View Full Version : What is self-awareness?
Hermann wrote in a science thread:
"kmguru,
What is self-awareness or consciousness? We feel it, but we cannot describe it. Nobody of us can be sure that other people feel it like we do, because all corresponding signs we get from other people and the results of all corresponding psychological tests can be easily computer simulated. But if self-awareness or consciousness cannot be described or observed, it cannot be a "Digital Object" (string of bits) and therefore also not an object for DOI."
Since it has something to do with our feelings, I thought this is the best place to discuss it. I am looking for other reader's comments before I comment on it. Thanks
Chagur: You jumped in too fast while I was doing a cut and paste from one open window....and lost my place....now your turn....
Sorry about that, kmguru.
The story of my life (in and out of the sack):(
I'd have to say re. self-awareness: Waking up in the morning, looking in the mirror (something I try to avoid) and recognizing my reflection: "Yep, it's me."
dan1123
07-18-01, 07:53 PM
What is the self anyway? You can have almost any part of you cut off (including sections of your brain) and not think the part that got cut off was yourself. And even if you got up, looked in the mirror and didn't recognize yourself, you would eventually figure it out.
Any ideas?
ripleofdeath
07-21-01, 07:53 AM
a psychological or mental sign post that redirects intelegence to be intravertive while in a state of fluid computation.
:D
just a thought realy :)
groove on all :)
Bebelina
07-22-01, 08:19 PM
To be self aware is to recognize your soul in your body. :p
Just think, all these years I've just been thinking such recognitions were just wet-dreams!
Bye ...
Bebelina
07-22-01, 10:34 PM
Keep on dreaming! :p
Hermann
07-25-01, 01:19 AM
I agree with Bebelina: Self-awareness is feeling the own soul, but only for those who believe to have one. The understanding of self-awareness depends very much on the individual world-view (weltanschauung), which seems to be prior to everything.
I am still waiting for the explanations from kmguru. It will certainly reflect his world-view and this will be a matter of belief as for everyone.
My world-view: http://www.users.bigpond.com/hermann.raith
glaucon
07-25-01, 09:38 AM
Sorry all but, I have to disagree.
I do not 'feel' anything that gives me the idea of an unchanging, immaterial thing that gives me the idea of self.
Feelings are by their very nature nothing more than the brain's interpretation of physical stimuli. Emotional feelings are much more difficult to define but, we all know how incorrect they can be.
This self that we speak of certainly lies outside the realm of feelings.
On a purely material level, after 8 years of life, every single cell in the human body has been replaced through constant growth. The cells that last the longest, neuronal cells, change radically due to massive amounts of chemical transmissions. In every sense, you are a completely different person from who you were when you were born.
How is it then that we have this sense of self? I'm the ultimate sceptic, but even I know what it is that's being spoken of when we talk about self-awareness. I did my thesis on this very topic and basically, this is what I would say it is:
In Kantian terms, Space and Time are pure concepts that are required by the human brain for it to be able to function in the chaos that is our material world. Without them, we could not discretely identify things such as position, size, shape, colour, etc. Constantly being bombarded by information in the form of physical stimuli, these concepts act as filters, rendering the information into a more compact, perceivable form. This is what I believe the self to be. A necessary concept manufactured by the brain on a regular basis that enables the body to deal effectively with the world in which it finds itself. By regulating and ordering such disconnected information like images, emotions, memories and the like, the self enables us to interact and engage our world. Without it, we would be unable to see, to move, or to communicate. All very important to an organism's survival. Most important however, is the fact that it makes it possible for us to learn; by bridging the gaps in our memories (which occur every time we sleep) an apparent continuity is established that effectively helps us 'remember' what we've already gone through.
Remember: when you introspectively look 'inside', searching for that one constant thing, the self, what's the part that's doing the looking????
Any thoughts?
Hermann:
I am sorry, got distracted :
I am still waiting for the explanations from kmguru. It will certainly reflect his world-view and this will be a matter of belief as for everyone.
I will reply that in the section of Eastern Philosophy after I print out your view.
Glaucon
Remember: when you introspectively look 'inside', searching for that one constant thing, the self, what's the part that's doing the looking???? Ahhh ... the soul?????
But really, great question ... and so logical.
Hermann
07-26-01, 04:21 AM
glaucon,
Your statements in your thesis are very interesting and consequent within a materialistic view. But generally you cannot avoid basic assumptions and concepts. Time and space are just concepts and the belief that materialistic sciences can explain everything, although many things are not understood yet, is just an assumption.
Based on an other assumption, that there is a spiritual world with individual souls, I could define my view of being with 5 sentences:
1. Our brain is a huge hardware computer developed by evolution just for the purpose of survival.
2. This computer has no possibilities for loading or developing new software.
3. There is a spiritual world with individual souls having intellectual capabilities, who want to take part on the material life
4. Evolution produced a proper interface for them, because this gave a great advantage for survival
5. Now the brain serves just all sensors and actuators in the body and follows instincts, but the soul does the intellectual part with flexible thinking. E.g. during playing chess the soul is doing all strategic evaluations, because the development of a chess program was certainly not needed for survival.
The interesting thing is now, that if these 5 sentences were true, no scientist would have noticed that during research!
The materialistic view is one way, where you have to assume wonderful abilities of the material brain and a wonderful evolution, which has produced all that. I am wondering now, whether my world-view is really more speculative as the materialistic one.
I think, self-awareness is feeling the soul, but not as an unchanging item. The soul is me and my body belongs to me.
My world-view: http://home.t-online.de/home/hraith/english.htm
ripleofdeath
07-26-01, 06:01 AM
hey all :)
to test the body...?
to test the brain...?
to test the character is to test the relationship between the body and brain!
to test the soul is to test the relationship of the character to other characters :)
just a little thought form a little thought guy :)
@_@
\___/
groove on all :]
#please note i use the word brain to describe the concept of self and thus soul as in conjunction with the brain...as the machine we try to teach it to drive :D
This is a very interesting topic! And I still have to go back and read all of the posts. But it reminded me of something. I like the discussion of whether animals have a self-awareness also and I remember something in the news a few months ago about a study on elephants and how one elephant was looking in the mirror and was using his trunk trying to get something off his face that he saw in the mirror. I think that is proof that he knew it was on his own face and not just another elephant. That is too cute! But I think it proves his awareness of self. Sorry this is not really connected with the current discussions but it just popped into my head.
:-) Lythea
Self Awareness is:
Not something we are always in the State of. In fact it may be something that we can mostly NEVER be in the State of, because you cannot physically be everything you are Spiritually at any one time. BUT for the purpose of this conversation.... It would be the moment when everything you are inside your soul (if we are to assume the soul) meets your conscious mind and foillows through with your MOUTH and you feel that satisfaction that you are in complete control of everything you are expressing, however you are expressing it. I say expression to include ART, Conversation etc.
It is the ability to understand your extensions to the point where they simply flow out of you without effort. It is that perfect painting, or piano peice. It is that perfect day you spend with someone you feel love for and understand.
It is the most dissapointing thing in my life, because I do not know if I will ever understand myself enough to ever really accomplish it in full.
Lythea:
Welcome to my topic. Please do not feel sorry to comment. If you find you are going off on a tangent, you can start a new thread. But, please do not feel constrained to express your views. That is what this forum is all about.
It is possible that animals have self awareness. A friend argued with me that even plants have intelligence. He said that plants do not use us for survival the same way we use them? Look at Rose. Is the smell designed for other animals or humans that can really enjoy it and associate it to romance?
Interesting about animals and plants.......
the higher the intelligent in some ways the less self awareness exists........it makes sense. I Rose can only be a Rose......but a DOG has emotions.......my sister has a dog that is SO smart it thinks it is a Human being.......and will not accept it is a DOG....I know when I look at him.....
Hi teerum,
Welcome. Here is an experiment you can do. On a starry night, find a quiet place outside where you can see them. Remain in a postion you can relax and watch the sky. Relax and just feel using all your senses the world and the universe around you. Soon you will have a feeling of intense awareness. Email me how you felt.....
KMGURU
I have done that,,,,I know exactly what you mean, I know the feeling. It is an inspriing feeling and what you have said is important for many reasons than some may realize.
If the entire world can experience that feeling of self awareness they will reailze the common thread that runs though all of us that connects all of us. You are correct we are ultimately aware under creation.....was it Carl Sagan that said.....we are Star Stuff, but it goes beyond physical creation. I LOVE THIS TOPIC!!!
Teerum:
My first experience, that I can never forget, was after my high school. I was only 14. I was waiting to be accepted at a local college. It was summer time, and I was in the courtyard outside setting up a portable bed to sleep.
It was exhilarating...most people will think we are nuts, if we describe what we felt....
There is a poem that describes it well (Desiderata):
You are a child of the universe,
no less than the trees and the stars
and you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.
Thanks for sharing....
I can tell you that I am at times, very much at a loss for how most people I know are not completely mezmorized by the night sky as I am every time I look up.
Sometimes I think I may have been dropped here by some alien and I am hoping someday I will get back home. But reality is here on earth, and all the nonsense that goes with it.
We are SO Small............But a Large part of what is infinate......
ripleofdeath
07-29-01, 06:31 AM
hey all :)
good point bobby lee
so do you have self awareness to evaluate your selfcentred self?
now theres a confusing question :/
groove on all :)
glaucon
07-30-01, 08:25 AM
Whether or not plants are intelligent seems, to me, to be irrelevant to our discussion. Are we moving to equate intelligence with self-awareness?? I would tend to disagree with this but, if we are going to move this way, we must then discuss what it is that we mean when we use the word 'intelligence'.
In any case, the excercise of relaxed breathing while staring up at the night sky is an excellent one. It's an effective method towards removing ourselves from distractions. It has always been my experience that doing this enables me to lose my sense of self, if anything. That being the case, it would seem to me that the 'self' is strongest in the midst of a busy, stimulating environment.
Perhaps the environment even plays a creative role??
Bebelina
07-31-01, 06:44 PM
That of course animals and plants have self awareness, a consciusness. But the plants have however a very different kind of consciousness than humans and animals. Then there are certain animals that are almost plants and falls somewhere in between. The difference in the physical consciousness between different existences have to do with the difference in the physical form. But on a spiritual level, we all can connect to the consciousness of a tree, an animal, a stone, a cloud, a planet, anything. There are no limitations. But for us as physical human beings, to get conscious of your own true nature, the individual soul and it´s purpose for this particular physical existence , seems to be the hardest. :cool:
"why" is self-awareness.
:D...If that is the case, most employees in a corporation do not have it....When I ask, why are you doing this, they reply: "I do not know"...or "we have been doing this since the company was founded"...and so on....they never thought to ask themselves "Why?"....:D
ripleofdeath
08-06-01, 05:24 AM
and so we have cults that rape, murder and kill societys
heart like a callis child with a handgrenade!
:(
<i>"What is self-awareness or consciousness?"</i>
I didn't have time to read through the whole of this thread, so forgive me if I'm being redundant:
I read once that a thought cannot see its self and has only im, image, imagination through which it can be.
Self awareness is double sided.... I believe you need to be introspective, but without the power to observe and understand others, it will that more difficult to be SELF aware. I think as a species we tend to limit ourselves and our ability to be self aware, by ignoring others to much. Some of us do anyway, It is clear that by simply observing others you achiieve a greater understanding of yourself.
Now if we get in a rocket ship and look at the Earth from space......we take self awareness to another level, we reach beyond the physical world and into the reality of imagination.......the "thought" as you have mentioned Browser is to me is the door to awareness (OH what happened to the SELF?) Is there a SELF??, in awareness, or by letting it go, do we truly start to understand ourselves????
That is an interesting vista. I tip my hat to you.
When dealing with the branches and leaves of our existence, I would think it necessary to first understand the self. We would then better understand others. Awareness is, and I think you are correct here, "double-sided" when examining the surface. We have yet to discover the seed, however.
You know in a sense it does not really matter what we do, we are aware on many different levels........all the time, if I consider the times I am NOT on the top of my game, not 100%, maybe that is a sign I am Aware of a complexity that I choose to rise above at other times.
Ahh I don't know...........thanks for the reply.......
I think you do know, Teerum. Thank you for your thoughts.
Ever wonder about the terms of "We all have our days?","I'm not myself today?","Not at the top of one's game?"
It makes you aware that self recognises that it has seen days when this was not beyond it. It recognises the implications of not always being as sharp as it is capable of. We have even tried to explain it through biorhythms. Basically the body and hormones afftecting the mind and it's perceptions.
I agree wet 1.......and then some of us find ourselves becoming aware of madness............which I myself fear at times......
Kmguru
I noticed your quote, I do not know who that author is, but have you ever read Consilience by Edward Wilson? It's about the unification of knowledge, enlightenment etc......
Hi teerum:
Alvin Toffler wrote a few books whose contents are germane to the information age. It is all coming true. You can check out his books at a local library or a used bookstore.
In ancient Greece, every subject was philosophy. Then the enlightenment came, and the subjects were split into specialties. Now, we have sub-specialties within sub-specialties. So goes the course of science. Edward O. Wilson suggests that now is the time to start pushing the pendulum in the opposite direction. Neuroscience and sociobiology have brought together physics, psychology, and evolution. Can we go even further and bring all of the subjects closer together by building bridges across the sciences? Wilson claims that the answer is yes.
I practice what Wison preaches. But it is very difficult to convince people, specially upper management. But we will keep trying...
Merlijn
08-09-01, 02:30 AM
Hi everybody,
I am a bit disappointed here, for two reasons.
1. You start a discussion only favorite subject the day after I have left for holidays.
2. Why do I not read a word about the mystery of the discrepancy between the third-person and the first-person point of view?
Let me explain. When I describe an experience or sensation it will be in the third-person for someone else, but also for me: there is no actual experience of the sensation described in describing it or listening to it.
The same holds for the material description of the neural responses to a sensation. For example: when you look at the neural activity in my brain the moment I pick up my cup of coffee, you will see some activity in certain regions. Some of that regions "are about"/"are consistent with"/"coincide with"(?) my sensations related to me picking up the up. BUT this neural activity DOES NOT EQUAL my sensation!
How do the two relate?
I do have an idea, which I will keep to myself for now...
back to the original question of the thread:
To my opinion self-awareness is the third-person counterpart of the (first-person) consciousness.
For that matter: an elephant, robot, ant, ant-colony, zombie, whatever may be self-aware - but that does not necessarily guarantee that they are conscious.
Please respond.
This truly is the Capital Question of life!
~Merlijn
HMMM Merlijn:
I can appreicate that response, I will admit there are ideas there I have not considered in regards to how the body operates biologically to self awareness.
Allow me to interpet what you have asserted in my own words. I experience first person sensations, however it does not necesarilly mean I am conscious or in a state of self awareness. My third person interpetations of my first person sensations is actually an acuter state of self awareness.......is that what you have said?
Hermann
08-10-01, 03:11 AM
Merlijn,
You really raised a capital question by differentiating between self-awareness and consciousness.
Let's imagine a robot in front of a mirror: Its image analyzing capability will allow to recognize itself and we could call this "self-awareness", but the robot is certainly not conscious. But when an ape recognizes itself in a mirror, I would assume that there is something like consciousness.
The problem is, that we feel self-awareness and consciousness in first person, but any description of them in third person is poor or wrong. Self-awareness is often used as a description of consciousness, but this relates to the feeling not to objective observations (e.g. robot in front of a mirror).
Can we conclude by this, that we are unable to describe what our self-awareness and consciousness really means and therefore we are far away from the possibility to provide computers (robots) with such features?
--------
my world-outlook: http://home.t-online.de/home/hraith/english.htm
ripleofdeath
08-10-01, 05:23 AM
consciousness ...the ability to understand the self ability to alter ones surroundings!
self-awareness ... a linguisticly simplified word constructed in an attempt to bridge the gap between science and spirituality!
consciouse independent life form would be more attune to the
nature of free choice as to self actualisation in regard to affecting the enviroment and thus may come the ability to theorise on social issues :)
.........mostly........ :D
just a little thought from a little thought guy!
groove on all :)
Here is a thought...along the lines of awareness...
Are you aware that you can communicate with other humans nonverbally and nonsight? We use the five senses to collect our information because we can physically locate those senses. Do you have a sense that you can not physically locate? yet communicate with others?
Yes, I'm aware.
But it doesn't require the additional sense that you seem to be implying. Touch, taste and smell are also methods of communication.
So what is your point?
Just waiting for the other fishes to come by....
ripleofdeath
08-11-01, 03:31 AM
ouch :/
yes they are sometimes very strong and overriding of feeling but seem to lack attainable manipulation! :/
that makes it very frustrating ! :/
:D
groove on all :)
Hermann
08-11-01, 09:17 AM
kmguru,
Yes, I am aware, too - even out of reach for all five senses.
I would be very interested to hear your explanation for such phenomena.
I can offer wild speculation. It is so wild that, you have to wear camoflague...
I have been thinking, we have sonar technology. Bats, Dolphins have too. Nature has sonar and other sophisticated technology, some of which we still have not learned to duplicate like DNA, Cosmic rays etc.
Now we can communicate via wireless technology to great distances. Recently we found a specific layer of the ocean depth that carries sound waves without much degradation for thousands of miles which the whales use to communicate. So is it possible that nature already has a mechanism to communicate information which we have named Telepathy or that there is a central mind that coordinates these message transfers.
Somewhere God shows up. But I think there could be more layers between Man and God. Some are Physical and some are spiritual. Even some religions acknowledge that there is a layer of Angels...
Just a wild thought.
Hermann
08-12-01, 01:02 AM
kmguru,
Thanks - it seems that we are closer than I have expected.
There is no need to assume a personalized God, but without the dogma of materialism everything becomes much easier and more satisfying.
---------
my world-outlook: http://home.t-online.de/home/hraith/english.htm
synaesthesia
08-12-01, 01:43 PM
"There is no need to assume a personalized God, but without the dogma of materialism everything becomes much easier and more satisfying."
Yes, positing a supernatural explanation is an easy alternative to attempting to develop a coherent explanatory theory, it is even a good one if you are looking for a "just so story". Easy answers, however, tend to be useless if it is the truth that you are after.
Merlijn said:
"For that matter: an elephant, robot, ant, ant-colony, zombie, whatever may be self-aware - but that does not necessarily guarantee that they are conscious."
I'm afraid I don't understand the distinction that you are drawing between self-awareness and consciousness. Surely to be aware of onešs self presupposes some sort of consciousness.
You also mentioned that the activity of your brain is not your consciousness. You must be an unusual person. When you sustain brain damage, your mind is not affected? When you drink alcohol or take LSD you will feel nothing? Or perhaps you are confusing an epistemic dichotomy with a metaphysical one.
Merlijn
08-13-01, 05:30 AM
Hi synaesthesia,
thanks for the reply.
I'm afraid I don't understand the distinction that you are drawing between self-awareness and consciousness.
I had hoped to be a bit clear, apparently I wasn't.
By self-awareness I mean the awareness of one's own body in relation to the world. Knowing that the person looking back from behind a mirror is a reflection of you. It is exactly what the word says: being aware of yourself.
By consciousness is meant the world of your experiences.
It is like Hermann said:
Let's imagine a robot in front of a mirror: Its image analyzing capability will allow to recognize itself and we could call this "self-awareness", but the robot is certainly not conscious.
Hermann continuous:
But when an ape recognizes itself in a mirror, I would assume that there is something like consciousness.
I don't think that is necessary at all!
Well look at it this way:needless to say, nowhere in your brain there is actual music playing when you hear Queen's "Bicycle Race" and nowhere in your brain there is no actual picture in the brain when you are looking at Hieronymus Bosch' "The Garden of Delights". Yet you experience the sounds and the colours, that is part of you consciousness.
These experiences are dependent on the brain, but they are not the brain processes themselves. Here is an analogy: the brain processes are like the carrier signal and the experiences are like the message.
Hermann:
The problem is, that we feel self-awareness and consciousness in first person, but any description of them in third person is poor or wrong. Self-awareness is often used as a description of consciousness, but this relates to the feeling not to objective observations (e.g. robot in front of a mirror).
YES! That is what I meant, but the words get turned around:
==
The problem is, that we feel self-awareness and consciousness in first person, but any description of them in third person is impossible. Consciousness is often used as a description of self-awareness, but this relates to the feeling not to objective observations (e.g. robot in front of a mirror).
==
thank you!
Teerum, you too thanks for your reply. I would say that consciousness is not acuter (quantitative difference) but on a totally different level (qualitative difference) than self-awareness. This is exactly why it is impossible to give a description in words (or any other medium) of your consciousness: consciousness is of a different category than what can be expressed (linguistically).
bye for now,
~Merlijn
talking about self awareness......i want to ask about human doormat...the person who say "yes " when they mean "no"
because they dont want to hurt someone else feeling...
is that include in a self awareness passive type????
and if yes....how do you make a question or case study ...to investigate that the person is a human doormat?
thanks.....
Merlijn
03-23-02, 04:19 AM
Welcome Gliks,
however... I think that your doormat is too far off of tehe subject. Why not make a new thread under the human science dept.?
live long and prosper.
Merlijn
TruthSeeker
03-30-02, 11:33 AM
Self-awareness is what you develop when you evolute spiritually. It's not directly connected with soul, is connected with spirit.
Soul has more to do with your conscient. Is your thoughts and emotions. In Christianism, its symbol is the Tree of Conscience.
Spirit has more to do with inconscient. It's your Highter-Self, your True-Self. In Christianism, its symbol is the Tree of Life.
In your Spiritual Evolution, you struggle to eat from the Tree of Life, guarded by "angels with mighty swords". ;)
Self-Awareness is what is improved in your enlightment process. You ARE self-aware now. You can look to the mirror and say: That's me! But an improved Self-Awarenes is caused by meditation and Spiritual Evolution. You become in touch with your Spirit which has no limits. You become in touch with the Universe that is within you.
The Spiritual Evolution leads to an improved Self-Awareness and later to a point of culmination called nirvana, satori, salvation, enlightment... each culture has its own name. In this state, you are totally aware of yourself and you become the Universe. ;)
That's Self-Awareness. :)
Love,
Nelson
If there is one thing for me to agree with the bible, it is that the body is purely a temple for the "soul". I am haveing trouble finding a word to describe something that u yourself know is true without proving it to yourself, but can never proof it to another person. Any one know a word for this?
TruthSeeker
03-30-02, 11:28 PM
Faith
but isnt faith based on belief? in this aspect the viewer of course, which is u, can only have faith that i know i exist, while me myself know for sure i do. only each of us individualy know for sure without believing that we are self aware but we cannot prove it to anyone. i do not beleive that i am aware of myself, i know, but u can only believe that i am. im sure there is a word for this or possibly not do to the lack of situations that consist of this type of event. speaking of, do u know of any other similar events that have this same type of extreme concepts? i can only think of basic examples such as this one:
(this may seem reaching but im trying to describe the basic concept) one example that could be compared is if i take a box, and put a ball inside the box. now i tell u that there is a ball in the box. but u are not allowed to physicaly see this ball. u can only base your assumptions on what i have told u. (lets call your bases for assumptions a belief. and a belief of course meens to accept as real or the truth but not knowing for fact.) therefore, i know for a fact that there is a ball in the box however u cannot possible know, for a fact, unless u see it with your own eyes.
TruthSeeker
04-01-02, 05:37 PM
You are right...
I don't remember the name... I tried to use another Religion... but I don't know...
The "basic" example you described seemed to me Essential. It's not basic. It says everything...
I don't remember either... I remember have read it in Portuguese... in a book about Zen-Buddhism...
Love,
Nelson
its good to know that there is a name for it i hope u can remember it sometime. ill keep thinking though about what term represents this concept instead of thinking there not to be one at all.
thx :)
TruthSeeker
04-02-02, 09:15 PM
Aware,
See my new thread... :):
"Signs of Self-Awareness! (http://www.sciforums.com/t6600/s/thread.html)"
Love,
Nelson
Aware wrote:
I am haveing trouble finding a word to describe something that u yourself know is true without proving it to yourself, but can never proof it to another person. Any one know a word for this?
The closest word I can think of is "gnosis" which is a greek word that means 'knowledge". But it may not apply to what you are describing because it means knowledge in the sense that it is real to you, you have experienced it (as opposed to you have faith or beleive in it), so therefore if you accept this experience as proof, it wouldn't apply to my understanding of your question. But also, it comes close because gnosis means something you know is true, that you can not prove to another person, they have to experience it themselves.
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