support, any terrorist activity."; and
(D) by adding a new clause after clause (iv) to read as follows:
"(v) Terrorist organization defined
"As used in clause (iii), the term "terrorist organization" means any organization-
"(I) designated or redesignated under section 219;
"(II) that commits or materially supports, or that has a significant subgroup that commits or materially supports, terrorist activity, regardless of any other activities conducted by the organization or its subgroups;
"(III) that intends to commit or materially support, or that has a significant subgroup that intends to commit or materially support, terrorist activity, regardless of any other activities conducted by the organization or its subgroups; or
"(IV) that has committed or materially supported, or that has a significant subgroup that has committed or materially supported, terrorist activity, regardless of any other activities conducted by the organization or its subgroups, unless the Secretary of State has determined in his sole discretion, after consultation with the Attorney General, that as of a date specified by the Secretary the organization shall not be considered a terrorist organization."; and
(2) by adding a new subparagraph (F) as follows:
"Any alien who the Secretary of State, after consultation with the Attorney General, or the Attorney General, after consultation with the Secretary of State, determines has been associated with a terrorist organization and intends while in the United States to engage solely, principally, or incidentally in activities that could endanger the welfare, safety, or security of the United States is inadmissible.";
(b) in Section 219(a) (8 U.S.C. 1189(a))--
(A) in subparagraph (1)(B), by inserting "or terrorism (as defined in section 140(d)(2) of the State Department Authorization Act, Public Law 100-204 (22 U.S.C. 2656f(d)(2)) or retains the capability and intent to engage in terrist activity or terrorism)" after "212(a)(3)(B))";
(B) in subparagraph (1)(C), by inserting "or terrorism" after "terrorist activity";
(C) by amending subparagraph (2)(A) to read as follows:
"(A) NOTICE.--
"(i) Seven days before making a designation under this subsection, the Secretary shall, by classified communication, notify the Speaker and Minority Leader of the House of Representatives, the President pro tempore, Majority Leader, and Minority Leader of the Senate, and the members of the relevant committees, in writing, of the intent to designate an organization under this subsection, together with the findings made under paragraph (1) with respect to that organization, and the factual basis therefor.
"(ii) The Secretary shall publish the designation in the Federal Register seven days after providing the notification under clause (i).";
(D) in clause (2)(B)(i), by replacing "subparagraph (A)" with "subparagraph (A)(ii)";
(E) in subparagraph (2)(C), by replacing "paragraph (2)" with "paragraph (2)(A)(i)";
(F) in subparagraph (3)(B), by replacing "subsection (c)" with "subsection (b)";
(G) in subparagraph (4)(B), by inserting after the first sentence the following:
"The Secretary also may redesignate such organization at the end of any 2-year redesignation period (but not sooner than 60 days prior to the termination of such period) for an additional 2-year period upon a finding that the relevant circumstances described in paragraph (1) still exist. Any redesignation shall be effective immediately following the end of the prior 2-year designation or redesignation period unless a different effective date is provided in such redesignation.";
(H) in subparagraph (6)(A),
(i) by inserting "or a redesignation made under paragraph (4)(B)" after "paragraph (1)";
(ii) in clause (i), by
(I) inserting "or redesignation" after "designation" the first time it appears; and
(II) striking "of the designation"; and
(iii) in clause (ii), by striking "of the designation";
(I) in subparagraph (6)(B), by
(i) replacing "through (4)" with "and (3)"; and
(ii) inserting the following new sentence at the end:
"Any revocation shall take effect on the date specified in the revocation or upon publication in the Federal Register if no effective date is specified.";
(J) in paragraph (7), by inserting ", or the revocation of a redesignation under paragraph (6)," after "paragraph (5) or (6)"; and
(K) in paragraph (8), by
(i) replacing "paragraph (1)(B)" with "paragraph (2)(B), or if a redesignation under this subsection has become effective under paragraph (4)(B)";
(ii) inserting "or an alien in a removal proceeding" after "criminal action"; and
(iii) inserting "or redesignation" before "as a defense".
SEC. 202. MANDATORY DETENTION OF SUSPECTED TERRORISTS.
Section 236 of the Immigration and Nationality Act is amended-
(1) by redesignating subsection (e) as (f) and by inserting before the same the following new subsection:
"(e) Detention of Terrorist Aliens.--
"(1) Custody.--The Attorney General shall take into custody any alien who is certified under paragraph (3).
"(2) Release.--The Attorney General shall maintain custody of any such alien until such alien is removed from the United States. Such custody shall be maintained irrespective of any relief from removal the alien may be eligible for or granted until the Attorney General deems such alien is no longer an alien who may be certified pursuant to paragraph (3).
"(3) Certification.--The Attorney General may certify an alien to be an alien he has reason to believe may commit, further, or facilitate acts described in section 237(a)(4)(A)(i), (A)(iii), or (B), or engage in any other activity that endangers the national security of the United States."
SEC. 203. HABEAS CORPUS AND JUDICIAL REVIEW.
Except as provided herein and notwithstanding any other provision of law, including section 2241 of title 28, United States Code, no court shall have jurisdiction to review, by habeas corpus petition or otherwise, any action taken, administrative proceeding brought, or determination made to detain an alien under section 202 of this Act; without regard to the place of detention, judicial review of the detention of such an alien is available only by habeas-corpus petition filed in the United States District Court for the District of Columbia.
SEC. 204. APPLICABILITY.
Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the amendments made by this title (other than the amendments made by sections 205 and 207, which shall apply to offenses committed on or after the date of enactment) shall apply to all aliens, regardless of whether any such aliens entered the United States before or after the date of the enactment of this Act, or whether any relevant activity by any such aliens occurred before or after such date, and shall apply to all past, pending, or future deportation, exclusion, removal, or other immigration proceedings.
SEC. 205. MULTILATERAL CO-OPERATION AGAINST TERRORISTS.
Section 222(f) of the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 is amended-
(A) by inserting ": (1)" after "except that"; and
(B) by inserting the following before the period at the end:
"and (2) the Secretary of State in his discretion and on the basis of reciprocity may provide to a foreign government information in the Department of State's computerized visa lookout database and, when necessary and appropriate, other records covered by this section related to information in the database:
(A) with regard to individual aliens, at any time on a case by case basis for the purpose of preventing, investigating or punishing, acts that would constitute a crime in the United States, including, but not limited to, terrorism or trafficking in controlled substances, persons or illicit weapons; or
(B) with regard to any or all aliens in the database, pursuant to such conditions as he shall establish in an agreement with another government in which that government agrees to use such information and records for the purposes described in paragraph (A) or otherwise to deny visas to persons who would be inadmissible to the United States."
SEC. 206. INTER-AGENCY DATA SHARING.
(a) Section 105 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1105), is amended-
(1) in the caption by adding "and Data Exchange" after "Officers";
(2) by designating all of section 105 as subsection (a);
(3) in subsection (a) as so designated, by inserting the words "and border" after the word "internal" in the second place that it appears; and
(4) by adding new subsections (b), (c), and (d) as follows:
"(b) The Attorney General and the Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation may provide the Department of State and the Service with access to the criminal history record information contained in the National Crime Information Center's (NCIC) Interstate Identification Index (NCIC-III), Wanted Persons File, and to any other files maintained by the National Crime Information Center that may be mutually agreed upon by the Attorney General and the agency to be provided access for the purpose of determining whether a visa applicant or applicant for admission has a criminal history record indexed in any such file.
(c) For purposes of administering this Section, the Department of State shall, prior to receiving access to National Crime Information Center data, promulgate final regulations to establish the conditions for the use of the information received from the Federal Bureau of Investigation, in order-
(1) to limit the redissemination of such information;
(2) to ensure that such information is used solely to determine whether to issue a visa to an individual;
(3) to ensure the security, confidentiality and destruction of such information; and
(4) to protect any privacy rights of individuals who are subjects of such information."
(b) Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit such authority as the Attorney General or the Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation may have pursuant to other law (and procedures thereunder) to provide access to the criminal history record information contained in the National Crime Information Center's (NCIC) Interstate Identification Index (NCIC-III), or to any other information maintained by the NCIC, to any Federal agency or officer authorized to enforce or administer the immigration laws of the United States for the purpose of such enforcement or administration, upon terms that are consistent with such other law.
Title III--CRIMINAL JUSTICE
Subtitle A-Substantive Criminal Law
SEC. 301. NO STATUTE OF LIMITATION FOR PROSECUTING TERRORISM OFFENSES.
(a) IN GENERAL.- Section 3286 of title 18, United States Code, is amended to read as follows:
"SS 3286. Terrorism offenses
"Notwithstanding any other provision of law, an indictment may be found or an information instituted for any Federal terrorism offense at any time without limitation.".
(b) CONFORMING AMENDMENT.-The analysis for chapter 213 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by amending the item relating to section 3286 to read as follows:
"3286. Terrorism offenses.".
(c) APPLICATION.--The amendments made by this section shall apply to the prosecution of any offense committed before, on, or after the date of enactment of this section.
SEC. 302. ALTERNATIVE MAXIMUM PENALTIES FOR TERRORISM CRIMES.
Section 3559 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding after subsection (d) the following new subsection:
"(e) Authorized terms of imprisonment for terrorism crimes. - A person convicted of any Federal terrorism offense may be sentenced to imprisonment for any term of years or for life, notwithstanding any maximum term of imprisonment specified in the law describing the offense. The authorization of imprisonment under this subsection is supplementary to, and does not limit, the availability of any other penalty authorized by the law describing the offense, including the death penalty, and does not limit the applicability of any mandatory minimum term of imprisonment, including any mandatory life term, provided by the law describing the offense.".
SEC. 303. PENALTIES FOR TERRORIST CONSPIRACIES.
Chapter 113B of title 18, United States Code, is amended-
(1) by inserting after section 2332b the following:
"SS 2332c. Attempts and conspiracies
"Any person who attempts or conspires to commit any Federal terrorism offense shall be subject to the same penalties as those prescribed for the offense, the commission of which was the object of the attempt or conspiracy."; and
(2) in the analysis for the chapter, by inserting after the item relating to section 2332b the following:
"2332c. Attempts and conspiracies.".
SEC. 304. TERRORISM CRIMES AS RICO PREDICATES.
Section 1961(1) of title 18, United States Code, is amended-
(1) by striking "or (F)" and inserting "(F)"; and
(2) by replacing "financial gain;" with "financial gain, or (G) any act that is indictable as a Federal terrorism offense;".
SEC. 305. BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS.
(a) Chapter 10 of title 18, United States Code is amended-
(1) in section 175-
(A) in subsection (b)-
(i) by striking, "section, the"and inserting "section - (1) the";
(ii) by striking "does not include" and inserting "includes";
(iii) by inserting "other than" after "system for"; and
(iv) by striking "purposes." and inserting the following: "purposes, and (2) the terms `biological agent' and `toxin' do not encompass any biological agent or toxin that is in its naturally-occurring environment, if the biological agent or toxin has not been cultivated, collected, or otherwise extracted from its natural source.";
(B) by redesignating subsection (b) as (c); and
(C) after subsection (a), by adding a new subsection as follows:
"(b) Additional offense.-Whoever knowingly possesses any biological agent, toxin, or delivery system of a type or in a quantity that, under the circumstances, is not reasonably justified by a prophylactic, protective or other peaceful purpose, shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both. Knowledge of whether the type or quantity of any biological agent, toxin, or delivery system is reasonably justified by a peaceful purpose is not an element of the offense.";
(2) after section 175a, by adding a new section as follows:
"SS 175b. Possession by restricted persons
"(a) No person described in section 922(g) shall ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any biological agent or toxin, or receive any biological agent or toxin that has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce, if the biological agent or toxin is listed as a `select agent' in subsection (j) of section 72.6 of title 42, Code of Federal Regulations, pursuant to section 511(d)(1) of the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996 (Public Law 104-132), and is not exempted under subsection (h) of such section 72.6, or appendix A of part 72 of such title; except that the term "select agent" does not include any such biological agent or toxin that is in its naturally-occurring environment, if the biological agent or toxin has not been cultivated, collected, or otherwise extracted from its natural source. The prohibition of this section shall also apply to an alien (other than an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence) who is a national of a country as to which the Secretary of State, pursuant to section 6(j) of the Export Administration Act (50 U.S.C. App. 2405(j)), section 620A of chapter 1 of part M of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 (22 U.S.C. 2371), or section 40(d) of chapter 3 of the Arms Export Control Act (22 U.S.C. 2780(d)), has made a determination (that remains in effect) that such country has repeatedly provided support for acts of international terrorism.
"(b) Whoever knowingly violates this section shall be fined as provided in this title, imprisoned not more than ten years, or both, but the prohibition contained in this section shall not apply with respect to any duly authorized governmental activity under title V of the National Security Act of 1947."; and
(3) in the chapter analysis, by inserting after the item relating to section 175a the following:
"175b. Possession by restricted persons.".
(b) The Anti-Terrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996 is amended by adding a new subsection after subsection 511 (42 U.S.C. 262 note) as follows:
"SS 511A. Regulation of biological agents posing national-security threat
"(a) IN GENERAL.--
"(1) LIST OF AGENTS POSING SECURITY THREAT.--The Secretary shall, through regulations promulgated under subsection (d), establish and maintain a list of those biological agents listed pursuant to section 511(d)(1) that he determines to be a national-security threat.
"(2.) CRITERIA.--In determining whether to include an agent on the list under paragraph (1), the Secretary shall-
"(A) consider the criteria specified in section 511(d)(1)(B)(i), and any other criteria that he determines to be appropriate; and
"(B) consult with scientific, intelligence, and military experts representing appropriate professional groups.
"(b) REGULATION OF BIOLOGICAL AGENTS POSING SECURITY THREAT.--The Secretary shall, through regulations promulgated under subsection (d), provide for the establishment and enforcement of standards and procedures governing the possession, use, and transfer of agents listed under subsection (a)(1) designed to protect public safety and national security, including safeguards to prevent access to such agents for use in domestic terrorism or international terrorism or for any other criminal purpose.
"(c) CIVIL MONEY PENALTIES.--A violation of a requirement imposed by regulation promulgated under this section shall be subject to a civil money penalty of up to $250,000.
"(d) REGULATIONS.--The Secretary shall promulgate regulations to carry out this section. The initial regulations implementing this section shall be issued as interim final regulations.
"(e) INAPPLICABILITY OF PAPERWORK REDUCTION ACT.--The provisions of the Paperwork Reduction Act (44 U.S.C. ch. 35) shall not apply to this section.
SEC. 306. SUPPORT OF TERRORISM THROUGH EXPERT ADVICE OR ASSISTANCE.
Section 2339A of title 18, United States Code, is amended-
(1) in subsection (a)--
(A) by striking "a violaton" and all that follows through "49" and inserting "any Federal terrorism offense"; and
(B) by replacing "violation," with "offense,"; and
(2) in subsection (b), by inserting "expert advice or assistance," after "training,".
SEC. 307. PROHIBITION AGAINST HARBORING TERRORISTS.
Section 792 of title 18, United States Code, is amended-
(1) by inserting "or a Federal terrorism offense," before "shall be fined"; and
(2) by inserting at the end: "There is extraterritorial Federal jurisdiction over any violation (including, without limitation, conspiracy or attempt) of this section. A violation of this section may be prosecuted in any Federal judicial district in which the underlying offense was committed, or in any other Federal judicial district as provided by law.".
SEC. 308. POST-RELEASE SUPERVISION OF TERRORISTS.
Section 3583 of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following:
"(j) Supervised release terms for terrorism offenses. - Notwithstanding subsection (b), the authorized terms of supervised release for any Federal terrorism offense are any term of years or life.".
SEC. 309. DEFINITION.
(a) Chapter 1 of title 18, United States Code, is amended-
(1) by adding after section 24 a new section as follows:
"SS 25. Federal terrorism offense defined
"As used in this title, the term `Federal terrorism offense' means a violation of, or an attempt or conspiracy to violate-
"(a) section 32 (relating to destruction of aircraft or aircraft facilities), 37 (relating to violence at international airports), 81 (relating to arson within special maritime and territorial jurisdiction), 175, 175b (relating to biological weapons), 229 (relating to chemical weapons), 351 (relating to congressional, cabinet, and Supreme Court assassination, kidnapping, and assault), 792 (relating to harboring terrorists), 831 (relating to nuclear materials), 842(m) or (n) (relating to plastic explosives), 844(e) (relating to certain bombings), 844(f) or (i) (relating to arson and bombing of certain property), 930(c), 956 (relating to conspiracy to injure property of a foreign government), 1030(a)(1), (a)(4), (a)(5)(A), or (a)(7) (relating to protection of computers), 1114 (relating to protection of officers and employees of the United States), 1116 (relating to murder or manslaughter of foreign officials, official guests, or internationally protected persons), 1203 (relating to hostage taking), 1361 (relating to injury of Government property or contracts), 1362 (relating to destruction of communication lines, stations, or systems), 1363 (relating to injury to buildings or property within special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States), 1366 (relating to destruction of an energy facility), 1751 (relating to Presidential and Presidential staff assassination, kidnapping, and assault), 1992, 2152 (relating to injury of fortifications, harbor defenses, or defensive sea areas), 2155 (relating to destruction of national defense materials, premises, or utilities), 2156 (relating to production of defective national defense materials, premises, or utilities), 2280 (relating to violence against maritime navigation), 2281 (relating to violence against maritime fixed platforms), 2332 (relating to certain homicides and other violence against United States nationals occurring outside of the United States), 2332a (relating to use of weapons of mass destruction), 2332b (relating to acts of terrorism transcending national boundaries), 2332c, 2339A (relating to providing material support to terrorists), 2339B (relating to providing material support to terrorist organizations), or 2340A (relating to torture);
"(b) section 236 (relating to sabotage of nuclear facilities or fuel) of the Atomic Energy Act of 1954 (42 U.S.C. 2284);
"(c) section 601 (relating to disclosure of identities of covert agents) of the National Security Act of 1947 (50 U.S.C. 421); or
"(d) section 46502 (relating to aircraft piracy), section 46504 (relating to interference with a flight crew), section 46505 (relating to carrying a weapon or explosive on aircraft), section 46506 (relating to application of certain criminal laws to acts on aircraft), or section 60123(b) (relating to destruction of interstate gas or hazardous liquid pipeline facility) of title 49."; and
(2) in the chapter analysis, by inserting after the item relating to section 24 the following:
"25. Federal terrorism offense defined.".
(b) Section 2332b(g)(5)(B) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by striking "is a violation" and all that follows through "title 49" and inserting "is a Federal terrorism offense".
Subtitle B-Criminal Procedure
SEC. 351. SINGLE-JURISDICTION SEARCH WARRANTS FOR TERRORISM.
Rule 41(a) of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure is amended by inserting after "executed" the following: "and (3) in an investigation of domestic terrorism or international terrorism (as defined in section 2331 of title 18, United States Code), by a federal magistrate judge in any district in which activities related to the terrorism may have occurred, for a search of property or for a person within or outside the district".
SEC. 352. NOTICE.
Section 3103a of title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following: "With respect to any issuance of a warrant or court order under this section, or any other law or rule, to search for and seize any property or material that constitutes evidence of a criminal offense in violation of the laws of the United States, any notice required, or that may be required, to be given may be delayed pursuant to the standards, terms, and conditions set forth in section 2705, unless otherwise expressly provided by statute.".
SEC. 353. DNA IDENTIFICATION OF TERRORISTS.
Section 3(d)(1) of the DNA Analysis Backlog Elimination Act of 2000 (42 U.S.C. 14135a(d)(1)) is amended-
(1) by redesignating subparagraph (G) as subparagraph (H); and
(2) by inserting after subparagraph (F) the a new subparagraph as follows:
"(G) Any Federalism terrorism offense (as defined in section 25 of title 18, United States Code).".
SEC. 354. GRAND JURY MATTERS.
Rule 6(e)(3)(A) of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure is amended-
(1) by striking "and" at the end of subdivision (i);
(2) by replacing the period at the end of subdivision (ii) with "; and"; and
(3) by inserting after subdivision (ii) the following:
"(iii) federal law-enforcement-, intelligence-, protective-, or national-defense personnel, or any federal personnel responsible for administering the immigration laws of the United States, where the matters pertain to international terrorism or domestic terrorism (as defined in section 2331 of title 18, United States Code), or a matter of national security.".
SEC. 355. EXTRATERRITORIALITY.
Chapter 113B of title 18, United States Code, is amended-
(1) in the heading, by striking "Exclusive";
(2) by inserting "There is extraterritorial Federal jurisdiction over any Federal terrorism offense and any offense under this chapter." at the beginning; and
(3) in the chapter analysis, by striking "Exclusive" in the item relating to section 2338.
SEC. 356. DEFINITION.
Section 7 of Title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding the following at the end thereof:
"(9) With respect to offenses committed by or against a United States national, as defined in Section 1203(c) of this title, (a) the premises of United States diplomatic and consular missions in foreign states including the buildings or parts of buildings and the land ancillary thereto, irrespective of ownership, used for purposes of the missions, and (b) the private residences and the land ancillary thereto, irrespective of ownership, used for purposes of the missions, and (c) the private residences and the land ancillary thereto in foreign states, irrespective of ownership, of the head of diplomatic and consular mission and other United States nationals assigned to diplomatic missions and consular missions."
Title IV--FINANCIAL INFRASTRUCTURE
SEC. 401. LAUNDERING THE PROCEEDS OF TERRORISM.
Section 1956(c)(7)(D) of title 18, United States Code, is amended by inserting "or 2339B" after "2339A".
SEC. 402. MATERIAL SUPPORT FOR TERRORISM.
Section 2339A of title 18, United States Code, is amended-
(1) in subsection (a), by inserting "A violation of this section may be prosecuted in any Federal judicial district in which the underlying offense was committed, or in any other Federal judicial district as provided by law." at the end; and
(2) in subsection (b), by replacing "or other financial securities" with "or monetary instruments or financial securities".
SEC. 403. ASSETS OF TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS.
Section 981(a)(1) of title 18, United States Code, is amended after paragraph (F) by adding the following new paragraph:
"(G) All assets, foreign or domestic--
"(i) of any person, entity or organization engaged in planning or perpetrating any act of domestic terrorism or international terrorism (as defined in section 2331) against the United States, citizens or residents of the United States, or their property, and all assets, foreign or domestic, affording any person a source of influence over any such entity or organization;
"(ii) acquired or maintained by any person for the purpose of supporting, planning, conducting, or concealing an act of domestic terrorism or international terrorism (as defined in section 2331) against the United States, citizens or residents of the United States, or their property; or
"(iii) derived from, involved in, or used or intended to be used to commit any act of domestic terrorism or international terrorism (as defined in section 2331) against the United States, citizens or residents of the United States, or their property.".
SEC. 404. TECHNICAL CLARIFICATION RELATING TO PROVISION OF MATERIAL SUPPORT TO TERRORISM.
No provision of title IX of Public Law 106-387 shall be understood to limit or otherwise affect section 2339A or 2339B of title 18, United States Code.
SEC. 405. DISCLOSURE OF TAX INFORMATION IN TERRORISM AND NATIONAL-SECURITY INVESTIGATIONS.
Section 6103 of title 26, United States Code, is amended -
(1) in paragraph (i)(3), by adding a new subparagraph after subparagraph (B) as follows:
"(C) Response to Terrorist Incidents and Threats.- The Secretary may disclose returns or return information to the extent necessary to assist officers or employees of any Federal agency involved in the response to or the investigation of terrorist incidents, threats, or activities; the Federal agency may redisclose information received pursuant to this paragraph to State or local law-enforcement officials who are part of a joint investigative team with the Federal agency.";
(2) in subsection (i), by adding a new paragraph after paragraph (6), as follows:
"(7) Information Concerning Terrorist Activities.--The Secretary may disclose returns and return information, upon a particularized request signed personally by an individual in the Department of Justice or the Department of the Treasury appointed by the President with the advice and consent of the Senate, or a member of the Senior Executive Service who is responsible for the collection of analysis of intelligence and counter-intelligence information concerning terrorist organizations and activities. Information disclosed under this paragraph may be disclosed to employees of the Department of Justice and the Department of the Treasury personally and directly engaged in (and solely for their use in) the collection or analysis of intelligence and counterintelligence information concerning terrorist organizations or activities. Information disclosed under this paragraph may be disclosed to other United States inteligence agencies when relevant to their analysis of intelligence and counter-intelligence information concerning terrorist organizations and activities, and thereafter the information so disclosed may be used by such agencies only in accordance with Executive Order 12333 (or successor order)."; and
(3) by adding a new paragraph (a)(11) as follows:
"The term `terrorism' means international terrorism or domestic terrorism as those terms are defined in section 2331 of Title 18, United States Code."
SECTION 406. RESTRAINT OF PROPERTY SUBJECT TO CRIMINAL FORFEITURE.
Section 413(e)(1) of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. SS 853(e)(1)) is amended by inserting "or (p)" after "(a)".
SECTION 407. TRADE SANCTIONS.
The Trade Sanctions Reform and Export Enhancement Act of 2000 (title IX of H.R. 5426, as enacted by section 1(a) of Public Law 106-387) is amended-
(1) in section 902(6)--
(A) by striking "or" at the end of subparagraph (A);
(B) by striking the period at the end of subparagraph (B) and inserting "; or"; and
(C) by adding at the end thereof the following new subparagraph:
"(C) a statute, executive order, or regulation imposing such a prohibition, restriction, or condition with respect to a foreign entity designated by the United States in connection with terrorism, narcotics trafficking, or the proliferation of missiles or weapons of mass destruction.";
(2) in section 902(7)--
(A) by striking "or" at the end of subparagraph (A);
(B) by striking the period at the end of subparagraph (B) and inserting "; or"; and
(C) by adding at the end thereof the following new subparagraph:
"(C) a statute, executive order, or regulation imposing such a prohibition, restriction, or condition with respect to a foreign entity designated by the United States in connection with terrorism, narcotics trafficking, or the proliferation of missiles or weapons of mass destruction.";
(3) by amending section 904(2)(C) to read as follows:
"(C) used to facilitate the design, development, or production of missiles or weapons of mass destruction.";
(4) in section 906(a)(1)--
(A) by inserting ", the Taliban or the territory of Afghanistan controlled by the Taliban," after "Cuba"; and
(B) by inserting ", or in the territory of Afghanistan controlled by the Taliban," after "within such country"; and
(5) in section 906(a)(2), by inserting ", or to any other entity in Syria or North Korea" after "Korea".
SECTION 408. EXTRATERRITORIAL JURISDICTION.
Section 1029 of Title 18, United States Code, is amended by adding at the end a new paragraph (g) as follows:
"(g) Any person who, outside the jurisdiction of the United States, engages in any act that, if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States, would constitute an offense under subsections (a) or (b) of this section, shall be subject to the fines, penalties, imprisonment and forfeiture enumerated in this title if-
(1) the offense involves an access device issued, owned, managed, or controlled by a financial institution, account issuer, credit card system member, or other entity within the jurisdiction of the United States; and
(2) the person transports, delivers, conveys, transfers to or through, or otherwise stores, secretes, or holds within the jurisdiction of the United States, any article used to assist in the commission o the offense or the proceeds of such offense or property derived therefrom.".
Title V--EMERGENCY AUTHORIZATIONS
SEC. 501. OFFICE OF JUSTICE PROGRAMS.
(a) In connection with the airplane hijackings and terrorist acts (including, without limitation, any related search, rescue, relief, assistance, or other similar activities) that occurred on September 11, 2001, in the United States, amounts transferred to the Crime Victims Fund from the Executive Office of the President or funds appropriated to the President shall not be subject to any limitation on obligations from amounts deposited or available in the Fund.
(b) Section 112 of title I of section 101(b) of division A of Public Law 105-277 and section 108(a) of appendix A of Public Law 106-113 (113 Stat. 1501A-20) are amended- (1) after "that Office", each place it occurs, by inserting "(including, notwithstanding any contrary provision of law (unless the same should expressly refer to this section), any organization that administers any program established in title 1 of Public Law 90-351)"; and (2) by inserting "functions, including any" after "all".
(c) Section 1404B(b) of the Victim Compensation and Assistance Act is amended after "programs" by inserting ", to victim service organizations, to public agencies (including Federal, State, or local governments), and to non-governmental organizations that provide assistance to victims of crime,".
(d) Section 1 of H.R. 2882 of the 107th Congress as enacted is amended in section 1(a) by striking ", (d),", by inserting "(containing sufficient information to permit a proper distribution pursuant to such section 1201(a), where relevant)" before "by a", and by replacing all the matter after "certification," with "benefits under such section 1201(a) and the first year's benefits under such section 1201(b).".
SEC. 502. ATTORNEY GENERAL'S AUTHORITY TO PAY REWARDS.
No reward offered by the Attorney General in connection with hijackings or terrorist acts shall be subject to any per- or aggregate reward spending limitation established by law, unless the same should expressly refer to this section, and no reward paid pursuant to any such offer shall count toward any such aggregate reward spending limitation.
SEC. 503. LIMITED AUTHORITY TO PAY OVERTIME.
The matter under the headings "Immigration And Naturalization Service: Salaries and Expenses, Enforcement And Border Affairs" and "Immigration And Naturalization Service: Salaries and Expenses, Citizenship And Benefits, Immigration And Program Direction" in the Department of Justice Appropriations Act, 2001 (as enacted into law by Appendix B (H.R. 5548) of Public Law 106-553 (114 Stat. 2762A-58 to 2762A-59)) is amended by striking the following each place it occurs: "Provided, That none of the funds available to the Immigration and Naturalization Service shall be available to pay any employee overtime pay in an amount in excess of $30,000 during the calendar year beginning January 1, 2001:".
SEC. 504. SECRETARY OF STATE'S AUTHORITY TO PAY REWARDS.
Section 36 of the State Department Basic Authorities Act of 1956 (P.L. 885, August 1, 1956; 22 USC 2708) is amended -
(1) in section (b) -
(a) by deleting "or" at the end of paragraph (4);
(b) by adding the following at the end of subsection (5) "including by dismantling an organization in whole or significant part; or"; and
(c) by adding a new paragraph (6) as follows:
"the identification or location of an individual who holds a key leadership position in a terrorist organization."
(2) in section (d), by striking paragraphs (2) and (3) and renumbering paragraph (4) accordingly;
(3) in section (e)(1), by striking "$5,000,000" and inserting in lieu thereof "$10,000,000, except as personally authorized by the Secretary of State if he determines that offer or payment of an award of a larger amount is important to the national interests of the United States."
SEC. 505. ASSISTANCE TO COUNTRIES CO-OPERATING AGAINST INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM.
(a) The President may provide assistance or take any other action, sell or authorize the export of defense articles or defense services, or issue credit, credit guarantees or extend other financial assistance, under the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961, the Arms Export Control Act, the Export-Import Bank Act of 1945, or other provisions of law, notwithstanding any other provision of law, if to do so is important to United States efforts to respond to, deter or prevent acts of international terrorism or other actions threatening international peace and security. The authority of this paragraph may be used in Fiscal Years 2002 through 2007.
(b) Section 571 of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 is amended as follows:
(1) After "law," strike "that restricts assistance to foreign countries, other than sections 502B and 620A of this Act,"; and
(2) After "assistance", strike "to foreign countries".
(c) Section 582 of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 is amended as follows: after "law", delete "other than section 502B or 620A of this Act,".
Banshee
09-27-01, 04:10 AM
You know Bowser.
It really is very large.
Man, what text.
;)
Yeah, and those are just the changes to the first.
Banshee
09-27-01, 11:34 AM
On the television news was announced just now that there are coming more attacks this week and next week.
In Europe.
There we go.
Does it end?
Where does it end?
Let it please stop now.
I am afraid.
Not personally for me.
But for my 14 year old son.
And all the other kids and innocent people.
Because most of the time the innocent people are going to die.
For a case they did not ask for...
What is the case here, by the way?
:confused:
Hi Banshee:
As long as you are not working in a very high rise building, government building or are in a large gathering of people, you should be fine. As per their books: they look for bridges or tunnels in and out of the city, government and major economic buildings etc. They know that the government will be watching the planes and airports, so that may not be their next target.
Keep your eyes and ears open for the big bad wolves and call the police if you suspect anything. Better be safe than sorry.
Banshee
09-28-01, 04:50 AM
Yes and then you think nothing can harm you.
And then suddenly, before you know it, there is a knife in your back...
That happened to a person who lives in the same flat as I do.
That is nice, my own flat.
So you see.
No escaping.
It is everywhere now.
So it seems.
But it is nearly full moon, than people are more fighting.
You pay attention in a day or three the moon is full.
From now til two nights past full moon, there will be more agression and fighting everywhere.
So, the warnings for more terrorist attacks makes me feel real uneasy.
They make me feel afraid.
:confused:
Captain Canada
09-28-01, 05:21 AM
It's a strange thing this sense of fear. There is definitely a greater unease now that terrorists may strike at any moment. Amongst other things my company assesses risks for foreign companies and individuals abroad - we are likely to increase the risk ratings. I personally feel that this is something of an irrational response.
If, as the media keeps telling us, this attack was the result of Bin Laden's al-Quaida group, then I think we can generally rest easy. First, the group does not strike with much frequency. The last attack was the USS Cole in Yemen - over a year ago. There is much planning required for strikes, and no doubt the heat is now well and truly on anyone linked to the organisation.
The scale of the attack is important. It has resulted in a worldwide focus on terrrorist groups. There are now more resources to watch, counter and observe all these organisations and a heightened vigilence. In other words, an infrequent group of attackers are now operating in a far more hostile environment.
Copy cat attacks? I doubt it. Everyone now knows that Western governments will not put up with it. No group with a political agenda would dream of such an attack now. look at Israel, Hamas and Hizbollah have done nothing. It's bad PR right now if nothing else.
It reminds me of the attack on tourists in Karnak (Egypt) by the Muslim Brotherhood in 1998. The attack was so violent, so extreme, that all Egyptians were sickened. The Muslim Brotherhood lost a lot of support and pledged to stop such attacks due to its impact on tourism (and hence so many local jobs). Tourists refused to travel to Egypt after Karnak, but in retrospect it was the safest time ever to visit. There have been no attacks since.
That's ho I feel about this. An intelligent, but small group of terrorists who do not have the capability of maintaining frequent attacks. Add in the increased security efforts worldwide, hunt for the leaders and cut off of funds and I think the group will have difficulty operating.
If anyone faces an increased risk I suspect it is Arabs/Muslims living in the West. I've read numerous reports of random attacks, beatings vandalism of mosques etc. in the UK. I imagine similar insidents occur elsewhere.
Yes there is fear, but I honestly think it is misplaced. Things may change as the situation develops, but I would be surprised if there was a surge in terrorism. I put the risks the same as they ever were.
You are right. The only attack may come from people that have planned some activities as long as those activities are not closely related to airplane scenarios. Other than that, it will be a while before they regroup to figure out what to do next.
The middle east Moslem states need to take a hard look at their own house. In order to keep their economy going, they need to attract people, money, technology, tourists. If they all dry up because outsiders are afraid, then they will head back to the stone age very fast.
Banshee
09-28-01, 01:55 PM
Very true.
This is aso what makes it so hard to deal with. They hide like gophers in their holes until they come out to strike again
Godless
09-28-01, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by wet1
This is aso what makes it so hard to deal with. They hide like gophers in their holes until they come out to strike again
Dessert rats, in America the worry aroung my neck of the woods, is biological attacks, chemicals in the watter supply of the city, or airborne biochemicals.
There's also a mail letter that's going on around, I've heard rummors, supposedly if you open this envelope it has chemicals that may harm you. "though I've not seen it in the news"
Heck everything now is going to be blamed on these terrorists!.
You people worry too much.
Godless
09-29-01, 11:18 AM
Originally posted by Bowser
You people worry too much.
I mostly worry how this country is reacting, patriotism good, yes, but giving total totalitarian power to the goverment is not good!.
Stalin used this tactic, by creating enemies "within" So did Hitler, the jews are the enemy, now with the political correctness of this country the goverment can't even give clear definition of who are enemy is!.
This is not a war against Islam, that islam can't be used, this is not a war against Moslins, the whole thing is very sencitive here.
no clear definition who are enemies, can give the goverment enough power to incriminate anyone as they choose, some or many of our civil liberties could be forsaken for the safety of the people.
Banshee
09-29-01, 11:20 AM
The letter which was send by post was spreading a virus.
The Klingerman-virus it was called.
It seemed to be not true...
So people are frightened and scared of everything now.
This is no good.
In every country is fear now playing with people's minds.
Maybe that is what the terrorists want.
Us to be scared of everything...
Al over the world.
Who knows.
What will be next????
<i>"I mostly worry how this country is reacting, patriotism good, yes, but giving total totalitarian power to the goverment is not good!."</i>
<b>Total totalitarian power</b>
Hmm, I don't see that taking place; however, my concern would be with the definition of a <i>"terrorist"</i> and with the definition of a <i>"terroism."</i> Every liberty which the law enforcement wishes to gain for itself seems to hinge on that label. My concern would be the liberal labeling of individuals or groups, thereby opening the door to government intrusion.
NightFall
09-30-01, 11:54 AM
Because he has taken no action to even limit pollution he is killing billions or even trillions of children yet to be born that will contract horrible cancers because of the ozone layer. PEOPLE ARE FORGETTING HOW HORRIBLE OUR PRESIDENT IS!
a single volcanic eruption releases 10,000 times more cfc's than man has released since the beginning of time. we (or the preseident) really isn't making that much of a difference... unless you excpect him to kill of eery volcano, i dont know what it is that you really expect him to do.
If he (or his advisors) do well in this war he could be re-elected. What would we do then
okay.. call me dumb here.... but first of all, he has his father to help him out, and while many of you use this to make jokes. i see it as him having someone to turn to who's been there, and not just looking at statistics. his father brought us through the gulf, and i think he can pull through on this. but the point here.. was that yes.... if he was a good president, and the wa went alright, and things turned out for the better, WHY WOULDN"T YOU WANT H IM TO BE PRESIDENT????
I'm also worried about the draft. If this drags itself out I could be old enough to actually BE drafted
we are undoubtedly going to war. full war... combat with the af's. this is a fact. also. afganistahn isn't that big, and they really dont have aa whole lot of friends. the war wont last long enough for you to be drafted.
These people, the terrorists, are not a force to be underestimated. I fear they already have been.
the problem was not the terrorists. the problem was america. If americans were not lazy greedy people who care for nothing but themselves. this tragedy would not have happened. if the airport security gaurds had checked them as they should have, they never would have been on the plane in the first place. im glad that they are replacing them with military police forces. people complain that theyr freedoms are being taken away from this. that is because they were abused. just because we (the american ppl) live in the us. does not mean that we are safe from the evils of the rest of the world. perhaps america will look at this as a lesson, that the us is not the almighty and pwerful, we are just another coiuntry, and have the same worries as all the rest. it was only a matter of time.
if the airport security gaurds had checked them as they should have, they never would have been on the plane in the first place.
Pointing fingers at the minimum wage airport security guards is the wrong direction. The CIA, FBI tracked these terrorists but they could not talk to each other with a $20 billion per year budget. And you think, these guards could have done better? We have the technology TODAY to collect the movements of any suspect anywhere in USA. It will cost only $200 million dollars by a private company or $10 billion by government. But it is here, now. All the government need to do is ask.
NightFall
09-30-01, 10:19 PM
i understand where you are coming from, and it is a good point.. however, if the sg's were doing their job, then why is it that they are arresting ppl now, and not before. (not that EVRYONE should be arrested.. im not saying that at all). but what is the difference? NOW they feel they should be careful. AFTER its too late. because they never took things seriously. and i think its sad that it takes such a tragedy for ppl to realise just how much they hold in their hands.
It is like this. In a small town, people usually leave their doors unlocked or garage door open. If there is a rash of burglaries, then people become careful. On the other hand, in big cities, people have 5 dead bolts on their door and key cards to get into offices.
We as a society did not think, humans will do such things. Now we know better. For greater good, these brainwashed people should be reprogrammed or eliminated - your choice.
Most security gaurds have powers of detaining, not arresting. They are only security gaurds and not police. There is a difference. It is not up to the security guards to sift through and find the guilty unless they comitt some act before the guards eyes. This was not a failing of the guards. Put the blame where it rests, on our intellegence network and its operatives.
Pollux V
10-04-01, 08:05 AM
Sorry guys I've been having some internet problems at my home, thats why I haven't been really present at sciforums for the past couple of days. I'm using a comp at the school right now...looking over my shoulder etc.
Anyway, nightfall I love your pic thingy, I forget what they're called, but anyway I'll respond to what you've said.
Afghanistan is not a small country, and its troops have held off every invasion attempted upon it since the time of Alexander the Great. It has a powerful, well trained army that will be a challenge for our troops. I fear that US generals are thinking that they'll fight like the Iraqi's and give up for food and water, but because they're actually defending their countries interests (and interests of the soldiers themselves-terrorism etc.) valiantly. As we've seen they aren't afraid to commit suicide for their beliefs.
We've all probably heard Bush saying this will be a long war, and with only four years to go before I'm eighteen, and my lack of enthusiasm for the military commanders and the US government as a whole (not the FBI though-they kick ass, I don't care what anyone says) has contributed to my fear but sometimes want to be part of history and be thrown into the meat grinder. If you've been watching the news you've probably heard that generals and commanders don't really know how to go about the oncoming war. I doubt that whatever we do that terrorism will live on and continue to kill millions of innocent people, as will the US and Britain, in a circle of violence that will not end.
Okay. First I wanna know where you got the information regarding the amount of greenhouse gasses we put into the air as opposed to a volcanoe, first off because not all volcanoes erupt with the same sized explosionm, some are big some are small. Have you heard the stories of all the people in cape cod that contract a single form of skin cancer, and that cape cod is on the recieiving end of all of the smog from New York and Florida. The flow of greenhouse gasses does not cease for even a second, its infinite, rather than a volcanoe which spews gasses only once every couple o' hundred years. I've never heard stories of people contracting skin cancer after a volcanic explosion. Thats what we're pumping into the atmosphere, thats whats affecting EVERYONE on Earth (at different intensifications) and its going unchecked by our government, which is the number one producer of greenhouse gasses (I think the figure is 4 billion tons a year of CO2). The companies put this asshole that is our president into their backpocket to ensure that their great-to-the-twentieth-power children live like kings. If they're alive then anyway and the Earth hasn't been turned into another Venus.
Which brings up another theory of mine. I used to think that Venus once held an ancient advanced civilization that went through the same process as us, pumping gas into the atmosphere and regarding it as a natural cycle the Earth was going through until it was too late to save the planet. The species died, and all evidence of their technology was melted into metal rivers. Would you like that to happen? Take a look at Venus, then take a look at Earth. A millenia from now (maybe, I dunno) we'll have two superhot planets in the Solar System, and the human race, if its advanced enough, will have to live elswhere, like Mars or Europa. How does THAT sound?
pretty cool actually.
Hello Shrike:
In order to get the right facts and figures and understand the greenhouse gases, volcanos and our ecosystem, I suggest you to take up chemical engineering. Then, you will have a better understanding as to how much, humans produce, how much other animals and volcanos produce, how much your forests and trees absorb (based on factors in photosynthesis) etc. Then you will have a better idea, what is happening.
The numbers you get from internet depends on who is calculating the numbers with what bias. There are a lot of fudge factors. For example: how do you calculate how many cows on the planet? Did someone actually go out and count? You need that number to calculate the amount of bovine gas released to the atmosphere. Suppose there are 2 billion cows on the planet. Now, you need to find an avarage amout, one cow produces per day. If you underestimate, the number multipled by 2 billion could be way off. And so it goes on.
Pollux V
10-05-01, 06:57 AM
It's Propoganda-to an extent-but like I said: It's EVERYWHERE!!!
I'm proud of this thread. It kicks ass that it went so far.
How true. I am glad you like my post. Thanks
NightFall
10-05-01, 06:03 PM
i stand corrected.....:o
but.... ;)
I used to think that Venus once held an ancient advanced.....
if these ppl were so smart.. why didn't they come to earth?
BTW: thank you about the av. im thinkng about getting a new one though... in the real pic.. you can tell its her hand there... but the small version looks like a black dot on her face. LOL:P
Banshee
10-06-01, 03:04 AM
Shrike is right you know.
It is bush who stopped America from being 'member' of the Kyoto-Convention.
Not necessary he thinks.
I dislike bush terribly, he has sneaky eyes.
:rolleyes:
No, bombing Afghanistan and I don't know whatever they are going to bomb more.
You know what damage it is to the Earth?
All that d**n wars, I hate it so...
:confused:
Every war, every where on Earth.
Most of them, religeous...
I rest my case.
Bye.
Pollux V
10-07-01, 05:48 PM
Well shrike's back, we sorted out all our internet problemos so I'm back online etcetera etcetera.
Nightfall;
Ya never know, maybe WE'RE venusians.
Thanks Banshee for the comment. Was a nice thing to say. I agree.
CounslerCoffee
10-07-01, 07:16 PM
Banshee
"No, bombing Afghanistan and I don't know whatever they are going to bomb more. "
Looks like your wrong we just started bombing them.
NightFall
10-07-01, 11:15 PM
duh :P... i told y'all within the next week we'd without a doubt, no question about it be bombing afg. (i think i said prolly thursday) but fif ya listen to me? nooo.... ;)
and no.... we cant be Venusians....
if they were highly intelligent (i mean, they had to ATLEAST) get here......... we'd be much farther ahead technologically.
..unless they saw their previous problem, and swore off all techonolgy, and then farther down the road, everyone forgot, and nature took its course.... lol..
damn.. ive never had a solid opinion in my life.
:o
Banshee
10-08-01, 04:08 AM
When I wrote my reply there was no attack on Afghanistan yet.
I disagree with these attacks.
I hate this, it escalates, don't you see.
This is terrible!!!
And then you are proud of this bombing?
Great!!!
Be proud of your government that started bombing, be proud.
The same to the English.
That Blair is trying to become bushes pet dog...
Man, what a slime that Blair.
So and now the Netherlands may join the party.
Happy we.
Long Live War.
Not??
Dumb people, who are they hurting now?
Bin Laden?
No, innocent people, just like the terrorists did.
So we lower ourselves to the level of the terrorists and kill too.
Ok, it won't be stopped any way.
It is not to stop any more.
I know you are angry of what happened on september 11.
I am angry about that too, but more I am so sad it happened.
It brings me to tears to think of that day, when on tv was shown how people jumped out of the buildings, in fear, hoping to find a way out, just because there was no other way.
What do my tears help then?
Nothing.
What does this bombing help then?
Nothing...
The people are dead, nothing can bring them back, nothing.
PLease let this not escalate into a very, very ugly war...
:rolleyes:
CounslerCoffee
10-08-01, 06:13 AM
We are not bombing Afhghanistan we are bombing terrorist, why do you think that by night we bomb them and by day we give them hummanitarian aid. Were trying to show the people of that country that we are the good guys and that we only want to kill Osama. And i didn't say I was proud of the bombings, but guess what you were right anyways. We have every right to, and we shall use that right to the fullest extent. And yes to answer any question I am a nut ball and do own a hand gun, so when your out of food and come to my house after they drop "the bomb" don't come and knock on my door. Better yet there have been reports of Antrax this morning in Florida, not just one man a old folks home is what i heard. And entire old folks home and they said that there was a powered like residue, well this does it for america we basically screwed ourselves. But one last thing before I go, if they did release antrhax over there and I get sick from it, Im going to go over there and give Osama a big hug and see how he likes it.
tmegeney
10-08-01, 09:32 AM
Whoa Banshee,
I just read your post about Tony Blair trying to be Bush's pet dog, and I must disagree. If anything its the other way around. Bush is going out of his way to appease Blair. Tony Blair is an extremely respected world figure and Bush is new to the scene. Bush needs Blair to build respectibility for himself on the world stage.
Not that Blair needed a lot of convinving. The UK has lived with terrorism for hundreds of years and was on the US side from the start.
Captain Canada
10-08-01, 09:42 AM
The UK has lived with terrorism for hundreds of years and was on the US side from the start.
True. Not that the US has ever done much to shut down the Boston>Dublin>Belfast supply line of money and weapons. Funny how we think of the US as our 'best friend' when they didn't lift a finger to help us deal with the IRA. In fact, quite the contrary.
Oh the irony.
Blair also seems happy to twist history. He thanked the US for being the one nation to stand 'shoulder to shoulder' with the UK during the blitz. If memory serves, the US didn't join the war until 1941, well after the Battle of Britain and long after Australia, Canada, India and a host of other nations gave their unconditional backing to the UK. I guess history doesn't really matter if it's inconvenient.
Piss and moan, piss and moan... The Brits love to fight. I can't think of any country I would rather have on my side. We can't lose with these guys on our side.
Banshee
10-08-01, 12:05 PM
Two Thousand One, Nine Eleven
Two thousand one, nine eleven
Five thousand plus arrive in heaven
As they pass through the gate,
Thousands more appear in wait
A bearded man with stovepipe hat
Steps forward saying,
"Lets sit, lets chat"
They settle down in seats of clouds
A man named Martin shouts out proud
"I have a dream!" and once he did
The Newcomer said, "Your dream still lives."
Groups of soldiers in blue and gray
Others in khaki, and green then say
"We're from Bull Run, Yorktown, the Maine"
The Newcomer said, "You died not in vain."
From a man on sticks one could hear
"The only thing we have to fear.
The Newcomer said, "We know the rest,
trust us sir, we've passed that test."
"Courage doesn't hide in caves
You can't bury freedom, in a grave,"
The Newcomers had heard this voice before
A distinct Yankees twang from Hyannisport shores
A silence fell within the mist
Somehow the Newcomer knew that this
Meant time had come for her to say
What was in the hearts of the five thousand plus that day
"Back on Earth, we wrote reports,
Watched our children play in sports
Worked our gardens, sang our songs
Went to church and clipped coupons
We smiled, we laughed, we cried, we fought
Unlike you, great we're not"
The tall man in the stovepipe hat
Stood and said, "don't talk like that!
Look at your country, look and see
You died for freedom, just like me"
Then, before them all appeared a scene
Of rubbled streets and twisted beams
Death, destruction, smoke and dust
And people working just 'cause they must
Hauling ash, lifting stones,
Knee deep in hell
But not alone
"Look! Blackman, Whiteman, Brownman, Yellowman
Side by side helping their fellow man!"
So said Martin, as he watched the scene
"Even from nightmares, can be born a dream."
Down below three firemen raised
The colors high into ashen haze
The soldiers above had seen it before
On Iwo Jima back in '44
The man on sticks studied everything closely
Then shared his perceptions on what he saw mostly
"I see pain, I see tears,
I see sorrow - but I don't see fear."
"You left behind husbands and wives
Daughters and sons and so many lives
are suffering now because of this wrong
But look very closely. You're not really gone.
All of those people, even those who've never met you
All of their lives, they'll never forget you
Don't you see what has happened?
Don't you see what you've done?
You've brought them together, together as one.
With that the man in the stovepipe hat said
"Take my hand," and from there he led
five thousand plus heroes, Newcomers to heaven
On this day, two thousand one, nine one eleven
I'd feel a whole lot better if the Brits hadn't had their asses kicked the last time they were in Afghanistan (or the Russians too, for that matter). ;)
They tried to posses the country through occupation. We will use its people fo that task. Certainly, we would be fools had we not gained knowledge from errors of others.
Banshee
10-09-01, 03:33 AM
and errors of you, Americans, yourself.
Like we did our share of making errors, stay quite.
I shall not leave out my own country, for they are just as great politicians as yours...
;)
Pollux V
10-09-01, 06:56 AM
America is screwed! We're killing civilians in AFghanistan! Our own allies will start to question us, and the muslim countries will start to back Afghanistan. We're gonna have a new world war on our hands! If you thought WWII was bad, wait till you see the oncoming slaughter.
NightFall
10-09-01, 10:34 AM
im afraid your right shrike.
do you (all of you) think the war will be carried over here?
alot of people think that the war will be fought soley on Afg soil.... but i dont know... i mean.... yeah they did already hit us.. but that was really war.. just terrorist attacks... whether they classify it as an act of war or not..... but that's kind of a good point now that i think about it.
We're killing civilians in AFghanistan!
while, yes... it IS not a good idea... NO, we shouldn't be going down to their level... they did do the samething to us. i dont think our allies will question it as much as you'd think. we gsve them options... and its either:
1) innocent people die because of their country/religion/gov't...
OR
2) innocent ppl die because they never did anything when they had the oppotunity to, so they just let the problem grow, instead of dealing with it.
We didn't attack them first, so why would they stop if we didn't attack them now? they wouldn't. we have to do something... and while war isnt number one on my list, i cant think of anything else to put there. we have tried to be cooporative, and they have decided not to be. we dont have much of a choice.
nightfall,
In your round about way, you have touched on the very things that are driving the American people. Notice that the public is very calm, in that I mean that they are not standing outside and throwing stones in store windows and they are not jumping up and down on the White House lawn. there is a calm acceptance that this must be done.
NightFall
10-09-01, 10:50 AM
i have to agreewith you all the way, wet1. and i can relate very well to the comment about the american people staying calm.
Turnabout is fairplay....It is the responsibility of those civilians to control their people. Unless they want us to take over...and teach them how a government ought to function...which no body likes.
Can not have the cake and eat it too...
Banshee
10-09-01, 12:18 PM
Sorry Kmguru, what you say?
You Americans know how a government functions right?
Yeah, make my day..
With laughing.
I agree with Shrike.
I am afraid it is going the wrong way, very fast.
World War III
Here we come...
Everyone sorrounding Afghanistan has a different agenda as to who should be in-charge. All, US wants is punish the guilty and dont bother us again. But that will not happen. US has to get involved - no choice, no matter who says otherwise. So that we do not perpetuate the problem....
Pollux V
10-11-01, 05:13 PM
What I've said here proves that propaganda is everywhere. I'm proud of how this forum has gone and the involvement in it. Thanks for everyone who's joined in. It feels good to have started one and been involved in one thats eight pages long. Again, Nightfall, I love your avatar. We should all get one like his/her. It's really funny always glancing at it whenever I check on this forum. I think we've run outta ideas though. I'm worried that propaganda will soon decommence.
NightFall
10-11-01, 10:32 PM
thank you shrike.
and just for the record, im a "her".......
dont get too attatched.. i will change it every so often.... its time is almost up. ;)
Pollux V
10-13-01, 10:48 AM
So now we can truthfully say, propaganda is everywhere. Heres a mathematical formula for yeh:
patriotism+hollywood benifits=propaganda(the civilians don't know what's REALLY going on).
Sorry, nightfall, had no idea you're a girl. That seems to happen way too much to me on the internet. I call girls guys and guys girls.
Does anyone wish to stand up to shrike?
CounslerCoffee
10-13-01, 01:29 PM
Yeah il stand up to you shrike, i may get knocked down on my ### but il stand up to you.
Would you rather a kid believe in america and hate the taliban, or would you rahter that kid grew up hating america and blow up a building? Being a patriot can be a good thing, having something to believe in is a VERY GOOD THING. Not having something to believe in a trust is very very sad. As for propaganda yes it is everywhere but who really cares? What can you do about it? Nothing except complain and chances are if someone really believes that *propaganda* then they won't believe you.
Pollux V
10-14-01, 11:56 AM
What's the point of believing in something if there's no proof whatsoever to support it, and the only reason to support it is because everyone else does. Propaganda can be stopped...somehow if we all unite...somehow and...somehow make it...stop. It looks like everyone on this post believes in propaganda, we just have to spread the word...i guess.
NightFall
10-15-01, 10:10 AM
a moral structure
I wonder if we are fighting the terrorist war like we are fighting the drug war... criminalize everything, if anyone is suspected, put them in jail indefinitely and take away their property.
Since we won the drug war, we should be able to win the terrorist war. I guaranteeee it....
Banshee
10-16-01, 03:02 AM
I agree with Shrike.
If we all unite, we can stop it.
So lets spread the word and try to find as much people as we can, we must have a little chance it can work and Propaganda is leaving the world, so to say.
I don't have it clear yet how we can let join the rest of the world, for if it is possible, everybody must hear of this action against Propaganda then.
So we must let know by television and radio.
And we must have a good speaker, like Shrike, he is the leader of our anti-propaganda action....
:)
Come on Shrike, I do believe in you...
;)
Its time for a new type of War:p
There should be limits on freedom:p
Iraqi.. I mean Afghani... terrorists were aided by the internet which is why we should shut it down:p
In other news today, President Blair in meetings with middle east government:confused:
Face it. The war on drugs was a non-event, the war on terrorism (all terrorists you say, not just Afghanistan?) is just going to be a disgrace on the American people (another one then). Whats next? Gonna bomb Iraq again? Cuba? Basque? Northern Ireland? Texas? I do hear that a lot of people there own guns. Its true?!?
NUKE the terrorists. Why not?
War on drugs my ass.:rolleyes:
Pollux V
10-16-01, 06:42 AM
Nuking everything isn't a good way to solve your problems, it's considered almost inhumane. You can't shut down the internet. That is impossible, and completely irrelevant. The terrorists are aided by the media, specifically news centers like CNN that broadcast pictures of terrorists holding guns to people's heads. They make the situation seem much, much more important and incredible than it is. I think, despite having a president with little or no ability to make decisions on his own, he won't attack every country on Earth that's ever raised a finger at the US. It'll probably be just Afghanistan and Iraq, they deserve it after all their rulers are corrupt and evil.
Banshee
10-16-01, 10:57 AM
No, no, no, that is not the way.
First you say we must unite to fight against Propaganda and now you say: Yeah, Afghanistan and Iraq is ok to bomb.
No, no Shrike, that is not what you said earlier, no.
We should unite, peacefully.
Not?
Then I understood you wrong, I am sorry.
I am not for this bombing, I hate it...
I hate every 'war' or whatever they call it.
I am a pacifist, always...
And I am sorry to say this, but your 'president bush' is not really good for America.
But then again, who am I to say that?
:(
Tell me Mr Shriek, are you aware of what you have said? I may be reading your post wrong, but it really looks like you just named out the countries which "deserve" to be bombed by America.
News Flash Miss America::mad: About ten or so years ago, in his position as with the Carlysle Corporation( or is it Foundation:confused: ) yor friend and mine George Dubbayuh Bushbaby had numerous dealings with the Bin Laddin family. Now, at a rough estimate how many millions would you say he gave Osama to spend on weaponry and training?
News Flash, kid: For every photo of a miserable refugee being threatened by a Taliban soldier, there are a dozen of Afghani civilians blown away by Western bombs...and people wonder why they hate us.
Yeah, lets bomb Iraq as well while we're killing Third World refugees.:mad:
For years America has been keeping the people of Iraq in starvation in some sort of attempt to get at The Antichrist, Sodom.
(But Bandit, its like you know, an economic war against Saddam, and the guys in the White House say its a Good Idea so......). As if this is doing him any harm.
Who do you think armed these people in the first place? Santa Claus? He only comes to Christians. The Easter Bunny? No in fact it was the Good' Ole Boys at the White Huse again.
....."Here you go Mr. Afghani Militant, take these nice, shiny American guns and beat back those oppressive flag-burning Russian Commie Dogs, by Gollie and Moms Apple Pie. We'll be back in a few decades to sort you out....I mean sort out you out of your mess, yes, that'll do..., Play nice now, y'hear?"
Not to remind people of the well known American talent for fasiling to observe the blindingly obvious, but Big Daddy Bin Laddin doesn't represent the entire Muslim World, or the Middle East. But you see, if you continue at this rate, he'll become a cultural hero to all Muslim people. He already has to Afghanistan, thanks a lot Bush.
Wise up America, you're the worlds only Superpower, and you know what they say about Absolute Power. Dominate the world, why dont you?
Enduriong Freedom you callit
COOL:D Vietnam meets Desert Storm meets the Gulf War in the countdown to nucear/ biological/ chemical Ragnorak
Bring on the Anthrax Puppy!!:p He's recyclable and squeezably soft!!
God was American
HEEheeheeheeheeheehee
Shriek & Banshee. Lethal combination.
Pollux V
10-17-01, 06:28 AM
I'm taking deep breaths here but I said a few things I shoudn't have. First off, I don't make the decisions of the US government, no matter what I say they'll bomb whoever the hell they want back into the stone age. However, when it comes to Afghanistan and Iraq talking is useless. We tried it with Afghanistan and may try to talk with Iraq. I'm not the type that shoots first and asks questions later or goes charging into battle with a bloody sword wondering who I'm fighting. We must always try to talk first and take our time in doing so. Afghanistan did not listen. I personally think we should send in US troopers instead of bombing the place, since the civilians that remain in the area have a much better chance of not being hit by stray fire rather than just airplanes bombing em.
Banshee I don't want war as much as you but there is no other way to solve this problem. We can't talk to the Taliban, we can't talk to the terrorists, what do we do? They killed six thousand americans. There is no other viable solution.
Pollux V
10-17-01, 06:28 AM
oh, and bandit it's shrike
You missed the point kid. Nobody thinks you run America. We may never know who runs America. The point is that you're fooling yourself into believing that this is all down to the evil nature of Big Daddy Bin Laddin. The point is that this is all down the attitudes of the worlds one and only Superpower.
*Her comes the Kryptonite, Baby*
Heres a little story in short for under-d3eveloped attention span;
America screws around in the Middle East and the Arab States
(Pakistan Palestine Israel Iraq Iran Afghanistan and100's more)
America gives guns to some of these people, and take them away from others. America gives food to some of these people, and prevent others from farming it ( a patent on grain?are you mad over there?). Oddly enough, this creates civil wars, famines, insane dictatorships (remember America's little Hitler? the aforementioned Antichrist ?) and an eentsy bit of Anti-American feeling, the ungrateful gits.
Well guess what Mr.airStHRIKE, America's going to do it again, pretty soon, in a awrzone near you, all showings reviewed by CNN. Heard of the Northern Alliance? Im sure you have. Well, they're the "good guys" (read here- non Anti-American) that George Dubbuyah and the folks behind the curtain up at the White House are most likely going to put into power when the dust settles in the crater that Afghanistan will become. The Alliance have pretty much the same views as the Taliban, but they're more friendly with the West. I suppose they'd be happy with being the kings in their own castle, as opposed to Fortress America. Well, to make this short, they encourage all their soldiers to rape the women of their enemies and kill their children. And do you think that all the radical anti-american Taliban supporters will somehow disappear ? All those angry militant fellows ?>
Hey Kids, can you say Jyhad, I know you can
And Shriek n' Banshee was too good of an opportunity to miss
Banshee
10-17-01, 11:39 AM
Hey Bandit, you can be a little more friendly.
You come in and begin to bark at us like you are a very angry, big dog.
I understand what you are angry about, and you are right.
But it doesn't give you the right to rage against us as you please.
You can say it in another way.
More friendly.
We are not the enemy here, ok?
So take it easy and tell it a little more friendly.
We are no fools, we know how the USA have helped the Middle-East with weaponary and all.
We really are not crazy...
Sometimes, things come out a little wrong.
Then it is no need to react so as you do.
As you start to be friendly to your fellow human, then you start somewhere, and you do something.
Being friendly, that is important.
Not much people are just friendly nowadays.
Maybe that is wrong with the humans on this Earth, no kindness any more.
No more friendlyness, no caring, no loving....
Maybe this is the most important 'thing' that is wrong nowadays...
No more loving...
:(
So I need to chill out, do I?
.....
Maybe you're right Banshee.
I suppose it seems like I come in spouting angst and disillusionment. If thats a word.
It just freaks me out when I hear people talk about the "evil ragheads and their boss Bin Laddin". It somehow gives me the idea that all people everywhere are hopelessly stupid (I'm not biased against America in particular, this is a just a well reported disaster, there are plenty others ). You should hear me talk about the idiocies of my own country.
No More Loving.
Well, I can hardly find a way to pin that one on the US, can I? Thats all thanks to a society which is a solid core of orderliness, and the independent fringes are ostracized.
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.
That one comes back to propaganda again Ithink , but it has nothing to do with Afghanistan, I swear. What do you see on TV? Advertisments for everything, of course, which you can never possibly have
I wnat that car, that wife, that house, that life
All I have is that dream
Drink Coca Cola, and women will find you attractive:confused: REALLY???...no
So what you get is a society of people who are never happy with what they have. They want the next model, its shinier, bigger, better, faster, and comes in alovely shade of blue. So they work harder for money for more stuff, which is out of fashion or obsolete soon...sigh
All of these people start living to a schedule, when should i leave for work, where should i go for my break, how long will i have when will i get home, will i be too tired to go out with my friends, when the hell will i find the time to get married, when will i snap and attempt to kill my workmates?
No offense to Shrike, but you see this most in the American big cities (and Tokyo and London, or so Im led to believe ) because of the frantic hectic lifestyles they lead and the way they are pushed to spendspendspend by virtually everything and everyone around them.
Its like a stationery form of RoadRage, the pressure builds up inside and caring about other people really doesnt come into your mind because you're boiling up with repressed aggression on the inside from the weight of thousands of people pushing against you and the you POP:eek:
........um
Or so Im told.
Thats the propoganda I see everywhere, kid
Falling Down was one of all time favourite films:)
Banshee
10-18-01, 02:23 AM
Bandit, I am not a kid you have to explain to what is happening in the world.
I wrote about that item a lot of times, so look them up if you want to know.
This thread is about Propaganda.
And it is clear now you are from the Netherlands, so in the same situation.
Is it better where you live?
Tell me.
Are there fights where you live too?
All your talking about humans who always will have what other people want and so on is already known.
I typed my fingers blue about it, and not only me...
And this behaviour of humans has to change, as soon as possible.
But humans are paranoid and always looking out for themselves.
They better look around some better and listen to another human.
This is old, I stop writing this all down again.
If you want to know, look in other threads, or look up my other posts. All is there, what you wrote above.
Not only written down by me, but by very, very much members of the Sci forums.
This is just another thread, with another name: Propaganda Is Everywhere..
So you see, that is why we talk Propaganda here.
Ok?
:confused:
I don't understand you, you are a member since last February, but you seem not to know how a thread works.
Maybe you should pay us a visit, more often...
But I can be very wrong.
So my apologies if I am wrong.
Bye.
Pollux V
10-18-01, 07:02 AM
There's a part of me that thinks Bin Laden isn't even real, he's just an excuse by a racist government to go after Afghanistan and to blame on military screw ups that've happened before. It is a possibility.
I don't have too much faith in the US, bandit, all I really like about it is the fact that it doesn't reach us way up here where I live (banshee lives farther 'up' though). The US gives help to countries that have something that we want. We might've given help to Afghanistan because India, Pakistan, and China are nearby. Inda and Pakistan were at each others necks before this whole thing happened and were for sixty years. The US may have some good people running it but it tends to just be a huge corporation intent on running a world that they don't control.
Something that's been bothering me ...
You've mentioned a number of times that 'we can't talk to the Afghani,' yet we had no problem a decade ago supplying them with much of the military equipment and training required to kick-ass when it came to the USSR.
Were we using sign-language?
Like Exxon Valdez, someone was asleep at the wheel, now we are doing damage control....
BTW, I watched CNN yesterday. There seems to be a hint that the Anthrax scare is of domestic origin. If we can not find the right people, we may pin that on the Bin Laden group - just to be safe.
And, why everyone is going nuts over Anthrax? Every year, Flu kills a bunch of people. Unless there is a massive deployment of bio-agents, it is not going to kill anybody.
If we are shutting down the congress on this scare, imagine what will happen, when small pox hits Washington DC. That will be a much more serious situation.
Captain Canada
10-18-01, 11:30 AM
I think STDs must be the big worry in Congress...
Banshee
10-18-01, 12:19 PM
Don't give them any idea's now.
You never know who reads this and then does it.
Bringing small pox to the White House in Washington.
It was in CNN. The smart people read Sciforums and hopefully they are not crazy enough to cause harm. It is the "little knowledge" people we have to worry about.
Pollux V
10-18-01, 03:34 PM
Oh, we can talk to em but they don't listen. The Taliban, al queda, they cannot be reasoned with.
Yeah I think the whole anthrax scare is b.s too. I keep hearing all this crap about people not eating because they're so scared of being poisoned. It's all so much b.s. I should change this thread to: "the media spits b.s"
I wonder: can I do that?
machaon
10-18-01, 05:16 PM
Consider the following statistics, which are not just known -- but are experienced as the facts and facets of daily life -- by most of the non-Western world (from Issues in Society, Year 2000, published by the Spinney Press, Australia):
A sixth of the world's population (mostly North America, Europe and Japan) received nearly 80 percent of world income, averaging $70 per day in 1998, while the 57 percent of the population, in the 63 poorest countries, received only 6 percent of world income, less than $2 per day. Worldwide, 1.2 billion people subsist on less than a dollar a day (p.1)
Thus, a quarter of the world's population, 1.3 billion people, live in severe poverty -- nearly 800 million people do not get enough food, and about 500 million people are chronically malnourished. More than a third of children are malnourished. (p.4)
Children are particularly vulnerable. Around 2 million children died as a result of armed conflict in the last decade. In developing countries 160 million pre-school children are underweight. 1.2 billion people live without access to safe drinking water. (p.4)
The gap between rich and poor is growing. The net wealth of the 10 richest billionaires is $133 billion, more than 1.5 times the combined national income of the least developed countries. The cost of eradicating poverty is 1 percent of global income. Effective debt relief to the 20 poorest countries -- $5.5 billion -- is equal to the cost of building EuroDisney. (p.4)
Six countries can spend $700 million in nine days on dog and cat food. Today's world spends $92 billion on junk food, $66 billion on cosmetics and nearly $800 billion in 1995 for defense expenditure.
Moreover, Western foreign aid to poor nations has decreased in the last decade. In real per capita terms, net overseas aid to the least developed countries has fallen by 45 percent since 1990 and is now back to the levels on par with the early 1970s.
Thus, it shouldn't be surprising that when the Muslim and Third World hear calls for a "new world order" emanating from Western capitals, people in impoverished lands -- much of the Muslim world -- know what's at stake is western interests, not theirs. This is the lesson of history.
Pollux V
10-18-01, 05:24 PM
the more people in the world the more money they spend.
Thus, it shouldn't be surprising that when the Muslim and Third World hear calls for a "new world order" emanating from Western capitals, people in impoverished lands -- much of the Muslim world -- know what's at stake is western interests, not theirs. This is the lesson of history.
Just a thought - when you shun technology and the methodology to feed your population, it is not anybody else's fault, or is it?
Pollux V
10-22-01, 02:53 PM
happy 1300 kmguru!
Ah this post is going to hell. I thought it was all over.
What do you mean by the last thing you said, kmuh?
CounslerCoffee
10-22-01, 07:43 PM
Ya know this whole anthrax thing is really gaining momento. They just said that 2 people died dfrom it and that they both worked at a post office and that another 2 people have got it and all that stuff. Not to mention mostly everybody else has got anthrax. My only question though is when does it hit my old kentucky home?
Thank you shrike...
I thought this topic is just petered out too....but Coffee may revived it.
I still think, the Anthrax situation is of domestic origin. Someone is mad at some specific person and trying to cover his tracks by sending the letters to a few other ones. I also think that the batch that was sent, contaminated the sorting machine which spewed out the stuff everywhere.
Because it came from Trenton, New Jersey area, they should do a search as to who had access to a bio lab. I also suggested to a newyork times forum that they should use gamma radiation system to neutralize the bugs in the mail. UV radiation will not work inside a packet.
The sooner, the government declares it is a domestic origin, the sooner we will get back to work.
Mad Scientist
10-22-01, 09:04 PM
DEAD! Thts the prob. They are dead and the US needs a target for revenge.
Banshee
10-23-01, 01:39 AM
Dear people of Sci forums, the Anthrax letters are not only in the USA.
Don't you look the News on tv?
It is in Europe too, here in the Netherlands there are 2 letters, in Norway there was a letter, in Switzerland I even heard, were 2 letters.
All letters with a powder in it, all tested on Anthrax, all false...
So what do I think then?
A few stupid persons has mailed these letters, to be on tv, to do important, I don't know.
It is ridiculous. I think too that it is from within the USA that the letters were send. Terrible people.
Please, look at the News from Europe, there it happens also. I bet you have only the bombings at Afghanistan on tv.
Talk to you later.
Bye.:)
Pollux V
10-23-01, 07:52 AM
We've got our hands full, at least in the news for now bansh.
I did see a brief statement that said that someone in Europe got anthrax.
Banshee
10-23-01, 11:29 AM
You see?
A brief statement that it is in Europe also.
Nice country you have there, that America, is America the only country that matters?
It sure starts to look like that.
It is not important to tell what is happening over sea's, because it is not in America itself, so why should you bother about us, Europeans?
You, Americans, start a war, with bombing and all, but what happens couldn't care you Americans less. Or however you say it in english.
I hate this. Why do you all agree on that? Don't we matter, because we live in Europe? Shall we come all live in the USA then? Maybe then you people care about us, over sea's...
:confused:
Unbelieveble!
You Americans are always screaming freedom here and freedom there, but when Europe is attacked or whatever, you can't care less. Typical...
I shall not say what I really want to say. Be happy I do not...
Say it and be done with it Banshee, you'll only regret your silence later.
the more people in the world the more money they spend
a nice quote from shrike, i think.But perhaps it should be rewritten
the more people in the world the less money to go around
simple economics-Supply and DEmand
THe more more money people need, the less they are supplied with by governments
the more people in the world the more poor people in the world but with the same ratio of rich:poor
That was meant to be the ratio of rich to poor.
EErrr, smilies:mad:
That was true in agarian to industrial society. In a knowledge society that rule will not hold true.
As robots expand our physical and mental abilities, we will get more output than what we physically put in - therefore all will get rich, theoretically ofcourse....
WildBlueYonder
10-23-01, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by kmguru
I still think, the Anthrax situation is of domestic origin. Someone is mad at some specific person and trying to cover his tracks by sending the letters to a few other ones. I also think that the batch that was sent, contaminated the sorting machine which spewed out the stuff everywhere.
You're probably right, but it could be someone unhinged by 9-11, or they thought it was time to set whatever plans they already had in motion. A friend of mine said that 9-11, "was a good day to kill someone in New York, no one will find you out", unfortunatly he may be right. We have enough crazies to go around.:( :(
All over the world right now they're taking advantage of the whole Taliban Terrorism situation. The public statement of the Taliban is
"We did not do this. We do not know what Anthrax is.Hahahahahaha!":eek:
And dont think I inserted that laughter either.
The U.S. Anthrax was probabaly ( in my overconfident opinion ) the work of a "Biological Unabomber". In a hell of a lot of other places batches of white powder are being sent about to cause mass Anthrax scares. Rumours say November the 11th is going to be a very bad day for western Europe, the British Isles in particular ( I know whereof I speak :( ). Be afraid. Nasty.
But on the other hand, Anthrax has been hanging around India, S.America , Africa, and a few sewerless hell holes in the Mediterranean for years. Ho-Hum life goes on , but only for the living.:( :( :( :(
Banshee
10-24-01, 12:11 PM
Well Bandit, you are a real clever boy aren't you?
You have a big mouth, but I want to know how you would handle if you were in the war with bombs flying around your ears and your family being killed before your eyes.
And what do you want to do with me?
If I say what?
What then? You come to hit me? Man, I am afraid now.
You Americans should look further then your nose is long.
There is more in the world then just the USA, what do you think.
It is terrible what happened at Sept. 11th, but no one can go back in time and make it better for the ones who are hurt and dead.
This terrorist deed was not only for the USA a horrible 'thing', but also for the rest of the world. And now it is everywhere.
If it is coming from real terrorists or some young people who want to do 'brave', it is real horrible what people do to one another. And it just began...
As time pass, it looks more like the Anthrax situation is of domestic origin - It might be designed in the sameway you stop a forest fire...
WildBlueYonder
10-25-01, 02:14 AM
Originally posted by Banshee
You Americans should look further then your nose is long.
There is more in the world then just the USA, what do you think.
Yes I know, but most people only think of themselves & their loved ones, & to us, the rest of the world used to be so, so far away!!
It is terrible what happened at Sept. 11th, but no one can go back in time and make it better for the ones who are hurt and dead. No words, can discribe this......
:(
This terrorist deed was not only for the USA a horrible 'thing', but also for the rest of the world. And now it is everywhere.
Could be, unfortunetly.
If it is coming from real terrorists or some young people who want to do 'brave', it is real horrible what people do to one another.
Unfortunetly, misguided or wronged, people usually lash out in anger!!
And it just began...
God save us all!!
dividivad
10-25-01, 07:00 AM
AMEN
Pollux V
10-25-01, 07:00 AM
Has anyone seen any propaganda lately?
I saw an article in the New York times that looked like it severly screwed up an interpretation of a muslim. They made the guy look evil and say that all americans sucked-basically.
WildBlueYonder
10-28-01, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by shrike
Has anyone seen any propaganda lately?
I saw an article in the New York times that looked like it severly screwed up an interpretation of a muslim. They made the guy look evil and say that all americans sucked-basically.
Ask any muslim, even a recent convert, what they think of Israel & American supprt for it? That's were the hatred starts, you should see more answers to your questions after that.
I saw propaganda just this morning, CNN i think
"All Americans citezins are soldiers, all Americans are involved in this war"
Well, i think thats how it went. To my ears it sonds like scaring up paranoia and xenophobia. I mean, there are people who take everything Bush says to heart, cos hes President.:eek:
Ill take the time to say this again. I have nothing against Americans, live and let live I say, if they'll do the same.:)
The fact is that i cant stand George Bush. I know there are certain things he has to do and say, I know he has a dedicated team of advisors and spin-doctors putting their take on the current crisis, among other things, but hes the public face of an incompetent sytem that just gets my goat:mad:
Anyway, the propaganda above may invoke the same sort of "Reds under the bed" atmosphere that existed dyears ago. I mean, was it planned that way, or was it just a poor choice of words
And Banshee, what'd I say to get you so hot under the collar ? Ive looked over that post, and I cant see anything that should made anyone blow their tops. And Im not American either. Guess again.
I like my anonymity. Just look at those remarks you made about "those Ameicans who cant see past their noses". I wonder what you would say about my people ?
Pollux V
11-08-01, 06:29 AM
I saw some more propaganda everyone-CNN Headline News giving all the great reasons why the FBI and CIA are so great when we know the CIA is closer to the KGB than what we'd like them to be while the FBI, is, in my opinion a whole lot better. Did you hear the CIA is now allowed to start assassinating people again? It's totally crazy letting them do that because they only seem to be able to assassinate our own presidents (JFK)! They tried about twenty times to kill Castro, how hard could it be?
Any more....propaganda? I'm really interested in what other news organizations from around the world have been saying and were saying, so our pals from australia, sweden, and britain should come over and have a chat.
YES INDEED!!!!
Propaganda on every news program, special "ultra new and improved" pro war shows on all the time here in britan (im sick to death of seeing it).
Yesterday it was the american b52's dropping daisy shreders in afganistan, now im sure you all saw the same propaganda as me so you know the devistation these weapons create, yet they boast about there killing capabilitys.
Hell why not just nuke them?
At least it will be quick and relitivley painless in comparrison to being slowly starved to death, or being mangeled be daisy shredder shrapnel, and all for what revenge?
Isnt revenge a deadly sin?
But its not about revenge, its not even about september the 11th, its about caspian sea oil, the harsh reality of the situation is thousands, possibly millions of the worlds poorest people will starve to death so Mr Bush and Mr Blair can have that oil they value so highly.
The time is comming when people of that nature will take a back seat, its time we stopped fighting over petty squabbles and started acting like grown ups, if we dont this path only leads to self anhialation.
Pollux V
11-08-01, 02:11 PM
I finally see a side of you benji when you don't talk about getting so drugged up and drunk that you have no idea whether or not you're human or some sort of animal. I don't think we should nuke em' because it wouldn't do any good and then the entire world would be in an uproar and I'd be waving my hand to the US as a whole as I got on a boat headed to Iceland. Ah, Iceland, land of saviors and constant 60 degree weather.
lol, i dont get drunk and stonned every day just on special occations :).
I dident mean lets nuke em, i was making the point that if your going to kill thousands of people its more humain to do it in an instant rather then drag it out over months possibly years.
Pollux V
11-08-01, 05:05 PM
I see now.
Banshee
11-09-01, 05:32 AM
So, is this how a human thinks??
Let's nuke them all, it is more humain??
Have you thought what a Nuke will do to our Planet Earth???
Or don't you care about that, like most of the human race...??
:mad:
Maybe you better think some more about that, but I guess you have more 'important' things to do. Like f**king everybody up with this so called terrorist war.
It is beginning to look like a real, normal war and the fighting will not be over for a long time.
You sit down in the evening and see the women and children bleed, it looks great on the tv... :confused:
Pollux V
11-09-01, 06:46 AM
Calm down bansh, what benji says isn't law, it's just an opinion. The US will never nuke anyone ever again, that much I can tell you from my perspective 'behind enemy lines.' We learned our lession and the moral dilemnas then, don't worry: IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.
A nuke wouldn't do any good anyway, it would kill more innocents than enemies and wouldn't even kill THAT many enemies because they're spread out all over the place. I have serious doubts when the press reports that the Air Force has destroyed quite a few talibanese soldiers, I'm sorry but we are really, really undestimating them.
Did you check out "xtremely cool" bansh?
Banshee you misunderstood me too unfortunatly :(.
Have you thought what a Nuke will do to our Planet Earth???
Odd you should say that i did A level history at school and for one of my assignments i wrote a pice called 'The A bomb and how it saved a million lives' i got a b+ for it, wish i still had it perhaps thats more for a history thread tho.
So when you say do i know what a nuke will do, indeed i do but i also know it depends on how many warheads said nuke carry's.
I know the nukes dropped in the 1940's on japan saved more allied soilders then any other event during the war, the lesson we failed to learn in japan we learned the hard way in vietnam.
Is afganistan going to be the next vietnam?, let me just remind you the taliban fought the entier might of the russian army when communism was at its peak (something the rest of the world darnt do) and they kept up a strong resistence for 20 years, now soon as the russians move out america is moving in, Mr Bush should phone the president of russia and ask how many russians lost there lives trying to fight the taliban in afganistan, i suppose we could just carry on carpet bombing them, dropping million dollar ordinance onto 10 dollar shacks.
Banshee
11-09-01, 07:41 AM
Yes I know all about it, really everything there is to know about all these ridiculous wars.
Fact is that the A-Bombs are much, much stronger then in WW2.
And my concern is the Planet we are given to live on, not the destruction of everything and every living being because humans seem to like to kill eachother in the most horrible ways.
And I do know very well how terrible the attacks at the WTC are.
But you see what happens; Bombing whole Afghanistan because of an ARAB who should live there and be responsible for the attack. The Taliban are evil, true, but the local population is not the enemy and they are the victims, again the wrong ones.
Just as it was at the WTC attacks, the innocent ones become the victims and the ones who did it are dead.
What are they doing now???
The same as always, take down a whole lot of people who are not responsible, hurt to so much innocent humans.
So much hurt and pain. Humans seem to think it is the only way. Will it bring back the WTC and all the dead people there??
Humans want revenge, maybe they better start to think of another way to get to the real terrorists and stop that bombing every time in this world. It is no solution, it makes things worse and worse.
Now there is brought even more pain and hurt again, after the attacks at the WTC. Do you really think that is the right thing to do??
I disagree with you on this and the main reason is that with all this bombing our Planet gets hurt and more pain too.
Why can't humans live in peace with eachother. Always fighting, making war, unnessary terrible attacks and pay back, that is what humans do. And the bombs grow bigger and bigger and the pain and hurt grows bigger and bigger.
It is not the way, but it is no other then it is and I regret these killings everywhere in the world deeply.
The human race should shame themselves for inventing such killing machines, for the end is not in sight, not for a long time. I fear for the ending....What ending will it bring????
There also is the chance that some insane terrorist group will throw bacterial poison in the water system,,,,Bye, bye humans.
And bye, bye Mother Earth, for she will be destructed by all these human doings and stupid killings and dangerous inventions.
I can cry for this....I do cry for this for the human race is not civilizating itself, it is destructing itself and the Planet too.
:confused:
Pollux V
11-09-01, 07:49 AM
It is the nature of the entire world, banshee, every ecosystem that exists on this planet. Murder, competition, war. Animals kill each other. Insects kill each other. Trees expand their canopies to compete with smaller ones, causing them to choke from no resources. Such is the nature of the human race.
Earth is a violent, harsh environment. Oxygen, in high amounts is a poison to any animal here. The human race as a whole is very, very violent, but the average individual human is a pacifist just trying to make a living and put a roof over their heads. We are a collective of violence that is only viewed as violence when viewed from afar.
Banshee
11-09-01, 08:32 AM
No, not true.
The wildlife, like animals and trees, plants and so on, doesn't kill for the killing but to eat.
Animals, for instance wolves, kill most of the time the old and weak under their prey's. So populations stay healthy.
Yes, by deep despair they grab maybe once in a while a young animal, but mostly not.
As for forests and other wildlife, there is no unnessacery killing.
Only the human race kills for 'fun' and want pay back...
Try to look at this wildlife as it is, it keeps itself healthy, it civilizes itselfs.
Something the human race does not, they are heading straight in the opposite direction. With their 'beautiful,good inventions' to kill whole nations in a day if they want to.
You think that is healthy??
Pollux V
11-09-01, 10:10 AM
There is a theory out there, bansh:
Humans have a single purpose on Earth and the universe. Earth is the only world in the universe with life, and humans are the only organisms that can regulate any animals behavior, and prevent (now anyway) any extinctions. We can bring the extinct back to existence or send a pesky critter into the memories of all of those that it plagued.
Competition is a dangerous thing.
Banshee
Apparently you have never heard of weasels and mink or you would not have said, "Only the human race kills for 'fun' ... "
Shrike
I would say that competition is a 'natural' rather than "dangerous" thing.
More...Propaganda
"Crowding out all those angels: Scientists have created a transistor made of a single molecule -- small enough to fit about 10 million on the head of a pin. The invention could do away with Moore's Law once and for all."
....even if it takes 50 years to commercialize it?....
Banshee
11-09-01, 03:21 PM
I will stop with this.
All I wanted to say is that the human race is speeding its way down the hill in a rather fast speed.
And Chagur, you are a little right, but those animals were on these Earth ages before the first human like creatures came crawling out of the sea. And they do not hurt the Earth or try to destroy her. They only live, and some of them are just cleaning up the garbage other animals leave behind.
And who is killing Minks, for its fur??
Exactly, humans....
I only want a kind of balance in this world. It is so mixed up now.
Why is that? Why are there countries without freedom for everyone? Why are there such dictatorial countries? Who began with that and why?
Why can't all the humans live in peace all over the world?
Why is there always someone who wants to have control over a country?
Why are there so much different countries? Who began with that?
And why has it been allowed by other humans?
Because humans are all sheep who follow the strongest?
I refuse to believe it, it can be better.
We have a choice...Get the dictator out of his position and set the people free, everywhere. Only the one leading dictator.
It can be the beginning of a new start for people living in such countries and leave the boundary's open.
No more different countries with different regimes, freedom for everyone in an open world without boundary.
It can work you know if more humans join in this together and want to try to take only the leading dictators (with their righthand men) away from their positions.
Then people in those countries see how it really can be, to be free.
For every person has the right to be free. And all hatred and anger shall slowly slip away and every human can live its life in freedom and peace with other humans. Perhaps we can live in harmoney with Nature again and find back the Inner Balance with ourselves and Nature we lost ages ago.
And first...Burn all the money...And destroy all destructive weaponary we humans so 'perfectly' invented.
But I can guess what the reply will be on this post.
Well, I do believe it works, if only all humans who are fighting now all over the world should stand still and listen to themselves.
Maybe then they hear how stupid they themselves are. Being fighting and hurting eachother for reasons to silly to argue about.
Stop this nonsens of hurting one another all the time.
Try to open up and have some more patience and listen a little better to another person and listen to yourself.
It is a start, if everybody wants to join it can work and you yourselves shall feel so much better. For it is much nicer to be kind to another person then pay no attention or run them over.
And NO...I am not dreaming. This is the way we have to go to safe Earth and the human race.
Pollux V
11-09-01, 03:54 PM
without any form of weaponry there can be no order.
Such is the nature of the human race (as a whole).
Banshee
11-09-01, 09:56 PM
You are really thinking very human.
Try for a change to look a little further.
It is just this kind of thinking why humans never shall live in peace with eachother and with Nature...
If shrike is 'thinking very human' ...
Then what are you thinking, Banshee???????
Pollux V
11-10-01, 05:58 AM
But being too apprehensive (or not very apprehensive) is never a good thing, banshee. I think like a human because I am a human and I was born and raised as a human in a human world and culture. What I think, as a whole (is this the human thinking you refer to?) is likely shared by millions or billions of people around the world.
However there are people out there like you, bansh. I understand that you can go beyond thinking like a human, it is my belief that it requires quite a bit of self-convincing. Correct me if I'm wrong.
And as I told korni on his link page, we can stop throwing sand at each other now. From this point on and what I just said nothing I say is hostile.
Banshee
11-10-01, 09:22 AM
Dear Chagur, I am just as human as you. I only think some different and act some different towards other humans. I try to be good and nice to everybody, but sometimes it is really hard to do because other humans start looking hostile and paranoid if you are nice to them.
That I think, is a very sad thing. I only want to try to do things in the best way to others, without anger and hate and paranoid feelings. More and more humans lock themselves up in themselves and are afraid of the big bad outside world in which more and more violence stands up.;) :(
QUOTE: by Pink Floyd, Lost For Words
'I was spending my time at in the doldrums
I was caught in a cauldron of hate
I felt persecuted and paralysed
I thought that everything else would just wait
While you are waisting your time on your enemies
Engulfed in a fever of spite
Beyond your tunnel vision reality fades
Like shadows into the night
To martyr yourself to caution
Is not going to help at all
Because there'll be no safety in numbers
When the Right One walks out of the door
Can you see your days blighted by darkness?
Is it true you beat your fists on the floor?
Stuck in a world of isolation
While the ivy grows over the door
So I open my door to my enemies
And I ask could we wipe the slate clean
But they tell me to please go, fuck myself
You know you just can't win...'
Shrike, of course you act this way, you are born and raised in this hostile world. Humans do not know better any more.:)
Dear Chagur, I am just as human as you.
Of that, I have no doubt.
I only think some different and act some different towards other humans.
Admittedly, and I can empathise with that.
I try to be good and nice to everybody, but sometimes it is really hard to do because other humans start looking hostile and paranoid if you are nice to them.
Amazing isn't it?
Take care, and enjoy being you.
Banshee
11-10-01, 10:42 AM
What do I have to think of this reply of you Chagur?
You start to sound hostile a little, that was not my intention.
I just try to explain, because so many humans are lonely because of an hostile environment.
They start losing contact with other humans and eat their own sad feelings.
And slowly they grow bitter and sour for the rest of their life time.
Don't you think that is sad?
So many humans, living next to eachother without ever saying a word, not even a simple Hello.
Then they grow so sour they start acting hostile and paranoid to other humans. And it goes quikly, more and more humans become this way every day.
I feel sad about that, why is that wrong then?
All we need to do is make sure we keep talking...:rolleyes:
Well, I feel sorry if I did say something wrong, for I do not want to be rotten to you.
Have a nice day Chagur and please, don't feel angry towards me.
That was never the intention. Ok?:)
Not angry, just gruff at times.
As for people being lonely ... I don't know if it's so much a hostile environment so much as one which permits the individual to be rather independent.
If you don't need another ... others ... to survive, then the self-doubts that so many people feel makes them withdraw. If you don't try to make contact you don't risk being rebuffed.
The amazing thing is that, over and over, catastrophe forces people to interact and ... wonder of wonders ... everyone is surprised that it is so easy ... and then go back to their old ways.
Sad.
Take care.
Banshee
11-10-01, 12:03 PM
Yes, you are right.
I forget to look at things in another way too sometimes.
Maybe because I feel that is better to have contacts with other humans, in case people are lonely and sad. I want so bad the world to change, but I can overreact in it, oh yes.
And I really feel sad about all the hurt and pain humans do to eachothers feelings.
So much hurt and loneliness these days. Humans forget to look at the Earth and the Sky above in the evening when it is bright outside and you can see thousands of stars and walking in the woods by a full moon.
They forget about the beauty on this Planet. That kind of things can make you feel quite happy with life, for you have to live that life.
Then I think it is better to live it well, not forget the beauty on this Planet Earth. They better pay more attention to that sometimes and feel some better too...:)
But I guess I am sometimes to much a dreamer.
Thank you for your reply. Have a nice day.
Some of the nicest people I have known were dreamers ;)
Take care ... time for me to roll.
Banshee
11-10-01, 05:08 PM
There you are right.
Just a thought, your thought...
If all propoganda is to be abhored equally, this thread -- filled with new-age, pacifist, adolescent whining -- is easily abhored for how effectively it demonstrates that so few of its authors clearly understand and appreciate such worldly and adult concepts like how many people of previous generations sacrificed themselves on battlefields throughout the world so that such drivel could be freely expressed, as if it carried more substance in the scheme of human reality than it actually does.
I am pleased and proud that each of you has the right to speak your mind, whatever is in there, but each of you also has the responsibility to those who have sacrificed themselves to afford you that right, and who cannot speak for themselves, to think before you speak.
Suprised you didn't wait until tomorrow, Veterans Day, to express your thoughts.
You know, give it that extra bit of zing ... :cool:
My father survived Guadalcanal. I respect him. You got a problem with that?
You're confusing my intellectualism with mindless, blind patriotism.
I imagine that was not your true intent.
Prove me right.
My dad survived WWII and I survived the Korean 'Police Action' (you know, the forgotten war) and my youngest son put his time in in Berlin, before the 'Berlin Wall' came down.
So what has that got to do with it?
I still think you should have saved your childish rant for tomorrow if you wanted to give it some more zing.
And what should we do with your childish estimations of pertinance?
I take it that your use of "we" was meant to indicate an emotional affiliation with \777 ... or is it with the Borg? :rolleyes:
Have a nice day :cool:
Banshee
11-11-01, 10:31 AM
Mr. G, I am not whining.
I understand very well what you say, but you do not understand what I am saying.
So what about thinking yourself before you speak?
All people who died on battlefields have sacrificed their lives yes, I know very well about all wars and all the fighting.
But I do not have to agree with it and I refuse to behave the way you do.
Have a nice Vet's day.
So to hear you sure will enjoy it!
:confused:
I think the only way there could be peace on earth would be by aliens making themselfs known(i have never seen a ufo nor have i had a close encounter).
This is the only way the people of earth could bond together as 1, when/if it happens all our petty squabbles will instanly become irrelivent, we would bond as 1 people 1 planet regardless of color creed or religon.
Of course without ever see'ing an alien i have to conclude we are the only form of inteligent life in the universe (a big assumtion i know) and i wouldent cry foul if they showed up on the white house lawn tommorow, in fact i wish they would, they would save millions of lives on this planet.
I am pleased and proud that each of you has the right to speak your mind, whatever is in there, but each of you also has the responsibility to those who have sacrificed themselves to afford you that right, and who cannot speak for themselves, to think before you speak.
Mr G, my grandad fought in the 2nd world war, he was in africa italy and in france for the d-day landing's, he dident fight so i could say what i want in an online forum, he fought to kill off the oppressive nazi's.
That was yesterdays generation, today i salute what he did, preserved a way of life that we are just starting to reap the rewards from, grateful doesnt quite cover it.
Here it comes the giant BUT.
My grandad did not fight so that where war and bombs left off news and media can take over, i speak my mind, i look at arguments from both sides and when someone lies to me i feel offended.
The truth is what i want, nothing more nothing less.
Besides what you say on the i-net is meaningless, so say what you want be it nazi sentiment or otherwise, the i-net is the ultimate freedom you dont know me, who i am, what i do, what i belive, you only see the name.
You find me one other media that is as free as the internet, TV yea right and like every program you watch hasent been screened for anything they consider you mind to weak to cope with, newspapers the only thing iv ever found newspapers good for is wraping up my fish&chips in, radio same as TV they not allowed to say what they want, censored to a point where relivent material is no longer entrusted to the people, just the decision makers and there only in it for personnal gain.
Banshee
11-12-01, 11:07 AM
Ok Benji, I agree with this all the way.
I don't have tv at the moment and I couldn't care less.
Newspapers I do not buy. Only some reading at the Internet, just to see what they have been bombing away again and what more hurt and pain is done to innocent humans and the Earth.
I guess Mr. G. loves to see the women and children bleed on the tv.
:confused:
Um, I no more wish to see, or advocate that, women and children bleed, and/or die, than I wish to see people killing brain cells through mental sloth or general confusion.
Oh, and now I'm watching and talking to you, too. You can take further comfort from that fact, I'm sure. :D
Banshee
11-13-01, 01:55 AM
Mr. G.
What fun it is to haunt another member of Sciforums,isn't it?
Have fun.
Goodbye.
WildBlueYonder
11-13-01, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by Mr. G
I am pleased and proud that each of you has the right to speak your mind, whatever is in there, but each of you also has the responsibility to those who have sacrificed themselves to afford you that right, and who cannot speak for themselves, to think before you speak.
If this was true, then all talk radio, talk shows, TV, politics, ads, etc. would never see the light of day! Sorry, there was no "Bill of Responsibilities" in our Constitution,(though I wish they had added that too, we need to remember we are a society that needs to work together, not individuals only, first & foremost).
Sincerely,
Randolfo (USAF 1973-79)
Banshee
11-14-01, 10:46 AM
Randolfo, I am really glad to hear you think like this.
That is exactly what humans should do. They should communicate better together and work together to keep the human race and Planet Earth safe.
All these (holy) wars and suspicion towards eachother is killing the Earth rapidly now. The Ecosphere is so badly damaged and it keeps going on, these wars and hatefulness towards eachother and Earth. Worse every day.:mad:
Earth and the human race needs humans like you who want to do it the right way and try to live your life as well as you can in harmony with other humans and Earth. We need to have more respect to eachother and immediately stop this doing hurt to other humans feelings and to Earth in particular.
Nice to hear, you want to do it well.:)
WildBlueYonder
11-14-01, 09:02 PM
The older I get, the more I think that all society & many of our systems are all a house of cards, that if one card is pulled, the whole house falls down! Check out our economy & Wall Street, for starters, if shoppers & investors do not think that the economy will recover, then it doesn't. A neighborhood or city, needs people that will respect each other, help each other out, take care of their houses, streets, etc.. Maybe even the earth? Since it is interconnected too!!!
Banshee
11-15-01, 10:41 AM
Yes, exactly. Humans have to make sure they keep on talking to eachother in stead of arguing all the time.
It should bring more balance in everything, economy, neighbourhoods and all.
And they certainly should learn to pay respect to one another.
Especially to Planet Earth. And that will only work if humans work together, not against eachother.
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