The West was warned. Now it is paying the price

[Proud_Muslim]

Robert Fisk: The West was warned. Now it is paying the price of the 'war on
terror':

Civilians are now to die in Europe as brutally as they have died in Bali and
Tunisia and Istanbul and - let us, for a moment, see the world through another prism - as they have been torn to pieces by our bombs in afghanistan and Iraq.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5852.htm

[MacM]

Proud Muslim,

Lets us just hope other muslims have better sense than to commit suicide for a ludricrus and losing cause.

You hurt your people and the muslim religion by vial and ignorant assaults. Such events as Spain, even the horrific 9/11 event are mere scratches on the surface and only bring about the devastation of many more arabic lives.

The West will win. It has nothing to do with any God. There is no such thing and this nonsense of "My God is tougher than your God" is absolute insanity.

Continue to march down this path and kiss your mother, father, brothers, sisters and any children or future generations of grandchildren, etc., good bye for they will all be dead, gone and buried as civilized nations continue to thrive.

You can respond in any fashion you choose, I will not be debating this issue. It is undebatable and non negotioable. BYE.

[cosmictraveler]

It is very sad that those who want to control the world their ways cannot allow others that believe in any other type of political system to exist. That shows the world there's disrespect for all others that don't want to be ruled by their own laws not of the laws of the Islamic fanatics that would put the world back to the stone age. Respect is given to the Islamic nations that don't create problems for other types of thinking in the world today. Why is it that so many must pay the ultimate price because they happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time when terrorists blow up something. I'm certain most of those killed weren't all supporters of the Spanish government and some may have been Islamic too.

Terrorists kill so many that don't have anything at all to do with what the governments are doing that the terorists causes will be diminished because more people will hate them for killing their families. Most people that adhere to Islamic tradition aren't terrorists but the few that create the problems just want to start problems and gain control through extortion means. Either you do as we say or we will blow you up, that's basically what terrorists are saying. It is either their way or death to everyone not in lock step with them. That type of attitude will bring more problems to the terrorists because people will turn against them in their own countries and then that will be their demise.

[otheadp]

on sept 10 2001 there was no 'war on terror' yet the next day 3000 people were killed

the thinking of "if we'll let them get away with it maybe they'll stop" does not work
or "if we don't help america maybe they won't attack us" doesn't work either
we're not dealing with rational people here
or some formal organization with clear long-term objectives (well except one - islam will take over the world)
only short-term ones (kill kill kill the infidel)

what we're dealing with is religious fanatics, pure and simple
there is no way to appease them. NO WAY

islamist terrorism is a plague like communism and fascism was
and it too will fall

give it a decade or 2

[guthrie]

So your saying that all citizens are responsible for the stupidities of their gvts?

In that case, presumably you'll understand why Afghanistan needed to be invaded, and perhaps you would support the bombing of SAudi Arabia, or China, or indeed of every other opressed and opressing country in the world.

[spidergoat]

The terrorists were warned, too. Now they have lost control of Afghanistan and Iraq, and many are under arrest. They will lose this war, all the power of the free world is against them. We will not appease them with their pathetic claims of injustice. They have been practicing injustice as a lifestyle for so long they are blind to it. Not everyone supported Iraq, but about Bin Laden, everyone can agree- that nail which sticks up will get hammered down.

[MacM]

guthrie,

Not sure who you were addressing here but I'll respond for my part. The people only become responsible when they join in and celebrate the actions of such oppressive governments and/or terrorists.

Just as Afganistan was given notice to hand over the terrorists, or else, and they chose "Or Else". We attacked the goverment, not the people. Same in Iraq. We liberated the people from S.A. and we are killing those that continue to want to be oppressors. We are aiding those that want freedom and do not attack us.

[hypewaders]

"We attacked the goverment, not the people. Same in Iraq."

That statement is untrue. To get to the governments, we tore through the flesh of everyday people by the tens of thousands, and the survivors will not forget this.

[spidergoat]

Not that many everyday people died, soldiers, the ones that didn't walk away died. Iraqi civilians were killed, but astoundingly few due to technological advances, but they were not attacked. That implies that the U.S. delibrately targeted civilians, which is not true. Not tens of thousands, perhaps ten thousand total. The Iraqis are too concerned about their everyday life to care much about international politics, and too proud to admit they needed the help of infidels. Those that do care, and those that were oppressed by Saddam, are very happy to have him in jail now.

[otheadp]

the survivors will not forget this

you bet they won't
US has a new best friend in the middle east.
if not now, then in a few years when Iraq gets stabalized.

[RonVolk]

otheadp, I agree with you.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/03/16/sprj.irq.poll/index.html
If we did "tear through the flesh of thousands" they still seem to like us for it.

"And almost half -- 49 percent -- of those questioned believe the invasion of their country by U.S. and British troops was right, compared with 39 percent who said it was wrong."

Maybe after Bush loses reelection here he can run for Iraqi President. LOL

[dsdsds]

Not that many everyday people died ..

Not that many everyday people died on Sept. 11 either. I'm betting that more than 3000 "everyday people" died in Afghanastan & Iraq since and because of 9/11.

[dsdsds]

Continue to march down this path and kiss your mother, father, brothers, sisters and any children or future generations of grandchildren, etc., good bye for they will all be dead, ...

Would you believe an American said this?! Sounds like Islamic fundamentalist terrorist talk to me.

[dsdsds]

Terrorists kill so many that don't have anything at all to do with what the governments are doing that the terorists causes will be diminished because more people will hate them for killing their families. Most people that adhere to Islamic tradition aren't terrorists but the few that create the problems just want to start problems and gain control through extortion means. Either you do as we say or we will blow you up, that's basically what terrorists are saying. It is either their way or death to everyone not in lock step with them. That type of attitude will bring more problems to the terrorists because people will turn against them in their own countries and then that will be their demise.

Cosmic,
What I've done below is replaced the word terrorists with "western government" and governments with "terrorist". (Islamic is also replaced with "western"). I think it reads and applies just as well:

"Western Governments" kill so many that don't have anything at all to do with what the "terrorists" are doing that the "western governments" causes will be diminished because more people will hate them for killing their families. Most people that adhere to "western" tradition aren't "western governments" but the few that create the problems just want to start problems and gain control through extortion means. Either you do as we say or we will blow you up, that's basically what "western governments" are saying. It is either their way or death to everyone not in lock step with them. That type of attitude will bring more problems to the "western governments" because people will turn against them in their own countries and then that will be their demise.

[gendanken]

Cosmictraveller:

It is either their way or death to everyone not in lock step with them. That type of attitude will bring more problems to the terrorists because people will turn against them in their own countries and then that will be their demise.
You fail to realize that humans are quick to lick the crack of their oppressors.

Gee, I wonder how hard it was for the Mongols- no, a more recent example is need considering you may get lost in my refereces- the Taliban, I wonder how hard it was for them to keep all those rebellions down in Afghanistan. Those assholes were plucked out, not kicked out.

Spidergoat:

The Iraqis are too concerned about their everyday life to care much about international politics, and too proud to admit they needed the help of infidels
Nope- the Muslim commoner is far more informed, in international politics and otherwise, than his Western Christian counterpart. And this makes him impassoned in his cause, which means he can only strike in blind emotion.

THAT'S why this so called war on terror will never end if its against people such as this that you are up against. Robert Fisk writes:

"I don't believe this is the Third World War. Nor is it a "war on
terror". Nor is it a "war of civilisations". But our own leaders are
wilfully leading us into a period of appalling suffering because they
will not address the causes of injustice in the Islamic world.
Repeatedly, our leaders were told of the consequences of participation
in America's Iraqi folly. They lied to us. They told us about weapons of
mass destruction that didn't exist, about links between Iraq and 11
September 2001 that didn't exist. Now, trapped in Iraq, we are desperate
to scuttle away, leaving behind us a half-trained force of collaboration
police who will - supposedly - shed their blood for ours."


They don't give a flying rat's ass if you are either for, against, or standing shoulder to shoulder with them. Just so long as you are there and NOT Muslim makes you an infidel. Period.

This is the mentality one is up against. A religious poodle with rabies.

[MacM]

Gendanken,


They don't give a flying rat's ass if you are either for, against, or standing shoulder to shoulder with them. Just so long as you are there and NOT Muslim makes you an infidel. Period.

This is the mentality one is up against. A religious poodle with rabies.

ANS: ANd that is very unfortunate since it means they will all be lost. But civilized mankind cannot simply step aside and allow others to decide they and only they should rule the world and that only they must survive. Those that think like that bring about their own demise.

[Dr Lou Natic]

"the west was warned"
That annoys me. Who are the "east" to threaten the west at all.
We all know the "west" could litterally cleanse the earth of the "east" in 24 hours.
But the west likes to be liked by its citizens, citizens who happen to think political correctness is more important that their lives and country.
I just hope this fact doesn't let these sneaky rat bastards gradually win this war that only they are really fighting.

The west's lenient attitude is totally unnatural, here they have people openly oposed to their existence, feeblishly biting at their feet. And they are, for all intents and purposes, being ignored.
Imagine a shrew biting a lion repeatedly on the legs, if the lion just sits there contemplating the ethical dilemma of attacking a shrew for too long the shrew is eventually going to start to do damage.

And people complain about bush, thats what really makes me laugh, could he be any softer? Do you want him to send flowers? Obviously leaving them alone as they threaten the destruction of his country and its allies isn't "nice" enough for you ned flanders wannabes.

I'd prefer it if he just threw bombs over there untill the threats stopped, not because I'm concerned about my safety with terrorist attacks, but because its unnatural to tolerate threats from a far weaker source. It would similarly irritate me to see a pod of killer whales flee from a few porpoises.
Turn around and fuck them up, nothing personal middle east, but when you harrass a clan that is bigger, stronger, and generally far more formiddable than yourself you are asking for it. Thats the way the planet operates. It doesn't matter who's "right", does a lion care about stealing a cheetah's hard earned meal? No, it takes it because it can.
I find it irksome enough that the human species isn't in conflict for territorial rights of the earth, we are a global species now, I didn't want us to become one, but now we are, lets act like one.
Even if the middle east were minding their own business, america HAS the capability to reap the rewards of taking them over, so technically they should be.
But its worse than that, they are stirring shit, its almost like their instincts are surprised the west hasn't rendered them extinct and they're saying "come on! just freaking do it already".

I'm not "right wing" or any of that shit. I'm an ethology and natural history enthusiast. And this is just a lame era, and a lame display of animal instincts.
The west should be ashamed of itself, and the east should be thanking its lucky stars the west is so dysgenic and screwed up.

[spuriousmonkey]

If you put it like that Dr Lou I almost have to agree, except that my political correct upbringing is kicking in and is clouding my judgement.

[Zarkov]

Simple guys, together or blown ap...part

or slow radiation mutation into a cancer feeding upon a rotting body.

I am sure LIFE could not careless.....

Do you care...... obviously the slimy terrorists or what they represent, ? their children's future..... they care.

Bombs in the backyard.... I think the money rapists need to be put on trial..... I am innocent, are you?

[Eddie]

Proud Muslim,

Let us, for a moment, see the world through at least one other prism - Because the United States and its allies intervened, no more will hundreds of thousands of Muslims per decade disappear, be raped, tortured, brutally murdered and thrown into mass graves by the ruthless regime of Saddam, the dictator of Iraq. Does this not soften your heart at least a little bit?

Yes, the citizen casualties are hard to take at this time and we pray for the souls of those who have died there this past year due to the foreign intervention. However, unlike Saddam, the United States and its allies are not purposefully targeting citizens and their presence in Iraq is temporary. Saddam's dictatorship was in Iraq to stay. Should the world have stood by, doing nothing, allowing this man and his regime to facilitate more mass-murders against Muslims?

[goofyfish]

Had the current administration stated that our intentions were humanitarian in the beginning, rather than having to repeatedly shift causes as previous reasons were shown to be false, there might have been greater support. A UN concensus might have been forged. Instead, "freeing the Iraqi people" has been tossed out after the fact, making it ring hollow.

:m: Peace.

[Eddie]

goofyfish,

True. However, the President of the United States probably would not have had national support at the outset. Presenting it as matter of national defense to the citizens of the United States, albeit possibly deceitfully, was probably the best course of action to take to get the support needed to get the troops over there to get the job done expeditiously.

The outcome is humanitarian in nature and I think that's one good thing to have come out of this. Unfortunately, there is still too much Muslim on Muslim killing going on in Iraq and I think that's a very sad state of affairs.

Freedom costs dearly, though, as the United States learned from its own Revolutionary and Civil Wars.

[Proud_Muslim]

So your saying that all citizens are responsible for the stupidities of their gvts?

In democracies like yours, there is NO difference between the government and the people.


In that case, presumably you'll understand why Afghanistan needed to be invaded, and perhaps you would support the bombing of SAudi Arabia, or China, or indeed of every other opressed and opressing country in the world

And who the hell is YOU to bomb any other country ???

[guthrie]

"In democracies like yours, there is NO difference between the government and the people."

Nope, cos we arent actually democracies. Your in the UK, you should know. The system is set up in a less blatant way than that current across most of the Muslim world, but its still the same old oligarchs that run most things.

"And who the hell is YOU to bomb any other country ???"

Me? I dont bomb other countries. I'm merely pointing out how since the population of muslim countries seems to accept the terrorists within them, they too are responsible for the actions of those terrorists.

[Don Hakman]

Perhaps a little primer on the Crusades up to the current born again christian Billy Graham Bush version would be helpful...

www.rense.com/general50/texas.htm

[Proud_Muslim]

"In democracies like yours, there is NO difference between the government and the people."

Nope, cos we arent actually democracies. Your in the UK, you should know. The system is set up in a less blatant way than that current across most of the Muslim world, but its still the same old oligarchs that run most things.

So you are not democracies, you are hypocrisies !!! :rolleyes:


"And who the hell is YOU to bomb any other country ???"

Me? I dont bomb other countries. I'm merely pointing out how since the population of muslim countries seems to accept the terrorists within them, they too are responsible for the actions of those terrorists.

You said the population of muslim countries seems to accept the terrorists within them, can you please prove your claim? :rolleyes:

[guthrie]

"So you are not democracies, you are hypocrisies !!! "

But of course. However, who listens to the leaders pontificating on the subject deserves to be fooled, looks like you have been.

"You said the population of muslim countries seems to accept the terrorists within them, can you please prove your claim?"

By the simple fact that there are still terrorists in Iraq, Pakistan etc. If the people en masse there actually really disliked terrorism and wanted rid of them, a few wee tips off are all it would take. Or else are they scared of being shot by the terrorists?

[otheadp]

the west was warned, eh?
so all the west has to do is be against the "bush-blair crusades" and all will be ok, right?

wrong! (http://www.dailypundit.com/archives/013129.php)


The most supinely pro-terrorist, anti-war, anti-American, surrender-at-any-cost media outlet in the English speaking world, and what does it get them?

[Eluminate]

Chechen population in 1990 approximately 860k
Chechen population in 2004 approximately 470k
Chechen population killed because of islamic radical ideas
practiced approximately 270k in last 2 years.

My thoughts of chechen nacionality surviving in Russia in the next
10-14 years slim to none. I remember the first massive terrorist act
it was in Moscow 3 buildings were blown up and 600 people died it was
before september 11th.

Proud looking at it from this perspective do you think terrorism was worth it
for the chechens. Bear in mind Yeltsin gave the region autonomy and their
leader Mashadov was elected president after the first chechen war came to
a close. When approximately 1200 chechens attacked daghestan and resumed
kidnappings is when the 2nd war was started and Putin sent the army in.
Now Putin is no Yeltsin and his phrase of dealing with them was "mochit v sortire"
which means kill in bathroom... Ambitions of a few radical islamic religious fanatics killed an entire nacionality in this case congrats...

[Fenris Wolf]

Can almost see the drool hanging from PM's chin, can't you.

[Eluminate]

I just stated the obvious not all countries are as nice as US or the Western Europeans.
You bite Russia on its foot enough times and it will stomp you.

[truth]

I just stated the obvious not all countries are as nice as US or the Western Europeans.
You bite Russia on its foot enough times and it will stomp you.

I wonder what it would have been like in Iraq if the Russians had gone instead of the US, Britain, and the allies. We know what they did in Afghanistan, and Iraq is not the same.

[crazy151drinker]

1st off, the Islamic world should be thankfull they bombed the U.S. We all know what the Soviets did in Afghanistan.

Secondly, Terrorists will never amount to anything. They are a bunch of COWARDS. Yes I said it COWARDS. Anyone who straps bombs to themselves and attacks Civilains is a COWARD. Now your strapping bombs to your women! COWARDS! Funny how you only have teenagers doing it. The older ones know your full of it! Blowing up a train full of Innocent people is COWARDLY. You will NEVER get the RESPECT of any country because of that. Too bad Ghengis Khan died, he was on a roll.

[Eluminate]

i would like to know what the soviets did in afghanistan...
the only thing i know they did is establish a minority gov't at the helm..
15% of aghanistans pop supported a communis state mostly in big cities in northern parts. Just like US supported the south vietnamese gov't even though they were in minority as well. Just giving historical comparisons thats all.

All I can say is Eastern Islamic countries need to be dealt with in way they under stand. Ergo Eastern law of the land. Which Russia is Practicing in chechnya. It basicly ammounts to the following: Terror by islamic radicals = anihilation of any islamic radicals + non radicals who are associated in any way + anihilation of their relatives and offspring.

This is how Jordan dealth with the Palestinian authority when they started to create terrorist acts to overthrow king *the old one who died*. A law was instituted that anyone who was related to the terrorist ergo family relatives & clan associates would be put to death in response for his crimes. This amounts to guilt by association but it works , terror stoped in Jordan after the law was enforced several times.

[Proud_Muslim]

Secondly, Terrorists will never amount to anything. They are a bunch of COWARDS. Yes I said it COWARDS. Anyone who straps bombs to themselves and attacks Civilains is a COWARD.

How about bombing civilians from the safety of the sky ? COWARDS !!

[Dr Lou Natic]

And islamic extremists wouldn't do that if they could?
The difference would be that they would go all out and it would take them about 48 hours to make every country they disagree with a smoking crater.

[crazy151drinker]

How about bombing civilians from the safety of the sky ? COWARDS !!



You mean like Sept 11th???

[crazy151drinker]

Eluminate,

The Soviets tend not to comply with the Geneva Convention. For example, soviet tankers would tie suspected rebels to their tank treads and drive over them. Pretty nasty (and messy).

[crazy151drinker]

How about bombing civilians from the safety of the sky ? COWARDS !!

The US does not target civilians. We do not intentionally bomb buses, schools, malls, mosques, or any other CIVILIAN target. Only COWARDS like terrorist do such things. If we were COWARDS like YOU we would have launched a couple ICBMs and gotten rid of ALL of you. If you decided to attack legitamite Military targets, maybe the world would listen to you, but NOOOOOO you have to attack unarmed civilians! COWARDS! All of you! And you think God will let you into heaven for attacking unarmed civilians?? Hah! Keep dreaming..........

[Lamtarh]

'If we were COWARDS like YOU we would have launched a couple ICBMs and gotten rid of ALL of you.'

interesting mr drinker, now may i sugget just one thing for the public consumption, the reason the us does send InterContinetal Balistic Missiles over towards the middle east is not its compasion for human life, but rather the fact that the us doesn't want to blow up its most plentyfull oil supply. it seems you are cowards, you are fearful of taking actions that you feel are 'just' for fear of lossing natural resources, whereas the 'freedom fighters' or 'terrorists' (choose your own) take their actions regardless of the concequences due to thew power of their convictions. It takes a barve man to face his own death, not a coward. look at the japanese fighters, seen has the most honourable fighters in history... you remember Kamakazi? the good of the many outweighs the good of the few, or the one. PLO members are willing to take their own life in the hope tha it will facilitate the progreesion of the plight of the occupied Palestinian people. Either way, I wish not to advocate one side over the other but do not call a deperate man hat chooses to take his own life a coward, it is a niave thing to say.

[crazy151drinker]

Lamtarh,

Correct me if im wrong but the Kamakaze's attacked MILITARY targets. Kamakaze's did not fly their planes in to Red Cross stations. Notice the difference? One is MILITARY- the other is CIVILIAN.
And im sure we could still pump oil if we nuked the place. Look at Japan, its doing quite alright. Your right, maybe we shouldnt nuke it, we'll just drop some Nerve Agents :rolleyes:
I also do not remember little Japanese kids strapping bombs to themselves....

So once again to clarify:
If you strap bombs to little kids so they can do your dirty work and you attack CIVILIANS you are a COWARD.

[crazy151drinker]

I dont have a problem with the fact that they (ignorantly) feel that they need to blow themselves up (good riddance). I have a problem with their targets. The kill INNOCENT CIVILIANS. The do NOT attack MILITARY targets. They ONLY attack UNARMED people. That makes them COWARDS in the greatest meaning of the word.

[WildBlueYonder]

Proud Muslim,

Let us, for a moment, see the world through at least one other prism - Because the United States and its allies intervened, no more will hundreds of thousands of Muslims per decade disappear, be raped, tortured, brutally murdered and thrown into mass graves by the ruthless regime of Saddam, the dictator of Iraq. Does this not soften your heart at least a little bit?

Yes, the citizen casualties are hard to take at this time and we pray for the souls of those who have died there this past year due to the foreign intervention. However, unlike Saddam, the United States and its allies are not purposefully targeting citizens and their presence in Iraq is temporary. Saddam's dictatorship was in Iraq to stay. Should the world have stood by, doing nothing, allowing this man and his regime to facilitate more mass-murders against Muslims?I guess if you ask a muslim, the answer is, "yes", no infidel gov should do anything to any muslim gov, otherwise its "!jihad against the infidel!" muslim rights are above human rights, why do you think muslims are joining the Saddam holdover rebels?

[WildBlueYonder]

Robert Fisk: The West was warned. Now it is paying the price of the 'war on
terror':

Civilians are now to die in Europe as brutally as they have died in Bali and
Tunisia and Istanbul and - let us, for a moment, see the world through another prism - as they have been torn to pieces by our bombs in afghanistan and Iraq.

P_M, you are right, we were warned
From:
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/980223-fatwa.htm

Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders
World Islamic Front Statement 23 February 1998
Shaykh Usamah Bin-Muhammad Bin-Ladin
Ayman al-Zawahiri, amir of the Jihad Group in Egypt
Abu-Yasir Rifa'i Ahmad Taha, Egyptian Islamic Group
Shaykh Mir Hamzah, secretary of the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Pakistan
Fazlur Rahman, amir of the Jihad Movement in Bangladesh
Praise be to Allah, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said: I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but Allah is worshipped, Allah who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders

[Whirlwind]

In embryonic Palestine, Palestinian Arabs are fighting to keep the IDF/Settlers off of their land, from staeling their water resources, and attempting to maintain their dignity are attacked, killed, wounded and maimed with US supplied AH-64 Longbow attack helicopters bristling with the horrendous US supplied Hellfire/TOW antitank missiles. F-16's and Bradley APC's are also supplied to the IDF by the US to kill Palestinian civilians that refuse to drop their primative arms, kneel and surrender to the Jewish interlopers.

Often, Israeli IAF F-16's has been known to drop a 2,000 lb. US supplied JDAM bomb on a Palestinian apartment building in Gaza as the IDF pursues a Palestinian terrorist "suspect" and thus killing men, woman and children alike, and what can you say when it comes "time to pay the pipper?"

The Arabs are continiously disarmed in general and the Palestinian's are prevented from obtaining arms in particular, thus making a people without an army or weapons to defend its people become victims of a brutal Israeli "occupation" Army.

So, when desperate people do desperate things, like put on a bomb belt and walk to the nearest IDF check point or get on a Jerusalem bus and blow a handfull of the "enemy" to smithereens can we really blame them?

If you have not walked a mile in the Palestinian's moccasins - then, how much is your opinion worth?

Whirlwind :)

[Whirlwind]

When a fully armed and trained army attacks another fully armed and trained army - that's amore!

When the Israeli IDF attacks unarmed Palestinians civlians - often "baiting" kids and then shooting them through the head or thorax from 1,000 meters away with the help of one of their sniperscoped killers, that's cowardance!

See: WWW.RememberTheseChildren.org

Whirlwind :(

[Whirlwind]

I dont have a problem with the fact that they (ignorantly) feel that they need to blow themselves up (good riddance). I have a problem with their targets. The kill INNOCENT CIVILIANS. The do NOT attack MILITARY targets. They ONLY attack UNARMED people. That makes them COWARDS in the greatest meaning of the word.

Whirlwind: Lemmie see if I have you right Bubba.

You believe that civilian's that have been attacked by a fully armed army should pick up a stone and "go at 'em."

Looks like you'd make a great martyr in your first scurmish pal....

Actually, you hit 'em where it hurts most!

Note: Seems to me that the cowards are those that attack civilians with tanks, anti-tank missiles and fighter aircraft and those that cheer for the criminal's, don't you? :)

The Whirlwind :D

[Eddie]

The bravest people are those who love their enemies.

[Zarkov]

>> let us, for a moment, see the world through another prism - as they have been torn to pieces by our bombs in afghanistan and Iraq.

I agree Proud Muslem.

This is the mother of all wars, and I am sure the conscience driven people will win.... eventually.

The west has lost its conscience... it is totally morally bankrupt...... doomed.... however it could take the whole of LIFE with it in its destruction... its lust for illusionary money before living things will bring only death to those who persue this path....

LIFE will only smile when LIFE is extinct here.... it has already seeded to other places..... but will your children thank YOU !!!!!!!!!

Lets hope enough good people will really open their eyes before it is toooooooooooo late.

[VAKEMP]

Terrorists vs. Russia: Lost
Terrorists vs. Israel: Losing
Terrorists vs. US: Losing

I see a trend. Regardless of what side you are on regarding this subject, I think we can all agree that the methods of persuasion that the terrorists are using/have used aren't effective.

Current terrorist methods is like Bill Gates slapping Mike Tyson. You might get the first hit in...

[Maia]

Comparing the military might that the West has and the might that the terrorists have, I have one thing to say to the terrorists.

Go home. :rolleyes:

[Eluminate]

yes vakemp you got what i was talking about finally.

[Zarkov]

Struggle for dignity, and a place to be secure and a place made from your own efforts to raise your children and so be able to give them hope for the future
IS such a basic need for all LIFE's creatures that they will die or KILL (fight) for it if such respect is not given.

A few driven dedicated people upsetting complacent people can change public opinion.....
and nothing will stop the struggle until all of LIFE's organisms obey their commmon direct conscience automatically and give other life forms the respect that is due.

Without this we are all doomed.... you are anyway IMO, but you will struggle just like the so call 'terrorists' ( they are people, just like you, who just want to survive with HOPE for their children)

LIFE of this planet is at the crossroads, it does not care which way it goes....
HOWEVER we care (do we?????????)

it can go annual... and all is destroyed (LIFE has already seeded to another place)
OR
it can go perennial... where we grow anew... for this to happen we HAVE TO BE together.... and the common conscience must he brought back from the dead and allowed to rule ( ie the universal metal pois-oning of Earth's people has to be addressed and people treated)

What are the chances?????????????????????


I am leaving this planet and you all to your fate, so I don't care either.... it is really up to you... yes you who are reading this.... together people can give the basic right's of LIFE to all people.....
:)

[Eluminate]

Fine the "West was warned" but what happens when it gets up and starts kicking "the East" In the face till its wiped out ? Cause thats where it ultimately leads to.

[Zarkov]

>> but what happens when it gets up and starts kicking "the East" In the face till its wiped out ?

There are only two outcomes.... together as one
OR

extinction.

Go for it, wipe them out, gain that mentality and that is the end of you.

[Dr Lou Natic]

Thats bullshit zarkov, together as one = extinction. This is just a rule of nature. Why do you think social species lay claim to territory and defend anyone from entering? Why don't they all just get along? There is a reason, figure it out for yourself.
You'll find nature is infinitely more logical than human society. And it rewards competitive, combative behaviour for a reason. One that is going to kick us in the ass hard for not being more combative.

[Zarkov]

>> . And it rewards competitive, combative behaviour for a reason

Thats bullshit Dr Lou !!!!!!

If you knew more ecology, you would know one species does not make another species extinct..... there is always a middle path.... It is inconceivable that within ONE ORGANISM in a local frame, that any parts are redundant to the integrated whole, they are all designed to interconnect and co-operate.

Are you questioning Nature.... typical human ignorance... you HUMAN, YOU king, stupid and arrogant thinking.....

No there is only two paths and humans on this hunk of rock are taking the ignorant default option leading to extinction.

Clean up your act, and realise God will not save you, it is up to us to grow up and learn what is offered by Nature for our own sake.... our survival depends upon it.

You think sitting in a tin can in space will save you..... LOL.... fools, our destiny is to save us from ourselves FIRST and survive AS ONE, then we will have to survive many more dangers.... but war is ignorance and will only destroy what is left of the human conscience.... leading to death of LIFE on this planet.

AND that means ALL of you....eventually

So you want a secure future for YOUR children??????

Then do something about it now, before it is all out of anyones control.

[Maia]

"West versus East"?

Somehow that seems to conjure an image of allied American-British-French forces fighting off Chinese, Japanese, and Taiwanese troops? :bugeye:

I'm pretty sure the West isn't fighting *all* of the East? :eek:

[Dr Lou Natic]

>> . And it rewards competitive, combative behaviour for a reason

Thats bullshit Dr Lou !!!!!!

If you knew more ecology, you would know one species does not make another species extinct
You need to think a little more before you post.
I know a species isn't supposed to make another extinct, know why humans are causing a mass extinction right now? Because they aren't killing eachother enough. As soon as the quarrelling slowed down the earth started degrading.


.... there is always a middle path.... It is inconceivable that within ONE ORGANISM in a local frame, that any parts are redundant to the integrated whole, they are all designed to interconnect and co-operate.
Don't know what you're talking about. Humans are one species, tribes of humans are supposed to fight each other, I'm not suggesting humans do anything to other species, quite the opposite. If humans were fighting more it would be a great for the planet and its other species. If they never stopped quarrelling at the rate they were supposed to quarreling we wouldn't know what "conservation" means because the earth would be in perfect condition and we couldn't even grasp the concept of environmental problems.


Are you questioning Nature.... typical human ignorance... you HUMAN, YOU king, stupid and arrogant thinking.....
Check who you're talking to, idiot.


No there is only two paths and humans on this hunk of rock are taking the ignorant default option leading to extinction
You don't seem to understand that humans are naturally supposed to fight eachother. Thats what keeps our population in check and it stops us from using all the planets resources, leaving none for anything else.
Since tolerance was preached by the bible humans have stopped fighting eachother to a significant enough degree to screw up the earth's environment. People need to be fighting, its actually good for the eco-system, just like hyenas fighting eachother is good for the environment, and wolves and lions and chimps and baboons etc etc etc.


Clean up your act, and realise God will not save you, it is up to us to grow up and learn what is offered by Nature for our own sake.... our survival depends upon it
LMAO Are you even talking to me?


You think sitting in a tin can in space will save you..... LOL.... fools, our destiny is to save us from ourselves FIRST and survive AS ONE, then we will have to survive many more dangers.... but war is ignorance and will only destroy what is left of the human conscience.... leading to death of LIFE on this planet
Garbage. You don't understand nature at all. Stop using it as a reference because you are blatantly misquoting it.
You can either choose human comfort or nature. By saying no to war you are declaring war on nature, got it? Pick your side. I'm pro war, of any kind that involves human vs human, the planet is thirsting for it. If you are against wars then you obviously care more about human beings than you do the planet.
You can't pick and choose. Your convictions needs to make sense.


AND that means ALL of you....eventually

So you want a secure future for YOUR children??????

Then do something about it now, before it is all out of anyones control.
You're a fool and an embarrassment.
War exists to keep humans in check, its common knowledge, ethological fact, that inner-specific conflict exists purely to keep a species in check with the environment its in. Inner specific conflict has never made a species extinct.
We have wars FOR the environment(we don't know that, but thats why we as an animal are interested in wars), so its incredibly ironic that you are preaching what you are preaching. And calling ME religious??? hahaha, whether you realise it or not, your pro-peace view stems directly from religious influence and makes zero sense outside of that context.

You have the most ironically contradictory view of the world I have ever heard someone explain.

[Tiassa]

Laugh of the week
Terrorists vs. US: LosingHey, truth, justice and the American way are currently blanked. Goose-egged. Zeroed. Shut out.

Terrorsts v. US

• Freedom damaged? Yes
• People scared? Yes
• Al Qaeda? Still potent
• Taleban? Gaining ground in Afghanistan
• American prestige? Tarnished
• Dead American civilians, 9/11: 2,749
• Dead civilians Afghanistan/Iraq: Unknown. Low estimate 13,700. (10,000 Iraq (http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/032004H.shtml); 3,700 Afghanistan (http://sspglenrothes.freehosting.net/civilian.htm))

The only thing we're winning at is the body count. And as the Israeli situation shows, when you are dealing with angry Muslims, killing innocent civilians just doesn't work.

I must disagree. While I acknowledge the hordes that are unable to conceive of the possiblity of the terrorists having the upper hand, the least we can say is that the US is clearly not winning.

[Dr Lou Natic]

If something similar arose 50 years ago the us would have already won.
Its not like muslims are a "formidable adversary" that the us is "struggling" to defeat.
They're just concerned with being polite, and are still trying to figure out a way to win while keeping a polite image in tact. For obvious reasons, they are struggling with this challenge. The very act of war is inherently impolite, and you can't win a war without fighting one.
So this will probably go on for some time yet, at least untill someone with balls gets into the white house.

[Tiassa]

They're just concerned with being polite, and are still trying to figure out a way to win while keeping a polite image in tact.I was almost premature in declaring a Laugh of the Week. That one's pretty close.

The United States government, at present, is not particularly concerned about being polite.

Although, there is that certain politeness that comes with elitist society--euphemistic, nearly Victorian, downright silly--that isn't actually polite at all.

What they're actually worried about is essentially a Q-rating. It's the American presidency and Congress and so forth; name recognition is high. But postive sentiment?

Okay, they're not worried about Q-ratings, either.

Either one of those take too much effort. Rather, what they're worried about is convincing us that they're being polite.

[Dr Lou Natic]

Thats what I meant.
The fact remains they aren't really fighting a war with full force.

[DeeCee]

The fact remains they aren't really fighting a war with full force.
Like Vietnam Lou?
Dee Cee

[Zarkov]

>> I'm pro war, of any kind that involves human vs human, the planet is thirsting for it.

Well I know what your psyche has degenerated into.... how about putting your loved ones in the front line.... surely that would be good for them...

You sicken me

>> The fact remains they aren't really fighting a war with full force.

Helicopter gun ships with missiles in built up areas ....... horrific
Women and babies and disabled, all legitimate targets... mmmmh I wonder who are the barbarians......

It turns out that even if nuclear war was initiated..... the fight will go one...and at such close quarters the backlash would be considerable.

I can assure you the stakes are high.... but all hands are tied because the world is such a small place..... LOL
Doomed I say, all the war mungers are all doomed to stand on your heads again, in shit......
I just wish we could send you all to the Moon to fight your madness.

[Eluminate]

Women & babies are legitemate targets if they are wives and sons of terorists. They will only breed more hate and more terror and indoctrinate it in their offspring better to kill them all.

[Zarkov]

>> Women & babies are legitemate targets if they are wives and sons of terorists. They will only breed more hate and more terror and indoctrinate it in their offspring better to kill them all.>>>

Wonder how many humans will support this ?

I expect this planet will have to be destroyed.

[Dr Lou Natic]

Stop talking about the planet. Please.
The earth won't crumble if a few people get hurt. Humans could be wiped off the planet completely and the planet would infact regain health.
If you are anti-war to save the planet then you are a joke who's mind doesn't make any sense at all.
If you are anti-war, you are automatically anti-nature.
And if your "world peace" wish came true the whole planet would be destroyed.

[gendanken]

MacM:

ANS: ANd that is very unfortunate since it means they will all be lost. But civilized mankind cannot simply step aside and allow others to decide they and only they should rule the world and that only they must survive. Those that think like that bring about their own demise.
True, no one should step aside and let our little coutry throw its weight around but it looks like its only the Muslim world that has something to say about it.

Look around my friend- everyone's dying to be an American. Seems like the only demise, unfortunately, will be graves upon graves of Muslim corpses that will one day realize how futile their vengeance is.

Dr. Lou:

If you are anti-war, you are automatically anti-nature.

How so?

[glaucon]

Look around my friend- everyone's dying to be an American.

Uhh.. just as an aside here, that is patently, not the case.
'Everyone' miiight be dying to enjoy the luxuries that most American's do, but to actually be an American?, nah.

[Don Hakman]

Nobody is automatically anything.


Everything is a progression of education and intelligence.


In my opinion the US is operating like a half wit by abandoning soft power and using only hard power that alienates countries and forments hatred.


A country can not function without both hard and soft power.

If I try to point to a success in creating a Democracy in any of the countries that the US used hard power of regieme change, guns and bombs in Latin America there may not be a single one except Mexico and that is very debatable and complex.

The fledgling democracy that is trying to grow in Russia was achieved with a combination of hard and soft power.

The current Iraq formula is indeed a script of abject failure.

Guns are required for extremists like bin Laden and the Arab Brotherhood but the vast moderate population who could welcome democracy are alienated without any use of soft power to gain even a modicum of respect for the US at this point.

The staunch hard line of 'America right or wrong', 'kill em all and let god sort them out' , 'the end justifies the means' and 'principles are fine but are usless if you lose' are all a formula of failure for all concerned.

Heart and mind together, hard and soft power together can plant seeds of democracy.
Hard power alone plants weeds of hatred.
Soft power alone plants feeble seeds open to infection.

It takes both.

The Bush doctrine is obviously only the hard road.

[Nebuchadnezzaar]

don't be so ignorant people, terrorism is not a threat and the US is just about the only thing which keeps this world ticking over at least half-safely.

[Zarkov]

>> the US is just about the only thing which keeps this world ticking over

by corrupting the morals of the conscience, the US is culpable and should be taken to the world court. It has recently stooped so low that it has destroyed the very moral fibre that made it a once great nation and shinning becon for the world. No so anymore, and it is coercing other nations into its cesspit.

>> at least half-safely.

The US consumes and excretes the bulk of the oil produced in the world.... wastefully and irresponsibly... it is the unburnt oil spread over the world's waters, oceans and seas that is bringing on the Earth's desication (incorrectly named 'the greenhouse effect') that is fatally affecting billions of innocent people's lives.

To cause harm to others by irresponsible acts of self gain in my book is paramount to murder.

[VAKEMP]

Terrorsts v. US

• Freedom damaged? Yes


I don't see havig to wait an extra hour or two to catch a flight particularly damaging to my freedom. I see it as being more damaging to the terrorist who is trying to use planes as missiles.



• People scared? Yes


Scared? Not really. See counter-points below for explanation.



• Al Qaeda? Still potent


Still exists, yes. Still potent? Well, I agree that Al Qaida still exists. As long as they exist they will do what they do best.



• Taleban? Gaining ground in Afghanistan


Now THAT is the Laugh of the Week!

What exactly is the Taliban gaining ground from? Oh yeah, it is from what the US took from them. And where do you get your info that they are gaining ground?



• American prestige? Tarnished


It seems people are either for or against the US. People will change their minds as they have the freedom to. Eventually, one side will win, and the other will lose. It matters none to me.



• Dead American civilians, 9/11: 2,749
• Dead civilians Afghanistan/Iraq: Unknown. Low estimate 13,700. (10,000 Iraq; 3,700 Afghanistan)


"Unknown, but estimates accurate down to the hundreds! Brilliant!" (In the voice of the geniuses in the Guinness commercials)



The only thing we're winning at is the body count. And as the Israeli situation shows, when you are dealing with angry Muslims, killing innocent civilians just doesn't work.


Good thing the US isn't targeting innocent civilians. You and I both know that if that was their intent, there wouldn't be a Fallujah anymore.



I must disagree. While I acknowledge the hordes that are unable to conceive of the possiblity of the terrorists having the upper hand, the least we can say is that the US is clearly not winning.


...and to say the terrorists are accomplishing their goals would be incorrect as well:

Terrorist goals:
•Remove infidels from the holy land: Failing. In fact, there are more infidels there now than before, and they seem intent on staying there, thanks to the terrorists.

Yeah, hiding in their own lands, with their leader making love to a goat in a cave. Tell-tale signs that the terrorists have the upper hand!

[Whirlwind]

on sept 10 2001 there was no 'war on terror' yet the next day 3000 people were killed

the thinking of "if we'll let them get away with it maybe they'll stop" does not work or "if we don't help america maybe they won't attack us" doesn't work either we're not dealing with rational people here or some formal organization with clear long-term objectives (well except one - islam will take over the world) only short-term ones (kill kill kill the infidel)

what we're dealing with is religious fanatics, pure and simple
there is no way to appease them. NO WAY

islamist terrorism is a plague like communism and fascism was
and it too will fall

give it a decade or 2

Whirlwind replies: Interesting, this post of yours..... (but shouldn't you take off them blinders?).

The only thing you did not repeat what prez DIM BULB said from the safety of the oval room a few days after WTC:

"They hate us because we're free!"

My God, where will this madness end!

The plain truth is that we had not noticed the terrorists before 9-11 because the (US/Israel) "evil Twins" are the terrorists! Thus, the "Evil Twins," DBA: Terrorists-R-Us (or as others call it) Murder, Inc (Middle East division), doesn't register on American's minds until the caca hits the fan

Israel's, murdering, maiming and displacing of the Palestinian's with US weaponry (in violation of the US Export Arms Act) and US taxpayer financing -not to mention the demolishing of people's homes where they have lived for generations (with US supplied 60 ton Caterpillar bull dozers) in hopes that they will "move along" and let more Settler interlopers build on each site has been the "name of the game" in the Occupied Territories for 38 years now and the US has financed this travesty of justice, not to mention gross violation of the the Geneva Convention of 1949 with a "wink" at the Geneva Convention of 1949 and little else. (not to mention Israel's newest project: The Jewish "Berlin Wall.").

Now, all hell breaks loose and America wonders, why?

In Afghanistan and Iraq the US has killed over 17,000 civilains with their horrendous cluster bombs and JDAMS and what do Americans say? They say unanamously? "So what!" - do Americans really care - NOPE!

Now 4 America civilians (though armed to the hilt) are killed and their bodies burned and then mutilated and strung up for public display, and the Iraqi's, what do they say? They say, "So what!" Do they really care? NOPE!

Oooh, aaah, but now the US wants to "nuke" Falluja, huh?

Whirlwind....

"Islamic terrorism is a plague," you say?

Then what is US hegmony and Israeli apartheid? :(

A blessing? :D

[Hastein]

I refrain from any speculation on the war due to the fact that I have little knowledge about what is actually going on. Perhaps you all should. Then again, every American has to have an opinion, don't they?

[Eluminate]

just kill ALL those mid eastern guys that hate us and make the rest be slaves for 10 years or so earning their right and loyalty to be free in the 52nd state East Virginia known formerly as Iraq. I m sure they will enjoy becoming Athiest and secular with no islamic religion in mind at all. That will make all the others think 53 times before they even consider doing anything bad to US.

[otheadp]

The only thing you did not repeat ...:
"They hate us because we're free!"

you know what, it's as simple as it gets.
we do not abide by their version of Islam. we are free to drink alcohol, free to have sex before marriage - with anyone we want, free to charge usury, free to worship insects if we please, etc.

they hate that we do not submit to allah and see it their holy duty bestowed onto them from above to remove what they see as the infidel scurge.

as for "US hegemony" and "Israeli apartheid", when you (arabs) deal with your own shit, then you can criticize others for hegemony and apartheid.
if you're a westerner and not an arab, i urge you to visit saudi arabia

[NetSpider]

Liberal Democracy

This is what going to destroy the west civilization .

The muslim leaders knows it ,and they using it for there own porpuse .

[otheadp]

"Through their Democracy we will invade them, with Islam we will dominate them"

this Liberal Democracy of ours must be protected at all cost, before things get even worse and it gets harder

[MacM]

TO THE QUOTE:

"Through their Democracy we will invade them, with Islam we will dominate them"

Pure unadultrated horseshit. I will be standing long after the dead , buried and bug rittled carcusus of religious fanatics have stopped stinking. I will not have accepted Allah or Christ and I will feel and be far better for it.

[crazy151drinker]

We are hardly using full force.

We could be doing things WWII style- ie bomb/shell the city till nothing stands. Or we could just drop a nuke.

Be thankfull Reagan is not longer president *lol*, Lasers would be coming out of the sky!

[Whirlwind]

[QUOTE=otheadp]on sept 10 2001 there was no 'war on terror' yet the next day 3000 people were killed

Whirlwind responds....

Interesting, the US/Israeli brand of terrorism doesn't seem to register with most Americans, huh proud Muslim? :rolleyes:

WTC happened (in part) because of the US' propensity for "looking the other way" as Israel practices its US financed apartheidnik style of STATE SPONSORED TERRORISM, EXTRA-JUDICIAL EXECUTIONS (i.e. murder), BIGOTRY, RACISM (Jewish only by-pass reads isn't racism?), SECURITY FENCES (that steal hundreds of thousands of dunams of Palestinian land and separate Palestinians from their villages, farms, crops, Mosques and even each other ) and even HUMAN BONDAGE, including the daily murder of basically unarmed Palestinian civilian's "on their own turf" by an army of occupation with no respect for the 1949 Geneva Convention protocols, with US supplied weaponry in violation of the US Export Arms Export Act as the US' president "looks the other way."

Want more proof of Jewish terrorism?

See: WWW.RememberTheseChildren.org

Note: 63 years ago the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbour because the US was tightening the noose on Japan by taking away its access to vital oil in SE Asia.

This is now called PRE-EMPTIVE WAR by the NeoCon Bushwackers.

Note: In the 1980's there was no "war on Terror," in Panama and along came America one pitch black night and massacred 6,000 innocent Panamanians because the US wanted to take out a Saddam-like US "puppet" that was no longer willing to dance to our tune. Of-course, American's were not concerned by all of this the blood letting - after all, the people killed were not white.

The days when America went all over the world murdering and maiming people that do not agree with our political way of thinking are over and WTC was but the 1st blow in this new war.

US batting average:*

Nagazaki: 100,000 massacred civlians.
Heroshima: 80,000 masacred civilains.
Vietnam: 1,400,000 massacred civilains.
Laos & Cambodia: 750,000 massacred civilians.
Grenada: 420 Cuban construction people killed.

Israel's batting average.*

Lebanon (1982) 28,000 civilians masacred in Lebanon. (500,000 left
wounded, maimmed and homeless.
Sabra & Shatila: 2,000 Paly civlians massacred by the SLA/IDF
killers.
Israel's Khiam torture prison: Hundred's tortured and murdered by the SLA/IDF.

__________________________________________________ ______________

Al-Queda *

WTC: 3,000 people massacred.

As you can see, the world has some "catching up to do" and O'Sammy bin Laden is but the 1st terrorist the US has to contend with.

Whirlwind.... +

+ Looking at every "angle" of the political rubiks cube.
* Estimates

[Whirlwind]

the survivors will not forget this

you bet they won't
US has a new best friend in the middle east.
if not now, then in a few years when Iraq gets stabalized.

Whirlwind replies: :o

Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha, lQQKS like you (like George W. Bush) don't read books and/or newspapers. :D

Trying to make a Iraq a democracy will be like trying to make whoremonger and bribe taker Neil Bush an honest man, ha-ha-ha-ha.

Hell, if we can't make Haiti, minutes from our shores, a center piece of Democracy, what can we expect in the Middle East where they hate our CRUSADER guts with much justification?

Hell, if that pseudo democracy (A nation with no CONSTITUTION, no BILL of RIGHTS and no DEFINED BORDERS) we see in Apartheidnik Israel is an example of America's GOOD WORK in the Middle East we have already lost Iraq! :rolleyes:

Whirlwind....

[crazy151drinker]

Vietnam: 1,400,000 massacred civilains.
Laos & Cambodia: 750,000 massacred civilians.

Not by the US.
But since you mentioned Nagasaki and Hiroshima, why didnt you mention the 1,000,000 Chinese civilians massacred by the Japanese?? I guess your argument is too one sided.....

[Whirlwind]

Vietnam: 1,400,000 massacred civilains.
Laos & Cambodia: 750,000 massacred civilians.

Not by the US.

But since you mentioned Nagasaki and Hiroshima, why didnt you mention the 1,000,000 Chinese civilians massacred by the Japanese?? I guess your argument is too one sided.....
__________________________________________________ ______________

Whirlwind replies: :o

Sorry, I just happened to be watching unindicted war criminal Robert NcNamara (of Vietnam fame) on C-Span 10 days ago and he seemed rather proud of that 1.4 million civilian deaths in Vietnam number.

He was especially glib about the greatly increased civilian deaths that occurred after the Pentagon's "Gulf of Tonkin Resolution" lies and half truths and the great increase in civilian deaths that occurred after the US sent masses of its heavy B-52 bombers to 'work on the north" after the Tonkin Resolution was passed by the US Congress.

Note: Interesting, huh? The war criminals are always on the losing side of a war. :eek:

Messr. Henry Kissinger is another war criminal (Chile) that continues to elude justice, though he had a close call on Spain (Barcelona) in 2002 when he had to leave his hotel in the middle of the night and take an emergency flight to the US as he was "tipped off" that the Barcelona police were on the way to arrest him, a-la-Agusto Pinochet, style.

As for the Japanese, yes the massacres at Nanking (1927-1932) were a real holocaust but you must remember that Japan has been out of the genocide business for many decades now.

Besides, their attack of Pearl Harbour now seems to have been justified under George W. Bush's PREEMPTIVE WAR DOCTRINE inasmuch as the US was cutting off Japans sources of vital oil as the Japanese tentacles reached throughout SE Asia.

Whirlwind....

One sided facts? :confused:

Yes, like in Israel where the US arms the LIKUDNIK's to the gills while disarming ther Arabs....

[Spyke]

As for the Japanese, yes the massacres at Nanking (1927-1932) were a real holocaust but you must remember that Japan has been out of the genocide business for many decades now.

That's true. Because the US put them out of the genocide business.


Besides, their attack of Pearl Harbour now seems to have been justified under George W. Bush's PREEMPTIVE WAR DOCTRINE inasmuch as the US was cutting off Japans sources of vital oil as the Japanese tentacles reached throughout SE Asia.

But isn't an embargo similar to containment? I would think anyone who preferred the containment of Iraq to the pre-emptive war would agree that the US oil embargo in 1940 was preferable to war with Japan, and was a legitimate tool short of war to attempt to prevent Japanese aggression in the Far East.

[crazy151drinker]

"As for the Japanese, yes the massacres at Nanking (1927-1932) were a real holocaust but you must remember that Japan has been out of the genocide business for many decades now."

Oh, I guess that makes it ok then. Well being that Vietnam was almost 30 years ago, I guess everyone is cleared of their crimes.

[munim_786]

US tactics appalling, say British officers
April 13, 2004

The British Prime Minister, Tony Blair, has come under the strongest domestic political pressure yet to demand restraint from the US military, a bigger United Nations role and more say for Britain over decisions taken in Iraq.

Mr Blair, who is to meet President George Bush this week, came under fire from the Conservative opposition and appeared to be losing support among his back-benchers over the Iraq policy.

One senior army officer in southern Iraq said that the US's aggressive methods were causing friction among allied commanders and that there was a growing sense of "unease and frustration" among the British high command.

The officer, who would not be identified, said: "My view and the view of the British chain of command is that the Americans' use of violence is not proportionate and is over-responsive to the threat they are facing. They are not concerned about the Iraqi loss of life in the way the British are.

"The US troops view things in very simplistic terms. It seems hard for them to reconcile subtleties between who supports what and who doesn't in Iraq. As far as they are concerned Iraq is bandit country and everybody is out to kill them."

Although no formal complaints have as yet been made to their US counterparts, the officer said the British Government was aware of its commanders' "concerns and fears".

He explained that British troops would never be given clearance to carry out attacks such as the US helicopter gunship assaults on targets in urban areas.
"When US troops are attacked with mortars in Baghdad they use mortar-locating radar to find the firing point and then attack the general area with artillery, even though . . . it may be in'the middle of a densely populated residential area :eek: ."
While it was trite, "American troops do shoot first and ask questions later", he said.

Despite private doubts about US tactics in Iraq, Britain's Defence Minister, Geoff Hoon, insisted the British-US coalition would not postpone its plan to hand sovereignty to Iraq on June 30.

He doubted the need for extra British troops. The situation was calm in the British sector, he said.

But the Conservative Party leader, Michael Howard, implied that British diplomats did not have enough sway with the US.

Britain's presence had been weakened by the departure of Mr Blair's special envoy, Sir Jeremy Greenstock, last month, he said.

Sir Jeremy left at the end of his six-month contract, handing over to his less experienced deputy, David Richmond.

Mr Howard said it had never been more important for Britain to have a strong voice in Baghdad, and called on the Government to appoint a "senior and experienced" representative to serve as the deputy to the US administrator, Paul Bremer.

The former foreign secretary Robin Cook urged Mr Blair to be robust with Mr Bush.

Labour Party MPs, who backed the war in Iraq in a crucial parliamentary vote, voiced grave doubts about their decision.

The Guardian; The Telegraph, London; Press Association

[crazy151drinker]

This coming from a culture that supports people who blow up city buses. Hypocrites.

[Spyke]

Put the British in the Sunni Triangle and see what happens.

[hungvu]

Pround Muslim,

Are you suggesting that this war should not had been started because there would have been casualty? If you have not yet realized it, casualty always accompanies war including, unfortunately, civilians. Be reminded that our military do not intentionally kill any civilian but instead tried their best to avoid civilian casualty. For example, the marines could have bombed every place where terrorists from inside had shot at them but instead, knowing that their lives would be more risky, they did not do that because there might have been civilian in there.

By the way, casualty does not include only civilians but also includes terrorists who has been able to demonstrate what they could do to the world stability.

[crazy151drinker]

Proud Muslim,

If you are so concered about Civilians then why do you support people who intentionally blow them up?

[Whirlwind]

Proud Muslim,

If you are so concered about Civilians then why do you support people who intentionally blow them up?

Lemmie clear the air for you Senor Muslim: :o

The murder of civilians becomes the center of conversation but "only" when it is "your" civilians that have been murdered, maimed, wounded or otherwise incapacitated by the opposition.

Example:

1. When an IDF F-16 drops a JDAM on a Palestinian village like Jenin and massacres a dozen Palys - this is no biggie!

2. When the Iraqi's murder four US ex-military "hired guns" (AKA: Civilians) this is called murder!

3. When US cluster bombs massacre an entire village of 100 peasant civilians in Afghanistan - this is called "America's war against Terrorism."

4. When a Palestinian CRUISE BOMBER takes out an Israeli bus full of IDF soldiers and civilians THAT'S AMORE (just kidding :p ), I mean that's TERRORISM. :eek:

To make it short it's called RELATIVITY Proud Muslim!

Salaaaaaam!

Whirlwind....

[otheadp]

5. when Whirlwind came home from 'Nam and the first hooker whom he paid to blow him bit it off and spit it in his face, that's amore

[crazy151drinker]

The difference is that one is intentional and the other was an accident. Why cant you see the difference?
You wouldnt happen to have your GPS cordinates handy would you??

[Preacher_X]

Pround Muslim,

Are you suggesting that this war should not had been started because there would have been casualty? If you have not yet realized it, casualty always accompanies war including, unfortunately, civilians. Be reminded that our military do not intentionally kill any civilian but instead tried their best to avoid civilian casualty. For example, the marines could have bombed every place where terrorists from inside had shot at them but instead, knowing that their lives would be more risky, they did not do that because there might have been civilian in there.

By the way, casualty does not include only civilians but also includes terrorists who has been able to demonstrate what they could do to the world stability.

are you forgetting the 1 MILLION iraqi CHILDREN (and newborn babies) that died DIRECTLY becasue of US SACTIONS. and yes you do AIM for suvillians becasue the millions kids didnt die over night the SLOWLY starved to death so US could of stopped at anytime. they even restricted (and cut at stages) AID WORKERS from helping.

[Preacher_X]

Pround Muslim,
For example, the marines could have bombed every place where terrorists from inside had shot at them but instead, knowing that their lives would be more risky, they did not do that because there might have been civilian in there.

By the way, casualty does not include only civilians but also includes terrorists who has been able to demonstrate what they could do to the world stability.

IDIOT READ THE REPORT ABOVE BY THE BRITSIH SOLDIERS describing American fighting tactics.
you idiot you dont know American milatry tactics at all. if a certain house is shooting America are NOT ADVISED to go there and fight them with there MORE POWERFUL machine guns and their bullet proof vests, instead the call for back up which will send one or 2 fighters or a tank to bomb the ENTIRE AREA and then a helicopter to kill the rest of the people. that is why the death tolls for Civiallians is always so high in US fights.

If a US soldier will detect mortar on the thier mortar radar they are ORDERED to bomb the entire area.

America wont deny this if you ASK them but they never tell you if you dont - its called PROPOGANDA.

[Preacher_X]

luckily the British may write a letter to the Pentagon which will bring much needed world attention and media coverage of how America is barbarically fighting.

[Vienna]

luckily the British may write a letter to the Pentagon which will bring much needed world attention and media coverage of how America is barbarically fighting.

OMG - You mean America is actually Fighting - I'm sooo shocked LOL! :D

[Zarkov]

>> The war criminals are always on the losing side of a war

>> America is barbarically fighting.

The world has lost it...... you all will be next.... 80-90% of the world's human population is on the hit list by "the new world order".

>> Be reminded that our military do not intentionally kill any civilian

No, there are far more subtle methods, but it is MURDER just the same.
When you are caught stealing, and you kill the owner of the goods, this is murder, not self defence.

[MacM]

Preacher_X,

While you are giving credits lets not forget to give Sadam credit for a few hundred thousand men, women and children he gassed deliberately and for the $Billions he stole from aid sent to help those starving people.

Really stupid. Ahhhh.

[Paula]

Why is it that Muslims don't care when Muslims such as the Kurds are being killed by Muslims, or when Christians in Nigeria and Sudan are being killed by Muslims, or when Hinuds and Lamaistic Buddhists are being killed in Kashmir by Muslims or anyone within the blast radius of a car bomb is being killed by Muslims but when Muslims are being killed by non-Muslims it's a holy war?

Just curious.

[Vienna]

Its called muslim logic - vile isn't it?

[Whirlwind]

>> The war criminals are always on the losing side of a war

>> America is barbarically fighting.

The world has lost it...... you all will be next.... 80-90% of the world's human population is on the hit list by "the new world order".

>> Be reminded that our military do not intentionally kill any civilian

No, there are far more subtle methods, but it is MURDER just the same.
When you are caught stealing, and you kill the owner of the goods, this is murder, not self defence.
__________________________________________________ ______________

You're climbing up the "SLIPPERY SLOPE fellow, the resident zealots "will eat you up!" :(

But, I will add to their woes, OK? :o

Four and a half million Vietnamese massacred by US B-52's in Vietnam and 19 million gallons of Agent Orange (toxins) poured on the survivors, creating the biggest and worst environmental disaster in the history of mankind. [.....].

750,000 civilians massacred in Laos and Cambodia by these same "hero's."
6,000 civilains massacred in Panama in the abduction of Manuel Noriega.
120,000+ civilains massacred in America's BLACK WAR against the indigenous people of Central America in the 1980's by Reagan and his Jewish pals.

Oh yes, Like DIM BULB in the oval room sez,

"They hate us because we're free!"

Fool! :mad:

Whirlwind....

[Whirlwind]

Preacher_X,

While you are giving credits lets not forget to give Sadam credit for a few hundred thousand men, women and children he gassed deliberately and for the $Billions he stole from aid sent to help those starving people.

Really stupid. Ahhhh.


Ahhhh, a subject close to my heart. :)

For the record: (Which no one ever reads) Ronald Wilson Reagan provided all of these "inhumane" chemicals to good 'Ol Saddam to use against Iran - so would you be so craven as to second guess the "OL GIPPER," (God's gift to the GOP and to the builders of the "loser" B-1 bomber?).

Whirlwind.... :D

Pssst, you forgot to thank the US/England for the 300+ tons of DU (Depleted Uranium) with which they managed to start the current cancer epidemic among the Iraqi people starting with the Gulf War I?

[Zarkov]

>> Why is it that Muslims don't care when Muslims such as the Kurds are being killed by Muslims, or when Christians in Nigeria and Sudan are being killed by Muslims, or when Hinuds and Lamaistic Buddhists are being killed in Kashmir by Muslims or anyone within the blast radius of a car bomb is being killed by Muslims but when Muslims are being killed by non-Muslims it's a holy war?

Because some people look to the future... is the future RIGHT/ GOOD for our children or NOT.

The corrupt, deceitful american way of the WEST is not good for our children...
so what do you do?? be a friction to the wheel, or just wait for it all to end (bad luck kids) or do you just become a tool (apathy is destructive).

No I admire a person who would lay down their life for their kids, for right, for the GOOD (as Socrates would define it)

Fools, do you not realise 80 to 90% of the world's population is redundant, .......
..and you look to your leaders, but they will be the ones to wipe you all out!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The game afoot is very serious and most will be casualties, and eventually LIFE will cease here, YOU WILL ALL LOSE , because the common direct conscience has become extinct... there is no guiding direction, just tail spin into oblivion.
:( :(

[Vienna]

luckily the British may write a letter to the Pentagon which will bring much needed world attention and media coverage of how America is barbarically fighting.

He heee - The British might what? - write a letter? - LOL!

What utter crap.

:D

[Whirlwind]

Proud Muslim,

Let us, for a moment, see the world through at least one other prism - Because the United States and its allies intervened, no more will hundreds of thousands of Muslims per decade disappear, be raped, tortured, brutally murdered and thrown into mass graves by the ruthless regime of Saddam, the dictator of Iraq. Does this not soften your heart at least a little bit?

Yes, the citizen casualties are hard to take at this time and we pray for the souls of those who have died there this past year due to the foreign intervention. However, unlike Saddam, the United States and its allies are not purposefully targeting citizens and their presence in Iraq is temporary. Saddam's dictatorship was in Iraq to stay. Should the world have stood by, doing nothing, allowing this man and his regime to facilitate more mass-murders against Muslims?

Whirlwind comments.... :o

And here I was looking you up to congratulate you for the "world class" amount of viewers that have read your post and then I find this! :rolleyes:

1. You say that civilians are not being targeted.

Interesting, but over 20,000 civilians have died in Iraq and Afghanistan, (UN Human Rights Commission figures) victims of US cluster bombs, B-52's, C-130 Gunships, AH-64 attack helicopters and their horrendous Hellfire/TOW antitank missiles and other misc. weapons and ordinance.

Note: You must admit that this is a pretty high KILL RATIO for people that aren't targeting civilans.

2. The US presence in Iraq is "temporary!"

The US is planning the largest embassy in the Middle East in Bagdad. The US military projects a ten year stay in Iraq. I say they "never" leave until they are "kicked" out!

You have to understand the US "now" has bases surrounding Iran and Syria (Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan). US hegemony demands that the US stay in Iraq to raise hell with these other "axis of evil" countries. Especially since the US and Israel want to maintain "Nuclear" superiority in the Middle East and use this nuclear threat to subjugate the Arab world (and thus control the oil).

Now that we have "twisted" your rudder and have you "back on track" (GULP!). Please stay on course if indeed you are really a Muslim.

Whirlwind....

[Eluminate]

I say kill all those that opose us and leave those who will follow and be humble behind. Scorch everything and everyone that will not submit and leave the sheep behind. This will work for sure. All those radical mullas like Al-Sadr must be liquidated in the most gory fashion to show that they will not be tollerated any uprising in their favor should be squashed using napalm so that all of the people who affiliated with them get wiped out. After 1 such incident noone will rebel and everyone will be nice out of fear.

Such are the machiavellian ways of righteous conduct

[GuessWho]

The West was warned. Now it is paying the price

Pround Muslim,

Wrong! The west was attacked and the terrorists have been paying the price and will continue paying until they are eliminated.

The following are what you should have called warnings:

1. Taliban was warned and already paid the price.
2. Saddam was warned and already paid the price.
3. Hamas leaders were warned and already paid the price. Now they have taken the warning seriously and keep their leader identity secret.
4. Terrorists were warned and they are paying the price.

Now that you have been properly informed, you do not have to pay anything because I am providing all of these shock and aw news to you for free!

[otheadp]

PM is immune to logic and/or common sense
there's no point in providing him with any news

the Qur'an is all he needs

[Eluminate]

using pages from the Qur'an as toilet paper to wipe my arse.
Here you go allah eat sht and die...

[Paula]

Preacher X,

How do you justify complaining about how many thousands of deaths the US military is causing on the one hand, then talk about how we're paying the ultimate price on the other? You can either hate us because we're winning or you can hate us because we're losing but you really must make up your mind.

[Preacher_X]

Surely even a child can understand the difference between good and evil. :D

Dad ... what's a terrorist?
Well, according to the Oxford dictionary a terrorist is "a person who uses violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims". Which means that terrorists are very bad men and women who frighten ordinary people like us, and sometimes even kill them.

Why do they kill them?
Because they hate them or their country. It's hard to explain ... it's just the way things are. For many different reasons a lot of people in our world are full of hate.

Like the ones in Iraq who are capturing people and saying that they'll kill them if all the soldiers don't leave?
Exactly! That's an evil thing called "blackmail". Those innocent people are hostages, and the terrorists are saying that if governments don't do what they want the hostages will be killed.

So was it blackmail when we said we'd attack Iraq and kill innocent people unless they told us where all their weapons were?
No! Well ... yes, I suppose. In a way. But that was an "ultimatum" ... call it "good blackmail.

Good blackmail? What's that?
That's when it's done for good reasons. Those weapons were very dangerous and could have hurt a lot of people all over the world. It was very important to find them and destroy them.

But Dad ... there weren't any weapons.
True. We know that now. But we didn't at the time. We thought there were.

So was killing all those innocent people in Iraq a mistake?
No. It was a tragedy, but we also saved a lot of lives. You see, we had to stop a very cruel man called Saddam Hussein from killing a great many ordinary Iraqi people. Saddam Hussein stayed in power by giving orders that meant thousands of people died or were horribly injured. Mothers and fathers. Even children.

Like that boy I saw on TV? The one who had his arms blown off by a bomb?
Yes ... just like him.

But we did that. Does that mean our leaders are terrorists?
Good heavens, no! Whatever gave you that idea? That was just an accident. Unfortunately, innocent people get hurt in a war. You can't expect anything else when you drop bombs on cities. Nobody wants it to happen ... it's just the way things are.

So in a war only soldiers are supposed to get killed?
Well, soldiers are trained to fight for their country. It's their job, and they're very brave. They know that war is dangerous and that they might be killed. As soon as they put on a uniform they become a target.

What uniforms do terrorists wear?
That's just the problem ... they don't! We can't tell them apart from the civilians. We don't know who we're fighting. And that's why so many innocent people are getting killed ... the terrorists don't follow the rules of war.

War has rules?
Oh, yes. Soldiers must wear uniforms. And you can't just suddenly attack someone unless they do something to you first. Then you can defend yourself.

So that's why we attacked Iraq? Because Iraq attacked us first and we were just defending ourselves?
Not exactly. Iraq didn't attack us ... but it might have. We decided to get in first. Just in case Iraq used those weapons we were talking about.

The ones they didn't have? So we broke the rules of war?
Technically speaking, yes. But ...

So if we broke the rules first, why isn't it OK for those people in Iraq who aren't wearing uniforms to break the rules?
Well, that's different. We were doing the right thing when we broke the rules.

But Dad ... how do we know we were doing the right thing?
Our leaders ... Bush and Blair and Howard ... they told us it was the right thing. And if they don't know, who does? They say that something had to be done to make Iraq a better place.

Is it a better place?
I suppose so, but I don't know for sure. Innocent people are still being killed and these kidnappings are terrible things. I feel very sorry for the families of those poor hostages, but we simply can't give in to terrorists. We must stand firm.

Would you say that if I was captured by terrorists?
Uh ... yes ... no ... I mean, it's very difficult ...

So you'd let me be killed? Don't you love me?
Of course! I love you very much. It's just that it's a very complicated issue and I don't know what I'd do ...

Well, if somebody attacked us and bombed our house and killed you and Mum and Jamie I know what I'd do.
What?
I'd find out who did it and kill them. Any way I could. I'd hate them for ever and ever. And then I'd get in a plane and bomb their cities.

But ... but ... you'd kill a lot of innocent people.
I know. But it's war, Dad. And that's just the way things are. Remember?

By: David Campbell (my good buddy!) :D

[Preacher_X]

Preacher_X,

While you are giving credits lets not forget to give Sadam credit for a few hundred thousand men, women and children he gassed deliberately and for the $Billions he stole from aid sent to help those starving people.

Really stupid. Ahhhh.

and lets give America credit for supplying Sadam with money, weapons and training his army. yep, lets give America credit for supplying Sadam with biological weaopns against Iran and the moral support the provided him for a decade to do all of the wars and massacres he did.

then lets give America credit for all of a sudden abbandoning Sadam when America's interest of the iran war was finished. and then lets give America credit for killing over 1,000,000 Iraqi children and completely destroying Iraqs economy and then having a war with iraq.

and thats before we even go in to Americas support for the Taliban!

[Preacher_X]

In the United States, several million people have succumbed to an extraordinary delusion. In the 19th century, two immigrant preachers cobbled together a series of unrelated passages from the Bible to create what appears to be a consistent narrative: Jesus will return to Earth when certain preconditions have been met. The first of these was the establishment of a state of Israel. The next involves Israel's occupation of the rest of its "biblical lands" (most of the Middle East), and the rebuilding of the Third Temple on the site now occupied by the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa mosques. The legions of the antichrist will then be deployed against Israel, and their war will lead to a final showdown in the valley of Armageddon. The Jews will either burn or convert to Christianity, and the Messiah will return to Earth.

What makes the story so appealing to Christian fundamentalists is that before the big battle begins, all "true believers" (i.e. those who believe what they believe) will be lifted out of their clothes and wafted up to heaven during an event called the Rapture. Not only do the worthy get to sit at the right hand of God, but they will be able to watch, from the best seats, their political and religious opponents being devoured by boils, sores, locusts and frogs, during the seven years of Tribulation which follow.

The true believers are now seeking to bring all this about. This means staging confrontations at the old temple site (in 2000, three US Christians were deported for trying to blow up the mosques there), sponsoring Jewish settlements in the occupied territories, demanding ever more US support for Israel, and seeking to provoke a final battle with the Muslim world/Axis of Evil/United Nations/ European Union/France or whoever the legions of the antichrist turn out to be.

The believers are convinced that they will soon be rewarded for their efforts. The antichrist is apparently walking among us, in the guise of Kofi Annan, Javier Solana, Yasser Arafat or, more plausibly, Silvio Berlusconi. The Wal-Mart corporation is also a candidate (in my view a very good one), because it wants to radio-tag its stock, thereby exposing humankind to the Mark of the Beast.

By clicking on www.raptureready.com, you can discover how close you might be to flying out of your pajamas. The infidels among us should take note that the Rapture Index currently stands at 144, just one point below the critical threshold, beyond which the sky will be filled with floating nudists. Beast Government, Wild Weather and Israel are all trading at the maximum five points (the EU is debating its constitution, there was a freak hurricane in the south Atlantic, Hamas has sworn to avenge the killing of its leaders), but the second coming is currently being delayed by an unfortunate decline in drug abuse among teenagers and a weak showing by the antichrist (both of which score only two).

We can laugh at these people, but we should not dismiss them. That their beliefs are bonkers does not mean they are marginal. American pollsters believe that 15-18% of US voters belong to churches or movements which subscribe to these teachings. A survey in 1999 suggested that this figure included 33% of Republicans. The best-selling contemporary books in the US are the 12 volumes of the Left Behind series, which provide what is usually described as a "fictionalized" account of the Rapture (this, apparently, distinguishes it from the other one), with plenty of dripping details about what will happen to the rest of us. The people who believe all this don't believe it just a little; for them it is a matter of life eternal and death.

And among them are some of the most powerful men in America. John Ashcroft, the attorney general, is a true believer, so are several prominent senators and the House majority leader, Tom DeLay. Mr DeLay (who is also the co-author of the marvelously named DeLay-Doolittle Amendment, postponing campaign finance reforms) traveled to Israel last year to tell the Knesset that "there is no middle ground, no moderate position worth taking".

So here we have a major political constituency - representing much of the current president's core vote - in the most powerful nation on Earth, which is actively seeking to provoke a new world war. Its members see the invasion of Iraq as a warm-up act, as Revelation (9:14-15) maintains that four angels "which are bound in the great river Euphrates" will be released "to slay the third part of men". They batter down the doors of the White House as soon as its support for Israel wavers: when Bush asked Ariel Sharon to pull his tanks out of Jenin in 2002, he received 100,000 angry emails from Christian fundamentalists, and never mentioned the matter again.

The electoral calculation, crazy as it appears, works like this. Governments stand or fall on domestic issues. For 85% of the US electorate, the Middle East is a foreign issue, and therefore of secondary interest when they enter the polling booth. For 15% of the electorate, the Middle East is not just a domestic matter, it's a personal one: if the president fails to start a conflagration there, his core voters don't get to sit at the right hand of God. Bush, in other words, stands to lose fewer votes by encouraging Israeli aggression than he stands to lose by restraining it. He would be mad to listen to these people. He would also be mad not to.

[Whirlwind]

Preacher_X,

While you are giving credits lets not forget to give Sadam credit for a few hundred thousand men, women and children he gassed deliberately and for the $Billions he stole from aid sent to help those starving people.

Really stupid. Ahhhh.


Ohhh, you guys are just upset because Saddam did not make all of his payments on the deadly CHEMICALS that Reagan and Rumsfeld sold the "Ol feller to use on the Iranian's.

But, the US sold Saddam too much of the stuff, so he used the remainder on the poor Kurds!

As for "billions" stolen, who besides Israel has sucked up more than $100 billion out of the US treasurey?

NO ONE! (:Þ~

Whirlwind....

[Fenris Wolf]

You know, Whirlwind, you had a far more entertaining style when you were AZ.

[path]

and lets give America credit for supplying Sadam with money, weapons and training his army. yep, lets give America credit for supplying Sadam with biological weaopns against Iran and the moral support the provided him for a decade to do all of the wars and massacres he did.

then lets give America credit for all of a sudden abbandoning Sadam when America's interest of the iran war was finished. and then lets give America credit for killing over 1,000,000 Iraqi children and completely destroying Iraqs economy and then having a war with iraq.

and thats before we even go in to Americas support for the Taliban!


Hate to burst your bubble but Iraq was a soviet client state training and military hardware was russian. Iraq had vast oil revenues the US did not give them financial aid. During the Iran Iraq war the US gave some military assistance to Iraq which at that time was seen as the lesser of 2 evils, immediately following the ayatollahs' seizure of power and american hostages. The US supported the mujahadin in Afghanistan not the Taliban they came later, and again this was a cold war related decision, like the communist bloc helped the vietnamese.

While those Iraqi children were dying from lack of supplies Saddam managed to build himself 600 new residences ;)

[ddovala]

Omg. I LOVE hearing the argument "The 10000000 CHILDREN WERE KILLED BY THE US" Reminds me of that woman on the simpsons who always goes "Please! Think of the children!" Its the government that took the aid and used it for themselves. And why dont you freaking care more about your kids then yourself and give them your mcnuggets instead of devouring the entire 20 pack. And the US does not HAVE to trade with anyone. Our exports our decisions.

[boppa]

MacM
The West will win. It has nothing to do with any God. There is no such thing and this nonsense of "My God is tougher than your God" is absolute insanity.

Continue to march down this path and kiss your mother, father, brothers, sisters and any children or future generations of grandchildren, etc., good bye for they will all be dead, gone and buried as civilized nations continue to thrive.
o..k.. this isnt the most likely way to get them to come around to your way of thinking-in fact isnt it far more likely that even threatening to do such things increases the likelyhood of retaliation(let alone actually doing them as is the current usa govn position)


cosmictraveler
Either you do as we say or we will blow you up, that's basically what terrorists are saying. It is either their way or death to everyone not in lock step with them.

You're either with us or against us-- President Bush (cnn)
Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq
Min Max
9061 10918
(http://www.iraqbodycount.net/)

:confused:

[MacM]

boppa,

One must always remember it is they that threw down the lance and threatened us. Now they must live with their decision. Pun intended.

[boppa]

i dont see it that way-if anyone is doing the threatening it is the us government
and its long history of interfering in other countries affairs to the extent of helping overthrow governments and supplying weapons of mass destruction to dictators (the only ones found so far in iraq :D ) well in my books it was only a matter of time until something did happen
just wish lil johnnie hadnt got us in it-oh well elections coming up soon and he'll be gone

[MacM]

boppa,


i dont see it that way

Personally you are entitled to believe whatever suits your fancy, I really don't give a sh_t. But the idotic, lunitic freaks came over here and killed our people. They are a bunch of pussies and they are going to get their asses kicked, which suites me fine.

[boppa]

and i can see a whole bunch of people in iraq and afganistan saying exactly the same thing `a whole bunch of people came over here and killed a bunch of us so we'll return the favour'
and so on add infinitum

so you are saying that the usa isnt above that-that you arent any better than they are???

just trying to point out that a lot of people dont view your government as being all that honest(not that ours is any better lol) and view everything they say with increasing doubts about their intentions

[MacM]

boppa,

Let me suggest you mark your calender as to who started this sh_t. I'll mark my calender as to who is going to finish it. It will be a shame indeed if your mother, father, brothers, sisters, grandparents or kids get killed but it is your wish by attacking us. As long as you support that attitude you are just getting what is earned - bubba. Quit whimpering.

[boppa]

lol-i cant remember exactly when australia attacked the usa-must have missed it on cnn

however when the governments of the only two countries that supported the usa in the invasion now have serious credidibility issues and are likely to lose the next election leaving the usa by itself

`im not insane, its the rest of the world that is' springs to mind

and people who say that....
:)

[MacM]

So you aren't one of them, just an asui-peace-nick. Wait until they come over there and blow up your sh_t and get back to me. Their belief is that everyone but them has to die (including ausi's). I got news for them and you.

[boppa]

well there was this little thing in bali-i know thats not in the usa so it doesnt count

and yanks wonder why they are being attacked ???
time for the `warmongers' over there to have a good hard think about how much responsibility they have for things

:rolleyes:
im off