Life after Life

[lythea]

I know we can't begin to really know unless we've died ourselves and no one can come back to tell us. (I'm not including those who have had near-death experiences because some believe that is merely a function of the brain at death. Although I do not.) But I am struggling with this notion since the death of my mother in Feb. I believe that you go on to the next level, not that you just cease to exist. There are members of my family that believe however, that that's it, you're just gone. I can't accept that. To those who don't believe or can't find evidence of life merely changing form, it is the idea that the "energy" has to go somewhere. Does that make sense? All that was the essence of my mother, all her thoughts, feelings, emotions, her love for her daughters, how can all of that just cease to be within a few seconds? Does this notion present a curiousity to those of you who DON'T believe you go anywhere after death?

lythea

[shaman1301]

The physical body is just the temporary vehicle of our consciousness. Are we the light or the lightbulb? Our "energy" returns to the source from which it came. There can't be life with out death. We ,again, become ONE with the Universe.

[kmguru]

Though we can not talk to the people that have passed away, they are always in our heart. The memory of the person is sometimes just as real as the person of yesterday.

It is also possible that the sum total of a person's experience is not wasted. Nature is very frugal. For the creation to evolve and grow, every bit of information and energy is recycled. It is logical to consider the posibility that if we are sentient at a small scale, there could be one or more universal setience far larger than us and aware of us that is independent of time and space.

Consider the posibility that souls travel to that plane of existence.

[Bebelina]

We never actually die, we just move on to another level of existence. Nothing is ever lost. Every moment, every thought, every feeling is still there. Only that we experience it in a larger context when we are"dead". We get the ability to look upon our physical lives with immense compassion and understanding. And there really is no reason that we can´t do that, before "death" too... :cool:

[felix]

What if our 'souls' are just recycled into another human life/body/whatever, to help add to the cumulative knowledge of the entire species, so when we've finally learned enough, we ALL move the next 'level' of existence/conscience/evolution?

I have to agree that we don't just "wink" out. That just doesn't "feel" correct.

[kmguru]

That is the Eastern Philosophy that souls are reborn to learn until a time when the planet goes to a longterm iceage to start the process again, while the evolved souls move to a different plane of existence.

If we can design molecular computers today, it is reasonable to assume that our soul can exist in subatomic level or at a multidimensional level and hence can not be perceived by our normal senses.

[glaucon]

Undoubtedly, energy can never be destroyed, only change it's form, but I don't see how this is relevant to personal death. Even if one goes so far as to assume that the soul (or any other similar term) is just energy, what is to say that this particular manifestation of energy in any way retains it's previous state? Energy of all manifestations always 'tries' to move towards a less ordered, diffuse state; given this tendency, it seems highly unlikely that our 'soul' energy would retain any semblance of it's former 'self'. We're not really talking about death here, what we're talking about is personal death. Individuation is a highly organized, dense pattern of energy; physical death releases this energy and the pattern dissipates.... to be one with the universe.

[kmguru]

Individuation is a highly organized, dense pattern of energy; physical death releases this energy and the pattern dissipates.... to be one with the universe.

Using your own argument, it can be said that organized energy is born from diffused energy - is it not? Then the cycle continues from simple oraganization to more complex? We could be in the middle!

No oraganization -> simple -> medium -> complex OR

Universe ->simple ->Universe ->medium ->Universe -> .....

[Hypnogog]

Even if you have no belief in the soul the ultimate outcome of existence is to return to the universe. We bury our dead or scatter the ashes of a loved on and attatch a loci to their being. But when you look at the big,big , big picture, once our sun goes nova we all end up scattered into the universal stuff once again. Return from whence we came. Even our physical being becomes as one with the big U, so eventually we're stardust. Which is why I'm gonna be creamated (ease the transistion).

[kmguru]

Whether you are cremated or buried does not matter. The total mass of Earth stays pretty much the same. In case of burial, after few thousand years, the then archeologist may find how we lived and died....

You are right, the BIG picture is...it does not matter...it is "Maya"...


Welcome to the sciforum where it does not matter what you do...life will continue or not...you will have fun or not....just kidding in case you are upset or not....

[[f]]

Originally posted by Hypnogog
Which is why I'm gonna be creamated (ease the transistion).

I'd have thought you would be made into a beer, so people could drink you LOL

Basically.....you die, you rot....you grow grass...
all that other shit is just that....crap added on to make u feel better about dying.

All that was the essence of my mother, all her thoughts, feelings, emotions, her love for her daughters, how can all of that just cease to be within a few seconds?

As sad as it is......that is what happens....its all gone.

All feelings, emotions are electronic signals passed around in the brain....if the body stops living, and supplying the brain with energy......those signals degrade and eventually cease to "be".

don't try to give value to your mothers life by trying to imagine where she is or why she is there......remember her for what she was.

[wet1]

Welcome to Sciforums, Hypnogog. I notice that you have been here frequently but have not posted much. Getting the lay of the land so to say.

To be cremated or not. You see to be buried is for your descendants, not for you. It is so that they may come and say this is my ancestor, this is where I come from. This is direct physical proof. It is a reassurement you pass on by simply being there. You are accounted for as part of their linkage. You needed the same too at one point somewhere in your life. Wheither you realize it or not. To some it is a small thing to others quite the opposite.

[Hypnogog]

Regarding the disposition of my flesh I truly don't think that you can say getting buried is a reminder to anyone. The headstone is a placeholder ,yes, but it's not like anyone is going to dig me up for Halloween parties or something.
I don't even know if I can say for sure whether anyone is buried in my Uncle's plot, or if it's my uncle. But I'm not going to look. The headstone marks a place for the deceased and that is what any and all communication is with regardless of the actual placement of the body.
Besides, enviromentally speaking, cremation is much more sound. Many perfectly good parks are ruined by golfer's and the deceased.

By the way [f] I want to be added to soup so people can just eat me!

[[f]]

1.Besides, enviromentally speaking, cremation is much more sound. Many perfectly good parks are ruined by golfer's and the deceased.
2.By the way [f] I want to be added to soup so people can just eat me!

Frazer bashing aside....wouldn't putting 1. and 2. together maybe be the best environmentally friendly way to go about it?..well cooked of course..seriously..it reminds me of Dune, where they remove all of the liquid from the dead... so as not to waste any precious water.

I know that sounds sick in the context of how the thread was started....but many a good thread have moved and evolved into something else.

I'll just take yer GeForce3 when u move on man 87)

[Chagur]

Re. the soup bit:

Might want to read Heinlein's 'Stranger in a Strange Land'

I've read it at least a dozen times over the years (written in '61 or '62 I believe).

[felix]

Good suggestion, chagur. 'Stranger in a Strange Land' is an excellent book. I like to recommend to EVERYONE.

[Godless]

Originally posted by [f]


I'd have thought you would be made into a beer, so people could drink you LOL

Basically.....you die, you rot....you grow grass...
all that other shit is just that....crap added on to make u feel better about dying.



As sad as it is......that is what happens....its all gone.

All feelings, emotions are electronic signals passed around in the brain....if the body stops living, and supplying the brain with energy......those signals degrade and eventually cease to "be".

don't try to give value to your mothers life by trying to imagine where she is or why she is there......remember her for what she was.

Well I happen to agree with you!, humans are very fond of thinking we seice to exist, go on to another dimension, or exist in a different parallel, crap!, we die, period.

This is why it's called death. It's finito, though the only problem is that we are a race of intellegent beings, we have the know how to defeat death, or at least prolong life, we have been doing that for many years, the average human now lives to be 75 yrs old, as compared to 45-50 yrs old 150yrs ago. Technology in medical science will prolong life as it has been, in twenty years the average life span could reach 100 yrs. The problem i was getting at, is that we accept death!. that's the problem.

[Cris]

Godless,

Yes humans tend to accept death as inevitability, and that is reasonable because up until now everyone before us has died. No one as yet has managed to cheat death. The assumption is that death is a natural event. But this need not be so.

Those working in anti-aging research describe death through aging as a disease to be cured like any other. Some organisms on the planet do not age. Bacteria for example do not have an aging process. Theoretically any bacteria that formed several million years ago could still be alive. The only reason bacteria die is if they are directly killed or run out of food. There is also a species of cactus that also has no aging process.

The results of telemere research, and others, show great promise in being able to prevent human cell aging. In other words a cure for the disease of aging is on the horizon.

But your real point is that humans have adopted that hopeless fatalistic attitude that there is nothing that can be done about death, and that has prevented many from striving to solve the problem of aging sooner.

But worse is that religionists see death as a gateway to heaven and as a desire to be acquired as opposed to something that should be resisted with all our energies.

This is why humanity is not likely to make any rapid progress towards anti-aging until religiosity is significantly debunked, but as it stands religions are the most regressive force that mankind has had to face. Their death wish is a real threat to my and your future survival. It is in our best interests to help bring down and destroy mainstream religions.

Cris

[felix]

Originally posted by Godless


Well I happen to agree with you!, humans are very fond of thinking we seice to exist, go on to another dimension, or exist in a different parallel, crap!, we die, period.

This is why it's called death. It's finito,

That's no more proveable than any other theory. You sound like the religious people that think there couldn't possibly be any other way than what they believe.

[Banshee]

Why is it so hard to get we go to another dimension??
Never heard of nearly death experiences. And people who have out of their body experiences.
They enter the same dimension, the same entities they see and they feel the same strong, warm love, that you only can feel there.....at home!!

Where we all go and where we all come from. And in the end if you've lived all your lives you become one of the entities living there. Because then, you've nothing more to learn.
It's a beautiful place, not to discribe in words.
Don't call it heaven, for it is not.....
It is the Cosmos, where only the law of the Cosmos is important and that one law is LOVE....!!

[babelfish]

posted by [f]

Basically.....you die, you rot....you grow grass...
all that other shit is just that....crap added on to make u feel better about dying.

As sad as it is......that is what happens....its all gone.

All feelings, emotions are electronic signals passed around in the brain....if the body stops living, and supplying the brain with energy......those signals degrade and eventually cease to "be".

posted by godless

humans are very fond of thinking we seice to exist, go on to another dimension, or exist in a different parallel, crap!, we die, period.

Folks, you couldn't be more wrong. (And this is not coming from a religious fanatic - lord knows, I havn't been to church in years).

For arguments sake, I will assume that you agree with the statement "I think therefore I am (I exist)"

For practical purposes outside the world of academic debate, three clinical tests commonly determine brain death. First, a standard electroencephalogram, or EEG, measures brain-wave activity. A "flat" EEG denotes nonfunction of the cerebral cortex - the outer shell of the cerebrum. Second, auditory evoked potentials, similar to those [clicks] elicited by the ear speakers in brain surgery, measure brain-stem viability. Absence of these potentials indicates nonfunction of the brain stem. And third, documentation of no blood flow to the brain is a marker for a generalized absence of brain function.

The link below is a summary of an article published in a peer-review medical journal of an NDE in which the subject satified the three clinical tests for brain death and yet, continued to think, observe, remember (she continued to exist)

http://www.near-death.com/reynolds.html

If you firmly believe that death is final then objective evidence probably won't budge you. But, I'll bet you a pint of Guinness, that as you exhale your final breath, your going to have one hell of an epiphany.

Believe def.: to be convinced of something with out proof. to have faith.

P.S. rent the video "Contact" for a better analogy

[Godless]

Yes your brain may function for awhile after you've died, however it will not last, once the light goes out, once the sensation stops. YOUR DEAD!!.

This is why it's called death! it's finito. Your consciousness, and subconsciousness will seise to function, you will not feel, will not hear, will not see anything!. There's no other dimension, you plainly seist to exist!. Non-existence!.

It is the fear of death in which the church thrives, false promises of a heaven, crap!!. To live in other dimension of bliss? common!
The Egiptians thought the same, that's why they were mommified, with all there treasure and servents. So they can have all their belonging in the afterlife. See the idea of life-after death is not of judeo christian origin it's actually borrowed by other religious cults of their time.

[Banshee]

You do not read very well what I write to you. We materialize our own projections.The reality of , for instance a tree, is the way you look at it. You look at the same tree I do, but in a different way, your reality.
Everything is Energy, even in a stone is Energy, I do not know how to explain.
So people 'make' themselves, from astral/cosmic energy, you get what I mean, please?
If you think very hard you have to come to the conclusion, this has to lead anywhere, this being on Earth.
So dying is part of the process, you just lay off your human body because it is over with that body. It has to go, back to 'star'dust, where it came from.
In your Earth bound body, there is a 'soul', for I prefer Deeper Self. That is always with you, in every lifetime.
Scientists have proven that the body weighs 68 grams lighter, if some one is out of his/her body.
When the person's Deeper Self, what was gone out of the body to travel, came back in the Earth bound body, the person had his 68 grams back, strange, isn't it. It can make you think.
An out of your body experience is not so unusual as most of you think. More and more people have the ability to do so, they don't tell so much, because people always have their judgements.
It is hard to live like this if most of the people are so cruel and hostile towards one another.
It should be better if people listened a little harder and fighted a little less, a whole lot less.

Near death experiences come close to out of body experiences.
They seem to enter the same dimension, in another way.
Person's with near death experiences see the people they expect , like jesus, or family members, just in what the person believes, for it's the reality of this person that counts here.
I don't know what to write now any more, if I read it back it is a mess.
I let it be here, maybe you do understand what I mean, if not, say so. Don't be rude, please. Thank you.
:)
But I know your life doesn't stop when your body does....

[maureece howell]

While I find this subject rather fascinating and would be delighted to know the true answer, I do not believe it is available to us right now. We can only speculate, and observe the viewpoints of several spiritual systems, and draw our conclusions from there.
It has recently occurred to me that it might not be meant for us to know life after life or death. After all, is not the purpose of life to live?



While you are unable to serve men, how can you serve spirits of the dead?... While you do not know life, how can you know about death?
Confucius

[synaesthesia]

"Scientists have proven that the body weighs 68 grams lighter, if some one is out of his/her body. "

I've heard this claim time and again but no one has ever at any point produced any peer reviewed studies to this effect.

Your life, you, by definition, stops when your body dies.

[Banshee]

You live too far away.
Come over here, then you can weigh me and make it a scientifical proof.
That is what you scientists want isn't it?

Pity, no one works along with them. Poor scientists. All they have is nothing, only words.....

Let it be that way, no guinea pigs!!! or what do you call it in english.

[kmguru]

Here is some interesting speculations for those who have faith.

The new theory on brain suggests that brain works on a quantum computing lvel when the answers are needed that is too complex for normal neural computing. Now recent IBM research indicates that signals can be generated at a quantum lvel without wires at the atomic level (reported elsewhere in the forum). Another DOD research is working on a quantum communication and encryption. Adding all these developments (admittedly a long stretch...) it may be possible for the conscious to pass from physical body to a quantum state into a subatomic layer of existence.

I think we will know a little more in about 5 to 10 years when we have a better understanding of the quantum world.

Until then, keep the faith....

[KalvinB]

There are cells in the human body that don't die. It's called Cancer.

Ben

[Hermann]

It seems to be an individual basic decision, whether afterlife is feasible for you or not. If it is not feasible you, like for Godless, you will stick to a purely materialistic view, which is still respectable and there is no way to argue against it.
On the other hand, when afterlife is feasible for you, like for Banshee and for me, you are not restricted to irrational beliefs, but you can develop your view in a rational manner quite a lot.

During the last 100 years our capability for imagination has gained quite a lot. E.g. in Easting religions the cycle of reincarnations are regarded as pain aiming to overcome it, which corresponds to the limited horizon thousands of years ago. Today with the knowledge of the universe and of the evolution, we can imagine an endless development of the individual souls, where reincarnation on earth could be a great chance for.

As explained in more detail on my website I can see the total world scenarios as a combination of three processes - recycling of matter - biological evolution and an endless individual development.

I would be interested to learn about other imaginable scenarios, which are finally more satisfying.

[Banshee]

This is why the sci forums are so ok.
Everybody can say what they think is good, from their point of view.
That is the way it has to be. So many people, so many different meanings.

It is easy to say for me that I am certain of reincarnation. But who am I to say so to other people. Why should they believe me?
This is such a difficult item, I do know what I myself have experienced. There for I can't speak for any one else.
I can only say, that I hope people know they don't have to be afraid of dying. It is a normal process, just like in Nature, a circle of life after life.........

You learn, in every life, you learn and you grow to more wisdom and more knowing of why it is we are here.......
:)

[Reign_of_Error]

"Even if you have no belief in the soul the ultimate outcome of existence is to return to the universe. We bury our dead or scatter the ashes of a loved on and attatch a loci to their being. But when you look at the big,big , big picture, once our sun goes nova all end up scattered into the universal stuff once again. Return from whence we came. Even our physical being becomes as one with the big U, so eventually we're stardust. Which is why I'm gonna be creamated (ease the transistion)".


sorry man... our sun is too small to go nova... it will however consume the earth in its red giant phase...

[Stryder]

From your death there can be life, true.

Just you have to work out what incarnation you would like to be:

would you like to help increase the worm's geneload through being buried, become a preportion to the make up of lichen and the humble fly.

Mold is another important one, you should know now why it tends to appear on anything damp.

If your cremated then you could be sprinkled around a tree and help increase the nutrients within the soil.

A sea burial will mean the fish and plancton will have something to nibble.

If you leave your body to science, your appendix could have a new life in a pickling jar in some college, or your body could be left outside in a forest as apart of a forensics test to see how your body disentigrates over time.

Sorry about that I could resist carry that out until the end... or should I say.. the beginning? :D

[Banshee]

What do you mean by this then?
I don't understand.
Can you please explain??

[Stryder]

The post I wrote previously Banshee was just explaining my understanding of "Life after death" or life after life if people don't like to say they are dead.

Of course people can continue believing what ever they want, I was just being a bit cold as it was getting late at night and my body was telling me to sleep.

Anyway it's a well known fact that Energy never truly is excerted it just changes form.

[Banshee]

There you are right.
Energy changes its form all the time. You are energy yourself.
In fact you are materialized energy.
All living thigs, all you can see, hear or taste or whatever. It is all just energy materialized into what you see.
You understand what I mean?? My english is not that good with subjects like these, I am sorry.

So it is not a very good moment to write about this now, with all that dead people in New York.
In fact everybody goes back to the place we all belong, where we 'live' where our home-front is, our real home-front. We always go back there after laying of your Earth-bound body. When you are done with that body here on Earth, you lay it off and your Deeper Self is going back to there where we all come from, the Cosmos.
I don't have more time now.
You want to know more??
Let me know, I will try to explain, but I make mistakes like any other.....
And I am not, really not, all knowing. Like a member of the forums seems to think;)

[Pete]

Random thoughts on life after life and memory:

Is your memory physically encoded in your brain?
Is it embodied in a hypothetical soul?
Perhaps both?

It seems to me that if your memory is part of your physical body, then it ceases to exist when your body breaks down.

If it is embodied only in a soul, then how does the physical manipulation of a brain affect memory?

If both, then why? And what mechanism synchronises the two?

[kmguru]

My theory is that the brain maintains a separate energy matrix (soul) with a quantum connection so that there is no physical connection. When your body dies, the soul still continues onward with all the memory of the quantum connected host.

It is like a store computer whose information is backed up constantly to the corporate computer. You can turn off the store computer the next morning, the previous days detail transactions still can be found at the main computer memory.

In a lot of religions, they talk about the soul. In Hinduism, they talk about soul (atma) that can not be destroyed and "akashic records" that are records of detail transactions of all happenings in time and space.

Just a thought....

[Banshee]

Yes Kmguru is right.
Your Deeper Self (or soul if you prefer) always remembers all the lives you have lived. It is with you always. When you die, you lay off your Earth-bound body and your Deeper Self goes to the home front, Bardo as the Tibetans call the home front, we all go back to when we pass over from this world to our home Dimension. Then you have to deal with your Carma, but I do not know how this works exactly.
There is no such place like hell, it simply doesn't exist. All that exists is the Cosmos and we are all just energy from the Cosmos who learn how to live our lives on Earth, learn that it is not the material things what matter, but other, much more important 'things'...
And that is what is important for your Deeper Self, the knowing how to live your life well.