Big Buisness

[tetra]

For the past day, I have gone over and over lines of reasoning in my head, and can find none that would keep the various mining/communications industries from moving the entire industry into space.

There was an article some years back, about scientists finding an asteroid that contained in it approximatly 1,000,000,000,000 (One Trillion) dollars worth of metals.

Let me clarify.

Microsoft and all of it's assets are worth aproximatly 47,000,000,000 dollars. This asteroid is worth around 20 times as much as Microsoft and all of it's assets.

A capital investment of say, 100 billion dollars, by the mining and communications industries of the world, including a space elevator using that little moon that we never knew we had, would have a return profit of over 900 billion dollars (around a 1000% profit), while at the same time, launching humanity into space, where there are countless fortunes to be made.

[wet1]

Thank you, tetra. This has been one of the subjects that I have been harping on. Another driving factor that I have made mention in the past of is that ecology laws are tightening. at present industry has found that it is cheaper to go to the third world countries. Both in labor costs and in ecology law requirement relief. But that will change. With the new found prosperty that new jobs bring also comes the I want more that the workers expect. Including cleaner enviroment that the industries ran from in the first place. There will come a time when the openess of space may be the only welcoming arms left for industry to head to. In addition will be that unlimited power, refridgeration, storage space and benefits of gravity adjustment become the major attractions.

The case you site is for only one asteroid. With near unlimited source of raw material and the fact that it is around 90% or better pure should lead to the conclusion that space mining and industry and it's future is out in space. Once that decision is made then we will have space travel within the solar system.

[Banshee]

I don't agree on the subject: Traveling through space......
I guess it is 'evil' when that happens. People are polluting Earth as hard as they can. Do you want them to destroy and pollute space too....????

Think before you answer, for this is very true. There is already to much garbage from Earth installed in space, all those useless satelite's which give a lot of noise too I guess in space.....

I don't understand you. I mean it, how can you agree on such garbage. Haven't we polluted enough already....
:confused:

Sorry, maybe I over react, but I try to struggle for Earth.
It's not what you can say for yourselves.
If humans go on like this, Earth will be gone one of these day's and then everybody's crying Help Me..and so on.
How can you agree on such useless garbage. We don't need it............
People in Africa are dying from hunger, try to solve that first, for that are fellow-humans in need. And nobody gives a d**n, because instal satelites is more important and that ridiculous spaceshield too........What the h**l is bush so afraid of???
Perhaps he has secrets and he is afraid another country has the same secrets???
Or is he afraid of an attack from outerspace??? The nutcase....
They're all nutcases, everywhere, in Europe too, all nutcases........
And I don't know it anymore for I have seen enough misery and pain.
IT'S BEEN ENOUGH....so please, make it stop..

[kmguru]

Do you want them to destroy and pollute space too....????

You can not destroy space...because it is space...

Space is so vast that if you blow up the whole planet, it is like an ant fart in the wind...

Calm down...and relax...your children will survive...

[Banshee]

I'm afraid not.

[TheRealDcoy]

Originally posted by kmguru










You can not destroy space...because it is space...







Space is so vast that if you blow up the whole planet, it is like an ant fart in the wind...







Calm down...and relax...your children will survive...



Hold your horses, and think about the following...



if mining companies start mining a trillion tonnes of metals and stuff, where do these ores end up...? Yep right here on earth, in our precious consumer goods (yes mine too). We already have so much junk on this planet, but just to be on the safe side we'll start importing some more from outer space, right.?



No prob, we'll just shoot it back in the sky when we don't need it anymore , just like we dump radioactive materials in the sea.

Sure space is big enough , but the again so was IPv4 address space...

[wet1]

Once we have limited space travel it will be nothing to send our garabge scows to the sun. What better way to dispaose of it? Wrap it in a net or plastic bag and send it on its way.

The cost of space mining will be enough that they will want to see to it that it is all used even minig trailing, which I might add will be less that here on earth will be valuable for insultating habatits so nothing gets wasted.

[TheRealDcoy]

I know the total mass of everything we could ever want to send to the sun is infinitely small compared to the mass of the sun itself. Question is, do we no enough about the sun and its inner processes to start messing with it?
When the sun goes down, so do we. No way out !!

[wet1]

While you pose a serious question and a good one, I don't think we have to worry on this one. Long have I been an advocate of understanding what we do before we do it and it's consequences. However look at the amount of space debris that falls to the earth daily. It has nowhere near the gravational attraction of the sun, which pulls in many times what the earth receives. You could dump radioactives to the sun till the earth had no more and still not affect it. Garbage would have even less effect than that.

[TheRealDcoy]

I guess you are right...

[kmguru]

You can put the whole earth into the sun and get a little burp in the form of solar flares...until we harness singularity and create blackholes and design 100 mile diameter space ships powered by a small blackhole, we do not have to worry about blowing up a sun...let alone the galaxy...

[TheRealDcoy]

How, can you be sure....
Are you really willing to mess with your source of life???

that' s what i wanted to point out ...

[wet1]

Yes, I had understood your point immeadately. Already we do the same thing and have since we can remember. It is not just the sun that we depend upon for life. It is also the eath itself. For without that the sun is just another star. The earth is far more fragile than the sun. Look to its safety first, the sun will take care of itself.

[Banshee]

The sun is just a minor star..

[kmguru]

Originally posted by TheRealDcoy
How, can you be sure....
Are you really willing to mess with your source of life???
that' s what i wanted to point out ...

By growing the population from a few million to 6 billion, you are already messing with the source of life....

[kmguru]

Originally posted by Banshee
The sun is just a minor star..

The Milkyway galaxy is verrrrry BIG.....

[wet1]

and much more so is the galaxy...

[tetra]

Alright, the universe is so damn big, that we can hardly calculate with our current math how large it is.

I say, just launch all of the garbage under the Sun's orbital plane (nobody ever goes there for some reason).
Itll be millions of years before it reaches another solar system, and then it will simply pass through it, fall into the sun, or burn up in some gas giant's atmosphere.

[Banshee]

The sun is just a minor star...
No sun, no Earth...

But we take our space ships and fly to Andrmeda.
;)

[TheRealDcoy]

Originally posted by tetra
Alright, the universe is so damn big, that we can hardly calculate with our current math how large it is.



I say, just launch all of the garbage under the Sun's orbital plane (nobody ever goes there for some reason).

Itll be millions of years before it reaches another solar system, and then it will simply pass through it, fall into the sun, or burn up in some gas giant's atmosphere.

Ah yeah, and the when we ready to blast our precious, bio-hazardous and radiactive junk into outer space, the Chalenger thingie happens all over again ....
KaBlaam ... al that nice junk scattered around the globe to, eventually, wind up in your morning coffee

[Banshee]

Exactly!!
Nothing but garbage, left in space by humans who think they can conquer? space...

But wait, one good morning.
All the junk out there in space comes back to us.
Haha, our own fault then.
:p

[Stryder]

Originally posted by Tetra<BR>Alright, the universe is so damn big, that we can hardly calculate with our current math how large it is.

Just because I'm really picky I had to mention, the Universes shape is in constant change, so in a way it's like a giant Principle of Uncertainty staring right at us.

We might send out signals and take measurements, but when those dopplers return the shape of the universe will be different from what we have percieved at that point.

So no matter how much mathmatics we have, we won't be able to fully calculate it.

[kmguru]

Sure we can calculate it. It is: think of a number approaching infinity. There you have it. :D

[Stryder]

Kmguru said/argued/posted/wiped:<BR>think of a number approaching infinity.
Of course that was in response to my reasoning of the inability to calculate the universes size and shape, my answer to that:

That's like trying to reach a preverbial goal post that keeps being moved, making then entire action to reach that goal extremely pointless.

Of course my point there strayed from the exact topic, to which I shall now mention :D

If man was to swan off into the stars in search of mineral deposits, hes going to have to think of "How is he going to mine it?, and how is he going to move the shipments?" at the end of the day it all boils down to Fuel, fuel and more fuel.

Okay I'm sure some will point out about some hypothetical antimatter inverter for some engine, but I've always wondered how the heck you decommision something like that.

You have the point of who and what is mining the ore you are after, after all machines are going to need to be manned and maintained, which means the cost for being in space starts to increase. (Oxygen, water, recycling etc)

Okay you might be able to power your machinery with solar systems, or satellites beaming the power via microwaves, but this adds to the hostile enviroment of space.

If people think (which some do) that you can find oil or coal, you won't unless a planet has previously had life, since that's why they are called fossil fuels.

As for radioactives, that's another problem all together you wouldn't want to contaminate your path between your pickup and drop off point or you would end up with perhaps some form of accumilative damage.

Of course this is something that people will speculate for years, before considering doing such acts. Of course you also have to ask, should Corperates have the right to do that, or should it be put to a global vote where no country or corporate goes it alone?

[Banshee]

Babbling, babbling, babbling.
The Universe is too big, not measurable.
Oh man, so important.
What is the fun of measuring up Universe. Ha, it is a lif-time's work. More life-time's I guess.
Hahaha.

It is just a beautiful place, until one big meteor hits Earth.
Then Earth becomes a shooting star...



:p :p

[Teg]

There are only a few problems with space mining. The moon lacks anything good and the asteroids are outside our range currently. They are very abundant sources of silicon, though. This leads me to believe that a plan is already in the works. As long as they can do it without causing asteroids to break away from the belt, it is a good way to deplete the asteroids and make profit to boot. It also gives the incentive to move into space as some here suggest. This probably won't happen for many years. Just think of all the problems that need to be worked out:

1. Humans have not made it that far. Figuring out a way to create a self-sufficient mining operation will be no easy task. On top of the forementioned oxygen, we also have the need for food and water. Nothing short of a second biosphere would do.

2. How do we make the relaunching of shuttles an easier and lees costly process. There is no simple solution, but I have seen some suggestions along the science fiction line. The best I've seen is similar to those roller coster rides that are restricted to vertical movement. It is a tether that can remove the factor of Earth's gravity. I recall a discussion with my physics teacher that revealed the main problem as overcoming the human tolerance for g's. Any sort of launching device would be unreasonable to the amount of digging that would need to occur in the Earth's surface. Another suggestion might be an automated craft that lacks the human factor.

3. The cost in energy. Stryderunknown points out a huge problem. Only something so abundant such as solar energy would do. I have heard a good deal about the theoretical fusion power. I doubt that this technology is very close on the horizon.

[tetra]

OK

Transportation probelm - Space Elevator(s)

Oxygen Problems - Mine it from the Asteroids, or Europa, or the Moon, or anywhere that has water. If you run out of water, convert heavier elements into oxygen. This isnt too hard, because there is not much of a cooling problem in the 4 degrees Kelvin background of space.

Yea, it would be hard, but what else do we have to do? Argue about Gary Condit's Sex Life? Wave flags? Space development would surely give us a gigantic advantage (imagine being able to air-drop any number of soldiers anywhere in the world at any time)

Oh yea, and there is absolutley no threat us our garbage affecting the sun in any way. Anything that gets even remotley near the Sun gets melted and vapourized, and then broken down into its constituent atoms, and then swished away by a flare.

[Banshee]

Of course, put everything you do not longer need in space!
It goes to the sun and then it melts away.
Man, what a stupid remark.
Are you all so short-sighted or what?
Is Earth not polluted enough?
Will you now go pollute space?
Why not.
We call Tony and Sir Loone to pray for our wel being.
And hope that there is no big meteor that hits Earth!

I hope it happens, our own fault!!!
Crazy people!
:confused:

[wet1]

I shall see later if I can find a link I once ran into where all this is already figured out to some degree.



http://www.permanent.com/a-sps-ssi.gif


http://howstuffworks.lycos.com/asteroid-mining1.htm
http://www.permanent.com/index.htm

[tetra]

Alright, I see that you are seriously underestimating the size of the sun.

The Earth could spend million of years producing nothing but garbage, and sending it into the sun. The Sun would not notice. It would not affect the Sun AT ALL.

YES, we could just throw all of our garbage into space. It would not affect space at all. You cannot pollute space. Thats like saying that a little colony of ants is going to alter the rotation of the Galaxy. Its even magnitudes less significant than that.

[Stryder]

tetra,
I think the main problem with that is that placing junk into space means if you werre to fly a ship at speed, you might puncture a hole in your hull with some of that debris.

You might say you can just shoot it off at the sun, but have you ever thrown a handful of pebbles, they don't stay in a tidy bundle like when they left your hand, they spread out.

which means some of that junk might miss the sun and end up back at earth's perimeter.

Also you have to question what junk do you want to get rid of? wouldn't we be better recycling it?

[tetra]

Stryderunknown, there is no air friction in space, or gravity relative to your position unless you are actualy on the surface of a body. Pebbles shot at the Sun would go directly to the Sun.

Yea, recycling would be a good idea, but I think the overwhelming abundance of resources in space can make up for most of it. Maybe just start recycling water and air, and its easy enough to replace the rest.

[Banshee]

Well, what is stopping us then?
Come on!
Throw your pollutoin into Space, the Earth is full, so come on...
:confused:

Crazy people!!
Maybe we figured this out , the scientists did, and the Sun can have a lot.
But one day the Sun starves...
Like Earth does.
That is Space.
Not Life, but Space.





:rolleyes:

[Stryder]

Tetra, you say there is no friction in space, but space has a constant amount of radiation, or light, or even zero-point energy when mass does not occupy it.

It's all relative to Heisenberg's principle of uncertainty, Even looking at Chaos theory dictates that firing something even in the most perfect of conditions is still going to have chaotic occurances caused by the catalysation of firing it. Namely how you fire something will differ from how I fire it, and how the universe is shaped at the first firing will be different to that of the next.

I still mentioned recycling, because we have the materials at our location, we don't have to travel to some asteroid and work out a method ot mine, or rape our planet further, we just reuse what we have.

[tetra]

We don't have to worry about minute chaotic trajectory differences when the trash is billions of miles away :)

When the Sun dies, we will most likely not exist, or if we do still exist, we will have many, many spares.