Ancient weapons thread(torture devices and surgical utensils also welcome)

[Dr Lou Natic]

Show me some cool weapons from history.
Old artwork with weapons being used would be good too.
This thread should be long, with everyone trying to beat the person before them with a cooler weapon and then a heated debate should break out over which was more effective and then it should go through like an awkward period but people will keep posting weapons and discussion will come back but then a wierd off topic discussion will begin and I'll be kind of pissed because I won't be interested and eventually we'll run out of weapons but every few months some one will discover a torture method or something from some time in history and post about that and so on for a few years untill in 2011 when it becomes uncool to talk about history at all.


But that will just be a phase and when its over we will have a renewed interest in history and extra enthusiasm for this thread.
ok you first.

[everneo]

http://www.humanities-interactive.org/ancient/iceage/400/ex038_03d.jpg

[guthrie]

I'll start with medieval stuff, since its what i know more about.
Doing reenacting with it all has ensured I dont really want to be on the business end of anything, unless I happen to be armed with an assault rifle at long range.

http://www.raven-armoury.co.uk/gifs/arms/medieval/med4i.jpg
If it works, its a photo stolen from raven armoury:
http://www.raven-armoury.co.uk/home.html
who are rather good.
You can see here some single handed medieval swords, around 1200 and 1300's. More made for cutting, and probably with a shield as well. I expect these to be well balanced and easy to use. If anyone tells you medieval european swords are heavy and hard to use, send them my way, I know some people who show them the error of their ways. You can flick a well balanced sword about in a fashion guaranteed to impress, when you know what your doing.

[Clockwood]

http://www.archaeological-center.com/welcome/images/hilton-weapons.jpg
http://www.himalayan-imports.com/faq/OldWeapons.jpg
http://www.derech.net/img/swords/thomaschen/sword_10.jpg
http://www.csen.org/Mongol.Nadaam/Mongol.archer.jpeg
http://www.quiknet.com/~fifi/gladius.jpg
http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/e/e98m/eyre15.jpg

[guthrie]

Is this a guess the weapons thread?
At top you have some bronze stuff, doesnt look european, and what are those weird things that look like spikes with rear handles?
Underneath, a big shield with some perhaps Kris's, as well as Indian knives, and some things that could be more like beheading swords. There was a thread last year with some pics on it of them and suchlike, can anyone dig it out?
Then a random collection of swords of little provenance and I'm no expert anyhow.
Then those recurve short bows beloved of central asian tribes, nifty on horseback. Actually, that reminds me, apparently the Japanese long bow thingy is the only one of it size in the world that can be used on horseback, because it has a short lower limb, and can therefore be put back and forwards over the horses head.
Then what could be a roman short, stabbing sword, for use in close wuarters form behind shields. the romans were very good at that. Hide behind a sheild, work together with your mates, when someones attacking the bloke next to you, and hitting his shield, you just stab him in the kidneys. Very useful, for then.
Then various wooden barbed spears, native to somewhere. With a spear thrower, which are cool things, I want to try throwing a spear with one.

[ScrollMaker]

http://www.rickterrysart.com/images/scimitar.gif
Mystical sword thingy based off a scimitar.

[alain]

i havent got a pic, but you know the swords that the uruk hai use in the LOTR movies, they are closely based on real swords

(note, the uruk hai carry them the wrong way round)

[Dr Lou Natic]

Hmmm, maybe we should say where weapons are from and what era... but then, I wouldn't be able to tell you that about any weapons I could find either. That should be the challenge to whoever though.

http://www.tbns.net/arvex/pics/hammer.jpg
Anyone know where this is from?

[Dr Lou Natic]

http://www.tbns.net/arvex/pics/mace.jpg
God damn :cool:

[guthrie]

Mystical sword thingys suck. theres too much extraneous detail that things can get caught in, or affect the balance. Just give me a nice plain bastard sword, diamond section, about 36 inches blade. Then we're talking bits of limbs flying everywhere. Other people limbs.
Dr lounatic, that weapon pic for the quiz doesnt work.

Neither did the Tbns link below, it looks like you have to log in.

[certified psycho]

Here is some, all though I have no idea what they are......
http://www.polaris.net/services/image-archive/weapons/polarm11.jpg

[guthrie]

Look european to me, maybe late medieval, but they could be more eastern, the shapes do seem a little odd. In the uk nowadays we'd call them partisans, spears with extra sharp lugs at the base. The one at the far right has something below the blade, apparently halberds had what were bundles of wool, in order to avoid the blood getting onto the handle and making it slippery. You can obviously stab, and with the lugs, trap an opponents weapon, by pinning it to the ground, leaving your mate to finish the now defenceless enemy off.

[certified psycho]

Now tell me Mr. Weapons expert tell me what the hell is this.
http://dana.ucc.nau.edu/~msb46/dao.gif

[Dreamwalker]

That looks like the weapons used in Kung Fu, ever seen them Shaolin monks waving them around? Really scary.

[Undecided]

Some of my favs.

http://www.wargamer.com/greatbattles/phalanx.jpg
http://digilander.libero.it/arcierieugubini/images/balista.jpg
http://www.alternative-armies.com/acatalog/NS58.JPG (VERY early MRLS).

[cosmictraveler]

this was used alot....

http://www.sciforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2784&stc=1

[certified psycho]

That looks like the weapons used in Kung Fu, ever seen them Shaolin monks waving them around? Really scary.
If you are talking about a movie/show I didn't see it.

[Dreamwalker]

Well certified psycho, there are many movies, shows, books and documentations in which you can see those weapons, I am sure you will stumble across one sometime.

[Fenris Wolf]

Now tell me Mr. Weapons expert tell me what the hell is this.
http://dana.ucc.nau.edu/~msb46/dao.gif

Bit difficult to tell without anything to determine size, but I'd say they're various forms of Japanese Naginata. Basically, a polearm used by noble Japanese women for self defense and as a form of martial art, developed from an earlier battlefield weapon.

[Dreamwalker]

Hey Dr Lou Natic, that thing on the picture of your post is a medieval war hammer of european origin, I would say.

[A Canadian]

not to sound like a mass murder, but old wepons where cool, so innovative in their time

hand to hand combat was more sofisticated than guns...

if you had a beef withsomeone youd fight them with how well you could use our wepon


2 poeple of equal wieght and age and stength, one carrys light wight armor able to withstand certain blows from a sword, is a amuture swords men, and carrys a shield which he is poorly trained at and has a Light sword, easyer to use, the other has a heavyer/longer sword, is a professional swordman, and only wears leather armor to stop only certain nicks and straches on the skin but wont protect from a fatal blow, but it is easyer to move in


who would win, depending on your skills and your choice of gear, it could be anyones game, but only the true warrior would survive, you would prove yourself

it sure beats holding up a liquor store with a sawed off shot gun and get away car

[A Canadian]

we should bring back hand to hand combat (excluding wreslting, unless you thing you could beat someone that way when they where holding a wepon)

the earths population is booming as it is, why let let poeple kill each other for fun if they know may just die
if no one is killed within the 90 second time slot, the fight will end and both men will fight, if using a wepon you must avoid blows to the head or vital organs if possible. thoes are just a few rules i tought of :)


i know id watch such a show... or am i sounding demented

[certified psycho]

Bit difficult to tell without anything to determine size, but I'd say they're various forms of Japanese Naginata. Basically, a polearm used by noble Japanese women for self defense and as a form of martial art, developed from an earlier battlefield weapon.
It it also be used as a torture device. Non-stop poking of the victim

[Fenris Wolf]

Well, yes.... but nearly anything can be used as a torture device. I have on my computer desk a couple of empty beer bottles, a cigarette lighter, a candelabra, a coffee mug (ceramic), an electronic alarm clock, a joystick, a pair of nail clippers and a leatherman knife among other bits and peices. I imagine I could keep someone screaming for days with that lot and a certain amount of ... imagination. Would you like to volunteer?

[certified psycho]

No I wouldn't want to be a volunter to sick games. And from what it sounds like you have a desk that is waiting to hurt somebody or kill.........

[Fenris Wolf]

Yes, I have to keep it in chains. It's very vocal about the whole thing, and can be annoying at times, particularly when I am trying to write something. Concentrating on images of 17th century English manor homes is rather difficult when your desk is screaming for blood.

And you have absolutely no idea what it's like when the mormons show up at my door... I have to gag it by tying the drawers shut.

[guthrie]

Ahh, certified phsycho, im not an expert, but know a few. On second thoughts, the spear thingies look more Indian. They had some interesting and different weapons as well. I am sure the net has all you could want to know about them.


And Fenris wolf, the Naginata was originally an infantry weapon, but ended up being used in a somewhat stylised fashion by said ladies. I'd like to know how it came that they kept up practise with it, rather than men. As far as I know, the weapon women were more intended to be able to use was a wee knife, tanto or similar.
There were one or two cannon in medieval europe that consisted of many barrels all stuck together in one unit, of course the problem was that it took a long time to reload. More modern case shot and stuff is far better for close in work.
That pic above of a big crossbow thing, there were even funkier weapons called springalds, that worked by a pair of twisted ropes, like in an onager, but theres two of them, set up parralell and vertical, such that they were then used to fire arrows, heavy arrows, a long way. they were used to pick of besiegers from teh walls of a castle.

[Fenris Wolf]

Yes, "developed from an earlier battlefield weapon" as I said.
I've done some research, the martial art practised by the Japanese noblewomen was Kata - stylised "forms" in which they developed strength and concentration. Apparently some of the better practicioners were able to compete with a Samurai swordsman on equal terms (although this is true of many polearms). I've no idea how or why the Naginata came to be a household defence weapon in the Edo period, haven't been able to find anything on that.

Modern Japanese still practise the "atarashi naginata", basically a combat martial art using this weapon, and the Kata survives to this day.

[Blazin_billy]

Back on topic, I was reading two book:

"The most evil people in history"
and
"The age of Gladiators"

And there are some pretty gruesome methods of torture:
-Smear honey on a person and drop bee nests around them.
-In anceint Rome, a group of noxii (people condemmed to death) were thrown into the arena and only one had a knife and was to kill them all.
-Another Roman way is to bring in two noxii, one with a knife. The man with the knife would kill the other and a guard would take it and give it to the next man in line to kill the ex-killer and this continued till everyone died.
-The "Bitch of Bulwanda" climbed on a tower adn flashed the oncoming jew prisoners. Anyone who looked up would be shot be a gaurd.
-Vlad the impaler boiled peoples heads alive.
-He also nailed Turikish emissaries hats to their head after they refused to take them off.
-Ivan the terrible through cats and dogs of high buildings just to watch them die a pianful death.

[Dr Lou Natic]

In ancient greek mythology Dirce was tied to a raging bull by her hair and set to be dragged untill dead.
Now thats a cool way to kill someone.
Thats just mythology but the ancient greeks would re-enact punishments from mythology to criminals for entertainment so you just know heaps of people were dragged to death by bulls.

[Arkon]

Heres a picture of Counter-weight Trebuchet.
http://www.ageofwars.com/images/trebuchet.gif
This ones fairly small compared to the giants of the midevial days.
http://alljames.com/users/sarah/images/trebuchet%202.jpg
Heres another one.

[Addicted Archer]

Now tell me Mr. Weapons expert tell me what the hell is this.
http://dana.ucc.nau.edu/~msb46/dao.gif
some of those are halberds. they are like kind of like spears, but more of an extended axe. i think they were used in asian cultures for first attack weapons.

[Roman]

Scissors katar (http://www.ruble-enterprises.com/katar.htm)

These Indian punch daggers were pretty cool. You could catch an an enemy's blade with your katar (note the scissors action), then punch him in the face with another dagger. Royalty also used them for performing killing blows on tigers.

They got pretty fancy, some had multiple blades, or were as long as swords.

Some assorted katars (http://hindunet.org/saraswati/katar1.jpg). Number 15 has a blade that's more than 3 feet long.

Bagh-nakh, or tiger claws (http://hindunet.org/saraswati/baghnakh.jpg).

I'd rather fight with a short sword with a sharp point, a shield, and a javelin. With a couple buddy's it wouldn't be too hard to take out an equal number of barbarians armed with bastard swords.

[Addicted Archer]

http://members.tripod.com/OniBushi/id63.htm
this link shows a traditional japanese long bow, one of my favorite types of bows. if you like archery, i suggest you check it out.

[guthrie]

I'd rather fight with a short sword with a sharp point, a shield, and a javelin. With a couple buddy's it wouldn't be too hard to take out an equal number of barbarians armed with bastard swords.
What, with them all in your hand at once? Put it this way, against someone with a bastard sword who was of equal ability to you, you would probably win with sword and shield. If they were dressed authentically for using a hand and a half, youd probably use, since use of plate armour tends to make it hard to kill people.

[Roman]

What, with them all in your hand at once?
Nah nah, traditional Greek style. I throw the counterweighted javelin into your guts, then draw the sword and finish you off.

plate armour tends to make it hard to kill people.
Hard to kill someone weraing plate armor, or hard to be killed while wearing plate armor? If I had to face down plate armor, I'd want a phalanx of spears at my back, and probably a crossbow.

[guthrie]

WEll, lets see, the javelin could be fielded by the shield. Then, once thats out the way, your left with sword and shild against sword and shield. Or your sword and shiled versus my shield and spear, which gives me a reach advantage.

Indeed, you would want a bunch of spears behind you facing lots of people in plate. Or as you say, a good crossbow, though they are expensive.

[idiot]

http://www.myarmoury.com/compare.html

http://www.swordsdirect.com/hibben_scorpion.html

[invert_nexus]

WEll, lets see, the javelin could be fielded by the shield. Then, once thats out the way, your left with sword and shild against sword and shield. Or your sword and shiled versus my shield and spear, which gives me a reach advantage.

Well, I'd just break out my vorpal sword of sharpness +4 and roll a perfect 20 decapitating blow and voila no more Guthrie.
Unless you made your saving throw, that is. And the DM were feeling lenient.

Ha!
Sorry, couldn't resist.
This whole "Well, I'd do this and you'd do that" thing just totally reminds me of so many D&D conversations I've been privy to in my time.

There is no perfect weapon or defense.
Plate armor is bulky and might make you drop from heat prostration.
The mace and other weapons were specifically designed to crack open armor like an egg shell.
A cross-bow is one of the weapons meant to penetrate armor, but it's also slow and so you'd better hope you hit with the first hit.

[guthrie]

Invert, you have seen the thread on why did muskets supersede bows? We went through much of the multifacetedness of warfare in it.

Suffice to say my naked singularity trumps your sword any day.

As for that heap of junk called the scorpion, how are you going to weild it and avoid cutting yourself?

Anyway, as for plate making you drop form heat exhaustion, sometimes that did happen. Then there was the great siege of Malta in 1555 I think, where one or two did die of heat exhaustion, and the rest just killed jannissaries like they were children.

Maces were designed to crack armour, but it wasnt always that easy to crack, but, if you hit the breastplate in the right place, you could restrict someones breathing enough taht they couldnt fight. et voila, one live and embarrased captive. There is a reason swords became less common on the battlefield in the 15th century, its because polearms were deadlier.

Its also another reason you had mixed troops, of archers, cavalry, cheap pole armed levies and well armoured tinnies and various troops in between. The trick is in getting them in the right place at the right time.

[Nysse]

Does anyone have any more information, or websites, on Greek and Roman torture methods?

[one_raven]

Here's a fierce weapon...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v203/one_raven/Maxi00.jpg
(according to the Department of Homeland Security and the FAA, anyway.)

[Dr Lou Natic]

I was working on a year 11 history book the other day and saw some cool torture devices from the middle ages. There was this thing like a vice which crushed the victims head from top to bottom, but it was very gradually tightened, first their teeth would start to crack under the pressure, then shatter, then the lower jaw would crush and cave in etc etc untill the head was squished maybe a day later.
I also never realised exactly what the iron maiden was, you probably know it's a tomb with inward facing spikes, but they were strategically placed to impale the victim non-fatally. There was even one for each eyeball, but they'd only tickle the back of the ball, and not reach the brain.
So the victim was just kind of annoyingly stuck in the dark, not able to move anything an inch, probably eventually dieing of thirst and discomfort.
This is what the human mind was being used for before the renaissance, coming up with the most brilliantly horrible ways to torture heretics and old eccentric people. Stupid renaissance.

[Mickmeister]

I am impressed by the interrogation chair.

http://homepages.udayton.edu/~santamjc/winter99-5/chair.jpg

[redarmy11]

That looks quite... comfy.

My favourite torture method is to suspend people over a fire by tying their hands behind their back, then suspending them from the ceiling. It's not usually too long before their shoulder joints crack. Sometimes I throw chili powder onto the flames to enhance the burning sensation and, occasionally, I like to beat them as they hang there with an electric baton that I imported specially from China for the purpose. Thankyou.

[Carcano]

The Macedonian Pike.

The Roman Pilum.

The English Longbow.

The Mongol Reflex Bow.

Four of the most powerful ancient weapons that altered the course of history.