Dresden , Hiroshima and Ngasaki dire warnings to Soviet Russia

[Brian Foley]

By late 1944 Germany and Japan was militarily defeated. The allies bombed Germany and Japan at will and a sea blockade was crippling the Japanese ability to feed itself let alone continue to make war . . Why then was it necassary to annihilate 3 whole cities full of civilians ? . During three waves of attacks, over 1,300 bombers bombed Dresden .The terror bombing of the non-military cultural center of Dresden killed 135,000 . A totally unnecessary act as the Russian army was only 1 week away from liberating Dresden . Also In August 1945 , 2 atomic bombs flattened 2 cities, again killing 103,000 civilians in these 2 non-military cultural centres s totally unnecessary also as now being revealed by declassified documents Japan was sending out peace feelers that it wanted to surrender WHY ? Simple the object of the allies was to let the Communist government of Russia get a first hand view of western airpower and its destructive capability when they arrived in Dresden , likewise the atomic bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima was to demonstrate to Communist Russia the willingness of America to use this weapon and by using 2 to show that there was more of those from where they came from . In short it was a clear and dire warning to Communist Russia not to interfere with the new post WWII world order being created by America the new leader of the Western Plutocracies .

[spidergoat]

Perhaps you are right to some degree, in that the US wanted to demonstrate its new weapon, but I don't think we really knew that the Japanese wanted to surrender, we were going to invade Japan with troops, but that would cost alot of American lives because the Emperor was telling Japanese civilians to fight to the last man. Too bad the Russians had a spy within the Manhattan Project.

[Spyke]

I've lost count of the number of times this dead horse has been beaten on Sciforums.

[Brian Foley]

Perhaps you are right to some degree, in that the US wanted to demonstrate its new weapon, but I don't think we really knew that the Japanese wanted to surrender, we were going to invade Japan with troops, but that would cost alot of American lives because the Emperor was telling Japanese civilians to fight to the last man. Too bad the Russians had a spy within the Manhattan Project.
Japan was sending peace feelers through too neutral countries such as the swiss and swedish embassies as well as through the Vatican . To say "I don't think we really knew that the Japanese wanted to surrender" is a stretch after realising all Japanese codes military and diplomatic were broken and read daily .

[Brian Foley]

I've lost count of the number of times this dead horse has been beaten on Sciforums.
Sorry Im new around here .

[Dr Lou Natic]

Japan refused to sign a truce(or treaty or some such shit) depite being badly beaten. They nuked them and then they were still reluctant but had no choice.
I've never heard of peace feelers but I have seen the footage of the 2 japanese guys going onto a boat to sign whatever that thing was and they looked annoyed and I've also seen an interview with one of them and he said that they weren't thinking of surrendering untill after the nukes. He seemed like he let the grudge go pretty easy, he was like chuckling and in good spirits, joking about how angry he was and how the nuke meant they had to surrender. His last act of defiance was signing the thing in japanese writing. He also had a laugh about that for some reason.
I'm simplifying, but if I'm wrong the history channel is wrong, so blame them.

Also, on a side note, liberal-criticism of current events is one thing, but looking back on history to criticise it with your 2004 ideals is just weak.
This goes for all the slavery slammers and ghengis kahn detractors as well. Get over yourselves. Seeing as how you are part of the majority now, chances are you would have been part of the majority back then, in other words owning slaves and cheering for nukes and eating fallen rivals... ok maybe not the last one, but you never know.
It was incredibly friendly and diplomatic for those days to stop nuking. This was probably one of the first times full force wasn't used. The first time one fighting force went easy on the other on behalf of courtesy. Ok not the first time, but one of the rare times historically speaking.
Killing civilians has only recently become the ultimate atrocity.
Traditionally war involved killing civilians, if not during the war after you had won.
A cheer would go up and you'd get down to the less stressful, more laid back and fun business of killing civilians.
Wrong? Thats the way it was, there was no other way to do it, it was unheard of, how is it wrong if there was no such thing as what you call 'right' today?
Was it wrong for cavemen to rape? How could it possibly be unless they could see into the future? There was only right back then. This is the problem with judging history. Ofcourse 1944 doesn't have as many excuses as cave men do, but it does have the excuse that todays crazy leftists didn't exist back then. And thats a fair excuse. If there were no crazy leftists today the war would look very different. Bush would be going medievil on some civilian ass I can tell you right now.

[Brian Foley]

Thats bullshit people have never changed they have always been greedy as far back as the Roman and greek empires . Nothing changes in this world , Seeing as how you are part of the majority now, chances are you would have been part of the majority back then, in other words owning slaves and cheering for nukes and eating fallen rivals... ok maybe not the last one, but you never know.
Only the minority owned slaves the vast majority of us were toilers . When you realise who has been ruling this world you will see that since the invention of money and private property the rulers have always been the plutocratic order .

[Dr Lou Natic]

You're right, the vast majority were slaves, a man couldn't just have one slave obviously. I was talking about non-slaves. The vast majority of non-slaves had slaves. Basically anyone that could, did, it was the norm.

Oh and I never said people didn't used to be greedy. I'm saying what is considered wrong now wasn't necessarrily considered wrong in times gone by and if it wasn't considered wrong back then how can you judge them for behaving that way?
In the future visiting message boards might be considered wrong, should you feel guilty for doing it now? Would you like it if some time traveller came back and started yelling in your ear about what a low life piece of scum you are for posting on message boards?

[path]

Thats bullshit people have never changed they have always been greedy as far back as the Roman and greek empires .
And socialism never managed to change that either.

[Spyke]

Japan was sending peace feelers through too neutral countries such as the swiss and swedish embassies as well as through the Vatican . To say "I don't think we really knew that the Japanese wanted to surrender" is a stretch after realising all Japanese codes military and diplomatic were broken and read daily .

Sending 'peace feelers' through the Swiss, the Swedes, or the Vatican meant nothing. The Japanese were hoping for a better deal than what the Americans were offering, which was unconditional surrender. The Japanese were at war with the US, not any of the above. That's who they had to discuss surrender with, and the Americans were obviously in no mood to leave the present government in Tokyo intact.

[StarOfEight]

Foley, if the Soviets were so pure and innocent in all this, how come they didn't seem to have much of a problem swooping into Japan in the last couple weeks of the war?

[Brian Foley]

Foley, if the Soviets were so pure and innocent in all this, how come they didn't seem to have much of a problem swooping into Japan in the last couple weeks of the war?
Where did I say the Soviets were "pure and innocent" ? I cannot find neither rhyme nor reason as to why Dresden was bombed likewise the Atomic bombing of Japan ! It was plainly obvious these 2 nations were beaten Japan was sending out peace feelers
The war in the Pacific was also kept going much longer than necessary. Before the Germans were allowed to “surrender” and before the atom bombs were dropped, the Japanese were asking for peace. Gen. Douglas McArthur recommended negotiations on the basis of the Japanese overtures. But FDR brushed off this suggestion with the remark: “McArthur is our greatest general and our poorest politician.”This is the answer in a nutshell to why the war was allowed to go on and on, when it could have been over any day from 1943 on. http://www.barnesreview.org/May_2002/WW2_/ww2_.html

[Undecided]

I cannot find neither rhyme nor reason as to why Dresden was bombed

From what I heard the US bombed Dresden because it was in the East. They knew that Eastern Germany was going to the Soviets, and as a result destroyed it. East Germany as a result had housing shortages way into the 1980's, and lost factories. They didn't want a strong DDR* to actually confront the FRG*.

* Post-War names.

[StarOfEight]

Where did I say the Soviets were "pure and innocent" ? I cannot find neither rhyme nor reason as to why Dresden was bombed likewise the Atomic bombing of Japan ! It was plainly obvious these 2 nations were beaten Japan was sending out peace feelers

"it was a clear and dire warning to Communist Russia not to interfere with the new post WWII world order being created by America the new leader of the Western Plutocracies ."

So the Soviet land grab in Japan wouldn't count as interference in the NWO? And the acquiesence of Britian and the States to the USSR seizing most of Eastern Europe, that's a sign of the inevitably exploitative nature of capitalism, as contrasted with the pure-hearted intentions of kindly Uncle Joe?

[oralloy]

By late 1944 Germany and Japan was militarily defeated. The allies bombed Germany and Japan at will and a sea blockade was crippling the Japanese ability to feed itself let alone continue to make war . . Why then was it necassary to annihilate 3 whole cities full of civilians ?

The burning of Dresden was a UK affair, so I'll leave that to someone from the UK.

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were nuked because Japan hadn't offered to surrender yet.



Also In August 1945 , 2 atomic bombs flattened 2 cities, again killing 103,000 civilians in these 2 non-military cultural centres

Nonsense! Hiroshima was a major military center, with tens of thousands of soldiers, and the military headquarters in charge of the defense of the southern half of Japan.

Nagasaki has large armament factories on its outskirts, including the Mitsubishi Ordnance Works.

Before Japan attacked, Pearl Harbor had been regarded as immune to torpedoes, because its waters were too shallow for existing torpedo technology. Japan had to come up with entirely new torpedo technology just to attack us. The Mitsubishi Ordnance Works was the place that invented and built those torpedoes.



also as now being revealed by declassified documents Japan was sending out peace feelers that it wanted to surrender

Irrelevant. What was required was actual surrender, not some nonsense about wanting to negotiate.



the atomic bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima was to demonstrate to Communist Russia the willingness of America to use this weapon and by using 2 to show that there was more of those from where they came from . In short it was a clear and dire warning to Communist Russia not to interfere with the new post WWII world order being created by America the new leader of the Western Plutocracies .

The primary purpose of the bombs was to shock Japan into surrendering.



Japan was sending peace feelers through too neutral countries such as the swiss and swedish embassies as well as through the Vatican .

Not really, but they were going to the Soviets and asking them to mediate negotiations.



To say "I don't think we really knew that the Japanese wanted to surrender" is a stretch after realising all Japanese codes military and diplomatic were broken and read daily .

It takes more than them wanting to negotiate an end to the war. It takes them actually surrendering.

[River Ape]

The terror bombing of the non-military cultural center of Dresden killed 135,000 . A totally unnecessary act as the Russian army was only 1 week away from liberating Dresden .
"Liberating" --- isn't that what you do to towns that WELCOME you??? Paris was liberated. Athens was liberated. Dresden was NOT liberated. Its citizens were not pleased to pass under the control of Russians. Its women were not happy to be raped.

The bombing of a line of towns on which the Russians were advancing was requested by the Russians because it is much easier to take a town that has been reduced to disorganisation by bombing. The Allies complied with this Russian request. The records show that Churchill in particular was very strong that they should do so, in the face of some opposition. The selection of Dresden in particular (on the night in question) was determined by meteorological considerations. It was not foreseen that "perfect" conditions for bombing would exist, creating a firestorm.

Dresden was NOT non-military. Those who produce high estimates of the casualties always explain that the town was flooded by refugees. These refugees arrived in Dresden because it's geography makes it a natural centre for transport and communications. (Do I have to explain the military significance?) Its many factories had long since been converted from their historic roles to the production of a wide variety of specialised war materials.

Most of this has been explained to you in previous threads, with references to sources. Is it your memory that is giving you problems?

[G. F. Schleebenhorst]

The burning of Dresden was a UK affair, so I'll leave that to someone from the UK.

That is complete and utter bullshit.

Later on the 14th from 12:17 until 12:30 311 American B-17s dropped 771 tons of bombs on Dresden, with the railway yards as their aiming point. "Part of the American Mustang-fighter escort was ordered to strafe traffic on the roads around Dresden to increase the chaos"[15]. There are reports that civilians fleeing the firestorm engulfing Dresden in February 1945 were strafed by American aircraft, but these claims have been refuted by recent work by the historian Götz Bergander[16][17]. During this raid there was a brief, but possibly intense dogfight between American and German fighters around Dresden, some rounds may have struck the ground and been mistaken for strafing fire[18]. The Americans continued the bombing on February 15 dropping 466 tons of bombs. During these four raids a total of around 3,900 tons of bombs were dropped.

The firebombing consisted of by-then standard methods; dropping large amounts of high-explosive to blow off the roofs to expose the timbers within buildings, followed by incendiary devices (fire-sticks) to ignite them and then more high-explosives to hamper the efforts of the fire services. The consequences of these standard methods were particularly effective in Dresden: the bombings eventually created a self-sustaining firestorm with temperatures peaking at over 1500 °C. After a wide area caught fire, the air above the bombed area became extremely hot and rose rapidly. Cold air then rushed in at ground level from outside, and people were sucked into the fire.

After the main firebombing campaign between 13th and 15th, there were two further raids on the Dresden railway yards by the USAAF. The first was on March 2 by 406 B-17s which dropped 940 tons of high-explosive bombs and 141 tons of incendiaries. The second was on April 17 when 580 B-17s dropped 1,554 tons of high-explosive bombs and 165 tons of incendiaries.[19]




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

The railway yards were right in the centre of Dresden. Look at the tonnage of high explosives and incendiary bombs. That's like saying "We dropped our A-Bombs on the military targets in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, not the civilians": it's just a bullshit excuse. Hundreds of thousands of civilians were still killed in both cases.



It takes more than them wanting to negotiate an end to the war. It takes them actually surrendering.

So it's fine to just kill as many women and children as you want to achieve this? Japan are committing (your words) "atrocities" in China, and yet when the USA kills women and children it's fine?

[oralloy]

That is complete and utter bullshit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

The railway yards were right in the centre of Dresden. Look at the tonnage of high explosives and incendiary bombs. That's like saying "We dropped our A-Bombs on the military targets in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, not the civilians": it's just a bullshit excuse. Hundreds of thousands of civilians were still killed in both cases.


Hardly a bullshit excuse. We did drop the A-bombs on the military target of Hiroshima and the war industries of Nagasaki.

Our bombing of strategic targets in the center of German cities never once caused a firestorm or caused huge numbers of casualties. It takes more than a large tonnage of bombs to achieve that. You also have to intentionally spread that tonnage throughout the entire city instead of trying to concentrate it on a strategic target, and that is something only the UK did in Germany.

[Buffalo Roam]

The Magic intercepts of Japans communications at the end of the war.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB162/index.htm

[leopold99]

Japan was sending out peace feelers that it wanted to surrender
come on brian, even you know that some people, including the emperor, wanted to surrender long befor the a-bombs.

[thedevilsreject]

come on brian, even you know that some people, including the emperor, wanted to surrender long befor the a-bombs.

but not the majority

[leopold99]

but not the majority
and not the military.

[Buffalo Roam]

But the Emperor waited till after the A-Bombs to get involved, if you have any proof that the Emperor made any overt move for a surrender until after the bombings please provide, at that time the emperor was a God in Japan, he could have ended the war at any time just by what he did on Aug. 9/10, 1945 and issue a GO-Seidan, a sacred order ending the war, he chose not to until that date, so it shows that even the Emperor wasn't ready to surrender until after the Bombings, and as for the Russians they weren't going to co-operate with the Japanese because they were getting ready to invade themselves to grab as much of Japan as possible, and then we would have had another divided country in the world, along with all the problems of East and West Germany, what would that have done for the stability of the Far East, just look at the Korean War, tell me what would have happened with that situation, the Russian invasion would have occupied the west and northern parts of the islands and they would have been able to block any support for South Korea.

[Rick]

japanese wanted to surrender, as a matter of fact harry truman was approached by japanese govt officials asking for terms of surrender not twice/thrice but five times; But essentially harry truman wanted to nuke the cities to show stalin that it was the USA which was incharge of this world and not the soviets.

Rick

[Buffalo Roam]

Site proof please?

[oralloy]

japanese wanted to surrender, as a matter of fact harry truman was approached by japanese govt officials asking for terms of surrender not twice/thrice but five times;

Nope. They contacted us twice. Once to offer surrender so long as we guaranteed Hirohito's sovereign rights as ruler of Japan, and once to surrender unconditionally.

Both contacts came AFTER Nagasaki was bombed.



But essentially harry truman wanted to nuke the cities to show stalin that it was the USA which was incharge of this world and not the soviets.

The primary motive for dropping the bombs was to shock Japan into surrendering.

[leopold99]

The primary motive for dropping the bombs was to shock Japan into surrendering.
i disagree.
i believe the primary reason was to ascertain the blast effects on humans and buildings. why else was an untouched city such as hiroshima targeted?

[leopold99]

if you have any proof that the Emperor made any overt move for a surrender until after the bombings please provide,
Wartime records and memoirs show that the emperor and some of his aides wanted to end the war by summer 1945. But they were vacillating and couldn't prevail over a military that was determined to keep going even if that meant, as a navy official urged at one meeting, "sacrificing 20 million Japanese lives."
http://timblair.spleenville.com/archives/003665.php

[Buffalo Roam]

And the request was for proof of overt action on their part, yes they may have wanted to end the war but they did nothing concrete to bring the end about, the Emperor could have issued the Go-Seidan at this time and the bombings would have been avoided, but he did nothing till after the bombs had been dropped, He to was waiting for the Kamikaze, Devine Wind, and when it came it came for the Americans.

[oralloy]

i disagree.
i believe the primary reason was to ascertain the blast effects on humans and buildings. why else was an untouched city such as hiroshima targeted?

In the summer of 1945, the pressing issue on everyone's minds was how to make Japan surrender.

The reason the city was untouched was so that the full impact of the bombs would be obvious to the Japanese government.

Had we nuked an area without much to destroy, the Japanese wouldn't have been shocked by the power of the bomb.


"A World Destroyed: Hiroshima and the Origins of the Arms Race" by Martin Sherwin, and "Weapons for Victory: The Hiroshima Decision Fifty Years Later" by Robert James Maddox do a good job of showing what the intentions of the US government were at the time.

[crazy151drinker]

Yes, our A-bombs scared Stalin so much he went on to kill 25 million of his own people....ooooooooh he was scared....oooooohhh it must have been halloween.....oooooh scary.....

[madanthonywayne]

Sorry Im new around here .
2300+ posts and you're new around here?

[Genji]

2300+ posts and you're new around here?I'm catchin up to you madanthonywayne!!! :D

[madanthonywayne]

I'm catchin up to you madanthonywayne!!! :D
You sure as hell are! With your twelve posts a day, you'll soon leave me in the dust. I make only 1.5 posts a day. But then, I'm a hard workin' guy with a wife and four kids to support. Not as much time as I'd like to enlighten the masses here on Sciforums.

[MetaKron]

The U.S. government knowingly and deliberately extended the war, costing thousands of lives, just so that they could use that atom bomb on a live target.

[Baron Max]

The U.S. government knowingly and deliberately extended the war, costing thousands of lives, just so that they could use that atom bomb on a live target.

...LOL!! Hey, that's a good one, Meta, .....LOL!!!

And, of course, you have proof of your assertions ....that no one else in history has ever been able to find or uncover, right? I mean, like you're the world's greatest investigative reporter, yet you're stuck "publishing" your work on this sciforums website ...why is that?

Oh, perhaps it's because you're so williing to write bullshit that you can't find anywhere else that will allow it! ...LOL!

...LOL!

Baron Max

[River Ape]

There is an aspect to the dropping of the A-bombs that no one has explained so far: it enabled to Japanese to surrender with a vestige of honour.

The Japanese had never before surrendered in their history; a "divine wind" had scattered the vast invasion fleet of Kublai Khan in 1281. Surrender was almost impossible to contemplate for the Japanese, however dire the need to reach out and negotiate.

The dropping of the bombs enabled the Japanese to surrender to something other than military defeat by a foreign enemy. For it was not that in any ordinary sense, but defeat by a technological demon unknown in the annals of history. It was "beyond war". It was beyond anything for which army or Emperor could be held responsible. However great the humiliation, it had taken a unique step-change in human history to defeat a unique people.

[Buffalo Roam]

River Ape, I give you the Award for Excellence in Thought, Kudos, you have just made the greatest statement that I have ever heard on this subject, and it is absolutely correct, you have just given me a whole new area to look into on this, Brilliant! absolute effin Brilliant!

[Syzygys]

There were MORE than just one reason for bombing Hirosima. It is harder to argue for Nagasaki. So the reasons are:

1. To test the bomb in real life on humans and buildings. (also after effect study)
2. To make the Japanese surrender (with dignity if you wish)
3. To show US power AND willingness to the Russians (and also to the world)
4. Payback

Now we can argue which one of these was the main reason, but sure there were more than just one....

[leopold99]

There were MORE than just one reason for bombing Hirosima. It is harder to argue for Nagasaki. So the reasons are:

1. To test the bomb in real life on humans and buildings. (also after effect study)
2. To make the Japanese surrender (with dignity if you wish)
3. To show US power AND willingness to the Russians (and also to the world)
4. Payback

i'll agree with all of this except #4.
if america wanted payback we would have waited till we had 10 bombs.
or
we would've dropped the 2 bombs and invaded anyway.

[crazy151drinker]

So the Germans can bomb London every night for weeks on end and thats ok but heaven forbid we bomb Dresden...it was WWII you idiots.

This is the first I have heard of a "sea blockade" of Japan. I didnt realize we had that many ships! I harbor I could see but the whole Island of Japan! Wow, our Navy must have been really top notch...

[glenn239]

The U.S. government knowingly and deliberately extended the war, costing thousands of lives, just so that they could use that atom bomb on a live target.

So after putting up with Japan’s s**t since 1931, the United States is required to be in a rush to make peace in 1945 simply because it’s within Japan’s interests to resolve things? That’s not the way the world works.

come on brian, even you know that some people, including the emperor, wanted to surrender long befor the a-bombs.

The Japanese wished to surrender on the best terms they could get, and tried to enlist the Russians to assist them in this endeavor. Because their codes were broken, the conversations between Japanese officials in Moscow and Tokyo were being read almost in real time. Hence, when the Allied powers issued the Potsdam Declaration in July 1945, they did so while being perfectly aware that the omission of the Russian signature on the document would cause the Japanese to delay accepting an appropriate surrender until Stalin clarified the Russian position. It can therefore be suggested that this particular proceeding contained an element of duplicity in it; no efforts were made to achieve the conditions by which the Allies understood the Japanese might accept it. Stop hitting yourself Japan. Why are you hitting yourself, Japan?

If Washington was concerned about making Potsdam as likely to succeed in securing a surrender as possible, then they would have been pressuring Stalin very hard in July both to sign the Potsdam Declaration and also to terminate the talks the Japanese were trying to initiate in Moscow. Further, tried and true bombing tactics that might compel a Japanese surrender, as outlined by the USAAF in their own post-war strategic survey, were being ignored in favor of mass firebombings. None of these obvious measures were taken. This then suggests that the Allies were not concerned about ending the war in July 1945. If so, it seems difficult to imagine that this motive was responsible for the doings of August 6th and 9th.


I cannot find neither rhyme nor reason as to why Dresden was bombed likewise the Atomic bombing of Japan ! It was plainly obvious these 2 nations were beaten Japan was sending out peace feelers

“Repetition aversion therapy”

[Syzygys]

Response to leopold99:
So are you saying that after Pearl Harbour Americans weren't pissed off by the Japanese? Not to mention the racist attitude of the average American towards the "yellow monkeys".
Would you say the US would have nuked Germany had they had the bomb in time? I don't think so unless the military situation would have got very desperate...

[leopold99]

Response to leopold99:
So are you saying that after Pearl Harbour Americans weren't pissed off by the Japanese?
no.
Not to mention the racist attitude of the average American towards the "yellow monkeys".
the japanese at that time was known as 'the yellow peril' not 'yellow monkeys'.
Would you say the US would have nuked Germany had they had the bomb in time?
probably.
I don't think so unless the military situation would have got very desperate...
your opinion.

[Colquhoun]

By late 1944 Germany and Japan was militarily defeated. The allies bombed Germany and Japan at will and a sea blockade was crippling the Japanese ability to feed itself let alone continue to make war . . Why then was it necassary to annihilate 3 whole cities full of civilians ? . During three waves of attacks, over 1,300 bombers bombed Dresden .The terror bombing of the non-military cultural center of Dresden killed 135,000 . A totally unnecessary act as the Russian army was only 1 week away from liberating Dresden . Also In August 1945 , 2 atomic bombs flattened 2 cities, again killing 103,000 civilians in these 2 non-military cultural centres s totally unnecessary also as now being revealed by declassified documents Japan was sending out peace feelers that it wanted to surrender WHY ? Simple the object of the allies was to let the Communist government of Russia get a first hand view of western airpower and its destructive capability when they arrived in Dresden , likewise the atomic bombing of Nagasaki and Hiroshima was to demonstrate to Communist Russia the willingness of America to use this weapon and by using 2 to show that there was more of those from where they came from . In short it was a clear and dire warning to Communist Russia not to interfere with the new post WWII world order being created by America the new leader of the Western Plutocracies .


On the Dresden raid, a few points -

135,000 did not die, latest casualty estimates put the number of deaths at 25,000. I suspect you got the 135,000 figure from David Irving's book. Irving was shown in court to have fabricated the Dresden casualty figures to advance his own Neo Nazi agenda.

There was a large amount of fighting still to do after late 1944 e.g. The Ardennes and of course the battle for Berlin in which 90,000 Russians died. The war in Europe was by no means over in late 1944.

Dresden had 100 plus arms factories in including a poison gas factory and was a transport centre; the Germans were routing reinforcements to the eastern front through Dresden. The Soviets actually requested the attack on Dresden in order to support their offensive in the east.

[John99]

yeah he (Foley) forgot all that.