An Open Letter to My Pro-Bush Brother-in-Law

[Repo Man]

An Open Letter to My Pro-Bush Brother-in-Law

But I can keep my peace no longer. Today the camel’s back broke. As the story emerges that the torture and abuse and genocide have been condoned and sanctioned at the highest levels of this corrupt administration, I am once again compelled to reach out to you and ask, "Is there no limit to your acceptance of these dreadful policies? Are you not big enough to admit when your president is wrong?"

I have wondered many times during this escalating ordeal what you would have done had you lived in Germany in the 1930's. Would you have been a good Nazi in the same way that you are a good American? Would you ever have possessed the objectivity or detachment, even after the war and the liberation of the death camps, to step back and say, "My God. How did I let that happen?" I knew you would scoff at a comparison that today seems less and less remote.


More, http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/04/05/con04222.html

[YoungWriter]

Okay, I'm a pretty liberal person. I don't like Bush or Kerry, but I am really sick about comparisons between the Bush administration and the Third Reich. I mean, really, do they have anything in common, other than the power they posess?

If we REALLY looked at every Prez's history, I'd think they'd be alot more even out.

[Epox]

No references to folk such as Pol Pot, Mugabe etc etc...

As a proud Englishman it does piss me off when these sort of things appear although i can see where they're comin from there is just no comparison.

[Repo Man]

The relevant comparison is how far wrong do things have to be before people object?

What is disturbing to both the author and myself, is how many of my fellow Americans are willing to rationalize the war, the prisoner abuse, and the erosion of our civil liberties, for a wholly imaginary increase in safety.

As Germany slid down the Fascist path, many ordinary German citizens sat by and did nothing, even fought and died for a completely undeserving government.

Of course GW isn't Hitler. And we are not on the brink of Fascism. But we are closer than we have been in many years. And that does not seem to bother many of my fellow citizens. And their complacency, and willingness to believe easy lies, is what bothers me the most.

Read this from Ted Rall's blog:
Greetings from Gitmo

Still doubt that the right-wing bloggers are off the hook? Check this out! Scroll down and you'll find an actual, bonafide writing campaign to Attorney General John Ashcroft about little old me. Their goal: to have me thrown into a U.S. government gulag, and presumably executed (yes, really), for treason. Treason, it seems, means disagreeing with the Bush Administration, the Republicans, and their wars against Iraq and Afghanistan.

In a follow-up to the cut-and-paste Ashcroft letter--which ought to give the chills to any American, regardless of political persuasion--blogger J.B. Corrigan adds:

First, I want to thank everyone who sent me copies of their messages to Attorney General John Ashcroft regarding the acts of Treason committed by Ted Rall (see previous entry). It is gratifying to me that so many people are willing to stand up and fight such despicable actions. Now it will be up to the U.S. Department of Justice as to whether the law as defined in the Constitution will be enforced.
However one whiner wrote in to make the predictable charge that it was 'censorship' and a violation of the First Amendment to take Rall to task for his Treason.
And to that I say: BULLSHIT. Rall committed Treason, and that Treason is perfectly defined by Article III, Section 3 of the United States Constitution...
And Rall? It is my fervent prayer that I might live long enough to see that S.O.B. lined up before a firing squad and executed for that act of Treason. Tell me where that dirtbag gets buried and I'll join the long line of real Americans who will no doubt be ready to p*ss on him.

My.

I scoured the rightist blogosphere for reactions. I found positive responses at Blogs for Bush, Pardon My English and elsewhere. Not one right-winger had a problem with this.

These are the kinds of people we're dealing with, folks. If they had their way, they'd recreate Nazi Germany right here in America. That's why we must make certain they NEVER get their way.
http://www.rall.com/rants.html

His crime? A cartoon that offended them. I think these people need someone to read the First Amendment to them out loud.

[wesmorris]

And their complacency, and willingness to believe easy lies, is what bothers me the most.

How do you know the truth from the lies when everyone is lying?

Seems like people are strongly believing lies on both sides of the issue.

I think the smidge toward fascism is the result of a new government uncertainty in their ability to effectively maintain stability (or at least provide the illusion thereof). I think a predaliction for control (from the government's standpoint) is inevitable when out of the blue, the twin towers can get collapsed and the pentagon hit (THE PENTAGON WAS HIT, CAN YOU IMAGINE HOW THOSE GUYS HAVE TO FEEL??: "we thought we were doing our jobs!" and now they have to compensate) with basically no warning, and no capacity to stop it.

[Repo Man]

Wes, what could be easier, from the beginning of this whole debacle, than to sit back and trust that the government in general, and GW in particular, would do the right thing? That they would know who the enemies were, and go after them.

It would have been easy. Questioning the wisdom of our chosen path is what is hard. It is much easier, and more socially acceptable, to watch the emperor walk by nude than it is to point out that he has no clothes.

Stepping outside of nationalism, and realizing that our government does horrible things isn't easy. As I became politically aware in the early 80's, I used to listen to the local college station, and their constant blathering about Nicaragua. As I got older and read more, I began to realize that we really were doing horrible things there. We were the bad guys. We had installed a brutal dictator, and when the Nicaraguans overthrew his son, we began to arm and supply the remnants of the hated national guard.

Reading the history behind the Vietnam war, and realizing what a stupid and horrible waste of life that conflict was for all involved. Did you know that when the French withdrew, the U.N. had made a deal for a nationwide election to take place. The U.S. rejected it, fearing our side would lose.

Geneva Convention Agreements Announced: Vietminh General Ta Quang Buu and French General Henri Delteil sign the Agreement on the Cessation of Hostilities in Vietnam. As part of the agreement, a provisional demarcation line is drawn at the 17th parallel which will divide Vietnam until nationwide elections are held in 1956. The United States does not accept the agreement, neither does the government of Bao Dai.
http://www.english.uiuc.edu/maps/vietnam/timeline.htm

For more context on our present foreign policy, read this Noam Chomsky interview. (http://www.guerrillanews.com/human_rights/doc3566.html) . Before dismissing it with a rolleyes smilie, can you refute any of it?

I want our government to be the good guys. But I don't think we are right now.

[zanket]

I don't like Bush or Kerry, but I am really sick about comparisons between the Bush administration and the Third Reich. I mean, really, do they have anything in common, other than the power they posess?

Sure they do. Invasion of Poland = invasion of Iraq. Stripping Jews of basic rights = Padilla and other “detainees.” Death camps = Abu Ghraib and others. Slave labor = setting Iraq minimum wage to 25 cents per hour (same as Saddam). Irrationality = declaring that judges making judgments that you disagree with are “activist” judges. Suppressing opposition = exposing that your critic's wife is a CIA operative. Eagle’s Nest = US military headquarters in Saddam’s palace. Censorship = FBI tracking of library checkouts. And more. Bush is Hitler circa 1933, working up to full-scale evil. And just like with the Third Reich, the majority supports him.

[Undecided]

Oh Zanket you forgot:

Hitler didn't win the popular vote= Bush didn't win the popular vote.
Hitler appointed Chancellor = Bush appointed President
Reichstag Fire= 9/11
Communist scapegoats= Arab scapegoats
Illegal detentions of "Political detractors"= illegal dentions of Arabs
Enabling act= Patriot Act

Fascism is surely on it's way to the US, not Nazism, but fascism none the less. Of course if Bush is elected.

[hypewaders]

"Of course if Bush is [re]-elected."

I sure hope not, which is why I'm still here- I still believe in America, that we're not entirely stupid, just out of touch, and getting an education the hard way.

I'm so confident in that statement, that, well I just remembered I've got to renew my passport.

[Undecided]

No Hype he wasn't elected in the first place...remember. ;)

[wesmorris]

If Bush wins, you're leaving Hype?

[Johnny Bravo]

Is that your image in that bobbing pic, Wes?

[Persol]

If Bush wins, you're leaving Hype?Actually, depending on what happens in the next 4 years, I will as well. Our current governement is extending it's power and acting in ways that are not justified. The trend seems to be towards heavy conservatism, with a large touch of violence.

Sure... 'grass always looks greener on the other side' and all that... but from my few trips to Europe in the past year I have a new view in our countries policies, and a new option for somewhere to live.

[hypewaders]

"If Bush wins, you're leaving Hype?"

Yes, my wife and I have considered, and are preparing for that contingency.

[Undecided]

Where may I ask?

[wesmorris]

Actually, depending on what happens in the next 4 years, I will as well. Our current governement is extending it's power and acting in ways that are not justified. The trend seems to be towards heavy conservatism, with a large touch of violence.

Sure... 'grass always looks greener on the other side' and all that... but from my few trips to Europe in the past year I have a new view in our countries policies, and a new option for somewhere to live.

You should start a thread on it, or did I miss it?

[hypewaders]

"Where may I ask?"

The EU- Czech Republic (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=20288) the one place where we've lived before that is not in the Mideast (I had always dreamed of going back to Lebanon, but I'm conspicuously American). In Czech we have family ties, so it would be most practical to start over there.

[Mystech]

I think that the comparison of Bush to Hitler is a fair one. I don't think that it's debatable that Hitler was a lot worse. . . but then Hitler may be one of the only men in history that could run against Bush and actually steer my vote toward 4 more years of the incumbent administration.

Bush, like Hitler used scare tactics to gain unprecedented military control (using 9/11 to get congress to vote on a resolution that would let him do whatever is necessary in his war on terror)

Like Hitler he subscribes to a radical hard line right wing ideology, you’re either with us or against us!

Like Hitler he has drastically increased police forces, going so far as to make a new cabinet level department of homeland security. Aside from that he has completely bypassed the constitution and Geneva convention both by incarcerating people without charges for indeterminate periods of time, and creating the “enemy combatant” status for those held in Gitmo.

Like Hitler he took an extremely obscure, old fashioned and rarely used term to describe our nation (homeland, as opposed to Nazi Germany’s Fatherland) and popularized it and promoted it to help incite a new “patriotism” or fierce nationalism designed to make people more obedient and less questioning.

Hmmm and come to think of it, the similarities with noteworthy dictators and madmen doesn’t end there.

Like Stalin, Bush appeals to vague looming threats to consolidate his position and get his way.

Like Stalin he is trying to keep us in a state of a perpetual war, in this case it helps him so that he’ll never have to relinquish his emergency powers (hell that’s kind of like the emperor from Starwars: Attack of the clones! Bush is just that evil!)

Seriously, all Bush needs is some kind of creative moustache and he’s a mad leader for the ages. Look at the shape this nation is in after only four years with him in office, do we really want to tempt fait with another four?

[hypewaders]

"all Bush needs is some kind of creative moustache..."

That inspired me to try a little juvenile lampooning. I think the Saddam/Stalin one suits him best:
http://picserver.org/view_image.php/24FVN84ZOL2Z/picserver.jpeg

[Stokes Pennwalt]

You'd think that frothy leftists would've learned by now that the BU$H = H1TLAR references only make them look like a pack of intuitively deficient idiots. By far the easiest partisan hyperbole to debunk, the greater leftist cause would have a lot more merit to it were it not for stupid shit like this.

Yeah, there are a lot of problems with this administration. Yeah, I'd prefer it not get a second term (even though I abhor Kerry). But the comparisons to Hitler are really, really retarded. Especially when you consider that they're coming from some of the same morons who got all purple-faced about people comparing Saddam to Hitler.

Such gross exaggerations seems to really illuminate the stupid.

[Undecided]

Such gross exaggerations seems to really illuminate the stupid.

No they aren't actually, sorry but historical comparisons are on our side. I think the most vivid example of this is the Reichstag fire, 9/11 incidents. They both rallied the population against a common enemy, and enabled both Hitler and Bush to enact legislation that dramatically reduced the rights of citizens. Neither Bush nor Hitler were elected into power either, they were both appointed. Both have used extreme nationalism and patriotism to stifle debate. These are things no one can deny, they have happened in front of our eyes. I fear the only reason why someone would say BU$H = H1TLAR references only make them look like a pack of intuitively deficient idiots. is because they have a emotional-intellectual complex that denies any relation because “Hitler’s bad”. Surely no one wants an American president to be compared to a Fascist dictator of the 30's (trust me no one). But we shouldn't have to shut up, merely because some people can't grasp or even cope with an accurate comparison btwn the two. Remember it's really just a comparison, no one here is saying that these two men’s policies are the same in scope, but they both have a common thread. If we ignore history we are bound to repeat it, and dismissing rather thinking about comparisons is just one faucet of that. Let's not get so nationalistic and emotional that we can't see the glaring comparisons btwn the two. I am certain we can compare Bush to another tyrannical leader as well, Hitler is really just the easiest one. Actually I wouldn't be surprised if I could compare Kerry to Peron!

[YoungWriter]

Hitler's invasion of Poland wasn't just out of the blue. A good chunk of Poland had belonged to Germany for a long time, and was taken away after WWI. Last time I checked, U.S. never was a part of Afghanistan or Iraq.

[Stokes Pennwalt]

Remember it's really just a comparison, no one here is saying that these two men’s policies are the same in scope, but they both have a common thread.
Well, hey, so long as you're admitting it's asinine hyperbole, I'm going to start comparing our leftists to Stalin and Pol Pot and call it even.

[hypewaders]

I think that would be illuminating, Stokes. How many parallels can you draw between American "leftists" (pick one) and Stalin or Pol Pot?

[Stokes Pennwalt]

I think that would be illuminating, Stokes. How many parallels can you draw between American "leftists" (pick one) and Stalin or Pol Pot?
Sen. Dianne "ban all guns" Feinstein supports a ban of private firearm ownership.

Stalin enforced a ban of private firearm ownership.

OMG THE HORROR WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN??!?!?//11

[crazy151drinker]

If Bush=Hitler
then Kerry=Chairman Mao

Hype did you forget your little red book? Youre in trouble now!

[Undecided]

Well, hey, so long as you're admitting it's asinine hyperbole, I'm going to start comparing our leftists to Stalin and Pol Pot and call it even.

I didn't admit that at all, what I said that their policies are not the same in "scope" not that they weren't the same. History is defined by cause, effect, and trends. For both Hitler and Bush they fit rather well, to merely discount that is hyperbolic idiocy at its best. I don't think we as a society should irk away from comparisons just because we don't like it. It is you Stokes who have yet to show how the comparisons are "hyperbole". It is anti-intellectual to merely discount the comparison because you feel uncomfortable. Emotion always destroys intellectual thought. It is obviously to all of us who are reading comments like yours that it's not because our comparisons are wrong, rather that you are incapable of grasping the method of history, or you are being blindly ignorant, not wanting to hear the truth, so you can pretend to remain in genuine denial. I don't think you are ignorant, but you have to open up to ideas that don't match your own if you are even going to attempt to be relevant. Also like Hype I will be waiting intently at that comparison btwn Stalin/Pol Pot and the American left. Enlighten us shall you?

[zanket]

Such gross exaggerations seems to really illuminate the stupid.

As usual your argument is void of anything substantive. Many comparisons between Bush and Hitler were made above, yet we’re supposed to believe your empty claim that any comparison is stupid.

[wesmorris]

You people are so full of shit. You compare bush to hitler for the inflammatory, dramatic value of it and nothing more. Otherwise, you'd just say "bush sucks for this or that reason". You get more fake, shallow bang for your buck when you make an inflammatory comparison. Then you have the nerve to get indignant when you're called on it.

Asshats, all of you (who are condoning the validity of the comparison).

[zanket]

Sen. Dianne "ban all guns" Feinstein supports a ban of private firearm ownership.

False. She supports a ban on assault weapons, a subset of firearms.

[Undecided]

I think that Zanket's reply to Stokes applies to the one above Zanket's as well...it's just to easy to call people names isn't it? :rolleyes:

[wesmorris]

Is that your image in that bobbing pic, Wes?

Yes it is. I prefer "shucking and jiving". :D

[wesmorris]

I think that Zanket's reply to Stokes applies to the one above Zanket's as well...it's just to easy to call people names isn't it? :rolleyes:

It's quite easy.

Look at what you're doing, you moron.

"bush is hitler"

Idiot.

[zanket]

"Bush is Hitler" is just shorthand for saying there's lots of similarity between the two.

[Undecided]

Oh no, you calling me an idiot is the epitome of irony. "bush is hitler" I didn't say that, you did, “moron”. What I am saying is that there are accurate comparisons btwn the two. It is your emotive-intellectual complex which denies you the ability to think rationally. I know how your "brain" (should I stretch the meaning so very far) works, "Bush cannot be like Hitler because... it just can't be. Stupid Asshats". The saddest thing in all this is that you think you are an intellectual, oh how illusions can be so very strong. Also who is to say that calling a person Hitler is insulting them? Hitler did some good things as well as bad; it's all a matter of perspective. But I forgot you are just too "intelligent", you transcendent "Asshat".

[wesmorris]

Oh no, you calling me an idiot is the epitome of irony. "bush is hitler"

You do so by making the comparison.

I didn't say that, you did, “moron”.
Head in the sand eh? Your type can't help it.

What I am saying is that there are accurate comparisons btwn the two.
How rational of you.

It is your emotive-intellectual complex which denies you the ability to think rationally.
As if you are remotely capable of comprehending my thinking child? Your ass should be swatted for insolence.

I know how your "brain" (should I stretch the meaning so very far) works, "Bush cannot be like Hitler because... it just can't be. Stupid Asshats".
Your quick jump to conclusions is typical of your lacking insight and the source of the pertinent application of the term "asshat" you goddamned asshat.

The saddest thing in all this is that you think you are an intellectual, oh how illusions can be so very strong.
How the shit do you know what I think I am. In that capacity I do know that you are NOT an intellectual, but an encyclopedia who spews facts a figures and a face deep analysis.

Also who is to say that calling a person Hitler is insulting them?
LOL. Why are you so insulted that I call you asshat, or idiot? You claim intellectual superiority and then play dumb. Impressive flexibility.

Hitler did some good things as well as bad; it's all a matter of perspective.
Sure, and idiots are good for asshats, it just depends on how you look at it. Why are you whining at me then child? You know what, if someone didn't intend to be insulting about it, they would likely preface their comment with "okay, I don't mean it like 'hitler is the anti-christ' or anything, I simply mean blah blah blah". Let's see how you distort this. It's amazing the lies you have to tell yourself in order to trick you into thinking you don't suck.

But I forgot you are just too "intelligent", you transcendent "Asshat".

I have not made my intellect the issue, you have - you goddamned asshat.

[Undecided]

Typical Wes post isn't it, trying in vain to sound almighty, and intellectual, when in reality the smoke and mirrors make their re-appearance. Let's see how much of your post actually deals with the issue?

You do so by making the comparison.

No, what I am saying is that there are logical and rational comparisons btwn the two. If I were to say Bush is Hitler like you did, then I would have said that they both share everything in common. Which they don't, but there is an undercurrent of the same themes. Too bad if that tad pole of a brain cannot grasp it; your brain is indeed like a pond. Smelly, shitty, full of liquid, but deep down inside it has some modicum of life.

Head in the sand eh? Your type can't help it.

You mean? Rational by type? It wasn't me you intellectual midget wearing stilettos, t'was you.

As if you are remotely capable of comprehending my thinking child?

Your right I am not capable, I can't think of nothing...

Your quick jump to conclusions is typical of your lacking insight and the source of the pertinent application of the term "asshat" you goddamned asshat.

See this argumentation is typical of the Wes, lacking in any substance, or logic. Merely because I successfully question the authority of Wes, he get's all defensive. It's so sad... You can't get over that loser term can you loser?

How the shit do you know what I think I am.

Well I know your ”shit” box who demands respects, while is so intellectually backward not to realize that having to demand it means you don't have it. :D You are so easy...give me more!

In that capacity I do know that you are NOT an intellectual, but an encyclopedia who spews facts a figures and a face deep analysis.

You on the other hand are what? The master ad hom-er as shown in your constant replies, which last on forever but serve to purpose but to bloat your ego by showing yourself that you can type a lot?

LOL. Why are you so insulted that I call you asshat, or idiot? You claim intellectual superiority and then play dumb. Impressive flexibility.

I am intellectually insulted that anyone who claims to be an intellectual would even utter such an untermensch term as asshat. It doesn't insult me; no rather I have much empathy for you. Hopefully one day you can crawl out of the hole of self-aggrandizement and see yourself for what you really are... ;)

Sure, and idiots are good for asshats,

You know if you repeat the stupid term long enough it says something about you. How unoriginal can one get?

You know what, if someone didn't intend to be insulting about it, they would likely preface their comment with "okay, I don't mean it like 'hitler is the anti-christ' or anything, I simply mean blah blah blah".

No Wes your mere presence is an insult to this forum and humanity at large. As a result I have to talk to you on terms you understand, that of an asshole.

Let's see how you distort this. It's amazing the lies you have to tell yourself in order to trick you into thinking you don't suck.

Let me tell you, you've proved it! :eek:

I have not made my intellect the issue, you have - you goddamned asshat

http://www.questmodels.com/americas_ppp/images/2000cry.jpg

[wesmorris]

Perhaps it's your ignorance of American culture, or at least of the common knowledge of pretty much everyone I've ever spoken to. You see, invoking "hitler" is equivalent to invoking "satan". I personally do not give much of a shit about either one, as hitler, like anyone else, was just doing his thing. However, if you invoke that name and pretend it's innocent, you're an idiotic asshat, or you are sheltered beyond usefulness.

It's my guess that you're not sheltered. As such you're rendered: Despicable asshat, you idiot.

[Undecided]

LOL! Thank you for proving yet again that I can destroy you and your untermesnchen mentality. You are nothing more then a propped up pseudo, who obviously tries quite desperately to defame people in a lame, and easily exposed attempt to look like an intellectual. I will pray for you, someday you will learn you are nothing more then scum. What you don't seem to realize you “Despicable asshat" is you proved my thesis on you’re "thinking"(lol) right:

You see, invoking "hitler" is equivalent to invoking "satan".

Which proves:

It is your emotive-intellectual complex which denies you the ability to think rationally. I know how your "brain" (should I stretch the meaning so very far) works, "Bush cannot be like Hitler because... it just can't be. Stupid Asshats".

Not because the comparison is wrong, because you can't deal with it. OH MAN! Thank you SOOOOO much. Now go into the pond from which you came.

[wesmorris]

I see. In "asshateez"

Social awareness = "your emotive-intellectual complex which denies you the ability to think rationally"

Note the following, you moron:

"I personally do not give much of a shit about either one, as hitler, like anyone else, was just doing his thing."

[zanket]

You see, invoking "hitler" is equivalent to invoking "satan".

To me they’re just both irrational politicians who killed lots of people on offense while establishing dictatorship. Neither seem very comparable to Satan. A Google search for “Bush Hitler” yields 555,000 hits. Apparently many people are making this comparison ("Bush Satan" returns only 244,000). Here (http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/editorials/2004-05-23-bush-edit_x.htm) Carl Bernstein compares Bush to Nixon. That saves Bernstein from Godwin's Law (http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/g/Godwin_s_Law.html).

[Undecided]

But obviously you and American society has an emotive-intellectual complex. This is most vivdly shown in this quote: You compare bush to hitler for the inflammatory, dramatic value of it and nothing more. Obviously you took the comparison as a emotional tirade not one of real merit. Yet it is you who has yet to show us how it is just that, an emotional tirade? You have rejected our comparison for what reason? I know, maybe because your “shitty” intellect cannot grasp the concept of history. You keep on repeating “Asshat” as a term to deflect real conversations, and it’s really quite pathetic. So I urge you to use “Asshat” more so we can all laugh at your intellectual and creative ineptitude. Who are you trying to kid here child? Perhaps it's your ignorance of American culture, or at least of the common knowledge of pretty much everyone I've ever spoken to. You see, invoking "hitler" is equivalent to invoking "satan". Now in order for your argumentation to jive with the "slave morality" of your fellow Americans, you have to reject the first part of the argument you made. Essentially you must say that the comparison doesn’t bother you on emotional grounds (which they do). You have to say that comparing Hitler is not like comparing to Satan, that’s stupid and emotional. If you state that, then please give a reasoned argument as to why the comparison is false. We’ve been waiting for a very long time indeed, and hopefully you can avoid those typical and useless replies that go on forever. You sir are the anti-intellectual here, not me. You are the one who seems to take ques from Ricki Lake, and it shows. I suggest you watch "Blues Clues" with your kids, because you are in desperate need of one.

[Stokes Pennwalt]

False. She supports a ban on assault weapons, a subset of firearms.
Wrong.

"Banning guns addresses a fundamental right of all Americans to feel safe."
--U.S. Sen. Dianne Feinstein Associated Press 11/18/93

Now you see how uttery retarded the comparison is, yes?

Honestly, I expected the level of rational discourse in this forum to be somewhat above what the vitriolic suburban white kids blabbing platitudes tends to be, but it seems I overestimated. You're taking one or a few infinitesimal traits of the entire administration and extrapolating them to ridiculous proportions just to say "nyah nyah, Bush supports X and Hitler supported X, therefore Bush = Hitler".

It's quite sophomoric, really.

I didn't admit that at all, what I said that their policies are not the same in "scope" not that they weren't the same.
Exactly, and if we could just leave it at this, I'll generally agree with you. But saying such things really doesn't accomplish much other than dragging the debate down to a quibbling over semantics and technicalities.

[Undecided]

Exactly, and if we could just leave it at this, I'll generally agree with you.

Well fine then, as long as it's over. All we were trying to say is that those Hitler-Bush comparisons are valid. They obviously evoke an emotional response by all of us, and anyone who denies that is obviously lying. The comparison is a fair one, like I said I could compare Kerry to Peron I'd bet. *edit* Also, "nyah nyah, Bush supports X and Hitler supported X, therefore Bush = Hitler". no one has said they are the same, we are stating that there are consistencies in their actions, and their reaction to a cause. No one here has said "Bush = Hitler", apart from Wes. All we are saying is that there are comparisons that simply cannot be ignored.

[wesmorris]

All we are saying is that there are comparisons that simply cannot be ignored.

Yes, they both breath. I believe they were also both males, over 5 feet and alive at the time they were leading.

Impressive.

[zanket]

Wrong.

"Banning guns addresses a fundamental right of all Americans to feel safe."
--U.S. Sen. Dianne Feinstein Associated Press 11/18/93

That’s taken out of context. She doesn’t support a repeal of the 2nd amendment, rather she supports a ban on assault weapons. That's given by her actions. She probably said something like, “An assault weapon is too dangerous in the hands of a criminal. Banning guns addresses a fundamental right of all Americans to feel safe.” But the gun nuts grabbed onto the misstep for all it's worth.

With Bush and Hitler, however, their actions are similar in many respects.

[Hastein]

Bushhitlerenemy! Vaporizeagents! Weshail!

[Mystech]

Sen. Dianne "ban all guns" Feinstein supports a ban of private firearm ownership.

Stalin enforced a ban of private firearm ownership.

OMG THE HORROR WON'T SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN??!?!?//11

Can anyone here imagine a more horrifying future than one where children don't have fire arms?

[Undecided]

Yes, they both breath. I believe they were also both males, over 5 feet and alive at the time they were leading.


More then you'll ever be. I think I deserve a *KOWTOW* from you, considering I shamed you again... now go frolic with your brethren:Your fellow intellectual slaves! You have nothing but your chains to lose. (http://www.autrata.com/misc/botanicgarden/images/tadpole.jpg) Thanks Wes for telling me how utterly wasteful your existence truly is. Thanks also for disproving the comparisons; I think your cognitive surrender is complete.

Impressive.

I know, being Human is great!

Me thinks this thread has far outlived its usefulness, and thus should be closed.

[wesmorris]

It's quite simple, you lying child:

If you knew that in general society: "hitler = satan" and then you endorse the comparison "bush ~ hitler", without prefacing your statement with "I don't mean bush is satan, I'm talkin about political comparisons (most of which you listed in your first post are invalid)" and then you get indignant when accused of "playing the hitler card" by someone saying "You compare bush to hitler for the inflammatory, dramatic value of it and nothing more", you are obviously doing exactly that and trying to pretend it's not happening. Your lame, shallow, idiotic ruse exposed, you have little resources but to post little cartoons and tripe like "Thanks Wes for telling me how utterly wasteful your existence truly is."

Tell me then, simpleton: Why is the comparison necessary? WHY? If Bush's actions are bad enough, they should stand as horrific on their own. Perhaps though, if you compare him to Hitler, you get the added psychological impact of demonizing him, you lying little bitch. This is no defense of Bush, this is a esposure of your disgusting lies. Deal with yourself so as to improve child, or you'll be stuck as the asshat you are for the rest of your life. You're doing exactly what I said, you know it, but you can't admit it because you've already "claimed victory".

Do you know how you "win" by participating in a thread in sciforums?????

Do you??????

I don't think you do so I'll help you.

Learn something (sometimes even something besides facts and figures can improve you)

[wesmorris]

I'll leave you with a link to your definition (http://www.confusednation.com/asshat/) and give you the last word.

Yes I edited heavily, as I thought I was un-necessarily vitriolic. Pardon to cause you to delete your posts.

[Undecided]

You are merely exposing the emotive-intellectual complex I was talking about before. I have to see a real cognitive and rational refutation of my comparisons to Hitler. It is rather simple Wes:

Why is the comparison necessary? WHY? If Bush's actions are bad enough, they should stand as horrific on their own. Perhaps though, if you compare him to Hitler, you get the added psychological impact of demonizing him,

You think like that, I don't. The more hyperbolic you get the more obvious it get's that you are rejection the comparison based on emotional, not intellectual reasons. You get the added psychological effect not me; I see an accurate comparison btwn the two. Should I stop an intellectual discussion with my peers because you find it uncomfortable? If you found it as such, then refrain from calling people “asshats” that is anti-intellectual and I for one wasn’t going to let that happen. But I realize that you want me to insult you and argue with you. You obviously get a high, and thus why give you the satisfaction? Why is the comparison necessary? Simple because it stands as a warning to the impressionable generation of Americans. Sure Bush isn't Hitler, but what we are trying to say is that the path leads to the same road, destruction. You're doing exactly what I said, and it shows Wes in your last posts. So I suggest for the sake of this conversation that we merely stop and agree to disagree. If you can handle that... because this is my last post here. Adieu.

This thread should be closed, it serves no purpose other then a ad hom match.

[Stokes Pennwalt]

That’s taken out of context. She doesn’t support a repeal of the 2nd amendment, rather she supports a ban on assault weapons. That's given by her actions. She probably said something like, “An assault weapon is too dangerous in the hands of a criminal. Banning guns addresses a fundamental right of all Americans to feel safe.” But the gun nuts grabbed onto the misstep for all it's worth.

"If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an out right ban, picking up every one of them... "Mr. and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in,
"I would have done it. I could not do that. The votes weren't here."
--U.S. Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-CA), CBS-TV's "60 Minutes," 2/5/95

Please, dude. Feinstein is the touchy-feely antigun weenie's wet dream and the Bill of Rights' worst nightmare. She's made it protrusively obvious in the past that banning subsets of weapons and pushing for overall comprehensive firearm registration and qualification restrictions are merely preambles to an eventual abolition of all individual rights to firearm ownership. There's a reason why it's more than your stereotypical whacko militia nutjobs who can't stand her consistent defecation on the 2nd ammendment. Banning a specific subset of weapons is tantamount to repealing the 2nd ammendment anyway.

That said, as you remember I am not honestly comparing her to Stalin, because this is my point:

Yeah, there's a lot of authoritarian shit Bush has done while in office that I don't agree with. He spends so much he's done more for the overall fiscal liberal agenda than Clinton ever did in his eight year tenure. He's got the whole religious right and homophobia thing going, and he's consequently hindered scientific progress on a number of fronts more than any executive should. But he is NOT Hitler reincarnated. Like it or not, he was Constitutionally elected, and from the looks of it it would seem his days in office will be up soon. We have the a little safeguard called term limits here in the United States that prevents something like this from happening. After he's out it's going to be interesting hearing you guys fab up some other tinfoily theories in order to justify your marginal world views.

Edit:
Can anyone here imagine a more horrifying future than one where children don't have fire arms?
That would be one where none of us do.

[Repo Man]

Actually Stokes, if that were possible, I'd be willing to give up my firearms. But since I know that the bad guys will always have them, I'd like to keep mine. But really, that is the subject for another thread.

The original intent of this thread isn't to compare Bush to Hitler. As I said before, the author is asking his brother in law how bad things would have to get before he would renounce his support of Bush and his policies. And I honestly wonder about many of my fellow Americans.

I really don't think that there was anything special about the German people that allowed Nazism to take over. In their defense, I view the economic chaos of the depression, and the reparations from the treaty of Versaille, as having allowed those madmen into power. Much like a weakened immune system might allow an infection that a healthy body could fight off.

Though I don't think it is very likely even now, our collective reaction to the events of the past few years has served to remind me that a similar madness could very well take over this country. Unlikely is very far from impossible. The sort of people that write death threats to Ted Rall would be right at home with an authoritarian regime, I have little doubt of that. Luckily they are a small minority. But not small enough.

Neither a man nor a crowd nor a nation can be trusted to act humanely or to think sanely under the influence of a great fear. And for this reason poltroons are more prone to cruelty than brave men, and are also more prone to superstition. When I say this, I am thinking of men who are brave in all respects, not only in facing death. Many a man will have the courage to die gallantly, but will not have the courage to say, or even to think, that the cause for which he is asked to die is an unworthy one. Obloquy is, to most men, more painful than death; that is one reason why, in times of collective excitement, so few men venture to dissent from the prevailing opinion. Bertrand Russell

Bush's advisors used a masterful propaganda campaign to convince most Americans that Iraq was a threat. They did so to achieve a goal that they believed would justify the lying, and the expense in both lives, and money. Now that we know that Iraq didn't pose a threat, we did it to liberate the Iraqi's.

In my opinion, this bait and switch alone is reason enough for GW and his puppeteers to face criminal charges. But in the real world of everyday Americans, barely a ripple.

Term limits, and all other constitutional guarantees could be suspended with the swipe of a pen. One or two more big terroist attacks on the U.S. (chem, biological, a dirty bomb, or heaven help us, a genuine nuke) could provide both the justification, and the collective desire for security to pull it off.

I don't lie awake at night worrying about this, but times such as these serve to remind me that it could happen.

[Undecided]

But he is NOT Hitler reincarnated.

No one has even came close to saying that...so you’re right. There is no argument against that, no one here is going to disagree with you: Sure Bush isn't Hitler, but what we are trying to say is that the path leads to the same road, destruction. That is what we are trying to say, Stokes historical precedent sets as such. So please at least try to understand our position.

[crazy151drinker]

I find it funny that the people who hate guns are the same leftist people who fear the government. How Ironic that the only thing that would prevent the Government from becoming a dictatorship is our ownership of guns.

[Hastein]

Guns cannot stop the U.S. from becoming a dictatorship. What could your hunting rifle (or even bazooka) do against our tanks and planes? Nothing. We are not a dictatorship by the simple fact that our military is composed of citizens that wish to secure their own freedoms and would not infringe on their own rights. Dictatorship has almost happened several times in our nation's history.

[DeeCee]

GW=Hitler?

Don't make me laugh.
Hitler had style what has George got?
He don't even run the country far as I can tell.
Dee Cee

[crazy151drinker]

"What could your hunting rifle (or even bazooka) do against our tanks and planes"

Plenty. Your hunting rifle (lets not forget we have .50 Cal rifles here in the US) could easily make a plane or chopper inopperable. Lets not forget that Planes and Tanks need fuel and fuelers are not armored. Then you have to have pilots and tankers etc..etc.. and they are all people. The US Military is not designed to take out Civilians. Look how much trouble they are having taking out 1 guy and a 1,000 of his followers? Urban combat sucks. You think they could handle a full blown Revolution? While they may have the equipment to TRY to handle it, you have to have people to pilot those vehicles.
When our forces become fully Automated, then I would worry.

[Hastein]

Don't kid yourself. If there was an actual reason to take over the entire population, then yes, the armed forces could very easily do it. Remember Europe after WWII? What good did their weapons do against the Soviets? Nothing. They threw down their weapons and surrendered. You also have to take mass psychology into account: how many of these obese morons would actually pick up a gun and fight back? Do they even care about their freedoms that they take for granted? The military could shut down all of the nation with a keyboard. They could flash demoralizing messages on your televsion screens. They could find ANYONE.

It is very unlikely that this situation would ever happen. If the entire population rebelled the military would have to mow down civilians, something that I doubt anybody would ever want to do. But it could be done.

[StarOfEight]

Christ, but this is asinine ...

Regarding the right to bear sub-debate ... Marx and Engels both strongly supported private firearm ownership. Does that mean HUAC should be re-convened to interview Heston & Co.?

More generally, those of you comparing Bush to Hitler because 9/11 = Reichstag fire, well what about Pearl Harbor = Reichstag fire?

[zanket]

Let’s just agree that Bush is not as bad as Hitler but worse than Nixon.

[Dark_Man]

Compairing hilter to bush is just silly and we all know it.

What really gets me is everyone says Bush is coorupt. The war is nothing but a way for halliburton to make money. Yet I've not seen one shred of proof of this. I mean I just read a thing on the political forum that says iran fed false intel through chalabi to bush about WMD. Implying the Bush was duped into believeing he had to act. If that is true then 99% of these acusation about a war for money can't be true. Which way is it? Hell your own propiganda contradicts itself. Get it together ppl.

What I like even better is that Kerry is preaching get more UN involvment blah blah. yet it it now a proven 100% fact that oil for food was totaly coorupt and the safe assumption is that France and Russias opposition to the war had nothing to do with loyalty or morals or even polotics. It was purely about money. Blood money at that. They would rather let the Iraqi ppl die under Saddams boot than to lose there precias oil and money from Saddam. I mean we realy don't have solid proof of how deep it goes but its right there clear as day. The truth will/IS coming out.

Yet Bush and Cheney have never tried to hide or lie about halliburton. In fact it seems very obvious why they are involved its becuase Cheney KNEW they could get the job done and done fast and cheep. Ppl go with what they know. He was concearned about geting things done in a timely manner. I mean all you ppl complian about is how its being drug out and its a quagmire blah blah lbha. Agian your own propiganda contradicts itself. Make up your mind.

Fact is even if halliburton is over chargeing like was suposedly accused at one point there is only ONE set of ppl that should have ANYTHING to say about that and that is america. After all its OUR tax dallars there taking. All you EU and Canuk ppl should just shut up. No offence ment but when you donate 1 billion dollars to help rebiuld iraq then you can speak on this subject. Props to the brits though. I'm impressed with Tony Blair.

Bottom line. I hear all these ppl say they think Bush is a liar and coorupt etc etc. Have you ever stoped to think that is not Bush that is coorupt its the guy next to you that planted the idea in your head that Bush is/was? You preach that you know the truth and then rant about paraniod conspiracy's accept you refuse to accknowledge the simple fact that the real conspiracy might just might be to spread anti Bush propiganda, and guess what you fell for it hook line and sinker...:)

[wesmorris]

Let’s just agree that Bush is not as bad as Hitler but worse than Nixon.

How about if we all agree on the fact that political comparisons between Bush and Hitler serve only as a cheap tool to demonize the leader of the competing tribe?

No eh?

Okay then unless you make a very persuasive case that Bush is worse than Nixon, I don't agree. Oh and at least I tried to make a persuasive case about the demonizing and the bizness. I think it's pretty persuasive as well if you aren't too stuck in the mud up past your eyes. I don't really remember though, maybe it wasn't as good as I thought.

[zanket]

Yet Bush and Cheney have never tried to hide or lie about halliburton. In fact it seems very obvious why they are involved its becuase Cheney KNEW they could get the job done and done fast and cheep. Ppl go with what they know. He was concearned about geting things done in a timely manner.

Just one problem; it’s illegal as hell. That Bush Co. even tried to get Halliburton into Iraq without going through a bidding process shows how corrupt Bush is. He doesn’t even try to make it look legal. Let’s not forget that the Republicans made a huge stink about Gore making campaign calls from the White House rather than stepping off government property to make them.